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Reply | Forward Message #20579 of 21093 |
Re: Small prime divisors of very large numbers

--- In primenumbers@yahoogroups.com,
"David Broadhurst" <d.broadhurst@...> wrote:

> Richard hit a infinite gold mine of proofs

The next step is to look at cases with a Hardy-Wright
"gcd problem" that cannot be solved so easily and then
solve them with the Chinese Remainder Theorem (CRT).

I begin with base 137 and define
z(x) = znorder(Mod(137,x)).

The first problem prime is 823, with z(823) = 3*137.
So we have a "gcd problem" more difficult than Richard's.

Here is how to compute
137^(137^(137^(137^(137^137)))) modulo 823
with n = 6 occurrences of 137,
while keeping Hardy and Wright happy.

Let a=Mod(137,823) and b=Mod(137,3*137).
Then we need to compute
a^lift(b^c) with c=137^(137^(137^137)).
But we know that
lift(b^c) = 0 mod 137, and
lift(b^c) = 2 mod 3, since 137 = 2 mod 3, and c is odd.
Hence, by the CRT, lift(b^c) = 137 and
a^lift(b^c) = a^137 = Mod(174, 823).
But I used only the fact the c is odd. So the residue
with n > 1 occurrences of 137 has the constant value 174.

More generally, if we hit a factor 137 in a "znorder" chain,
we peel it off, and proceed with a "reduced" chain, using
the CRT. It may be that we later hit another factor of 137
in the reduced chain, which we can treat similarly.
For example, with p = 12018737 we have
z(z(z(p)/137))/137 = 10 with factors of 137 peeled
off at the first and third links of the chain.

Now suppose we hit a power of 137 greater than unity in a chain.
Consider, for example, the prime p = 5330399, with
z(z(p)) = 71*137^2. To compute
137^(137^(137^(137^(137^137)))) modulo p
we set a = Mod(137,p), b = Mod(137,z(p)), c = Mod(137,71*137^2)
and use the CRT to compute
a^lift(b^lift(c^d)), with d = 137^(137^(137)).
It's straightforward to compute Mod(137,71)^d using a reduced chain.
To show that Mod(137,137^2)^d = Mod(0,137^2) we need only the fact
that d >1. Hence the CRT will give us the value of lift(c^d).

Clearly these procedures require carefully programming.
The point of this contribution is to indicate
that there is no insuperable obstacle posed by
the "gcd problem", provided we use "znorder" and the CRT.

I conclude with the challenge set by Richard Heylen in
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/primenumbers/message/20560
namely this: consider a powering of n instances of 2.
For what values of n is the residue modulo 3121 congruent to -5 ?

The order of Mod(2,3121) is 2^2*39. So we peel off 2^2
and study Mod(2,39), whose order is 2^2*3.
Then we peel off another 2^2 and are left with the easy
problem of powerings of 2 modulo 3, which give
Mod(2,3)^2 = Mod(1,3),
Mod(2,3)^(2^2) = Mod(1,3) and so on ad infinitum.
Hence, by two applications of the CRT, the answer
for n > 4 is the same as that for n = 4.
But it is trivial to check that
2^(2^(2^2)) + 5 = 0 mod 3121.
So we are done: all powerings with at least 4
instances of 2 give the same residue.

Morals:
1) When Hardy and Wright frown, think Chinese.
2) Blind iteration of "eulerphi" is fraught with danger.
3) "znorder" and the CRT enable us to tackle all such questions.

David





Sat Jul 4, 2009 12:48 am

djbroadhurst
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Message #20579 of 21093 |
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... So let's go very slowly and hope not to fool ourselves. I shall use "znorder" in preference to "eulerphi", since then we shall see just how pretty...
David Broadhurst
djbroadhurst
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Jul 3, 2009
3:40 pm

... The next step is to look at cases with a Hardy-Wright "gcd problem" that cannot be solved so easily and then solve them with the Chinese Remainder Theorem...
David Broadhurst
djbroadhurst
Offline Send Email
Jul 4, 2009
12:49 am

... Isn't it irritating to work out the right way of doing something and not being able to show the wrong way failing for the base of interest! What's...
richard_in_reading
richard_in_r...
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Jul 4, 2009
5:48 am

... Simply ask Pari-GP for Mod(137,1+808*137^138)^(137^137) Puzzle: Find last 10 decimal digits of the residue of ...
David Broadhurst
djbroadhurst
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Jul 4, 2009
10:15 am

... Ok. I'm probably going to blot my copybook here but I think the last digits of 137^^k mod p are k=1 0000000137 k=2 7801462217 k=3 0547325344 k=4 5375909947...
richard_in_reading
richard_in_r...
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Jul 4, 2009
4:58 pm

... The right answer by a bogus method :-) My mathematically legal method involves 3 applications of the CRT, in this "znorder" chain: z(x)=znorder(Mod(137,x))...
David Broadhurst
djbroadhurst
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Jul 4, 2009
11:15 pm

... {mypmod(b,n,p)=local(m=[p],f=0); while(n=n-1,m=concat(eulerphi(m[1]),m)); for(p=n=1,#m,n=lift(Mod(b,m[p])^n); ...
David Broadhurst
djbroadhurst
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Jul 5, 2009
11:59 am

... For information, here is the GP version that I used: GP/PARI CALCULATOR Version 2.4.2 (development) amd64 running linux (x86-64 kernel) 64-bit version ...
David Broadhurst
djbroadhurst
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Jul 5, 2009
2:14 pm

... Richard gave 3 nice examples, on whose cyclotomy I here remark, using Phi(n,x) to denote the n-th cyclotomic polynomial in x. 1) Base-2 powerings modulo...
David Broadhurst
djbroadhurst
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Jul 5, 2009
11:01 pm

... To find a gap of 5 (what Richard calls a difference of 6), one might build on the prime of Western and Seelhoff (from way back in 1886) ...
David Broadhurst
djbroadhurst
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Jul 6, 2009
12:22 am

... I gave the wrong URL. Here is the correct one http://primes.utm.edu/primes/page.php?id=6773 with apologies to Gennady Nickolaevich Gusev. Moreover, there...
David Broadhurst
djbroadhurst
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Jul 6, 2009
1:02 am

... Indeed it does, Richard. Simply use this easily found seed: p=5572*3^33+1; print(factor(znorder(Mod(3,p)))) Mat([3, 29]) noting that 29 > 3^3. David...
David Broadhurst
djbroadhurst
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Jul 6, 2009
2:28 am

... To get the same gap in base 5, use print(factor(znorder(Mod(5,14*5^3483+1)))) Mat([5, 3483]) noting that 3483 > 5^5. David...
David Broadhurst
djbroadhurst
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Jul 6, 2009
3:55 am

... It is not hard to find a bigger gap for base 137: Mod(137,78*137^192+1) has order 137^192 > 137^137 It is not hard to find a bigger gap for base 1033: b =...
David Broadhurst
djbroadhurst
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Jul 6, 2009
8:11 pm

... With b = 3581, n = 8001, the 28436-digit prime p = 2*b^n + 1: http://primes.utm.edu/primes/page.php?id=5735 found by René Dohmen in March 2000, neatly...
David Broadhurst
djbroadhurst
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Jul 8, 2009
5:01 am

... I think it gives that 2^^x+5 is divisible by 7 for all odd x > 1. [I stopped at x=1000.] Mike...
Mike Oakes
mikeoakes2
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Jul 3, 2009
8:25 am

... Good old PFGW tells me 2^^x+5 is divisible by 7 for all x such that x = 3 * k + 1 with k>=0 Lélio, still illiterate in Pari-GP [Non-text portions of this...
Lélio Ribeiro de P...
lelio_73
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Jul 3, 2009
10:10 am

... Dear Lélio You have been misled by an unusual notation that I have tried to avoid. The question was about the divisibility by 7 of this sequence 2 + 5 2^2...
David Broadhurst
djbroadhurst
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Jul 3, 2009
11:45 am

... The proof below can be used to show, for instance, that the seven primes (2, 3, 5, 29, 821, 23339, 67525153) that divided both 137^(137^(137^(137^137))) +...
Mark Underwood
marku606
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Jul 2, 2009
11:02 pm

... Theorem: if k + m has a factor p and if k^n + m has the same factor p, then k^n^n + m will have the same factor of p. In other words, we theorize that if...
David Broadhurst
djbroadhurst
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Jul 3, 2009
1:06 am

... Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way up, but I don't see how your Theorem (which I agree is true) helps prove that the seven primes that divide...
Richard FitzHugh
mad37wriggle
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Jul 3, 2009
3:55 am

... Richard and my messages got crossed in a private email exchange just minutes ago I think. And my last message to the board in response to his private email...
Mark Underwood
marku606
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Jul 3, 2009
4:40 am

... Richard and my messages just got crossed in private email. Here is what I sent him just a minute ago: ************* Hi Richard, You were not getting lost...
Mark Underwood
marku606
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Jul 3, 2009
4:59 am

... Yes. I underwrote the theorem after careful reading. ... Yes. Thanks to Richard F for spotting that. Casualties so far: 1) Mark R, Lelio and Norman for not...
David Broadhurst
djbroadhurst
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Jul 3, 2009
9:57 am

... Note that 73 and 137 are the smallest prime factors of 10^(8n-4) +1. They are also prime factors of 10^8n -1, where n is a positive integer. Useful? ...
Patrick Capelle
conjectureprime
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Jul 4, 2009
7:42 am
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