Well I'm not Suicidal since I figure God put me on this Earth to punish
everyone, as for being Crazy----well maybe but I'm not alone, just look at
all the people who believed what Obama promised them to get elected.



IF an e-bike was manufactured in its entirety in the U.S. by a company like
G.M. we'd have a $30,000.00 e-bike prone to factory recalls because the
wheels would keep falling off.



The people who know best what is needed are e-bikers and I still believe
(this is probably under the crazy dept) that if we all merged into one giant
Open Source Online Cooperative we could design and build a quality e-bike
for the masses. We would not need Mass Advertising if there were enough of
us buying the Model we designed as it would come under word of mouth
Advertising till the Bike Shops picked it up.



We would have to restrict Membership to weed out Members of Endless-Sphere
so that we don't end up with an E-Bike that you need to wear an Asbestos
Suit and Body Armor to ride in case the braking Chute failed to deploy and
allowed you to stop from your 100 mph ride to the Seven-Eleven.





joshua goldberg

evsolutions@...

www.evsolutions.net

http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/e-motor-assist

http://www.e-bents.net





-----Original Message-----
From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Don Harmon
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 4:06 PM
To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff





Until a major "player" gets into the act and builds a great quality E-bike
and then promotes it with a great advertising campaign E-bikes will be
forever the domain of cheap Crap. Even when a small dedicated group here
decides to design and build a quality E-bike, they have to go to Asia
(hopefully Taiwan) but likely China in order to have it made. Even if they
tightly control the specs. and oversee every shipment from the overseas
factory they still cannot make a decent profit because people (the great
unwashed masses) always go for the lowest price first on anything they don't
already have a great affinity for. Face it most of them haven't even heard
of an E-bike before.

This is the reason you will NEVER see a major market develop here in the
U.S. for a quality made E-bike. I don't care if they give away better
batteries - nobody can profit from this business model today. That is why I
don't believe it can happen until we can get people to appreciate quality
over cheap prices. Good luck. Until then, anyone thinking of getting into
this business is plain crazy or possibly suicidal ?

Wishing it will happen won't make it happen folks!

Don Harmon

From: power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
[mailto:power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of EVsolutions
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:40 PM
To: power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff

Only thing that has prevented e-bikes from selling in the millions in the
USA is that no company in the USA makes an e-bike and has the money to
properly advertise it so the heaving masses know that their e-bike exists
and what it can do for them in their lives.

Up here in Canada we have this 1,000 store outfit called Canadian Tire Store
that started selling and advertising this really crappy e-bike made in China
about 3 years ago and they generated enough sales to come in with 5 models
the following year. They ran 30 second TV commercials too. People told me
that till they saw those TV Commercials they had never heard of e-bikes.

There was a bit of a fallout too because while it was wonderful we now had
TV Commercials which generated gobs of interest the Canadian Tire line of
e-bikes kinda sucked as far as what a good e-bike should be and as a Huge
chain of stores they kept dropping their prices far below what a Bike Shop
could afford to sell their e-bikes for and still make enough profit to
afford a cup of Coffee. So a lot of Bike Shops got turned off having to
compete with the BIG chain stores.

An example was the Schwinn iZIP e-bikes. Canadian Tire had them for $799.00
and Bike Shops seeing them selling so well started stocking the same Models
and matched the $799.00 price. Then Canadian Tire dropped the price to
$349.00 and that was lower than what the Bike Shops paid Wholesale and they
panicked. So the Bike Shops took a beating and not wanting to have it
repeated stopped selling e-bikes.

Now we have Costco, Wal Mart, Canadian Tire, Sears, Home Hardware and
smaller Chain stores selling e-bikes. Hell we even had Grocery Stores
selling e-bikes. But regular Bike Shops cannot compete on price and they
cannot afford to Advertise when you get these Big Chains running the show.

I have mixed feelings about all this because while on one hand we (at least
up here) are now aware e-bikes exist and you can buy one almost everywhere
but the downside is what is being offered to the masses is utter crap which
reflects badly on manufacturers who are producing much better motor systems
which are being ignored.

Some people have realized what they bought was crap and have gone off
looking for something better which is good but the majority of people will
realize they bought crap and leave the e-bike to rust in the garage and
assume there isn't anything better out there and these people may even use
their bad experiences to persuade others to stay clear of e-bikes so they
don't repeat their mistake.

It is too one sided re: if all people see are crappy e-bikes they won't know
something better exists unless the manufacturers or Dealers can Advertise
they have a better answer and no one on that side of the fence is doing that
kind of Advertising.

We need something like Honda to come up with a quality e-bike and have the
budget to promote it in the popular media otherwise we're screwed.

joshua goldberg

evsolutions@ <mailto:evsolutions%40rogers.com> rogers.com
<mailto:evsolutions%40rogers.com>

www.evsolutions.net

http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/e-motor-assist>
yahoo.com/groups/e-motor-assist

http://www.e- <http://www.e-bents.net> bents.net

-----Original Message-----
From: power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
<mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
] On
Behalf Of Michael Brian Bentley
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 12:28 PM
To: power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
<mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff

I haven't been there this year, but last year I was often near
Coleman Dock when a morning Bainbridge-Seattle ferry would dump
commuters onto the street. The first off the ferry are the
motorcycles, and then the bikes, and then cars. About three of the 30
or so bikes were motorized.

So how many ebikes would the various ebike shops have to sell in
order to stay in business? Not everyone sells ebikes, and not every
ebike store sells just ebikes.

The 310,000,000 people in the US love cars, motorcycles, and regular
bikes. It shouldn't be that hard to sell ebikes that work. It even
shouldn't be hard to sell ebikes that barely work.

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.707 / Virus Database: 270.14.61/2498 - Release Date: 11/12/09
02:38:00

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.707 / Virus Database: 270.14.61/2498 - Release Date: 11/12/09
02:38:00




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think a good eBike will sell well here, to the right customers. I'd
have different SKUs for different territories, the hill climbing
ebike would be sold in Seattle while the flat terrain one would be
sold in Chicago. You sell 'em as a practical commuter/grocery vehicle
("with a touch of exercise!"), that way they don't have to handle
long distances on a single charge. The price point has to be well
under US$1000, and I'd prefer it to be US$500 or less. It needs to
have baskets and bags already to go.

The really lovely ebikes are all over $1000 and are a much harder
sell. Not in volume, says I, in the US.

If you are the mfr, you have to engineer your distribution and sales
networks however you see fit. Don't screw indie stores by switching
your sales to big box stores with the same model. Sell a different
model through the big box stores.

As I said - This is the reason you will NEVER see a major market develop
here in the U.S. for a quality made E-bike.



Don



From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of andrsnj1
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 4:24 PM
To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff





The first thing that needs to be done is to define the market, who would
want an ebike?

Of all the people I have ridden with which includes hundreds on each of
several multi day trips in various places, adding up to over a thousand
riders in addition to the group rides I have been doing, few have expressed
any interest in owning one.

I have had many bikers tell me that they would never consider owning one and
many more who barely tolerate them.

Pretty much all of these people are riding bicycles for the physical
benefits so that group doesn't seem to be interested.

Very few people use bicycles for transportation around here. If this is the
market for assist bikes then it doesn't exist in this area as far as I can
see.

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
, "Don Harmon" <don@...> wrote:
>
> Until a major "player" gets into the act and builds a great quality E-bike
> and then promotes it with a great advertising campaign E-bikes will be
> forever the domain of cheap Crap. Even when a small dedicated group here
> decides to design and build a quality E-bike, they have to go to Asia
> (hopefully Taiwan) but likely China in order to have it made. Even if they
> tightly control the specs. and oversee every shipment from the overseas
> factory they still cannot make a decent profit because people (the great
> unwashed masses) always go for the lowest price first on anything they
don't
> already have a great affinity for. Face it most of them haven't even heard
> of an E-bike before.
>
>
>
> This is the reason you will NEVER see a major market develop here in the
> U.S. for a quality made E-bike. I don't care if they give away better
> batteries - nobody can profit from this business model today. That is why
I
> don't believe it can happen until we can get people to appreciate quality
> over cheap prices. Good luck. Until then, anyone thinking of getting into
> this business is plain crazy or possibly suicidal ?
>
>
>
> Wishing it will happen won't make it happen folks!
>
>
>
> Don Harmon
>
>
>
> From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
] On
> Behalf Of EVsolutions
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:40 PM
> To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff
>
>
>
>
>
> Only thing that has prevented e-bikes from selling in the millions in the
> USA is that no company in the USA makes an e-bike and has the money to
> properly advertise it so the heaving masses know that their e-bike exists
> and what it can do for them in their lives.
>
> Up here in Canada we have this 1,000 store outfit called Canadian Tire
Store
> that started selling and advertising this really crappy e-bike made in
China
> about 3 years ago and they generated enough sales to come in with 5 models
> the following year. They ran 30 second TV commercials too. People told me
> that till they saw those TV Commercials they had never heard of e-bikes.
>
> There was a bit of a fallout too because while it was wonderful we now had
> TV Commercials which generated gobs of interest the Canadian Tire line of
> e-bikes kinda sucked as far as what a good e-bike should be and as a Huge
> chain of stores they kept dropping their prices far below what a Bike Shop
> could afford to sell their e-bikes for and still make enough profit to
> afford a cup of Coffee. So a lot of Bike Shops got turned off having to
> compete with the BIG chain stores.
>
> An example was the Schwinn iZIP e-bikes. Canadian Tire had them for
$799.00
> and Bike Shops seeing them selling so well started stocking the same
Models
> and matched the $799.00 price. Then Canadian Tire dropped the price to
> $349.00 and that was lower than what the Bike Shops paid Wholesale and
they
> panicked. So the Bike Shops took a beating and not wanting to have it
> repeated stopped selling e-bikes.
>
> Now we have Costco, Wal Mart, Canadian Tire, Sears, Home Hardware and
> smaller Chain stores selling e-bikes. Hell we even had Grocery Stores
> selling e-bikes. But regular Bike Shops cannot compete on price and they
> cannot afford to Advertise when you get these Big Chains running the show.
>
> I have mixed feelings about all this because while on one hand we (at
least
> up here) are now aware e-bikes exist and you can buy one almost everywhere
> but the downside is what is being offered to the masses is utter crap
which
> reflects badly on manufacturers who are producing much better motor
systems
> which are being ignored.
>
> Some people have realized what they bought was crap and have gone off
> looking for something better which is good but the majority of people will
> realize they bought crap and leave the e-bike to rust in the garage and
> assume there isn't anything better out there and these people may even use
> their bad experiences to persuade others to stay clear of e-bikes so they
> don't repeat their mistake.
>
> It is too one sided re: if all people see are crappy e-bikes they won't
know
> something better exists unless the manufacturers or Dealers can Advertise
> they have a better answer and no one on that side of the fence is doing
that
> kind of Advertising.
>
> We need something like Honda to come up with a quality e-bike and have the
> budget to promote it in the popular media otherwise we're screwed.
>
> joshua goldberg
>
> evsolutions@... <mailto:evsolutions%40rogers.com>
>
> www.evsolutions.net
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/e-motor-assist
>
> http://www.e-bents.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
> ] On
> Behalf Of Michael Brian Bentley
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 12:28 PM
> To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff
>
> I haven't been there this year, but last year I was often near
> Coleman Dock when a morning Bainbridge-Seattle ferry would dump
> commuters onto the street. The first off the ferry are the
> motorcycles, and then the bikes, and then cars. About three of the 30
> or so bikes were motorized.
>
> So how many ebikes would the various ebike shops have to sell in
> order to stay in business? Not everyone sells ebikes, and not every
> ebike store sells just ebikes.
>
> The 310,000,000 people in the US love cars, motorcycles, and regular
> bikes. It shouldn't be that hard to sell ebikes that work. It even
> shouldn't be hard to sell ebikes that barely work.
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.707 / Virus Database: 270.14.61/2498 - Release Date: 11/12/09
> 02:38:00
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The first thing that needs to be done is to define the market, who would want an
ebike?

Of all the people I have ridden with which includes hundreds on each of several
multi day trips in various places, adding up to over a thousand riders in
addition to the group rides I have been doing, few have expressed any interest
in owning one.

I have had many bikers tell me that they would never consider owning one and
many more who barely tolerate them.

Pretty much all of these people are riding bicycles for the physical benefits so
that group doesn't seem to be interested.

Very few people use bicycles for transportation around here.  If this is the
market for assist bikes then it doesn't exist in this area as far as I can see.

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "Don Harmon" <don@...> wrote:
>
> Until a major "player" gets into the act and builds a great quality E-bike
> and then promotes it with a great advertising campaign E-bikes will be
> forever the domain of cheap Crap.  Even when a small dedicated group here
> decides to design and build a quality E-bike, they have to go to Asia
> (hopefully Taiwan) but likely China in order to have it made.  Even if they
> tightly control the specs. and oversee every shipment from the overseas
> factory they still cannot make a decent profit because people (the great
> unwashed masses) always go for the lowest price first on anything they don't
> already have a great affinity for.  Face it most of them haven't even heard
> of an E-bike before.
>
>
>
> This is the reason you will NEVER see a major market develop here in the
> U.S. for a quality made E-bike.  I don't care if they give away better
> batteries - nobody can profit from this business model today.  That is why I
> don't believe it can happen until we can get  people to appreciate quality
> over cheap prices.  Good luck.  Until then, anyone thinking of getting into
> this business is plain crazy or possibly suicidal ?
>
>
>
> Wishing it will happen won't make it happen folks!
>
>
>
> Don Harmon
>
>
>
> From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of EVsolutions
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:40 PM
> To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff
>
>
>
>
>
> Only thing that has prevented e-bikes from selling in the millions in the
> USA is that no company in the USA makes an e-bike and has the money to
> properly advertise it so the heaving masses know that their e-bike exists
> and what it can do for them in their lives.
>
> Up here in Canada we have this 1,000 store outfit called Canadian Tire Store
> that started selling and advertising this really crappy e-bike made in China
> about 3 years ago and they generated enough sales to come in with 5 models
> the following year. They ran 30 second TV commercials too. People told me
> that till they saw those TV Commercials they had never heard of e-bikes.
>
> There was a bit of a fallout too because while it was wonderful we now had
> TV Commercials which generated gobs of interest the Canadian Tire line of
> e-bikes kinda sucked as far as what a good e-bike should be and as a Huge
> chain of stores they kept dropping their prices far below what a Bike Shop
> could afford to sell their e-bikes for and still make enough profit to
> afford a cup of Coffee. So a lot of Bike Shops got turned off having to
> compete with the BIG chain stores.
>
> An example was the Schwinn iZIP e-bikes. Canadian Tire had them for $799.00
> and Bike Shops seeing them selling so well started stocking the same Models
> and matched the $799.00 price. Then Canadian Tire dropped the price to
> $349.00 and that was lower than what the Bike Shops paid Wholesale and they
> panicked. So the Bike Shops took a beating and not wanting to have it
> repeated stopped selling e-bikes.
>
> Now we have Costco, Wal Mart, Canadian Tire, Sears, Home Hardware and
> smaller Chain stores selling e-bikes. Hell we even had Grocery Stores
> selling e-bikes. But regular Bike Shops cannot compete on price and they
> cannot afford to Advertise when you get these Big Chains running the show.
>
> I have mixed feelings about all this because while on one hand we (at least
> up here) are now aware e-bikes exist and you can buy one almost everywhere
> but the downside is what is being offered to the masses is utter crap which
> reflects badly on manufacturers who are producing much better motor systems
> which are being ignored.
>
> Some people have realized what they bought was crap and have gone off
> looking for something better which is good but the majority of people will
> realize they bought crap and leave the e-bike to rust in the garage and
> assume there isn't anything better out there and these people may even use
> their bad experiences to persuade others to stay clear of e-bikes so they
> don't repeat their mistake.
>
> It is too one sided re: if all people see are crappy e-bikes they won't know
> something better exists unless the manufacturers or Dealers can Advertise
> they have a better answer and no one on that side of the fence is doing that
> kind of Advertising.
>
> We need something like Honda to come up with a quality e-bike and have the
> budget to promote it in the popular media otherwise we're screwed.
>
> joshua goldberg
>
> evsolutions@... <mailto:evsolutions%40rogers.com>
>
> www.evsolutions.net
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/e-motor-assist
>
> http://www.e-bents.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
> ] On
> Behalf Of Michael Brian Bentley
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 12:28 PM
> To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff
>
> I haven't been there this year, but last year I was often near
> Coleman Dock when a morning Bainbridge-Seattle ferry would dump
> commuters onto the street. The first off the ferry are the
> motorcycles, and then the bikes, and then cars. About three of the 30
> or so bikes were motorized.
>
> So how many ebikes would the various ebike shops have to sell in
> order to stay in business? Not everyone sells ebikes, and not every
> ebike store sells just ebikes.
>
> The 310,000,000 people in the US love cars, motorcycles, and regular
> bikes. It shouldn't be that hard to sell ebikes that work. It even
> shouldn't be hard to sell ebikes that barely work.
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.707 / Virus Database: 270.14.61/2498 - Release Date: 11/12/09
> 02:38:00
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Until a major "player" gets into the act and builds a great quality E-bike
and then promotes it with a great advertising campaign E-bikes will be
forever the domain of cheap Crap.  Even when a small dedicated group here
decides to design and build a quality E-bike, they have to go to Asia
(hopefully Taiwan) but likely China in order to have it made.  Even if they
tightly control the specs. and oversee every shipment from the overseas
factory they still cannot make a decent profit because people (the great
unwashed masses) always go for the lowest price first on anything they don't
already have a great affinity for.  Face it most of them haven't even heard
of an E-bike before.



This is the reason you will NEVER see a major market develop here in the
U.S. for a quality made E-bike.  I don't care if they give away better
batteries - nobody can profit from this business model today.  That is why I
don't believe it can happen until we can get  people to appreciate quality
over cheap prices.  Good luck.  Until then, anyone thinking of getting into
this business is plain crazy or possibly suicidal ?



Wishing it will happen won't make it happen folks!



Don Harmon



From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of EVsolutions
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:40 PM
To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff





Only thing that has prevented e-bikes from selling in the millions in the
USA is that no company in the USA makes an e-bike and has the money to
properly advertise it so the heaving masses know that their e-bike exists
and what it can do for them in their lives.

Up here in Canada we have this 1,000 store outfit called Canadian Tire Store
that started selling and advertising this really crappy e-bike made in China
about 3 years ago and they generated enough sales to come in with 5 models
the following year. They ran 30 second TV commercials too. People told me
that till they saw those TV Commercials they had never heard of e-bikes.

There was a bit of a fallout too because while it was wonderful we now had
TV Commercials which generated gobs of interest the Canadian Tire line of
e-bikes kinda sucked as far as what a good e-bike should be and as a Huge
chain of stores they kept dropping their prices far below what a Bike Shop
could afford to sell their e-bikes for and still make enough profit to
afford a cup of Coffee. So a lot of Bike Shops got turned off having to
compete with the BIG chain stores.

An example was the Schwinn iZIP e-bikes. Canadian Tire had them for $799.00
and Bike Shops seeing them selling so well started stocking the same Models
and matched the $799.00 price. Then Canadian Tire dropped the price to
$349.00 and that was lower than what the Bike Shops paid Wholesale and they
panicked. So the Bike Shops took a beating and not wanting to have it
repeated stopped selling e-bikes.

Now we have Costco, Wal Mart, Canadian Tire, Sears, Home Hardware and
smaller Chain stores selling e-bikes. Hell we even had Grocery Stores
selling e-bikes. But regular Bike Shops cannot compete on price and they
cannot afford to Advertise when you get these Big Chains running the show.

I have mixed feelings about all this because while on one hand we (at least
up here) are now aware e-bikes exist and you can buy one almost everywhere
but the downside is what is being offered to the masses is utter crap which
reflects badly on manufacturers who are producing much better motor systems
which are being ignored.

Some people have realized what they bought was crap and have gone off
looking for something better which is good but the majority of people will
realize they bought crap and leave the e-bike to rust in the garage and
assume there isn't anything better out there and these people may even use
their bad experiences to persuade others to stay clear of e-bikes so they
don't repeat their mistake.

It is too one sided re: if all people see are crappy e-bikes they won't know
something better exists unless the manufacturers or Dealers can Advertise
they have a better answer and no one on that side of the fence is doing that
kind of Advertising.

We need something like Honda to come up with a quality e-bike and have the
budget to promote it in the popular media otherwise we're screwed.

joshua goldberg

evsolutions@... <mailto:evsolutions%40rogers.com>

www.evsolutions.net

http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/e-motor-assist

http://www.e-bents.net

-----Original Message-----
From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
] On
Behalf Of Michael Brian Bentley
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 12:28 PM
To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff

I haven't been there this year, but last year I was often near
Coleman Dock when a morning Bainbridge-Seattle ferry would dump
commuters onto the street. The first off the ferry are the
motorcycles, and then the bikes, and then cars. About three of the 30
or so bikes were motorized.

So how many ebikes would the various ebike shops have to sell in
order to stay in business? Not everyone sells ebikes, and not every
ebike store sells just ebikes.

The 310,000,000 people in the US love cars, motorcycles, and regular
bikes. It shouldn't be that hard to sell ebikes that work. It even
shouldn't be hard to sell ebikes that barely work.

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.707 / Virus Database: 270.14.61/2498 - Release Date: 11/12/09
02:38:00

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you owned a LiFeBATT battery pack you would have a built in warning
system of audible "beeps" plus could plug your laptop into the batteries and
check your cells right on the screen.



Don Harmon



From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of andrsnj1
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:35 PM
To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff





I'm not too worried about connections coming loose since I check them before
every ride and if there is a couple of minutes during a ride I can check
them then too. All I have to do is switch off all of my batteries except
one, check for voltage, turn on another switch so I have 2 on which means I
won't trip my protection circuit on the Dewalt battery, then switch off the
first one, check for voltage, etc. I can do this for all 10 batteries in
less than a minute. If I find a problem, usually it's an Anderson connector
since those are not very tight fitting, I know exactly where it is based
upon which switch is on, and I can fix it in short order.

I have considered taping my Anderson connectors but I decided not to because
that is just another layer of stuff to deal with and loose connectors don't
happen frequently enough to warrant it.

On the other hand, my leds tell me that a battery is switched on and when
one of the 10 lights goes off I know that either my enable circuit has a
problem or more likely, the battery has expired for some reason. This is how
I can tell when I have a weak battery.

Ideally, all the leds will go off at the same time if I go to the limits
which means all of the batteries are contributing equally. Until you stress
your batteries to their limits, you won't know how good they are. I could
ride fat dumb and happy all the time if I only used half of my battery
capacity.

As far as the loose wires around my battery packs is conerned, since I load
my Dewalt batteries into their individual "sockets" the connections are
close to the wheel. If I ran the wires on the inside they would be close to
the wheel and not easily accessable. I chose to run my wires on the outside
of the bike for easy access to the connectors even though they are subject
to being in the breeze. It's a trade off that I chose.

Connector problems are not a major concern for me because that is something
that is easily fixed and I have a good system for checking them. Most of the
time a connector will come loose during bike transport, not so much while
riding. I'm much more concerned about what's going on inside of my batteries
because that's something I can't do anything about.

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@...> wrote:
>
> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com> , "andrsnj1" <andrsnj@> wrote:
> >
> > My bikes have been very reliable with the exception of the batteries
themselves.
>
> That's not what you just previously said????
>
> "All it takes is a small issue with one or 2 under-performing batteries or
a bad connection or any number of other issues to cut your range to less
than you thought it was."
>
> ?????
>
> > There have been occasions when an Anderson connector or 2 has wiggled
loose or one of the connections to the enable circuit is broken but with my
system I can quickly run it down and make it right. Any system with 10
batteries will necessarily have many connections and I have twice as many as
that since I have an enable circuit and switches in my system.
>
> Yes, and my point was that this approach has its merits, but does come
with the drawback of introducing more possible failure points due to the
extra connections required. Getting angry about this makes about as much
sense as getting angry at someone for telling you you'll get wet if you walk
out in the rain..
>
>
> >
> > I don't have an Anderson crimper, I understand that they are quite
costly. I don't believe that having a name brand crimp tool will
automatically make your connections better than some other method as long as
care is taken. None of my Anderson connector crimps have come apart so far.
>
> You are wrong, and it isn't a *name brand* thing either. The Radio Shack
style of crimper, for example, is a general purpose crimper that isn't
really optimized for any connector in particular while the manufacturer
recommended crimper for their connectors is. No, this is not to say that
using the Radio Shack crimper will bring certain peril, but it does increase
the odds of it.
>
>
> >
> > My other quick connects to my enable circuits are 3M brand with nylon
insulators. If there is a specific crimper for these connectors then I'm not
aware of it. Again, with a good crimp tool, I use an Amp, and being careful,
I believe that good crimp connections can be made reliably.
>
> Okay, so the Radio Shack crimper doesn't apply to you. I haven't been in
your toolbox, I was only responding to your post about ebikes being less
reliable due to connections.
>
> >
> > Since my bike is hodge podge construction, as is every assist bike that
is put together from various parts and not from a single manufacturer who
builds it for you, it does have that appearance. My main concern was to make
everything work well, appearance is a secondary concern.
>
> I know what your main concerns are. It's also true that you have a lot of
loose wires all over the place around your battery packs and these loose
wires are subjected to wind and vibration every ride. This is why it wasn't
a stretch to summize that you were refering to your own connection issues as
a reference.
>
>
> >
> > Do you have any photos of your bike available for examination?
>
> I wasn't complaining about ebike reliability due to connection issues so I
don't feel I'm obligated to prove there are no issues when ebikes are wired
correctly. It's just true.
>
> Robbie
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Only thing that has prevented e-bikes from selling in the millions in the
USA is that no company in the USA makes an e-bike and has the money to
properly advertise it so the heaving masses know that their e-bike exists
and what it can do for them in their lives.



Up here in Canada we have this 1,000 store outfit called Canadian Tire Store
that started selling and advertising this really crappy e-bike made in China
about 3 years ago and they generated enough sales to come in with 5 models
the following year. They ran 30 second TV commercials too. People told me
that till they saw those TV Commercials they had never heard of e-bikes.



There was a bit of a fallout too because while it was wonderful we now had
TV Commercials which generated gobs of interest the Canadian Tire line of
e-bikes kinda sucked as far as what a good e-bike should be and as a Huge
chain of stores they kept dropping their prices far below what a Bike Shop
could afford to sell their e-bikes for and still make enough profit to
afford a cup of Coffee. So a lot of Bike Shops got turned off having to
compete with the BIG chain stores.



An example was the Schwinn iZIP e-bikes. Canadian Tire had them for $799.00
and Bike Shops seeing them selling so well started stocking the same Models
and matched the $799.00 price. Then Canadian Tire dropped the price to
$349.00 and that was lower than what the Bike Shops paid Wholesale and they
panicked. So the Bike Shops took a beating and not wanting to have it
repeated stopped selling e-bikes.



Now we have Costco, Wal Mart, Canadian Tire, Sears, Home Hardware and
smaller Chain stores selling e-bikes. Hell we even had Grocery Stores
selling e-bikes. But regular Bike Shops cannot compete on price and they
cannot afford to Advertise when you get these Big Chains running the show.



I have mixed feelings about all this because while on one hand we (at least
up here) are now aware e-bikes exist and you can buy one almost everywhere
but the downside is what is being offered to the masses is utter crap which
reflects badly on manufacturers who are producing much better motor systems
which are being ignored.



Some people have realized what they bought was crap and have gone off
looking for something better which is good but the majority of people will
realize they bought crap and leave the e-bike to rust in the garage and
assume there isn't anything better out there and these people may even use
their bad experiences to persuade others to stay clear of e-bikes so they
don't repeat their mistake.



It is too one sided re: if all people see are crappy e-bikes they won't know
something better exists unless the manufacturers or Dealers can Advertise
they have a better answer and no one on that side of the fence is doing that
kind of Advertising.



We need something like Honda to come up with a quality e-bike and have the
budget to promote it in the popular media otherwise we're screwed.



joshua goldberg

evsolutions@...

www.evsolutions.net

http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/e-motor-assist

http://www.e-bents.net





-----Original Message-----
From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Michael Brian Bentley
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 12:28 PM
To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff





I haven't been there this year, but last year I was often near
Coleman Dock when a morning Bainbridge-Seattle ferry would dump
commuters onto the street. The first off the ferry are the
motorcycles, and then the bikes, and then cars. About three of the 30
or so bikes were motorized.

So how many ebikes would the various ebike shops have to sell in
order to stay in business? Not everyone sells ebikes, and not every
ebike store sells just ebikes.

The 310,000,000 people in the US love cars, motorcycles, and regular
bikes. It shouldn't be that hard to sell ebikes that work. It even
shouldn't be hard to sell ebikes that barely work.



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.707 / Virus Database: 270.14.61/2498 - Release Date: 11/12/09
02:38:00




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm not too worried about connections coming loose since I check them before
every ride and if there is a couple of minutes during a ride I can check them
then too.  All I have to do is switch off all of my batteries except one, check
for voltage, turn on another switch so I have 2 on which means I won't trip my
protection circuit on the Dewalt battery, then switch off the first one, check
for voltage, etc.  I can do this for all 10 batteries in less than a minute.  If
I find a problem, usually it's an Anderson connector since those are not very
tight fitting, I know exactly where it is based upon which switch is on, and I
can fix it in short order.

I have considered taping my Anderson connectors but I decided not to because
that is just another layer of stuff to deal with and loose connectors don't
happen frequently enough to warrant it.

On the other hand, my leds tell me that a battery is switched on and when one of
the 10 lights goes off I know that either my enable circuit has a problem or
more likely, the battery has expired for some reason.  This is how I can tell
when I have a weak battery.

Ideally, all the leds will go off at the same time if I go to the limits which
means all of the batteries are contributing equally.  Until you stress your
batteries to their limits, you won't know how good they are.  I could ride fat
dumb and happy all the time if I only used half of my battery capacity.

As far as the loose wires around my battery packs is conerned, since I load my
Dewalt batteries into their individual "sockets" the connections are close to
the wheel.  If I ran the wires on the inside they would be close to the wheel
and not easily accessable.  I chose to run my wires on the outside of the bike
for easy access to the connectors even though they are subject to being in the
breeze.  It's a trade off that I chose.

Connector problems are not a major concern for me because that is something that
is easily fixed and I have a good system for checking them.  Most of the time a
connector will come loose during bike transport, not so much while riding.  I'm
much more concerned about what's going on inside of my batteries because that's
something I can't do anything about.

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "andrsnj1" <andrsnj@> wrote:
> >
> > My bikes have been very reliable with the exception of the batteries
themselves.
>
> That's not what you just previously said????
>
> "All it takes is a small issue with one or 2 under-performing batteries or a
bad connection or any number of other issues to cut your range to less than you
thought it was."
>
> ?????
>
> > There have been occasions when an Anderson connector or 2 has wiggled loose
or one of the connections to the enable circuit is broken but with my system I
can quickly run it down and make it right.  Any system with 10 batteries will
necessarily have many connections and I have twice as many as that since I have
an enable circuit and switches in my system.
>
> Yes, and my point was that this approach has its merits, but does come with
the drawback of introducing more possible failure points due to the extra
connections required. Getting angry about this makes about as much sense as
getting angry at someone for telling you you'll get wet if you walk out in the
rain..
>
>
> >
> > I don't have an Anderson crimper, I understand that they are quite costly. 
I don't believe that having a name brand crimp tool will automatically make your
connections better than some other method as long as care is taken.  None of my
Anderson connector crimps have come apart so far.
>
> You are wrong, and it isn't a *name brand* thing either. The Radio Shack style
of crimper, for example, is a general purpose crimper that isn't really
optimized for any connector in particular while the manufacturer recommended
crimper for their connectors is. No, this is not to say that using the Radio
Shack crimper will bring certain peril, but it does increase the odds of it.
>
>
> >
> > My other quick connects to my enable circuits are 3M brand with nylon
insulators.  If there is a specific crimper for these connectors then I'm not
aware of it.  Again, with a good crimp tool, I use an Amp, and being careful, I
believe that good crimp connections can be made reliably.
>
> Okay, so the Radio Shack crimper doesn't apply to you. I haven't been in your
toolbox, I was only responding to your post about ebikes being less reliable due
to connections.
>
> >
> > Since my bike is hodge podge construction, as is every assist bike that is
put together from various parts and not from a single manufacturer who builds it
for you, it does have that appearance.  My main concern was to make everything
work well, appearance is a secondary concern.
>
> I know what your main concerns are. It's also true that you have a lot of
loose wires all over the place around your battery packs and these loose wires
are subjected to wind and vibration every ride. This is why it wasn't a stretch
to summize that you were refering to your own connection issues as a reference.
>
>
> >
> > Do you have any photos of your bike available for examination?
>
> I wasn't complaining about ebike reliability due to connection issues so I
don't feel I'm obligated to prove there are no issues when ebikes are wired
correctly. It's just true.
>
> Robbie
>

John Clary,
Thanks for the information. I will search Power-Assist and Endless-Sphere. I
actually want to drive the RH rear wheel on a delta trike with a Nuvinci
variable speed hub drive driven by a chain from the motor. I will have to design
a large chain sprocket to put on the Nuvinci hub if I can't find one. I already
have a crank system to drive a Nexus 8 speed hub in the LH rear wheel. I don't
think the Nexus can give the long life I need with a 2000 watt motor. I attended
the Shimano Nexus technical seminar at Interbike 2009. Thanks also for the
jackshaft information you sent me on Aug. 24, 2008. The jackshaft is installed
on the trike and is working great. I went through several design and test cycles
to get the durability I want. I have 168 speeds for a gear inch range from 15 to
200.
Don

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, John Clary <opusthepoet@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 4:48 AM, gerhardtdon wrote:
> > > Dan,
> > Are you using a rear hub Crystalyte 408 motor to drive the crank? All my
seies 400 motors are front wheel drive. I will have to find a way to modify a
front hub motor to add a drive sprocket or acquire a rear hub motor. Keep me
posted on your progress. I bought the aluminum and carbon fiber to start making
a body for the delta trike. I am using Turbo CAD 3D Pro for the body design.
> > Thanks
> > Don Gerhardt
> >
> Using a Xtalyte motor as a crank drive has been well documented here
> and on other fora. Easiest way to do this is to replace the left side
> cover of a front hub motor with the right side cover of a rear hub
> motor and then using a standard freewheel to drive a left side
> stoker's crank, ala StokeMonkey. Another documented alternative is to
> use their wheelchair motor with the stub and bolt a right side
> mid-drive onto that so that the motor gets benefits from all the
> gears, but that requires more work to make and change the gears on the
> mid-drive.
>
> --
>>

Hi Josh Kerson,
I will post a link when the article is published. I always enjoy your posts and
the work you are doing to improve E-bike technology. I hope to meet you some
day. I recommend that you attend Interbike 2010. You can get access to Interbike
as a bike dealer. You will enjoy it. I met a number of people in the E-bike
industry. These include our fellow Power Assist member, Don DiCostanzo who
founded Pedego Cycles, Jean-Yves Dube President of BionX, Yuuji Nagahata Manager
of Sanyo bikes and Ed Benjamin an E-bike consultant and President of the Light
Electric Vehicle Association. There is a video on E-bikes from Interbike 2009 at
http:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=zArvOYVW1NI

There were several new radical E-bikes that were on display. One was an electric
unicycle by Focus Designs that is built in the USA. www.focusdesigns.com. The
claimed range was 10 miles with a 36V 4 AmpHR LiFePO4 battery. The top speed is
10 MPH with a MSRP of $1499.

Two very inventive Russians, Konstantin Kulikov and Sergey Cheprasov who moved
to the USA area dispayed a stand up E-trike with pedals that move up and down.
You could shift your weight on the pedals to lean when you went around corners.
www.gettrike.com

Don Gerhardt

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, Josh@... wrote:
>
> Hi Don,
>
> Nice information, glad to hear it. Would you post a link to your article,
> or post the article here?
>
> Thanks so much,
>
> Josh K.
> www.electric-cycle.com
>> >>
> >> I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las
> >> Vegas during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new
> >> E-bikes available and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non profit
> >> Electric Auto Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of electric
> >> vehicles including E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under 200
> >> pounds).
> >>
> >> Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
> >> manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The
> >> total E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to
> >> less than 150,000 in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24
> >> million with China being the lead user.
> >>
> >> There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of Bicycle
> >> Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in
> >> Portland Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the
> >> exclusive U.S.A. distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is
> >> www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike models are imported from Germany. They
> >> use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor and a 26 volt lithium battery.
> >> The motor is located behind the crank. The Kalkhoff model Pro Connect S
> >> includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura hydraulic brakes. Retail
> >> prices range from $2500 to $3500.
> >>
> >> Don Gerhardt
> >>
> >> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?
> >> Durability?  Ridability?  Availability?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks.

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "andrsnj1" <andrsnj@...> wrote:
>
> My bikes have been very reliable with the exception of the batteries
themselves.

That's not what you just previously said????

"All it takes is a small issue with one or 2 under-performing batteries or a bad
connection or any number of other issues to cut your range to less than you
thought it was."

?????

> There have been occasions when an Anderson connector or 2 has wiggled loose or
one of the connections to the enable circuit is broken but with my system I can
quickly run it down and make it right.  Any system with 10 batteries will
necessarily have many connections and I have twice as many as that since I have
an enable circuit and switches in my system.

Yes, and my point was that this approach has its merits, but does come with the
drawback of introducing more possible failure points due to the extra
connections required. Getting angry about this makes about as much sense as
getting angry at someone for telling you you'll get wet if you walk out in the
rain..


>
> I don't have an Anderson crimper, I understand that they are quite costly.  I
don't believe that having a name brand crimp tool will automatically make your
connections better than some other method as long as care is taken.  None of my
Anderson connector crimps have come apart so far.

You are wrong, and it isn't a *name brand* thing either. The Radio Shack style
of crimper, for example, is a general purpose crimper that isn't really
optimized for any connector in particular while the manufacturer recommended
crimper for their connectors is. No, this is not to say that using the Radio
Shack crimper will bring certain peril, but it does increase the odds of it.


>
> My other quick connects to my enable circuits are 3M brand with nylon
insulators.  If there is a specific crimper for these connectors then I'm not
aware of it.  Again, with a good crimp tool, I use an Amp, and being careful, I
believe that good crimp connections can be made reliably.

Okay, so the Radio Shack crimper doesn't apply to you. I haven't been in your
toolbox, I was only responding to your post about ebikes being less reliable due
to connections.

>
> Since my bike is hodge podge construction, as is every assist bike that is put
together from various parts and not from a single manufacturer who builds it for
you, it does have that appearance.  My main concern was to make everything work
well, appearance is a secondary concern.

I know what your main concerns are. It's also true that you have a lot of loose
wires all over the place around your battery packs and these loose wires are
subjected to wind and vibration every ride. This is why it wasn't a stretch to
summize that you were refering to your own connection issues as a reference.


>
> Do you have any photos of your bike available for examination?

I wasn't complaining about ebike reliability due to connection issues so I don't
feel I'm obligated to prove there are no issues when ebikes are wired correctly.
It's just true.

Robbie

I haven't been there this year, but last year I was often near
Coleman Dock when a morning Bainbridge-Seattle ferry would dump
commuters onto the street. The first off the ferry are the
motorcycles, and then the bikes, and then cars. About three of the 30
or so bikes were motorized.

So how many ebikes would the various ebike shops have to sell in
order to stay in business? Not everyone sells ebikes, and not every
ebike store sells just ebikes.

The 310,000,000 people in the US love cars, motorcycles, and regular
bikes. It shouldn't be that hard to sell ebikes that work. It even
shouldn't be hard to sell ebikes that barely work.

I was at Interbike as well and was very impressed by the Kalkhoff bike.  I don't
think I rode it and I don't remember the price (it's not a cheap bike, maybe it
was $2000?).  The construction and design looked very good.

The power train was interesting due to it connecting the motor to the bottom
bracket.

The motor power is 250 watts as would be typical for a European bike because of
their laws.

@andrsnj1: Out here in California I see electric bikes on the road all the time.
They're still a minor minority, of course, but there's a lot of them.  Some of
those are the scooterbikes with their redundant pedals.


- David Herron
http://visforvoltage.org

My bikes have been very reliable with the exception of the batteries themselves.

I have an led and a switch on every battery pack.  Before each ride I switch on
each battery individually, if I get a light I know that the battery has been
switched on through the Dewalt "enable" circuit.  Not being satisfied with that,
I also check my watt meter to be sure that the power is getting to the motor. 
This is a dual test for every battery pack.

There have been occasions when an Anderson connector or 2 has wiggled loose or
one of the connections to the enable circuit is broken but with my system I can
quickly run it down and make it right.  Any system with 10 batteries will
necessarily have many connections and I have twice as many as that since I have
an enable circuit and switches in my system.

I don't have an Anderson crimper, I understand that they are quite costly.  I
don't believe that having a name brand crimp tool will automatically make your
connections better than some other method as long as care is taken.  None of my
Anderson connector crimps have come apart so far.

My other quick connects to my enable circuits are 3M brand with nylon
insulators.  If there is a specific crimper for these connectors then I'm not
aware of it.  Again, with a good crimp tool, I use an Amp, and being careful, I
believe that good crimp connections can be made reliably.

Since my bike is hodge podge construction, as is every assist bike that is put
together from various parts and not from a single manufacturer who builds it for
you, it does have that appearance.  My main concern was to make everything work
well, appearance is a secondary concern.

Do you have any photos of your bike available for examination?

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@...>
wrote:
>
> No offense andrsnj1, but I've taken more than one look at your ebikes in the
photos section. There's a lot to be said for neat, well thought out
construction. Your ebikes look like science projects that were hastily put
together the night before the big fair. Now I know that you're not an EE or even
a trained electrician, and quite honestly I'm impressed with what you've been
able to accomplish despite this but this hodge podge construction would
certainly lend itself to reliability issues. Generally speaking, every extra
crimped connection is another potential failure point. With well engineered
construction, such connections are kept to a minimum. I see using multiple
Dewalt battery packs as a huge disadvantage in this regard. There's always
inherent reliability in simplicity.
>
> How many crimp lugs does your Mt. Washington ebike have? Did you hand crimp
these connections? Did you use the manufacturer's recommended crimp tool or did
you use that general purpose POS crimp tool that Radio Shack sells? This all
adds up to poor reliability and power losses even when everything seems to be
working properly.
>
> Robbie
>
>
> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "andrsnj1" <andrsnj@> wrote:
> >
> > Most of the time 50 miles is far enough for me but I have run out of battery
power on several occasions.  All it takes is a small issue with one or 2
under-performing batteries or a bad connection or any number of other issues to
cut your range to less than you thought it was.
> >
> > To everyone who happily rides along thinking they have a certain number of
watt hours, I suggest testing your batteries once in a while to see what you
really have.  You may be surprised.
> >
>

No offense andrsnj1, but I've taken more than one look at your ebikes in the
photos section. There's a lot to be said for neat, well thought out
construction. Your ebikes look like science projects that were hastily put
together the night before the big fair. Now I know that you're not an EE or even
a trained electrician, and quite honestly I'm impressed with what you've been
able to accomplish despite this but this hodge podge construction would
certainly lend itself to reliability issues. Generally speaking, every extra
crimped connection is another potential failure point. With well engineered
construction, such connections are kept to a minimum. I see using multiple
Dewalt battery packs as a huge disadvantage in this regard. There's always
inherent reliability in simplicity.

How many crimp lugs does your Mt. Washington ebike have? Did you hand crimp
these connections? Did you use the manufacturer's recommended crimp tool or did
you use that general purpose POS crimp tool that Radio Shack sells? This all
adds up to poor reliability and power losses even when everything seems to be
working properly.

Robbie


--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "andrsnj1" <andrsnj@...> wrote:
>
> Most of the time 50 miles is far enough for me but I have run out of battery
power on several occasions.  All it takes is a small issue with one or 2
under-performing batteries or a bad connection or any number of other issues to
cut your range to less than you thought it was.
>
> To everyone who happily rides along thinking they have a certain number of
watt hours, I suggest testing your batteries once in a while to see what you
really have.  You may be surprised.
>

On 11 Nov 2009 at 4:48, gerhardtdon wrote:

>
>
> Dan,

> Are you using a rear hub Crystalyte 408 motor to drive the crank?

Yeah.

> All my seies 400 motors are front wheel drive. I will have to find a
> way to modify a front hub motor to add a drive sprocket or acquire a
> rear hub motor.

I suppose the ideal way would be to drill 5 holes and mount it like the
newer disc brake systems mount. The centering would have to be
perfect, but the result would be better than what I have, because there
would be no possibility of spin-off.

> Keep me posted on your progress. I bought the aluminum and carbon fiber
> to start making a body for the delta trike. I am using Turbo CAD 3D Pro
> for the body design.

Good luck with that. I'm still using ordinary steel, because I can't afford
to screw up better materials.

-ds

Maybe there were 150,000 ebikes sold in the US last year but I doubt it.  I
would like to know where that number came from.

For Robbie to get 50 miles on his ebike by his definition means it is a 100 mile
ebike by my definition.

Most of the time 50 miles is far enough for me but I have run out of battery
power on several occasions.  All it takes is a small issue with one or 2
under-performing batteries or a bad connection or any number of other issues to
cut your range to less than you thought it was.

To everyone who happily rides along thinking they have a certain number of watt
hours, I suggest testing your batteries once in a while to see what you really
have.  You may be surprised.

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "EVsolutions" <evsolutions@...> wrote:
>
> John I really doubt anyone shy of Bent riders would even consider frequent
> rides above 75 miles on an e-bike or any upright bike. People (cannot say
> all people) because it is just a guess but I'd think most e-bikers would
> keep their daily rides below 20 miles and therefore the battery chemistries
> that exist today are fine.
>
>
>
> Drives me up the wall when people say they need a battery that can give them
> a 60 mile range and I get that a lot. When you dig deeper that 60 mile range
> is not what they need but what they want so they don't have to bother using
> a charger more than once or twice a week. Another group are apprehensive
> about using a Charger and want to use one as seldom as possible, likely a
> carry over from stories years ago about Charger fires. Last group keep
> seeing all these Long Ranges promised by businesses out to sell batteries
> and they think this is what they need without realizing to get those 60
> miles they themselves need to weigh 125 pounds and have a strong wind at
> their back on a bike that looks like a TREK Madone.
>
>
>
> joshua goldberg
>
> evsolutions@...
>
> www.evsolutions.net
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/e-motor-assist
>
> http://www.e-bents.net
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of andrsnj1
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 7:59 PM
> To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff
>
>
>
>
>
> I'd like to know where all those ebikes are. One would think that they would
> be visible at some point if they were really selling that well.
>
> I am skeptical about long range ebikes with the current battery technology,
> surprise. The only way to build a long range ebike is to load it up with
> batteries and that means it will be heavy. A heavy ebike will necessarily be
> difficult to pedal without the motor and the scale will be tipped towards
> eliminating the pedals altogether.
>
> Ebikes have a place but I don't think it's long range and high power. Ebikes
> can do around 50-75 miles range, much more than that I think most will be
> swayed to another option when a comparison is made.
>
> --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, Josh@ wrote:
> >
> > HI John,
> >
> > Well, we sold 20 units, several conversions, and repairs, as high end
> > custom equipment.
> > But, I read that NYCE Wheels sold 500 units this year.
> > Furthermore, as I buy the Worldwide reports from Frank Jamerson,
> > and Ed Benjamin, the two most knowledgeable researchers and advisors
> > of the electric bike industry, I believe that the USA will hit 170,000
> units
> > this year. A2B is doing very well, along with Currie and others hitting
> > the big box stores this year, like Best Buy, the industry is expanding.
> >
> > When we showed our E trikes at Interbike in 07, we were one of four
> companies
> > showing electric bike product, 12 companies showed in 08, and it jumped
> > to 67 some odd companies in 09.
> > The German bike show had almost half of the floor dominated by E bike
> > suppliers...
> > Nearly 1 in 7 Bicycles manufactured in the world today, is Electric.
> >
> > E bikes are happening, Organizations like the Light Electric Vehicle
> > Association,
> > and the Ultra Light Vehicle Association are going to accelerate the
> > connections,
> > and foster better and better customer service for the end user.
> >
> > Sorry to see you go backwards towards the old reliable falsely cheap
> > priced oil industry,
> > too bad to see you not on board with the appropriate sized equipment for
> > the job.
> > Maybe you could go totally Getto, and mount a horn on the end of the
> > "Muffler".
> > I got 105 miles, at 22-25 miles an hour this year, with a charge at the
> > mid point, during
> > an electric vehicle meeting in Boulder. We shall be seeing more and more
> > 100 mile plus
> > bikes out there, soon breaking the 4 hour mark, averaging 25 mph. These
> > are the days.
> >
> > A hundred million units on the road in China today, can't be wrong. With
> > more appropriately
> > priced fuel, here in the united states, we will see an exponential growth
> > in E bikes in the
> > next two years. Josh K.
> >
> > www.electric-cycle.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't believe that 150,000 ebikes are sold in the US in a year.
> > >
> > > Josh, how many ebikes did you sell last year?
> > >
> > > There is only one dealer that I know of in my area that you could buy an
> > > ebike from, Giant. I don't think he had any in stock though.
> > >
> > > In all of my riding/driving in the Northeast I have never seen another
> > > ebike other than Chas's when we met in Northeast CT for the Sandy Brook
> > > ride.
> > >
> > > I think those numbers are hype.
> > >
> > > --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@>
> > > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive
> > >> at their destination fresh, not first.
> > >>
> > >> Robbie
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las
> > >> Vegas during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new
> > >> E-bikes available and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non
> > >> profit Electric Auto Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of
> > >> electric vehicles including E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under
> > >> 200 pounds).
> > >> >
> > >> > Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
> > >> manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The
> > >> total E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to
> > >> less than 150,000 in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24
> > >> million with China being the lead user.
> > >> >
> > >> > There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of
> Bicycle
> > >> Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in
> > >> Portland Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the
> > >> exclusive U.S.A. distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is
> > >> www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike models are imported from Germany.
> > >> They use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor and a 26 volt lithium
> > >> battery. The motor is located behind the crank. The Kalkhoff model Pro
> > >> Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura hydraulic
> > >> brakes. Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.
> > >> >
> > >> > Don Gerhardt
> > >> >
> > >> > --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?
> > >> Durability? Ridability? Availability?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Thanks.
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.704 / Virus Database: 270.14.61/2497 - Release Date: 11/11/09
> 14:41:00
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

John I really doubt anyone shy of Bent riders would even consider frequent
rides above 75 miles on an e-bike or any upright bike. People (cannot say
all people) because it is just a guess but I'd think most e-bikers would
keep their daily rides below 20 miles and therefore the battery chemistries
that exist today are fine.



Drives me up the wall when people say they need a battery that can give them
a 60 mile range and I get that a lot. When you dig deeper that 60 mile range
is not what they need but what they want so they don't have to bother using
a charger more than once or twice a week. Another group are apprehensive
about using a Charger and want to use one as seldom as possible, likely a
carry over from stories years ago about Charger fires. Last group keep
seeing all these Long Ranges promised by businesses out to sell batteries
and they think this is what they need without realizing to get those 60
miles they themselves need to weigh 125 pounds and have a strong wind at
their back on a bike that looks like a TREK Madone.



joshua goldberg

evsolutions@...

www.evsolutions.net

http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/e-motor-assist

http://www.e-bents.net





-----Original Message-----
From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of andrsnj1
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 7:59 PM
To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff





I'd like to know where all those ebikes are. One would think that they would
be visible at some point if they were really selling that well.

I am skeptical about long range ebikes with the current battery technology,
surprise. The only way to build a long range ebike is to load it up with
batteries and that means it will be heavy. A heavy ebike will necessarily be
difficult to pedal without the motor and the scale will be tipped towards
eliminating the pedals altogether.

Ebikes have a place but I don't think it's long range and high power. Ebikes
can do around 50-75 miles range, much more than that I think most will be
swayed to another option when a comparison is made.

--- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, Josh@... wrote:
>
> HI John,
>
> Well, we sold 20 units, several conversions, and repairs, as high end
> custom equipment.
> But, I read that NYCE Wheels sold 500 units this year.
> Furthermore, as I buy the Worldwide reports from Frank Jamerson,
> and Ed Benjamin, the two most knowledgeable researchers and advisors
> of the electric bike industry, I believe that the USA will hit 170,000
units
> this year. A2B is doing very well, along with Currie and others hitting
> the big box stores this year, like Best Buy, the industry is expanding.
>
> When we showed our E trikes at Interbike in 07, we were one of four
companies
> showing electric bike product, 12 companies showed in 08, and it jumped
> to 67 some odd companies in 09.
> The German bike show had almost half of the floor dominated by E bike
> suppliers...
> Nearly 1 in 7 Bicycles manufactured in the world today, is Electric.
>
> E bikes are happening, Organizations like the Light Electric Vehicle
> Association,
> and the Ultra Light Vehicle Association are going to accelerate the
> connections,
> and foster better and better customer service for the end user.
>
> Sorry to see you go backwards towards the old reliable falsely cheap
> priced oil industry,
> too bad to see you not on board with the appropriate sized equipment for
> the job.
> Maybe you could go totally Getto, and mount a horn on the end of the
> "Muffler".
> I got 105 miles, at 22-25 miles an hour this year, with a charge at the
> mid point, during
> an electric vehicle meeting in Boulder. We shall be seeing more and more
> 100 mile plus
> bikes out there, soon breaking the 4 hour mark, averaging 25 mph. These
> are the days.
>
> A hundred million units on the road in China today, can't be wrong. With
> more appropriately
> priced fuel, here in the united states, we will see an exponential growth
> in E bikes in the
> next two years. Josh K.
>
> www.electric-cycle.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't believe that 150,000 ebikes are sold in the US in a year.
> >
> > Josh, how many ebikes did you sell last year?
> >
> > There is only one dealer that I know of in my area that you could buy an
> > ebike from, Giant. I don't think he had any in stock though.
> >
> > In all of my riding/driving in the Northeast I have never seen another
> > ebike other than Chas's when we met in Northeast CT for the Sandy Brook
> > ride.
> >
> > I think those numbers are hype.
> >
> > --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive
> >> at their destination fresh, not first.
> >>
> >> Robbie
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las
> >> Vegas during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new
> >> E-bikes available and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non
> >> profit Electric Auto Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of
> >> electric vehicles including E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under
> >> 200 pounds).
> >> >
> >> > Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
> >> manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The
> >> total E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to
> >> less than 150,000 in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24
> >> million with China being the lead user.
> >> >
> >> > There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of
Bicycle
> >> Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in
> >> Portland Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the
> >> exclusive U.S.A. distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is
> >> www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike models are imported from Germany.
> >> They use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor and a 26 volt lithium
> >> battery. The motor is located behind the crank. The Kalkhoff model Pro
> >> Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura hydraulic
> >> brakes. Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.
> >> >
> >> > Don Gerhardt
> >> >
> >> > --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@>
> >> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?
> >> Durability? Ridability? Availability?
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.704 / Virus Database: 270.14.61/2497 - Release Date: 11/11/09
14:41:00




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yawn..

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "andrsnj1" <andrsnj@...> wrote:
>
> I'd like to know where all those ebikes are.  One would think that they would
be visible at some point if they were really selling that well.

I've seen several around. The U.S. is a big place. 150,000 could hide like a
needle in a haystack.


>
> I am skeptical about long range ebikes with the current battery technology,
surprise.

Long range by your definition? Perhaps. Long range to most everyone else is 50
miles and that's easily doable with a battery pack that isn't so heavy that the
bike can't be meaningfully pedaled. Once again, didn't our moderator along with
you beat a fast group of lycras over a 50 mile ride in hilly terrain? With a
single speed currie uspd drive, wouldn't our moderator have had to pedal
meaningfully to make this happen? Come on already..


>  The only way to build a long range ebike is to load it up with batteries and
that means it will be heavy.  A heavy ebike will necessarily be difficult to
pedal without the motor and the scale will be tipped towards eliminating the
pedals altogether.

In all the miles you've ridden have you failed to observe that a heavier bike is
only a disadvantage when accelerating or climbing hills --- both cases where we
use the motor to assist anyway? I can pedal my 48V 20ah powered mountain bike
all day long on the flat at 18 - 20mph with no problem.

>
> Ebikes have a place but I don't think it's long range and high power.  Ebikes
can do around 50-75 miles range, much more than that I think most will be swayed
to another option when a comparison is made.

Your notion of what *most* would want is unfounded. *Most* people wouldn't be
willing to ride any further than this on any kind of bicycle no matter how much
range it has. You have tunnel vision in this regard andrsnj1..

Robbie


>
>
>
> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, Josh@ wrote:
> >
> > HI John,
> >
> > Well, we sold 20 units, several conversions, and repairs, as high end
> > custom equipment.
> > But,  I read that NYCE Wheels sold 500 units this year.
> > Furthermore, as I buy the Worldwide reports from Frank Jamerson,
> > and Ed Benjamin, the two most knowledgeable researchers and advisors
> > of the electric bike industry, I believe that the USA will hit 170,000 units
> > this year. A2B is doing very well, along with Currie and others hitting
> > the big box stores this year, like Best Buy, the industry is expanding.
> >
> > When we showed our E trikes at Interbike in 07, we were one of four
companies
> > showing electric bike product, 12 companies showed in 08, and it jumped
> > to 67 some odd companies in 09.
> > The German bike show had almost half of the floor dominated by E bike
> > suppliers...
> > Nearly 1 in 7 Bicycles manufactured in the world today, is Electric.
> >
> > E bikes are happening, Organizations like the Light Electric Vehicle
> > Association,
> > and the Ultra Light Vehicle Association are going to accelerate the
> > connections,
> > and foster better and better customer service for the end user.
> >
> > Sorry to see you go backwards towards the old reliable falsely cheap
> > priced oil industry,
> > too bad to see you not on board with the appropriate sized equipment for
> > the job.
> > Maybe you could go totally Getto, and mount a horn on the end of the
> > "Muffler".
> > I got 105 miles, at 22-25 miles an hour this year, with a charge at the
> > mid point, during
> > an electric vehicle meeting in Boulder. We shall be seeing more and more
> > 100 mile plus
> > bikes out there, soon breaking the 4 hour mark, averaging 25 mph. These
> > are the days.
> >
> > A hundred million units on the road in China today, can't be wrong. With
> > more appropriately
> > priced fuel, here in the united states, we will see an exponential growth
> > in E bikes in the
> > next two years. Josh K.
> >
> > www.electric-cycle.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  I don't believe that 150,000 ebikes are sold in the US in a year.
> > >
> > > Josh, how many ebikes did you sell last year?
> > >
> > > There is only one dealer that I know of in my area that you could buy an
> > > ebike from, Giant.  I don't think he had any in stock though.
> > >
> > > In all of my riding/driving in the Northeast I have never seen another
> > > ebike other than Chas's when we met in Northeast CT for the Sandy Brook
> > > ride.
> > >
> > > I think those numbers are hype.
> > >
> > > --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@>
> > > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive
> > >> at their destination fresh, not first.
> > >>
> > >> Robbie
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las
> > >> Vegas during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new
> > >> E-bikes available and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non
> > >> profit Electric Auto Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of
> > >> electric vehicles including E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under
> > >> 200 pounds).
> > >> >
> > >> > Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
> > >> manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The
> > >> total E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to
> > >> less than 150,000 in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24
> > >> million with China being the lead user.
> > >> >
> > >> > There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of Bicycle
> > >> Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in
> > >> Portland Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the
> > >> exclusive U.S.A. distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is
> > >> www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike models are imported from Germany.
> > >> They use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor and a 26 volt lithium
> > >> battery. The motor is located behind the crank. The Kalkhoff model Pro
> > >> Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura hydraulic
> > >> brakes. Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.
> > >> >
> > >> > Don Gerhardt
> > >> >
> > >> > --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?
> > >> Durability?  Ridability?  Availability?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Thanks.
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

I'd like to know where all those ebikes are.  One would think that they would be
visible at some point if they were really selling that well.

I am skeptical about long range ebikes with the current battery technology,
surprise.  The only way to build a long range ebike is to load it up with
batteries and that means it will be heavy.  A heavy ebike will necessarily be
difficult to pedal without the motor and the scale will be tipped towards
eliminating the pedals altogether.

Ebikes have a place but I don't think it's long range and high power.  Ebikes
can do around 50-75 miles range, much more than that I think most will be swayed
to another option when a comparison is made.



--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, Josh@... wrote:
>
> HI John,
>
> Well, we sold 20 units, several conversions, and repairs, as high end
> custom equipment.
> But,  I read that NYCE Wheels sold 500 units this year.
> Furthermore, as I buy the Worldwide reports from Frank Jamerson,
> and Ed Benjamin, the two most knowledgeable researchers and advisors
> of the electric bike industry, I believe that the USA will hit 170,000 units
> this year. A2B is doing very well, along with Currie and others hitting
> the big box stores this year, like Best Buy, the industry is expanding.
>
> When we showed our E trikes at Interbike in 07, we were one of four companies
> showing electric bike product, 12 companies showed in 08, and it jumped
> to 67 some odd companies in 09.
> The German bike show had almost half of the floor dominated by E bike
> suppliers...
> Nearly 1 in 7 Bicycles manufactured in the world today, is Electric.
>
> E bikes are happening, Organizations like the Light Electric Vehicle
> Association,
> and the Ultra Light Vehicle Association are going to accelerate the
> connections,
> and foster better and better customer service for the end user.
>
> Sorry to see you go backwards towards the old reliable falsely cheap
> priced oil industry,
> too bad to see you not on board with the appropriate sized equipment for
> the job.
> Maybe you could go totally Getto, and mount a horn on the end of the
> "Muffler".
> I got 105 miles, at 22-25 miles an hour this year, with a charge at the
> mid point, during
> an electric vehicle meeting in Boulder. We shall be seeing more and more
> 100 mile plus
> bikes out there, soon breaking the 4 hour mark, averaging 25 mph. These
> are the days.
>
> A hundred million units on the road in China today, can't be wrong. With
> more appropriately
> priced fuel, here in the united states, we will see an exponential growth
> in E bikes in the
> next two years. Josh K.
>
> www.electric-cycle.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  I don't believe that 150,000 ebikes are sold in the US in a year.
> >
> > Josh, how many ebikes did you sell last year?
> >
> > There is only one dealer that I know of in my area that you could buy an
> > ebike from, Giant.  I don't think he had any in stock though.
> >
> > In all of my riding/driving in the Northeast I have never seen another
> > ebike other than Chas's when we met in Northeast CT for the Sandy Brook
> > ride.
> >
> > I think those numbers are hype.
> >
> > --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive
> >> at their destination fresh, not first.
> >>
> >> Robbie
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las
> >> Vegas during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new
> >> E-bikes available and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non
> >> profit Electric Auto Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of
> >> electric vehicles including E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under
> >> 200 pounds).
> >> >
> >> > Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
> >> manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The
> >> total E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to
> >> less than 150,000 in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24
> >> million with China being the lead user.
> >> >
> >> > There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of Bicycle
> >> Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in
> >> Portland Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the
> >> exclusive U.S.A. distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is
> >> www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike models are imported from Germany.
> >> They use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor and a 26 volt lithium
> >> battery. The motor is located behind the crank. The Kalkhoff model Pro
> >> Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura hydraulic
> >> brakes. Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.
> >> >
> >> > Don Gerhardt
> >> >
> >> > --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@>
> >> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?
> >> Durability?  Ridability?  Availability?
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>

HI John,

Well, we sold 20 units, several conversions, and repairs, as high end
custom equipment.
But,  I read that NYCE Wheels sold 500 units this year.
Furthermore, as I buy the Worldwide reports from Frank Jamerson,
and Ed Benjamin, the two most knowledgeable researchers and advisors
of the electric bike industry, I believe that the USA will hit 170,000 units
this year. A2B is doing very well, along with Currie and others hitting
the big box stores this year, like Best Buy, the industry is expanding.

When we showed our E trikes at Interbike in 07, we were one of four companies
showing electric bike product, 12 companies showed in 08, and it jumped
to 67 some odd companies in 09.
The German bike show had almost half of the floor dominated by E bike
suppliers...
Nearly 1 in 7 Bicycles manufactured in the world today, is Electric.

E bikes are happening, Organizations like the Light Electric Vehicle
Association,
and the Ultra Light Vehicle Association are going to accelerate the
connections,
and foster better and better customer service for the end user.

Sorry to see you go backwards towards the old reliable falsely cheap
priced oil industry,
too bad to see you not on board with the appropriate sized equipment for
the job.
Maybe you could go totally Getto, and mount a horn on the end of the
"Muffler".
I got 105 miles, at 22-25 miles an hour this year, with a charge at the
mid point, during
an electric vehicle meeting in Boulder. We shall be seeing more and more
100 mile plus
bikes out there, soon breaking the 4 hour mark, averaging 25 mph. These
are the days.

A hundred million units on the road in China today, can't be wrong. With
more appropriately
priced fuel, here in the united states, we will see an exponential growth
in E bikes in the
next two years. Josh K.

www.electric-cycle.com






  I don't believe that 150,000 ebikes are sold in the US in a year.
>
> Josh, how many ebikes did you sell last year?
>
> There is only one dealer that I know of in my area that you could buy an
> ebike from, Giant.  I don't think he had any in stock though.
>
> In all of my riding/driving in the Northeast I have never seen another
> ebike other than Chas's when we met in Northeast CT for the Sandy Brook
> ride.
>
> I think those numbers are hype.
>
> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive
>> at their destination fresh, not first.
>>
>> Robbie
>>
>>
>> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las
>> Vegas during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new
>> E-bikes available and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non
>> profit Electric Auto Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of
>> electric vehicles including E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under
>> 200 pounds).
>> >
>> > Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
>> manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The
>> total E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to
>> less than 150,000 in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24
>> million with China being the lead user.
>> >
>> > There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of Bicycle
>> Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in
>> Portland Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the
>> exclusive U.S.A. distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is
>> www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike models are imported from Germany.
>> They use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor and a 26 volt lithium
>> battery. The motor is located behind the crank. The Kalkhoff model Pro
>> Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura hydraulic
>> brakes. Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.
>> >
>> > Don Gerhardt
>> >
>> > --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?
>> Durability?  Ridability?  Availability?
>> > >
>> > > Thanks.
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>
>

I'd put it close to 150,000 too.



Just last week someone posted a link to Bert at NYCeWheels where he said
last year he sold 500 of the Forza model eZee E-bikes. Seems pretty good
when one small store in NYC where e-bikes are Outlawed to sell 500 of just
one model of e-bike.



When Wal Mart buys e-bikes and e-scooters they tend to order 50,000 units
per shot.



Figure the various models under the iZIP label were a huge seller for Wal
Mart.



You're going to see awesome E-Bike sales numbers from Ontario next year
because the Idiots in the Ontario Government have declared the Vespa looking
Electric Scooters you could not pedal even with a gun to your temple to be
the same as E-Bikes which are pedal assist electric bicycles. The E-Scooter
sales are going off the charts up here with single stores selling
"thousands" per season.



Politicians worry me. I see a Cannondale Bicycle with a Hub Motor on one
side and a 160 pound Vespa like E-Scooter covered in Plastic parts beside it
and I see 2 completely different animals but our Politicians see both 2
wheelers as the same.



joshua goldberg

evsolutions@...

www.evsolutions.net

http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/e-motor-assist

http://www.e-bents.net





-----Original Message-----
From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of andrsnj1
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 4:41 PM
To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [power-assist] Re: Kalkhoff





I don't believe that 150,000 ebikes are sold in the US in a year.

Josh, how many ebikes did you sell last year?

There is only one dealer that I know of in my area that you could buy an
ebike from, Giant. I don't think he had any in stock though.

In all of my riding/driving in the Northeast I have never seen another ebike
other than Chas's when we met in Northeast CT for the Sandy Brook ride.

I think those numbers are hype.

--- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@...> wrote:
>
> See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive at
their destination fresh, not first.
>
> Robbie
>
>
> --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las
Vegas during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new E-bikes
available and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non profit Electric
Auto Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of electric vehicles
including E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under 200 pounds).
> >
> > Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The total
E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to less than
150,000 in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24 million with China
being the lead user.
> >
> > There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of Bicycle
Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in Portland
Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the exclusive U.S.A.
distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three
E-bike models are imported from Germany. They use a 250 watt Panasonic
electric motor and a 26 volt lithium battery. The motor is located behind
the crank. The Kalkhoff model Pro Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore
XT and Magura hydraulic brakes. Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.
> >
> > Don Gerhardt
> >
> > --- In power-assist@ <mailto:power-assist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?
Durability? Ridability? Availability?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> >
>



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.704 / Virus Database: 270.14.60/2496 - Release Date: 11/11/09
02:40:00




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't believe that 150,000 ebikes are sold in the US in a year.

Josh, how many ebikes did you sell last year?

There is only one dealer that I know of in my area that you could buy an ebike
from, Giant.  I don't think he had any in stock though.

In all of my riding/driving in the Northeast I have never seen another ebike
other than Chas's when we met in Northeast CT for the Sandy Brook ride.

I think those numbers are hype.

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "robbiehatfield" <robbiehatfield@...>
wrote:
>
> See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive at
their destination fresh, not first.
>
> Robbie
>
>
> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las Vegas
during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new E-bikes available
and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non profit Electric Auto
Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of electric vehicles including
E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under 200 pounds).
> >
> > Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The total
E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to less than 150,000
in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24 million with China being the
lead user.
> >
> > There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of Bicycle
Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in Portland
Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the exclusive U.S.A.
distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike
models are imported from Germany. They use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor
and a 26 volt lithium battery. The motor is located behind the crank. The
Kalkhoff model Pro Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura
hydraulic brakes. Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.
> >
> > Don Gerhardt
> >
> > --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs? 
Durability?  Ridability?  Availability?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> >
>

Hi Don,

Nice information, glad to hear it. Would you post a link to your article,
or post the article here?

Thanks so much,

Josh K.
www.electric-cycle.com



  See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive at
> their destination fresh, not first.
>
> Robbie
>
>
> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@...>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las
>> Vegas during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new
>> E-bikes available and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non profit
>> Electric Auto Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of electric
>> vehicles including E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under 200
>> pounds).
>>
>> Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
>> manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The
>> total E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to
>> less than 150,000 in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24
>> million with China being the lead user.
>>
>> There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of Bicycle
>> Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in
>> Portland Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the
>> exclusive U.S.A. distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is
>> www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike models are imported from Germany. They
>> use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor and a 26 volt lithium battery.
>> The motor is located behind the crank. The Kalkhoff model Pro Connect S
>> includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura hydraulic brakes. Retail
>> prices range from $2500 to $3500.
>>
>> Don Gerhardt
>>
>> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@> wrote:
>> >
>> > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?
>> Durability?  Ridability?  Availability?
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>>
>
>
>

See andrsnj1? 500,000 people in Europe think it's worthwhile to arrive at their
destination fresh, not first.

Robbie


--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "gerhardtdon" <gerhardtdon@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las Vegas
during September 2009. My objective was to review all the new E-bikes available
and to write an article on E-bilkes for the non profit Electric Auto
Assoociation (EAA). EAA promotes all types of electric vehicles including
E-bikes and light electric vehicles (under 200 pounds).
>
> Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike
manufacture in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The total
E-bike sales in Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to less than 150,000
in the USA. The total world E-bike sales are 24 million with China being the
lead user.
>
> There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of Bicycle
Retailer & Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in Portland
Oregon by Eric von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the exclusive U.S.A.
distributor of Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike
models are imported from Germany. They use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor
and a 26 volt lithium battery. The motor is located behind the crank. The
Kalkhoff model Pro Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura
hydraulic brakes. Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.
>
> Don Gerhardt
>
> --- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs? 
Durability?  Ridability?  Availability?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 4:48 AM, gerhardtdon wrote:
>
>
> Dan,
> Are you using a rear hub Crystalyte 408 motor to drive the crank? All my seies
400 motors are front wheel drive. I will have to find a way to modify a front
hub motor to add a drive sprocket or acquire a rear hub motor. Keep me posted on
your progress. I bought the aluminum and carbon fiber to start making a body for
the delta trike. I am using Turbo CAD 3D Pro for the body design.
> Thanks
> Don Gerhardt
>
Using a Xtalyte motor as a crank drive has been well documented here
and on other fora. Easiest way to do this is to replace the left side
cover of a front hub motor with the right side cover of a rear hub
motor and then using a standard freewheel to drive a left side
stoker's crank, ala StokeMonkey. Another documented alternative is to
use their wheelchair motor with the stub and bolt a right side
mid-drive onto that so that the motor gets benefits from all the
gears, but that requires more work to make and change the gears on the
mid-drive.

--
Opus

Lycra Cyclists have Lance Armstrong

Recumbent Cyclists have Sam Wittingham

The Hells Angels have Sonny Barger

E-bikers have---> Ed Begley Jr.

We're totally screwed

I attended the Interbike 2009 International bike dealer expo in Las Vegas during
September 2009. My objective was to review all the new E-bikes available and to
write an article on E-bilkes for the non profit Electric Auto Assoociation
(EAA). EAA promotes all types of electric vehicles including E-bikes and light
electric vehicles (under 200 pounds).

Kalkhoff had a display at booth 465. Kalkhoff is a 90 year old bike manufacture
in Germany. They sell 60,000 E-bikes a year in Europe. The total E-bike sales in
Europe last year was 500,000 units compared to less than 150,000 in the USA. The
total world E-bike sales are 24 million with China being the lead user.

There is an article on Kalkhoff in the Sept. 23, 2009 issue of Bicycle Retailer
& Industry News. Greenlight Bikes was recently formed in Portland Oregon by Eric
von der Heyden and Geoff Wagner and are the exclusive U.S.A. distributor of
Kalkhoff bikes. The web site is www.kalkhoffusa.com. Three E-bike models are
imported from Germany. They use a 250 watt Panasonic electric motor and a 26
volt lithium battery. The motor is located behind the crank. The Kalkhoff model
Pro Connect S includes a 9 speed Shimano Deore XT and Magura hydraulic brakes.
Retail prices range from $2500 to $3500.

Don Gerhardt

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "exhaustopenic" <virtualy1@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?  Durability? 
Ridability?  Availability?
>
> Thanks.
>

Dan,
Are you using a rear hub Crystalyte 408 motor to drive the crank? All my seies
400 motors are front wheel drive. I will have to find a way to modify a front
hub motor to add a drive sprocket or acquire a rear hub motor. Keep me posted on
your progress. I bought the aluminum and carbon fiber to start making a body for
the delta trike. I am using Turbo CAD 3D Pro for the body design.
Thanks
Don Gerhardt

--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Sullivan" <pimann@...> wrote:
>
> On 9 Nov 2009 at 17:52, gerhardtdon wrote:
>
> > Hi Dan Sullivan,
>
> > How did you install the sprocket on the Crystalyte 408 to drive the
> > crank? I am interested in using a 2 speed Crystalyte 404/408 at 72
> > volts to drive a Nuvinci multi speed hub on my delta e-trike. I am
> > having difficulty finding an alternative light weight motor with good
> > life at 2000 watts.
>
> I just threaded the sprocket on, using the highest strength thread locker
> I could find, followed by the lock ring, making it as tight as I could
> without fearing that I would strip the threads. It seems to be holding just
> fine right now, but we'll see what happens at 72v.
>
> I don't see the need for a two-speed motor if you have all the gearing
> you need. I just try to adjust the chainring sizes so the ideal rpm of the
> motor matches my favorite cadence. Of course, I have to operate within
> a range. The smallest ring I could find to fit my hole pattern has 34
> teeth, although I understand I can dig up a 32t if I look hard enough. 34t
> was just fine for the 36v setup. To keep the same top speed (which is a
> tad too slow anyhow), I would have to go to 68t, which doesn't come to
> on fit the Sun freewheeling crank's small hole pattern. Also, this
> chainring has to be smaller than the largest chainring driving the
> rearward chain, so the derailleur doesn't hit it. I figure I can get up to
> 50t, which should boost my speed a bit and boost my power a lot.
>
> As long as the front sprocket doesn't spin off the motor threads, I
> should be fine. If it does spin off, I'll let people know. A cotter pin would
> be the next logical step. However, unless I can find (or file down) an
> extra thin lock nut and/or an extra thin sprocket, there is no room for a
> cotter pin.
>
> -ds
>

Does anyone in the group have experience with Kalkhoff pedelecs?  Durability? 
Ridability?  Availability?

Thanks.

It's actually not that hard to understand. A good number of the people in Europe
today are the descendants of those that could stay and follow the rules. A good
number of the people in the U.S. are the descendants of those who wouldn't put
up with such rules then or now.

Robbie


--- In power-assist@yahoogroups.com, "EVsolutions" <evsolutions@...> wrote:
>
> You'd think that (I did too) but the Europeans/Brits have this strange need
> to obey the Law. Best I can figure is the Importers follow the 250W
> Legislation and so their customers are stuck with 250W. Everyone and his Dog
> seems to operate at 24V.
>
>
>
> joshua goldberg
>
> evsolutions@...
>
> www.evsolutions.net
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/e-motor-assist
>
> http://www.e-bents.net
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: power-assist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:power-assist@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Dan Sullivan
> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 9:46 AM
> To: power-assist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [power-assist] Re: Controller with a 200W limiter
>
>
>
>
>
> On 8 Nov 2009 at 11:55, andrsnj1 wrote:
>
> > According to Joshua, 200 watt assist bikes are selling well in Europe,
> > I find that difficult to imagine.
>
> It's impossible to imagine people voluntarily limiting themselves to
> 200w. It's much easier to imagine governments limiting them to 200w,
> which is what happened.
>
> -ds
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.698 / Virus Database: 270.14.58/2493 - Release Date: 11/09/09
> 14:40:00
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>