I haven't been there this year, but last year I was often near
Coleman Dock when a morning Bainbridge-Seattle ferry would dump
commuters onto the street. The first off the ferry are the
motorcycles, and then the bikes, and then cars. About three of the 30
or so bikes were motorized.

So how many ebikes would the various ebike shops have to sell in
order to stay in business? Not everyone sells ebikes, and not every
ebike store sells just ebikes.

The 310,000,000 people in the US love cars, motorcycles, and regular
bikes. It shouldn't be that hard to sell ebikes that work. It even
shouldn't be hard to sell ebikes that barely work.

I was at Interbike as well and was very impressed by the Kalkhoff bike.  I don't
think I rode it and I don't remember the price (it's not a cheap bike, maybe it
was $2000?).  The construction and design looked very good.

The power train was interesting due to it connecting the motor to the bottom
bracket.

The motor power is 250 watts as would be typical for a European bike because of
their laws.

@andrsnj1: Out here in California I see electric bikes on the road all the time.
They're still a minor minority, of course, but there's a lot of them.  Some of
those are the scooterbikes with their redundant pedals.


- David Herron
http://visforvoltage.org

My bikes have been very reliable with the exception of the batteries themselves.

I have an led and a switch on every battery pack.  Before each ride I switch on
each battery individually, if I get a light I know that the battery has been
switched on through the Dewalt "enable" circuit.  Not being satisfied with that,
I also check my watt meter to be sure that the power is getting to the motor. 
This is a dual test for every battery pack.

There have been occasions when an Anderson connector or 2 has wiggled loose or
one of the connections to the enable circuit is broken but with my system I can
quickly run it down and make it right.  Any system with 10 batteries will
necessarily have many connections and I have twice as many as that since I have
an enable circuit and switches in my system.

I don't have an Anderson crimper, I understand that they are quite costly.  I
don't believe that having a name brand crimp tool will automatically make your
connections better than some other method as long as care is taken.  None of my
Anderson connector crimps have come apart so far.

My other quick connects to my enable circuits are 3M brand with nylon
insulators.  If there is a specific crimper for these connectors then I'm not
aware of it.  Again, with a good crimp tool, I use an Amp, and being careful, I
believe that good crimp connections can be made reliably.

Since my bike is hodge podge construction, as is every assist bike that is put
together from various parts and not from a single manufacturer who builds it for
you, it does have that appearance.  My main concern was to make everything work
well, appearance is a secondary concern.

Do you have any photos of your bike available for examination?

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@...>
wrote:
>
> No offense andrsnj1, but I've taken more than one look at your ebikes in the
photos section. There's a lot to be said for neat, well thought out
construction. Your ebikes look like science projects that were hastily put
together the night before the big fair. Now I know that you're not an EE or even
a trained electrician, and quite honestly I'm impressed with what you've been
able to accomplish despite this but this hodge podge construction would
certainly lend itself to reliability issues. Generally speaking, every extra
crimped connection is another potential failure point. With well engineered
construction, such connections are kept to a minimum. I see using multiple
Dewalt battery packs as a huge disadvantage in this regard. There's always
inherent reliability in simplicity.
>
> How many crimp lugs does your Mt. Washington ebike have? Did you hand crimp
these connections? Did you use the manufacturer's recommended crimp tool or did
you use that general purpose POS crimp tool that Radio Shack sells? This all
adds up to poor reliability and power losses even when everything seems to be
working properly.
>
> Robbie
>
>
> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "andrsnj1" <andrsnj@> wrote:
> >
> > Most of the time 50 miles is far enough for me but I have run out of battery
power on several occasions.  All it takes is a small issue with one or 2
under-performing batteries or a bad connection or any number of other issues to
cut your range to less than you thought it was.
> >
> > To everyone who happily rides along thinking they have a certain number of
watt hours, I suggest testing your batteries once in a while to see what you
really have.  You may be surprised.
> >
>

No offense andrsnj1, but I've taken more than one look at your ebikes in the
photos section. There's a lot to be said for neat, well thought out
construction. Your ebikes look like science projects that were hastily put
together the night before the big fair. Now I know that you're not an EE or even
a trained electrician, and quite honestly I'm impressed with what you've been
able to accomplish despite this but this hodge podge construction would
certainly lend itself to reliability issues. Generally speaking, every extra
crimped connection is another potential failure point. With well engineered
construction, such connections are kept to a minimum. I see using multiple
Dewalt battery packs as a huge disadvantage in this regard. There's always
inherent reliability in simplicity.

How many crimp lugs does your Mt. Washington ebike have? Did you hand crimp
these connections? Did you use the manufacturer's recommended crimp tool or did
you use that general purpose POS crimp tool that Radio Shack sells? This all
adds up to poor reliability and power losses even when everything seems to be
working properly.

Robbie


--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "andrsnj1" <andrsnj@...> wrote:
>
> Most of the time 50 miles is far enough for me but I have run out of battery
power on several occasions.  All it takes is a small issue with one or 2
under-performing batteries or a bad connection or any number of other issues to
cut your range to less than you thought it was.
>
> To everyone who happily rides along thinking they have a certain number of
watt hours, I suggest testing your batteries once in a while to see what you
really have.  You may be surprised.
>

On 11 Nov 2009 at 4:48, gerhardtdon wrote:

>
>
> Dan,

> Are you using a rear hub Crystalyte 408 motor to drive the crank?

Yeah.

> All my seies 400 motors are front wheel drive. I will have to find a
> way to modify a front hub motor to add a drive sprocket or acquire a
> rear hub motor.

I suppose the ideal way would be to drill 5 holes and mount it like the
newer disc brake systems mount. The centering would have to be
perfect, but the result would be better than what I have, because there
would be no possibility of spin-off.

> Keep me posted on your progress. I bought the aluminum and carbon fiber
> to start making a body for the delta trike. I am using Turbo CAD 3D Pro
> for the body design.

Good luck with that. I'm still using ordinary steel, because I can't afford
to screw up better materials.

-ds

Maybe there were 150,000 ebikes sold in the US last year but I doubt it.  I
would like to know where that number came from.

For Robbie to get 50 miles on his ebike by his definition means it is a 100 mile
ebike by my definition.

Most of the time 50 miles is far enough for me but I have run out of battery
power on several occasions.  All it takes is a small issue with one or 2
under-performing batteries or a bad connection or any number of other issues to
cut your range to less than you thought it was.

To everyone who happily rides along thinking they have a certain number of watt
hours, I suggest testing your batteries once in a while to see what you really
have.  You may be surprised.

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "EVsolutions" <evsolutions@...> wrote:
>
> John I really doubt anyone shy of Bent riders would even consider frequent
> rides above 75 miles on an e-bike or any upright bike. People (cannot say
> all people) because it is just a guess but I'd think most e-bikers would
> keep their daily rides below 20 miles and therefore the battery chemistries
> that exist today are fine.
>
>
>
> Drives me up the wall when people say they need a battery that can give them
> a 60 mile range and I get that a lot. When you dig deeper that 60 mile range
> is not what they need but what they want so they don't have to bother using
> a charger more than once or twice a week. Another group are apprehensive
> about using a Charger and want to use one as seldom as possible, likely a
> carry over from stories years ago about Charger fires. Last group keep
> seeing all these Long Ranges promised by businesses out to sell batteries
> and they think this is what they need without realizing to get those 60
> miles they themselves need to weigh 125 pounds and have a strong wind at
> their back on a bike that looks like a TREK Madone.
>
>
>
> joshua goldberg
>
> evsolutions@...
>
> www.evsolutions.net
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/e-motor-assist
>
> http://www.e-bents.net
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of andrsnj1
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 7:59 PM
> To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff
>
>
>
>
>
> I'd like to know where all those ebikes are. One would think that they would
> be visible at some point if they were really selling that well.
>
> I am skeptical about long range ebikes with the current battery technology,
> surprise. The only way to build a long range ebike is to load it up with
> batteries and that means it will be heavy. A heavy ebike will necessarily be
> difficult to pedal without the motor and the scale will be tipped towards
> eliminating the pedals altogether.
>
> Ebikes have a place but I don't think it's long range and high power. Ebikes
> can do around 50-75 miles range, much more than that I think most will be
> swayed to another option when a comparison is made.
>
> --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, Josh@ wrote:
> >
> > HI John,
> >
> > Well, we sold 20 units, several conversions, and repairs, as high end
> > custom equipment.
> > But, I read that NYCE Wheels sold 500 units this year.
> > Furthermore, as I buy the Worldwide reports from Frank Jamerson,
> > and Ed Benjamin, the two most knowledgeable researchers and advisors
> > of the electric bike industry, I believe that the USA will hit 170,000
> units
> > this year. A2B is doing very well, along with Currie and others hitting
> > the big box stores this year, like Best Buy, the industry is expanding.
> >
> > When we showed our E trikes at Interbike in 07, we were one of four
> companies
> > showing electric bike product, 12 companies showed in 08, and it jumped
> > to 67 some odd companies in 09.
> > The German bike show had almost half of the floor dominated by E bike
> > suppliers...
> > Nearly 1 in 7 Bicycles manufactured in the world today, is Electric.
> >
> > E bikes are happening, Organizations like the Light Electric Vehicle
> > Association,
> > and the Ultra Light Vehicle Association are going to accelerate the
> > connections,
> > and foster better and better customer service for the end user.
> >
> > Sorry to see you go backwards towards the old reliable falsely cheap
> > priced oil industry,
> > too bad to see you not on board with the appropriate sized equipment for
> > the job.
> > Maybe you could go totally Getto, and mount a horn on the end of the
> > "Muffler".
> > I got 105 miles, at 22-25 miles an hour this year, with a charge at the
> > mid point, during
> > an electric vehicle meeting in Boulder. We shall be seeing more and more
> > 100 mile plus
> > bikes out there, soon breaking the 4 hour mark, averaging 25 mph. These
> > are the days.
> >
> > A hundred million units on the road in China today, can't be wrong. With
> > more appropriately
> > priced fuel, here in the united states, we will see an exponential growth
> > in E bikes in the
> > next two years. Josh K.
> >
> > www.electric-cycle.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't believe that 150,000 ebikes are sold in the US in a year.
> > >
> > > Josh, how many ebikes did you sell last year?
> > >
> > > There is only one dealer that I know of in my area that you could buy an
> > > ebike from, Giant. I don't think he had any in stock though.
> > >
> > > In all of my riding/driving in the Northeast I have never seen another
> > > ebike other than Chas's when we met in Northeast CT for the Sandy Brook
> > > ride.
> > >
> > > I think those numbers are hype.
> > >
> > > --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@>
> > > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive
> > >> at their destination fresh, not first.
> > >>
> > >> Robbie
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las
> > >> Vegas during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new
> > >> E-bikes available and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non
> > >> profit Electric Auto Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of
> > >> electric vehicles including E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under
> > >> 200 pounds).
> > >> >
> > >> > Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
> > >> manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The
> > >> total E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to
> > >> less than 150,000 in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24
> > >> million with China being the lead user.
> > >> >
> > >> > There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of
> Bicycle
> > >> Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in
> > >> Portland Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the
> > >> exclusive U.S.A. distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is
> > >> www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike models are imported from Germany.
> > >> They use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor and a 26 volt lithium
> > >> battery. The motor is located behind the crank. The Kalkhoff model Pro
> > >> Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura hydraulic
> > >> brakes. Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.
> > >> >
> > >> > Don Gerhardt
> > >> >
> > >> > --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?
> > >> Durability? Ridability? Availability?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Thanks.
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.704 / Virus Database: 270.14.61/2497 - Release Date: 11/11/09
> 14:41:00
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

John I really doubt anyone shy of Bent riders would even consider frequent
rides above 75 miles on an e-bike or any upright bike. People (cannot say
all people) because it is just a guess but I'd think most e-bikers would
keep their daily rides below 20 miles and therefore the battery chemistries
that exist today are fine.



Drives me up the wall when people say they need a battery that can give them
a 60 mile range and I get that a lot. When you dig deeper that 60 mile range
is not what they need but what they want so they don't have to bother using
a charger more than once or twice a week. Another group are apprehensive
about using a Charger and want to use one as seldom as possible, likely a
carry over from stories years ago about Charger fires. Last group keep
seeing all these Long Ranges promised by businesses out to sell batteries
and they think this is what they need without realizing to get those 60
miles they themselves need to weigh 125 pounds and have a strong wind at
their back on a bike that looks like a TREK Madone.



joshua goldberg

evsolutions@...

www.evsolutions.net

http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/e-motor-assist

http://www.e-bents.net





-----Original Message-----
From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of andrsnj1
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 7:59 PM
To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff





I'd like to know where all those ebikes are. One would think that they would
be visible at some point if they were really selling that well.

I am skeptical about long range ebikes with the current battery technology,
surprise. The only way to build a long range ebike is to load it up with
batteries and that means it will be heavy. A heavy ebike will necessarily be
difficult to pedal without the motor and the scale will be tipped towards
eliminating the pedals altogether.

Ebikes have a place but I don't think it's long range and high power. Ebikes
can do around 50-75 miles range, much more than that I think most will be
swayed to another option when a comparison is made.

--- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, Josh@... wrote:
>
> HI John,
>
> Well, we sold 20 units, several conversions, and repairs, as high end
> custom equipment.
> But, I read that NYCE Wheels sold 500 units this year.
> Furthermore, as I buy the Worldwide reports from Frank Jamerson,
> and Ed Benjamin, the two most knowledgeable researchers and advisors
> of the electric bike industry, I believe that the USA will hit 170,000
units
> this year. A2B is doing very well, along with Currie and others hitting
> the big box stores this year, like Best Buy, the industry is expanding.
>
> When we showed our E trikes at Interbike in 07, we were one of four
companies
> showing electric bike product, 12 companies showed in 08, and it jumped
> to 67 some odd companies in 09.
> The German bike show had almost half of the floor dominated by E bike
> suppliers...
> Nearly 1 in 7 Bicycles manufactured in the world today, is Electric.
>
> E bikes are happening, Organizations like the Light Electric Vehicle
> Association,
> and the Ultra Light Vehicle Association are going to accelerate the
> connections,
> and foster better and better customer service for the end user.
>
> Sorry to see you go backwards towards the old reliable falsely cheap
> priced oil industry,
> too bad to see you not on board with the appropriate sized equipment for
> the job.
> Maybe you could go totally Getto, and mount a horn on the end of the
> "Muffler".
> I got 105 miles, at 22-25 miles an hour this year, with a charge at the
> mid point, during
> an electric vehicle meeting in Boulder. We shall be seeing more and more
> 100 mile plus
> bikes out there, soon breaking the 4 hour mark, averaging 25 mph. These
> are the days.
>
> A hundred million units on the road in China today, can't be wrong. With
> more appropriately
> priced fuel, here in the united states, we will see an exponential growth
> in E bikes in the
> next two years. Josh K.
>
> www.electric-cycle.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't believe that 150,000 ebikes are sold in the US in a year.
> >
> > Josh, how many ebikes did you sell last year?
> >
> > There is only one dealer that I know of in my area that you could buy an
> > ebike from, Giant. I don't think he had any in stock though.
> >
> > In all of my riding/driving in the Northeast I have never seen another
> > ebike other than Chas's when we met in Northeast CT for the Sandy Brook
> > ride.
> >
> > I think those numbers are hype.
> >
> > --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive
> >> at their destination fresh, not first.
> >>
> >> Robbie
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las
> >> Vegas during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new
> >> E-bikes available and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non
> >> profit Electric Auto Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of
> >> electric vehicles including E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under
> >> 200 pounds).
> >> >
> >> > Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
> >> manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The
> >> total E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to
> >> less than 150,000 in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24
> >> million with China being the lead user.
> >> >
> >> > There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of
Bicycle
> >> Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in
> >> Portland Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the
> >> exclusive U.S.A. distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is
> >> www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike models are imported from Germany.
> >> They use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor and a 26 volt lithium
> >> battery. The motor is located behind the crank. The Kalkhoff model Pro
> >> Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura hydraulic
> >> brakes. Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.
> >> >
> >> > Don Gerhardt
> >> >
> >> > --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@>
> >> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?
> >> Durability? Ridability? Availability?
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.704 / Virus Database: 270.14.61/2497 - Release Date: 11/11/09
14:41:00




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yawn..

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "andrsnj1" <andrsnj@...> wrote:
>
> I'd like to know where all those ebikes are.  One would think that they would
be visible at some point if they were really selling that well.

I've seen several around. The U.S. is a big place. 150,000 could hide like a
needle in a haystack.


>
> I am skeptical about long range ebikes with the current battery technology,
surprise.

Long range by your definition? Perhaps. Long range to most everyone else is 50
miles and that's easily doable with a battery pack that isn't so heavy that the
bike can't be meaningfully pedaled. Once again, didn't our moderator along with
you beat a fast group of lycras over a 50 mile ride in hilly terrain? With a
single speed currie uspd drive, wouldn't our moderator have had to pedal
meaningfully to make this happen? Come on already..


>  The only way to build a long range ebike is to load it up with batteries and
that means it will be heavy.  A heavy ebike will necessarily be difficult to
pedal without the motor and the scale will be tipped towards eliminating the
pedals altogether.

In all the miles you've ridden have you failed to observe that a heavier bike is
only a disadvantage when accelerating or climbing hills --- both cases where we
use the motor to assist anyway? I can pedal my 48V 20ah powered mountain bike
all day long on the flat at 18 - 20mph with no problem.

>
> Ebikes have a place but I don't think it's long range and high power.  Ebikes
can do around 50-75 miles range, much more than that I think most will be swayed
to another option when a comparison is made.

Your notion of what *most* would want is unfounded. *Most* people wouldn't be
willing to ride any further than this on any kind of bicycle no matter how much
range it has. You have tunnel vision in this regard andrsnj1..

Robbie


>
>
>
> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, Josh@ wrote:
> >
> > HI John,
> >
> > Well, we sold 20 units, several conversions, and repairs, as high end
> > custom equipment.
> > But,  I read that NYCE Wheels sold 500 units this year.
> > Furthermore, as I buy the Worldwide reports from Frank Jamerson,
> > and Ed Benjamin, the two most knowledgeable researchers and advisors
> > of the electric bike industry, I believe that the USA will hit 170,000 units
> > this year. A2B is doing very well, along with Currie and others hitting
> > the big box stores this year, like Best Buy, the industry is expanding.
> >
> > When we showed our E trikes at Interbike in 07, we were one of four
companies
> > showing electric bike product, 12 companies showed in 08, and it jumped
> > to 67 some odd companies in 09.
> > The German bike show had almost half of the floor dominated by E bike
> > suppliers...
> > Nearly 1 in 7 Bicycles manufactured in the world today, is Electric.
> >
> > E bikes are happening, Organizations like the Light Electric Vehicle
> > Association,
> > and the Ultra Light Vehicle Association are going to accelerate the
> > connections,
> > and foster better and better customer service for the end user.
> >
> > Sorry to see you go backwards towards the old reliable falsely cheap
> > priced oil industry,
> > too bad to see you not on board with the appropriate sized equipment for
> > the job.
> > Maybe you could go totally Getto, and mount a horn on the end of the
> > "Muffler".
> > I got 105 miles, at 22-25 miles an hour this year, with a charge at the
> > mid point, during
> > an electric vehicle meeting in Boulder. We shall be seeing more and more
> > 100 mile plus
> > bikes out there, soon breaking the 4 hour mark, averaging 25 mph. These
> > are the days.
> >
> > A hundred million units on the road in China today, can't be wrong. With
> > more appropriately
> > priced fuel, here in the united states, we will see an exponential growth
> > in E bikes in the
> > next two years. Josh K.
> >
> > www.electric-cycle.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  I don't believe that 150,000 ebikes are sold in the US in a year.
> > >
> > > Josh, how many ebikes did you sell last year?
> > >
> > > There is only one dealer that I know of in my area that you could buy an
> > > ebike from, Giant.  I don't think he had any in stock though.
> > >
> > > In all of my riding/driving in the Northeast I have never seen another
> > > ebike other than Chas's when we met in Northeast CT for the Sandy Brook
> > > ride.
> > >
> > > I think those numbers are hype.
> > >
> > > --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@>
> > > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive
> > >> at their destination fresh, not first.
> > >>
> > >> Robbie
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las
> > >> Vegas during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new
> > >> E-bikes available and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non
> > >> profit Electric Auto Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of
> > >> electric vehicles including E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under
> > >> 200 pounds).
> > >> >
> > >> > Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
> > >> manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The
> > >> total E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to
> > >> less than 150,000 in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24
> > >> million with China being the lead user.
> > >> >
> > >> > There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of Bicycle
> > >> Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in
> > >> Portland Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the
> > >> exclusive U.S.A. distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is
> > >> www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike models are imported from Germany.
> > >> They use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor and a 26 volt lithium
> > >> battery. The motor is located behind the crank. The Kalkhoff model Pro
> > >> Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura hydraulic
> > >> brakes. Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.
> > >> >
> > >> > Don Gerhardt
> > >> >
> > >> > --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?
> > >> Durability?  Ridability?  Availability?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Thanks.
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

I'd like to know where all those ebikes are.  One would think that they would be
visible at some point if they were really selling that well.

I am skeptical about long range ebikes with the current battery technology,
surprise.  The only way to build a long range ebike is to load it up with
batteries and that means it will be heavy.  A heavy ebike will necessarily be
difficult to pedal without the motor and the scale will be tipped towards
eliminating the pedals altogether.

Ebikes have a place but I don't think it's long range and high power.  Ebikes
can do around 50-75 miles range, much more than that I think most will be swayed
to another option when a comparison is made.



--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, Josh@... wrote:
>
> HI John,
>
> Well, we sold 20 units, several conversions, and repairs, as high end
> custom equipment.
> But,  I read that NYCE Wheels sold 500 units this year.
> Furthermore, as I buy the Worldwide reports from Frank Jamerson,
> and Ed Benjamin, the two most knowledgeable researchers and advisors
> of the electric bike industry, I believe that the USA will hit 170,000 units
> this year. A2B is doing very well, along with Currie and others hitting
> the big box stores this year, like Best Buy, the industry is expanding.
>
> When we showed our E trikes at Interbike in 07, we were one of four companies
> showing electric bike product, 12 companies showed in 08, and it jumped
> to 67 some odd companies in 09.
> The German bike show had almost half of the floor dominated by E bike
> suppliers...
> Nearly 1 in 7 Bicycles manufactured in the world today, is Electric.
>
> E bikes are happening, Organizations like the Light Electric Vehicle
> Association,
> and the Ultra Light Vehicle Association are going to accelerate the
> connections,
> and foster better and better customer service for the end user.
>
> Sorry to see you go backwards towards the old reliable falsely cheap
> priced oil industry,
> too bad to see you not on board with the appropriate sized equipment for
> the job.
> Maybe you could go totally Getto, and mount a horn on the end of the
> "Muffler".
> I got 105 miles, at 22-25 miles an hour this year, with a charge at the
> mid point, during
> an electric vehicle meeting in Boulder. We shall be seeing more and more
> 100 mile plus
> bikes out there, soon breaking the 4 hour mark, averaging 25 mph. These
> are the days.
>
> A hundred million units on the road in China today, can't be wrong. With
> more appropriately
> priced fuel, here in the united states, we will see an exponential growth
> in E bikes in the
> next two years. Josh K.
>
> www.electric-cycle.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  I don't believe that 150,000 ebikes are sold in the US in a year.
> >
> > Josh, how many ebikes did you sell last year?
> >
> > There is only one dealer that I know of in my area that you could buy an
> > ebike from, Giant.  I don't think he had any in stock though.
> >
> > In all of my riding/driving in the Northeast I have never seen another
> > ebike other than Chas's when we met in Northeast CT for the Sandy Brook
> > ride.
> >
> > I think those numbers are hype.
> >
> > --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive
> >> at their destination fresh, not first.
> >>
> >> Robbie
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las
> >> Vegas during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new
> >> E-bikes available and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non
> >> profit Electric Auto Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of
> >> electric vehicles including E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under
> >> 200 pounds).
> >> >
> >> > Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
> >> manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The
> >> total E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to
> >> less than 150,000 in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24
> >> million with China being the lead user.
> >> >
> >> > There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of Bicycle
> >> Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in
> >> Portland Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the
> >> exclusive U.S.A. distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is
> >> www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike models are imported from Germany.
> >> They use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor and a 26 volt lithium
> >> battery. The motor is located behind the crank. The Kalkhoff model Pro
> >> Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura hydraulic
> >> brakes. Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.
> >> >
> >> > Don Gerhardt
> >> >
> >> > --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@>
> >> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?
> >> Durability?  Ridability?  Availability?
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>

HI John,

Well, we sold 20 units, several conversions, and repairs, as high end
custom equipment.
But,  I read that NYCE Wheels sold 500 units this year.
Furthermore, as I buy the Worldwide reports from Frank Jamerson,
and Ed Benjamin, the two most knowledgeable researchers and advisors
of the electric bike industry, I believe that the USA will hit 170,000 units
this year. A2B is doing very well, along with Currie and others hitting
the big box stores this year, like Best Buy, the industry is expanding.

When we showed our E trikes at Interbike in 07, we were one of four companies
showing electric bike product, 12 companies showed in 08, and it jumped
to 67 some odd companies in 09.
The German bike show had almost half of the floor dominated by E bike
suppliers...
Nearly 1 in 7 Bicycles manufactured in the world today, is Electric.

E bikes are happening, Organizations like the Light Electric Vehicle
Association,
and the Ultra Light Vehicle Association are going to accelerate the
connections,
and foster better and better customer service for the end user.

Sorry to see you go backwards towards the old reliable falsely cheap
priced oil industry,
too bad to see you not on board with the appropriate sized equipment for
the job.
Maybe you could go totally Getto, and mount a horn on the end of the
"Muffler".
I got 105 miles, at 22-25 miles an hour this year, with a charge at the
mid point, during
an electric vehicle meeting in Boulder. We shall be seeing more and more
100 mile plus
bikes out there, soon breaking the 4 hour mark, averaging 25 mph. These
are the days.

A hundred million units on the road in China today, can't be wrong. With
more appropriately
priced fuel, here in the united states, we will see an exponential growth
in E bikes in the
next two years. Josh K.

www.electric-cycle.com






  I don't believe that 150,000 ebikes are sold in the US in a year.
>
> Josh, how many ebikes did you sell last year?
>
> There is only one dealer that I know of in my area that you could buy an
> ebike from, Giant.  I don't think he had any in stock though.
>
> In all of my riding/driving in the Northeast I have never seen another
> ebike other than Chas's when we met in Northeast CT for the Sandy Brook
> ride.
>
> I think those numbers are hype.
>
> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive
>> at their destination fresh, not first.
>>
>> Robbie
>>
>>
>> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las
>> Vegas during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new
>> E-bikes available and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non
>> profit Electric Auto Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of
>> electric vehicles including E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under
>> 200 pounds).
>> >
>> > Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
>> manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The
>> total E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to
>> less than 150,000 in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24
>> million with China being the lead user.
>> >
>> > There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of Bicycle
>> Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in
>> Portland Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the
>> exclusive U.S.A. distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is
>> www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike models are imported from Germany.
>> They use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor and a 26 volt lithium
>> battery. The motor is located behind the crank. The Kalkhoff model Pro
>> Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura hydraulic
>> brakes. Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.
>> >
>> > Don Gerhardt
>> >
>> > --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?
>> Durability?  Ridability?  Availability?
>> > >
>> > > Thanks.
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>
>

I'd put it close to 150,000 too.



Just last week someone posted a link to Bert at NYCeWheels where he said
last year he sold 500 of the Forza model eZee E-bikes. Seems pretty good
when one small store in NYC where e-bikes are Outlawed to sell 500 of just
one model of e-bike.



When Wal Mart buys e-bikes and e-scooters they tend to order 50,000 units
per shot.



Figure the various models under the iZIP label were a huge seller for Wal
Mart.



You're going to see awesome E-Bike sales numbers from Ontario next year
because the Idiots in the Ontario Government have declared the Vespa looking
Electric Scooters you could not pedal even with a gun to your temple to be
the same as E-Bikes which are pedal assist electric bicycles. The E-Scooter
sales are going off the charts up here with single stores selling
"thousands" per season.



Politicians worry me. I see a Cannondale Bicycle with a Hub Motor on one
side and a 160 pound Vespa like E-Scooter covered in Plastic parts beside it
and I see 2 completely different animals but our Politicians see both 2
wheelers as the same.



joshua goldberg

evsolutions@...

www.evsolutions.net

http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/e-motor-assist

http://www.e-bents.net





-----Original Message-----
From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of andrsnj1
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 4:41 PM
To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff





I don't believe that 150,000 ebikes are sold in the US in a year.

Josh, how many ebikes did you sell last year?

There is only one dealer that I know of in my area that you could buy an
ebike from, Giant. I don't think he had any in stock though.

In all of my riding/driving in the Northeast I have never seen another ebike
other than Chas's when we met in Northeast CT for the Sandy Brook ride.

I think those numbers are hype.

--- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@...> wrote:
>
> See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive at
their destination fresh, not first.
>
> Robbie
>
>
> --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las
Vegas during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new E-bikes
available and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non profit Electric
Auto Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of electric vehicles
including E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under 200 pounds).
> >
> > Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The total
E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to less than
150,000 in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24 million with China
being the lead user.
> >
> > There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of Bicycle
Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in Portland
Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the exclusive U.S.A.
distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three
E-bike models are imported from Germany. They use a 250 watt Panasonic
electric motor and a 26 volt lithium battery. The motor is located behind
the crank. The Kalkhoff model Pro Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore
XT and Magura hydraulic brakes. Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.
> >
> > Don Gerhardt
> >
> > --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?
Durability? Ridability? Availability?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> >
>



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.704 / Virus Database: 270.14.60/2496 - Release Date: 11/11/09
02:40:00




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't believe that 150,000 ebikes are sold in the US in a year.

Josh, how many ebikes did you sell last year?

There is only one dealer that I know of in my area that you could buy an ebike
from, Giant.  I don't think he had any in stock though.

In all of my riding/driving in the Northeast I have never seen another ebike
other than Chas's when we met in Northeast CT for the Sandy Brook ride.

I think those numbers are hype.

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@...>
wrote:
>
> See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive at
their destination fresh, not first.
>
> Robbie
>
>
> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las Vegas
during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new E-bikes available
and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non profit Electric Auto
Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of electric vehicles including
E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under 200 pounds).
> >
> > Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The total
E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to less than 150,000
in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24 million with China being the
lead user.
> >
> > There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of Bicycle
Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in Portland
Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the exclusive U.S.A.
distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike
models are imported from Germany. They use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor
and a 26 volt lithium battery. The motor is located behind the crank. The
Kalkhoff model Pro Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura
hydraulic brakes. Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.
> >
> > Don Gerhardt
> >
> > --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs? 
Durability?  Ridability?  Availability?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> >
>

Hi Don,

Nice information, glad to hear it. Would you post a link to your article,
or post the article here?

Thanks so much,

Josh K.
www.electric-cycle.com



  See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive at
> their destination fresh, not first.
>
> Robbie
>
>
> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@...>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las
>> Vegas during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new
>> E-bikes available and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non profit
>> Electric Auto Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of electric
>> vehicles including E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under 200
>> pounds).
>>
>> Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
>> manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The
>> total E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to
>> less than 150,000 in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24
>> million with China being the lead user.
>>
>> There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of Bicycle
>> Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in
>> Portland Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the
>> exclusive U.S.A. distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is
>> www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike models are imported from Germany. They
>> use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor and a 26 volt lithium battery.
>> The motor is located behind the crank. The Kalkhoff model Pro Connect S
>> includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura hydraulic brakes. Retail
>> prices range from $2500 to $3500.
>>
>> Don Gerhardt
>>
>> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@> wrote:
>> >
>> > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?
>> Durability?  Ridability?  Availability?
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>>
>
>
>

See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive at their
destination fresh, not first.

Robbie


--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las Vegas
during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new E-bikes available
and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non profit Electric Auto
Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of electric vehicles including
E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under 200 pounds).
>
> Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The total
E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to less than 150,000
in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24 million with China being the
lead user.
>
> There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of Bicycle
Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in Portland
Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the exclusive U.S.A.
distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike
models are imported from Germany. They use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor
and a 26 volt lithium battery. The motor is located behind the crank. The
Kalkhoff model Pro Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura
hydraulic brakes. Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.
>
> Don Gerhardt
>
> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs? 
Durability?  Ridability?  Availability?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 4:48 AM, gerhardtdon wrote:
>
>
> Dan,
> Are you using a rear hub Crystalyte 408 motor to drive the crank? All my seies
400 motors are front wheel drive. I will have to find a way to modify a front
hub motor to add a drive sprocket or acquire a rear hub motor. Keep me posted on
your progress. I bought the aluminum and carbon fiber to start making a body for
the delta trike. I am using Turbo CAD 3D Pro for the body design.
> Thanks
> Don Gerhardt
>
Using a Xtalyte motor as a crank drive has been well documented here
and on other fora. Easiest way to do this is to replace the left side
cover of a front hub motor with the right side cover of a rear hub
motor and then using a standard freewheel to drive a left side
stoker's crank, ala StokeMonkey. Another documented alternative is to
use their wheelchair motor with the stub and bolt a right side
mid-drive onto that so that the motor gets benefits from all the
gears, but that requires more work to make and change the gears on the
mid-drive.

--
Opus

Lycra Cyclists have Lance Armstrong

Recumbent Cyclists have Sam Wittingham

The Hells Angels have Sonny Barger

E-bikers have---> Ed Begley Jr.

We're totally screwed

I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las Vegas during
September 2009. My objective was to review all the new E-bikes available and to
write an article on E-bilkes for the non profit Electric Auto Assoociation
(EAA). EAA promotes all types of electric vehicles including E-bikes and light
electric vehicles (under 200 pounds).

Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike manufacture
in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The total E-bike sales in
Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to less than 150,000 in the USA. The
total world E-bike sales are 24 million with China being the lead user.

There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of Bicycle Retailer
& Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in Portland Oregon by Eric
von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the exclusive U.S.A. distributor of
Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike models are
imported from Germany. They use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor and a 26
volt lithium battery. The motor is located behind the crank. The Kalkhoff model
Pro Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura hydraulic brakes.
Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.

Don Gerhardt

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?  Durability? 
Ridability?  Availability?
>
> Thanks.
>

Dan,
Are you using a rear hub Crystalyte 408 motor to drive the crank? All my seies
400 motors are front wheel drive. I will have to find a way to modify a front
hub motor to add a drive sprocket or acquire a rear hub motor. Keep me posted on
your progress. I bought the aluminum and carbon fiber to start making a body for
the delta trike. I am using Turbo CAD 3D Pro for the body design.
Thanks
Don Gerhardt

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Sullivan" <pimann@...> wrote:
>
> On 9 Nov 2009 at 17:52, gerhardtdon wrote:
>
> > Hi Dan Sullivan,
>
> > How did you install the sprocket on the Crystalyte 408 to drive the
> > crank? I am interested in using a 2 speed Crystalyte 404/408 at 72
> > volts to drive a Nuvinci multi speed hub on my delta e-trike. I am
> > having difficulty finding an alternative light weight motor with good
> > life at 2000 watts.
>
> I just threaded the sprocket on, using the highest strength thread locker
> I could find, followed by the lock ring, making it as tight as I could
> without fearing that I would strip the threads. It seems to be holding just
> fine right now, but we'll see what happens at 72v.
>
> I don't see the need for a two-speed motor if you have all the gearing
> you need. I just try to adjust the chainring sizes so the ideal rpm of the
> motor matches my favorite cadence. Of course, I have to operate within
> a range. The smallest ring I could find to fit my hole pattern has 34
> teeth, although I understand I can dig up a 32t if I look hard enough. 34t
> was just fine for the 36v setup. To keep the same top speed (which is a
> tad too slow anyhow), I would have to go to 68t, which doesn't come to
> on fit the Sun freewheeling crank's small hole pattern. Also, this
> chainring has to be smaller than the largest chainring driving the
> rearward chain, so the derailleur doesn't hit it. I figure I can get up to
> 50t, which should boost my speed a bit and boost my power a lot.
>
> As long as the front sprocket doesn't spin off the motor threads, I
> should be fine. If it does spin off, I'll let people know. A cotter pin would
> be the next logical step. However, unless I can find (or file down) an
> extra thin lock nut and/or an extra thin sprocket, there is no room for a
> cotter pin.
>
> -ds
>

Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?  Durability? 
Ridability?  Availability?

Thanks.

It's actually not that hard to understand. A good number of the people in Europe
today are the descendants of those that could stay and follow the rules. A good
number of the people in the U.S. are the descendants of those who wouldn't put
up with such rules then or now.

Robbie


--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "EVsolutions" <evsolutions@...> wrote:
>
> You'd think that (I did too) but the Europeans/Brits have this strange need
> to obey the Law. Best I can figure is the Importers follow the 250W
> Legislation and so their customers are stuck with 250W. Everyone and his Dog
> seems to operate at 24V.
>
>
>
> joshua goldberg
>
> evsolutions@...
>
> www.evsolutions.net
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/e-motor-assist
>
> http://www.e-bents.net
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Dan Sullivan
> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 9:46 AM
> To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [power-assist] Re: Controller with a 200W limiter
>
>
>
>
>
> On 8 Nov 2009 at 11:55, andrsnj1 wrote:
>
> > According to Joshua, 200 watt assist bikes are selling well in Europe,
> > I find that difficult to imagine.
>
> It's impossible to imagine people voluntarily limiting themselves to
> 200w. It's much easier to imagine governments limiting them to 200w,
> which is what happened.
>
> -ds
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.698 / Virus Database: 270.14.58/2493 - Release Date: 11/09/09
> 14:40:00
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

You'd think that (I did too) but the Europeans/Brits have this strange need
to obey the Law. Best I can figure is the Importers follow the 250W
Legislation and so their customers are stuck with 250W. Everyone and his Dog
seems to operate at 24V.



joshua goldberg

evsolutions@...

www.evsolutions.net

http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/e-motor-assist

http://www.e-bents.net





-----Original Message-----
From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Dan Sullivan
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 9:46 AM
To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [power-assist] Re: Controller with a 200W limiter





On 8 Nov 2009 at 11:55, andrsnj1 wrote:

> According to Joshua, 200 watt assist bikes are selling well in Europe,
> I find that difficult to imagine.

It's impossible to imagine people voluntarily limiting themselves to
200w. It's much easier to imagine governments limiting them to 200w,
which is what happened.

-ds



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.698 / Virus Database: 270.14.58/2493 - Release Date: 11/09/09
14:40:00




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler made Randy Draper look absolutely normal.



joshua goldberg

evsolutions@...

www.evsolutions.net

http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/e-motor-assist

http://www.e-bents.net





-----Original Message-----
From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of andrsnj1
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:44 AM
To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [power-assist] Re: Controller with a 200W limiter





I'm just asking simple questions, and getting evasive answers. This just
re-inforces my decision to build a smoke belcher.

Who is John Schuyler?

I'm not trashing ebikes, ebikes are cool, it's the batteries that are the
problem. I will be watching and hoping for better batteries.

--- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@...> wrote:
>
> You really don't want to get into a *John Schuyler* kind of thing here by
quoting old posts from someone who sounds like they're singing a *new* tune
now do you andrsnj1? I could drudge up 100's of your old posts about your
ebike being the best in the world where now you can't do enough to trash
ebikes because you had one bad day where you finally asked more than your
Dewalt power tool battery packs could give.. LOL
>
> If you're even remotely successful with your smoke belcher, are we going
to be subjected to 100's of posts about how THIS is the way we all need to
go and how we should all drop what we're doing to follow you? Why not just
skip to the point where you're disillusioned with the smoke belcher? We can
make fun of it together right now if you do that? LOLOLOL
>
>
> Robbie
>
>
> --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "andrsnj1" <andrsnj@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Realistically it is a fool's errand to try and achieve 100% DOD. But
> > > that is how Cells are specified if you look @ any mfg. Cell Specs. In
the
> > > real world (which is what we all live in) it's not advisable or even
> > > reasonable to expect a 100% DOD from ANY rechargeable battery pack
unless
> > > you want to replace the pack on a regular basis like Killacycle does.
They
> > > expect to do this because they are trying to set world records in drag
> > > racing motorcycles. The normal customer realizes this is something
that is
> > > pretty stupid to try and achieve. I never said we recommended trying
to
> > > achieve 100% DOD - never once! In fact it's obvious by incorporating
our
> > > safety features, be it a Low Voltage Cutoff board or a full-featured
BPM, we
> > > certainly are not claiming anything of the sort.
> >
> > Here is a quote from your post on November 8
> >
> > A LiFeBATT battery pack or packs can go 1,500 cycles 1C 100% DOD right
now.
> > Equipped with a BPM (Battery Protection Module) when multiple packs are
> > used, this is certainly possible at the moment, and there is no reason
to
> > treat your packs like they are heirlooms. Proper charging is all you
need
> > to do.
> >
> >
> >
> > Don Harmon
> >
> > What am I missing?
> >
>



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.698 / Virus Database: 270.14.58/2493 - Release Date: 11/09/09
14:40:00




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The point is that just about everyone contradicts themselves. It's no great feat
to search out older posts from yesterday, last week, or last year to prove it.
In fact, in John Schuyler's case, it was the first sign of undiagnosed madness.
LOL

Robbie


--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Sullivan" <pimann@...> wrote:
>
> On 10 Nov 2009 at 1:48, robbiehatfield wrote:
>
> > You really don't want to get into a *John Schuyler* kind of thing here
> > by quoting old posts from someone who sounds like they're singing a
> > *new* tune now do you andrsnj1? I could drudge up 100's of your old
> > posts about your ebike being the best in the world where now you can't
> > do enough to trash ebikes because you had one bad day where you
> > finally asked more than your Dewalt power tool battery packs could
> > give.. LOL
>
> On Novermber 9, a post from November 8 was an old post? Seriously?
>
> -ds
>
> > --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "andrsnj1" <andrsnj@> wrote:
>
> > > Here is a quote from your post on November 8
> > >
> > > A LiFeBATT battery pack or packs can go 1,500 cycles 1C 100% DOD right
now.
> > > Equipped with a BPM (Battery Protection Module) when multiple packs are
> > > used, this is certainly possible at the moment, and there is no reason to
> > > treat your packs like they are heirlooms. Proper charging is all you need
> > > to do.
>

John Schuyler was a guy who loved to spend all day searching archives to find
contradictary posts made by current enemies that he could throw back in their
face in a current argument. He was rather good at it which implied that he had
an abundance of time on his hands but a lack of imagination.

Read the replie I just gave you. It's the bottom line basics of what you already
know you'd have to do to get the range you're looking for.

You're what I would consider a *power user* and power users are always
frustrated by the state of the art.

Robbie


--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "andrsnj1" <andrsnj@...> wrote:
>
> I'm just asking simple questions, and getting evasive answers.  This just
re-inforces my decision to build a smoke belcher.
>
> Who is John Schuyler?
>
> I'm not trashing ebikes, ebikes are cool, it's the batteries that are the
problem.  I will be watching and hoping for better batteries.
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@> wrote:
> >
> > You really don't want to get into a *John Schuyler* kind of thing here by
quoting old posts from someone who sounds like they're singing a *new* tune now
do you andrsnj1? I could drudge up 100's of your old posts about your ebike
being the best in the world where now you can't do enough to trash ebikes
because you had one bad day where you finally asked more than your Dewalt power
tool battery packs could give.. LOL
> >
> > If you're even remotely successful with your smoke belcher, are we going to
be subjected to 100's of posts about how THIS is the way we all need to go and
how we should all drop what we're doing to follow you? Why not just skip to the
point where you're disillusioned with the smoke belcher? We can make fun of it
together right now if you do that? LOLOLOL
> >
> >
> > Robbie
> >
> >
> > --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "andrsnj1" <andrsnj@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   Realistically it is a fool's errand to try and achieve 100% DOD.  But
> > > > that is how Cells are specified if you look @ any mfg. Cell Specs.  In
the
> > > > real world (which is what we all live in) it's not advisable or even
> > > > reasonable to expect a 100% DOD from ANY rechargeable battery pack
unless
> > > > you want to replace the pack on a regular basis like Killacycle does. 
They
> > > > expect to do this because they are trying to set world records in drag
> > > > racing motorcycles.  The normal customer realizes this is something that
is
> > > > pretty stupid to try and achieve.  I never said we recommended trying to
> > > > achieve 100% DOD - never once!  In fact it's obvious by incorporating
our
> > > > safety features, be it a Low Voltage Cutoff board or a full-featured
BPM, we
> > > > certainly are not claiming anything of the sort.
> > >
> > > Here is a quote from your post on November 8
> > >
> > > A LiFeBATT battery pack or packs can go 1,500 cycles 1C 100% DOD right
now.
> > > Equipped with a BPM (Battery Protection Module) when multiple packs are
> > > used, this is certainly possible at the moment, and there is no reason to
> > > treat your packs like they are heirlooms. Proper charging is all you need
> > > to do.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Don Harmon
> > >
> > > What am I missing?
> > >
> >
>

On 10 Nov 2009 at 1:48, robbiehatfield wrote:

> You really don't want to get into a *John Schuyler* kind of thing here
> by quoting old posts from someone who sounds like they're singing a
> *new* tune now do you andrsnj1? I could drudge up 100's of your old
> posts about your ebike being the best in the world where now you can't
> do enough to trash ebikes because you had one bad day where you
> finally asked more than your Dewalt power tool battery packs could
> give.. LOL

On Novermber 9, a post from November 8 was an old post? Seriously?

-ds

> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "andrsnj1" <andrsnj@...> wrote:

> > Here is a quote from your post on November 8
> >
> > A LiFeBATT battery pack or packs can go 1,500 cycles 1C 100% DOD right now.
> > Equipped with a BPM (Battery Protection Module) when multiple packs are
> > used, this is certainly possible at the moment, and there is no reason to
> > treat your packs like they are heirlooms. Proper charging is all you need
> > to do.

Select a battery pack that can satisfy your longest anticipated range with a DOD
down to 40% *meaning you've used 60% of the rated capacity*. By doing this, your
discharges will be much shallower on the *typical* shorter ride. I believe you
said you got 610wh out of your 33V battery pack when you came up short getting
*only* 73 miles out of 75 or whatever. This means you rode at 8.4wh per mile.
You needed 626wh to complete this ride at this rate of consumption. Divide 626wh
by 60% and we get 1044.5wh. Round it down to 1000wh. You would need a 33V 1000wh
battery pack to do 75 mile worry-free rides. Because 33V is on the low side for
an ebike operating voltage, you would need a 30ah battery pack. If you were to
run at say 48V, you could probably squeeze by with a 20ah battery pack as this
would give you 960wh. At 72V, you would only need a 14ah battery pack. I'm sorry
andrsnj1, but this is where we are with battery technology. I'm sure that there
are real nobel peace prize worthy scientists working feverously in their labs to
the wee hours of the night trying to improve upon this so that your ebike can be
10 lbs lighter. Until then, you'll need to blow smoke. LOL

Robbie


--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "andrsnj1" <andrsnj@...> wrote:
>
> > It was not you but Joshua who said that 100% discharge could be done with
LiFePO4 packs, and andrsnj1 who said that it should be standard operating
procedure.
> >
> > It is not depth of discharge that matters, but watt-hours per pound and
cycle life.  If decreasing watt-hours per pound slightly yields much better
cycle life, then that's the correct use of the battery.
> >
> > Chalo
> >
>
> Ok.  Then what is the maximum amp hours that I can get out of your "10 ah"
cell/pack with your low voltage cut-off and your cat herder while discharging to
this level every cycle for 1500 cycles?
>
> I'll stop talking about percent dod since I don't appear to be making any
progress on that subject.  I just want to know the bottom line what I can expect
from any battery pack that I would consider buying.
>

On 9 Nov 2009 at 17:52, gerhardtdon wrote:

> Hi Dan Sullivan,

> How did you install the sprocket on the Crystalyte 408 to drive the
> crank? I am interested in using a 2 speed Crystalyte 404/408 at 72
> volts to drive a Nuvinci multi speed hub on my delta e-trike. I am
> having difficulty finding an alternative light weight motor with good
> life at 2000 watts.

I just threaded the sprocket on, using the highest strength thread locker
I could find, followed by the lock ring, making it as tight as I could
without fearing that I would strip the threads. It seems to be holding just
fine right now, but we'll see what happens at 72v.

I don't see the need for a two-speed motor if you have all the gearing
you need. I just try to adjust the chainring sizes so the ideal rpm of the
motor matches my favorite cadence. Of course, I have to operate within
a range. The smallest ring I could find to fit my hole pattern has 34
teeth, although I understand I can dig up a 32t if I look hard enough. 34t
was just fine for the 36v setup. To keep the same top speed (which is a
tad too slow anyhow), I would have to go to 68t, which doesn't come to
on fit the Sun freewheeling crank's small hole pattern. Also, this
chainring has to be smaller than the largest chainring driving the
rearward chain, so the derailleur doesn't hit it. I figure I can get up to
50t, which should boost my speed a bit and boost my power a lot.

As long as the front sprocket doesn't spin off the motor threads, I
should be fine. If it does spin off, I'll let people know. A cotter pin would
be the next logical step. However, unless I can find (or file down) an
extra thin lock nut and/or an extra thin sprocket, there is no room for a
cotter pin.

-ds

On 8 Nov 2009 at 11:55, andrsnj1 wrote:

> According to Joshua, 200 watt assist bikes are selling well in Europe,
> I find that difficult to imagine.

It's impossible to imagine people voluntarily limiting themselves to
200w. It's much easier to imagine governments limiting them to 200w,
which is what happened.

-ds

Dear people, I have thought a little improvement for my SLA batteries: Connect
in parallel with them a large-capacity electrolytic capacitor, let's say 5000 uf
x 80 V, the purpose is to improve the peak current to the motor, What do you
think?

I'm just asking simple questions, and getting evasive answers.  This just
re-inforces my decision to build a smoke belcher.

Who is John Schuyler?

I'm not trashing ebikes, ebikes are cool, it's the batteries that are the
problem.  I will be watching and hoping for better batteries.





--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@...>
wrote:
>
> You really don't want to get into a *John Schuyler* kind of thing here by
quoting old posts from someone who sounds like they're singing a *new* tune now
do you andrsnj1? I could drudge up 100's of your old posts about your ebike
being the best in the world where now you can't do enough to trash ebikes
because you had one bad day where you finally asked more than your Dewalt power
tool battery packs could give.. LOL
>
> If you're even remotely successful with your smoke belcher, are we going to be
subjected to 100's of posts about how THIS is the way we all need to go and how
we should all drop what we're doing to follow you? Why not just skip to the
point where you're disillusioned with the smoke belcher? We can make fun of it
together right now if you do that? LOLOLOL
>
>
> Robbie
>
>
> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "andrsnj1" <andrsnj@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >   Realistically it is a fool's errand to try and achieve 100% DOD.  But
> > > that is how Cells are specified if you look @ any mfg. Cell Specs.  In the
> > > real world (which is what we all live in) it's not advisable or even
> > > reasonable to expect a 100% DOD from ANY rechargeable battery pack unless
> > > you want to replace the pack on a regular basis like Killacycle does. 
They
> > > expect to do this because they are trying to set world records in drag
> > > racing motorcycles.  The normal customer realizes this is something that
is
> > > pretty stupid to try and achieve.  I never said we recommended trying to
> > > achieve 100% DOD - never once!  In fact it's obvious by incorporating our
> > > safety features, be it a Low Voltage Cutoff board or a full-featured BPM,
we
> > > certainly are not claiming anything of the sort.
> >
> > Here is a quote from your post on November 8
> >
> > A LiFeBATT battery pack or packs can go 1,500 cycles 1C 100% DOD right now.
> > Equipped with a BPM (Battery Protection Module) when multiple packs are
> > used, this is certainly possible at the moment, and there is no reason to
> > treat your packs like they are heirlooms. Proper charging is all you need
> > to do.
> >
> >
> >
> > Don Harmon
> >
> > What am I missing?
> >
>

You really don't want to get into a *John Schuyler* kind of thing here by
quoting old posts from someone who sounds like they're singing a *new* tune now
do you andrsnj1? I could drudge up 100's of your old posts about your ebike
being the best in the world where now you can't do enough to trash ebikes
because you had one bad day where you finally asked more than your Dewalt power
tool battery packs could give.. LOL

If you're even remotely successful with your smoke belcher, are we going to be
subjected to 100's of posts about how THIS is the way we all need to go and how
we should all drop what we're doing to follow you? Why not just skip to the
point where you're disillusioned with the smoke belcher? We can make fun of it
together right now if you do that? LOLOLOL


Robbie


--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "andrsnj1" <andrsnj@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>   Realistically it is a fool's errand to try and achieve 100% DOD.  But
> > that is how Cells are specified if you look @ any mfg. Cell Specs.  In the
> > real world (which is what we all live in) it's not advisable or even
> > reasonable to expect a 100% DOD from ANY rechargeable battery pack unless
> > you want to replace the pack on a regular basis like Killacycle does.  They
> > expect to do this because they are trying to set world records in drag
> > racing motorcycles.  The normal customer realizes this is something that is
> > pretty stupid to try and achieve.  I never said we recommended trying to
> > achieve 100% DOD - never once!  In fact it's obvious by incorporating our
> > safety features, be it a Low Voltage Cutoff board or a full-featured BPM, we
> > certainly are not claiming anything of the sort.
>
> Here is a quote from your post on November 8
>
> A LiFeBATT battery pack or packs can go 1,500 cycles 1C 100% DOD right now.
> Equipped with a BPM (Battery Protection Module) when multiple packs are
> used, this is certainly possible at the moment, and there is no reason to
> treat your packs like they are heirlooms. Proper charging is all you need
> to do.
>
>
>
> Don Harmon
>
> What am I missing?
>