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primes, differences, a hastily constructed puzzle :-) !   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #9046 of 21093 |
I'm sure everyone's aware of the concept of iteratively taking differences
between consecutive terms in sequences of integers. (Ouch, I think I've just
made it sound more complicated than it is!) For a finite seqence, each line
of differences is one shorter than the one it's below, so that a triangle is
formed.
e.g.
1 4 9 16
3 5 7
2 2
0

Well, as this is the Primes List, let's throw primes into the mix - I only
want to see primes in the triangle. Of course, differences between odd
primes will be even, so I'm going to throw a factor of two into the mix too,
divide the differences between the above terms by two to form subsequent
rows. Note, explicitly, zero and one are _not_ primes. I'm also only
interested in positive terms, which means that all of the rows must be
strictly increasing.

E.g.
3 7
2
and
5 19 41
7 11
2
are both valid triangles.

But neither of
3 5 or 2 2
1 0
are valid.

For each triangle size, what's the smallest total sum of all terms?
e.g. the first valid one above has a term sum of 12, and the second one has
a term sum of 85.
Can you find a 3-triangle with a sum less than 71?

Variations:
a) What happens if I forbid any prime from being repeated in the triangle?
Does the minimum 3-triangle have a term sum of 85, as seen above?

b) What happens if I now permit negative primes into the triangle formed
by taking (half) the signed difference in the usual right-left order (as all
the examples above). This time I'm interested in minimising the sum of the
absolute values in the tables.
e.g.
-13 -7 7
3 7
2 abs. sum = 39
Why do I want to forbid repetitions (i.e. include variation (a) too)
when I adopt this variation? When I do forbid repetitions, what's
the minimum absolute sum?

Is there a general rule for constructing these minimally-summing triangles?
(It's not immedately clear from the 2- and 3-sized solutions I have.)
If not, then what's the largest triangle that someone is prepared to assert
cannot be bettered?

As you can tell, I have essential chores to do, and am doing anything to
avoid doing them! :-)

Phil


=====
First rule of Factor Club - you do not talk about Factor Club.
Second rule of Factor Club - you DO NOT talk about Factor Club.
Third rule of Factor Club - when the cofactor is prime, or you've trial-
divided up to the square root of the number, the factoring is over.

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Fri Oct 4, 2002 4:51 pm

thefatphil
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Forward
Message #9046 of 21093 |
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I'm sure everyone's aware of the concept of iteratively taking differences between consecutive terms in sequences of integers. (Ouch, I think I've just made it...
Phil Carmody
thefatphil
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Oct 4, 2002
4:51 pm

... No, and I'd be very surprised if anyone else can either. A 3-triangle, by definition, has 6 primes in it. In the case of a sum less than 71, the primes...
Nathan Russell
pakaran42
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Oct 4, 2002
5:12 pm

11 17 31 7 3 2 One big point: 11 17 31 3 7 2 Two tiny points: i) I think the reduction by 2 should be recorded as a metric of any said triangle. This...
Jon Perry
jon_perryuk
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Oct 4, 2002
5:29 pm

... <AOL/> ... But with 2, 3, 5, 7, and 11 less than 11.83, that's not on it's own a reason to think that there is no such solution. ... Yup, good catch (but...
Phil Carmody
thefatphil
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Oct 4, 2002
6:34 pm

... forced to 445. ... with ... Smallest sum triangles (original rules, no negative numbers): (Only the first row is given, you can fill in the rest...
jbrennen
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Oct 4, 2002
7:18 pm

... Are you using a computer to help? I'm toying with the idea of writing something to do a (really ineffient) search. The major question is how to be sure a...
Nathan Russell
pakaran42
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Oct 4, 2002
7:24 pm

... But of course. :-) ... For this application, nothing beats table lookup. Just create an array of BOOLEAN values and fill it in using the sieve of ...
jbrennen
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Oct 4, 2002
8:12 pm

... Agreed. Have you ever encountered those coding competitions (the ones that the likes of Patrick Demichel with their HP clusters win) for NP problems that...
Phil Carmody
thefatphil
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Oct 4, 2002
9:02 pm

... On a hunch: -The prime number theorem would explain a factor of maybe a little over 1 - not 1.5, and DEFINATELY not 60 -Issues around keeping numbers from...
Nathan Russell
pakaran42
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Oct 4, 2002
9:21 pm

... Correction - we're talking about a high power of the natural log, not the log itself. As such, the increase would be quite likely over 2 - but still not...
Nathan Russell
pakaran42
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Oct 4, 2002
9:24 pm

... I think that you are missing a big piece of the equation -- forget about prime numbers for a minute. How many 5-row triangles in positive odd integers are...
jbrennen
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Oct 4, 2002
9:50 pm

... My pathetic 4 row attempt was by hand. Methinks Jack's "cheating" :-). ... Carmichael numbers will in general only pass the weakest of the PRP tests, the...
Phil Carmody
thefatphil
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Oct 4, 2002
8:36 pm

... 6 rows: sum 6213 : (59,73,179,433,971,2617) 6 rows, no repetition: sum 9069 : (59,181,347,661,1499,3733)...
jbrennen
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Oct 4, 2002
7:40 pm

... Good stuff, Jack. Great stuff, even. Have you been exhaustive, or is this just the smallest found so far? The reason the task seemed so fun is that the...
Phil Carmody
thefatphil
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Oct 4, 2002
8:07 pm

... Exhaustive through 6 row triangles. Before starting a search for 7-row, I would optimize the program substantially. My totally unoptimized search for 5...
jbrennen
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Oct 4, 2002
8:27 pm

... My search method used pure brute force using one restriction, the second element of each row must be < 3571 The following is a complete list of all ...
Markus Frind
markusff
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Oct 7, 2002
5:03 am

... Why 3571? It could be that that limit isn't enough for finding the minimal 10-triangle. ... And what is the 9 then? Does it have any duplicated numbers? ...
Phil Carmody
thefatphil
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Oct 7, 2002
9:33 am

... I see no reason for the 3571 limit. In fact two of my earlier posted (claimed) minimal solutions from exhaustive searches are far from following it. Have I...
Jens Kruse Andersen
jkand71
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Oct 7, 2002
2:56 pm

I know my solution for 9 is not minimal my search was only exhaustive up to size 8. I am searching unsorted arrays consisting of 700,000 triangles, If i...
Markus Frind
markusff
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Oct 7, 2002
3:38 pm

... It's the version that includes 91 as an honorary guest prime number for the evening. ... You can tell who was doing this by hand, can't you?! Phil ===== ...
Phil Carmody
thefatphil
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Oct 4, 2002
8:42 pm

Ah that funny 91: the first composite that looks as if it might be prime. We (used to) know our tables up to 10 by 10. And it's hard to be fooled by a multiple...
David Broadhurst
djbroadhurst
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Oct 4, 2002
9:31 pm

... I have only computed with repetitions and I agree with Jack's solutions. 7 rows, repetition allowed, minimal, sum 30076: 919 1013 1231 1613 2311 4133...
Jens Kruse Andersen
jkand71
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Oct 6, 2002
4:13 am

... Hi-diddley-ho Jens - how long have you been on this list? No point forwarding the problem to alt.math.recreational then! :-D I like the way both of these...
Phil Carmody
thefatphil
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Oct 6, 2002
10:30 am

... I have read the list at groups.yahoo.com for 2 months. I only joined September 26 as jkand71. I apparently managed to offend someone in my second post but...
Jens Kruse Andersen
jkand71
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Oct 7, 2002
12:25 am

This one is smaller. SUM =4,680,077 757 1523 3061 5507 14389 43283 159541 586787 2163829 383 769 1223 4441 14447 58129...
Markus Frind
markusff
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Oct 7, 2002
1:35 am

Ooops, the problems of reading mail out of order... ... Great work both you you! They both show that, for a solution, you can't afford to ignore any particular...
Phil Carmody
thefatphil
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Oct 7, 2002
9:46 am

... Doh! ... It is conjectured that there will always be a solution, as the k-tuple conjecture promises you that you can always lie another row on top of a ...
Phil Carmody
thefatphil
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Oct 7, 2002
10:05 am

Okay, I have a pretty well optimized program... So, the complete list of minimal solutions through size 10 follows (only the first row of each triangle is...
jbrennen
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Oct 7, 2002
5:16 pm

Nice work on the size 10. I knew i was close, i didn't think i was that close! Your size 10 is my size 9 extended 1 more level. At 05:16 PM 10/7/2002...
Markus Frind
markusff
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Oct 7, 2002
7:21 pm
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