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News: Prozac works better when used with other therapies   Message List  
Reply Message #28578 of 29553 |
Re: [psychiatry-research] News: Prozac works better when used with other therapies

I think it is sometimes important to offer scientific support for a position at a time when people, like Glen, have only their opinions.

In contrast, it's not one paper that one an award, it's one from Neuroendocrinology Letters with ethologists from Vienna, and a monograph in the Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality, which was concurrently published as a chapter in the Handbook of the Evolution of Human Sexuality.

Also, since book publication of The Scent of Eros: Mysteries of Odor in Human Sexuality (1995),  I have continued to detail the direct link from sensory input to behavior and using across species comparisons of the evolved gene, cell, tissue, organ, organ system pathway, which the FDA is now recommending for use in attempts to develop new psychotherapeutics. 

The ASAM Public Policy Statement: Definition of Addiction takes a similar stand against psychology and basically states that people like Glen Sizemore must now pay attention to what neuroscientists have been trying to tell them about biologically based cause and effect. As I'm sure the medical practitioners here already know, behaviorists like Glen know nothing about medical practice. And it is clear that addiction is more than a behavioral disorder.

Glen is correct, however, the  FDA critical path initiative  does not mention anyone specifically. The focus is on the gene, cell, tissue, organ, organ system pathway. Given the rapid rate of progress towards understanding genetic predispositions and epigenetic effects of sensory stimuli from the environment, I don't think the scientifically illiterate behaviorists have much of value to say, since rarely do they show even a glimmer of hope that they can understand how the salience of different sensory cues is established. For example, there is nothing inherently rewarding about dopamine, so why are behaviorists praying to a dopaminergic god of operant conditioning?

We should thank them for not causing more harm than they have, however, and watch for new treatment regimens to replace "reparative therapy" for variations on the theme of sexual orientation, and for "rebirthing theapy" -- a practice responsible for the death by smothering of a 10 y/o girl.  Unfortunately, someone must place the blame for such ridiculous ideas at their origins in radical behaviorism so those who are familiar with science can continue to make progress.

James V. Kohl
Medical laboratory scientist

On 12/31/2011 10:07 AM, Glen Sizemore wrote:
 

As usual (but not so on this particular NG), we see a post from Kohl filled with gibberish and misinformation. The only thing lacking to make this post like most of his others is the announcement that a paper he wrote once won an award. I have no intention to respond to Kohl directly, or to respond to his post in detail but, as an example of the deception and misinformation that characterizes Kohl's insipid gibberish is this: "It is odd that the FDA critical path initiative fails to mention the importance of Skinner's work..." As far as I can see, the Initiative fails to mention anyone specifically. Further, if Kohl knew anything about drug development (development of drugs that are behaviorally active) he would know that the combination of behavior analysis and pharmacology has figured prominently. Though it isn't everything to the field, one need only consider, for example, the role of drug self-administration in non-human animals in addiction research. Drug self-administration, of course, involves drugs functioning as reinforcers for responses like lever-pressing. It is not, of course, just the apparatus that is the same, the whole language of operant conditioning transfers; some of the earliest research was carried out by researchers trained in the behavior analytic tradition. The Wikipedia article is decent:



In addition to drug-self-administration, the whole field of the neurobiology of "reward pathways" relies critically on behavior analysis. How could it not? This is a gigantic field, of course, and it is thought relevant to many behavioral disorders. But you will find, if Kohl continues to spew his misguided and narcissistic gibberish (which he almost certainly will), that any paper concerning behavior or the neurobiology of behavior  that doesn't mention pheromones/olfactory stimuli is relegated to the trash heap. Now, I admit that I am critical of much of neurobiology on conceptual grounds (cf Bennett and Hacker etc.) but, for Kohl, his "award-winning paper" (Kohl will, no doubt, get around to this soon enough) sets the standard for "biology" in his alleged mind, and 99.9999% of what anybody else does is trash.

In addition to its role in basic research on behavior qua behavior and neurobiology, behavior analysis has also produced one of the few technologies of behavior.


Kohl also evinces, though this is hardly unique to him, a serious abuse of the term "biological." For the chronically misinformed the term "biological" is synonymous with "physiological."  But even Kohl's beloved FDA initiative, at least according to Kohl, includes research carried out at the level of the whole organism. That, of course, is the level at which behavior analysis operates. The notion that operant conditioning is "not biological" is one of the many bizarre aberrations that Kohl demonstrates. Anyway, though, I'll leave Kohl to speak for himself. 


From: james kohl <jvkohl@...>
To: psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [psychiatry-research] News: Prozac works better when used with other therapies

 
Glen,

It is odd that the FDA critical path initiative fails to mention the importance of Skinner's work and I didn't seen anything on observation of behavior. Instead, they seem to be pushing for a systems biology approach to pharmacogenomics such that not just gene expression is considered, but also protein levels, metabolites, etc. The basis for this approach is research conducted at every level --gene, cell, tissue, organ, and organism�and at every stage of life, from conception through death.  I think that behaviorists may have missed out on this approach because they focus on training animals instead of the biological basis for their behavior. In any case, I think the days of giving someone a treat (or a psychotherapeutic drug) and observing behavioral changes to see if it works are long gone. The side effects of that approach were literally killing people, albeit indirectly in most cases.

James V. Kohl

--- On Fri, 12/30/11, Glen Sizemore <gmsizemore2@...> wrote:
<snip>


-- James V. Kohl
Medical laboratory scientist
ASCP AMT ASCLS
Independent researcher
Currently writing for
Socioaffective Neuroscience & Pscyhology


Mon Jan 2, 2012 3:32 am

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Message #28578 of 29553 |
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Ahh...the doggy has missed the point. Alas! The issue I raise does not concern anatomy vs. physiology - structure vs. function - it involves various levels of...
Glen Sizemore
gmsizemore2 Offline Send Email
Jan 2, 2012
1:42 am

I think it is sometimes important to offer scientific support for a position at a time when people, like Glen, have only their opinions. In contrast, it's not...
JVKohl
jvkohl... Offline Send Email
Jan 2, 2012
5:42 am

Well, ya' got me there, Jimmy me boy. Those wacky behaviorists and their rebirthing protocol. And don't even get me started on their efforts to change...
Glen Sizemore
gmsizemore2 Offline Send Email
Jan 2, 2012
10:45 am

Glen, In your opinion, when and how is the incentive salience of any cue used in operant conditionig established? If you have any opinions about such thing, we...
james kohl
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Jan 2, 2012
9:40 pm

Hi James, i’ve been away and missed much of this, but am not sure what you mean by the ‘incentive salience of [a] ..cue”. Are you asking what makes a...
Glynn Owens
g.owens@... Send Email
Jan 3, 2012
10:39 pm

... Food odors and social odors are the primary reinforcers across all species. That's biological fact, although some people think they have escaped the...
JVKohl
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Jan 4, 2012
12:39 am

Thanks James, and sorry about the odd characters in the email - some kind of glitch between systems? They started out as simple apostrophes and the like.........
Glynn Owens
g.owens@... Send Email
Jan 4, 2012
6:08 am

Thanks Glynn, I like the phrase: "the 'range of convenience' of operant conditioning". It exemplifies the clash I perceive between the biology of behavioral...
james kohl
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Jan 4, 2012
11:19 pm

Thanks James, I’m not sure about the aesthetics of doing things just to irritate others, but chacun a son gout, I suppose. In what sense does “training”...
Glynn Owens
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Jan 5, 2012
4:52 am

Your guess seems to accurately assess the results from different disciplines that detail the evolved biological basis of human behavior. I'm not sure what the...
james kohl
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Jan 5, 2012
12:28 pm

Hi James, I too come from a medical laboratory science background; I first started working in medical labs in 1967. Both MLS and behaviourism have of course...
Glynn Owens
g.owens@... Send Email
Jan 5, 2012
8:38 pm

I started in 1974; remained a generalist, and may have blinders on with regard to the behaviorists or psychology, in general. The lack of any "practice...
james kohl
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Jan 6, 2012
3:20 am

It would be hard to disagree with the need for professional standards, but of course behaviourism isn't a profession, it's a philosophy. As with any area of...
Glynn Owens
g.owens@... Send Email
Jan 6, 2012
8:17 am

My impression is that the philosophy of behaviorism is widely incorporated into the practice of psychotherapy. It is important to any scientific approach to...
james kohl
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Jan 6, 2012
11:51 am

An interesting assertion, but that's all it is. It seem to me akin to asserting that to learn to drive a car one must learn how internal combustion engines...
Glynn Owens
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Jan 7, 2012
12:23 pm

I think it is more than an assertion. Organisms are genetically predisposed to learn how to live and they optimize their survival by learning species-specific...
james kohl
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Jan 7, 2012
10:06 pm

Bad example given Sheldon’s use of operant conditioning to change Penny’s behaviour (even if he doesn’t know what negative reinforcement is.... :-D)....
Glynn Owens
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Jan 8, 2012
10:03 pm

One does need to know the biology to *understand* the process of learning. One does not need to know anything about physics to learn how to drive a car or send...
JVKohl
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Jan 9, 2012
2:19 am

But understanding occurs at different levels. We understand in *terms* of other variables - these need not be biological - or physical in the example of car...
Glynn Owens
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Jan 9, 2012
4:44 am

We disagree! Understanding of biology does not occur in terms of other variables outside their biological context. There will be no agreement between us if you...
james kohl
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Jan 9, 2012
12:57 pm

This is a silly argument. There is lots of evidence on the effectiveness of psychotherapy, and none of the questions about who makes an effective therapist...
Fred Weizmann
fweizmann Offline Send Email
Jan 9, 2012
11:15 pm

Ah, Fred, you make excellent points so much more effectively and concisely than I do! Cheers, Glynn From: psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com...
Glynn Owens
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Jan 9, 2012
11:19 pm

The patient outcomes that might otherwise have involved biological expertise are not actually controlled for in your assessment, are they Fred? Do...
JVKohl
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Jan 10, 2012
8:41 am

One might, of course, ask some converse questions. What happens when those with no knowledge of psychology try to treat medical problems? The answer is that...
Glynn Owens
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Jan 10, 2012
11:26 am

I think your excellent (i.e., "think twice") point must be taken in the context of who sees who for what. People do not see psychologists for the treatment of...
JVKohl
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Jan 11, 2012
12:59 pm

Exactly: people do not see psychologists for the treatment of medical problems - or biological ones for that matter. The knowledge of the biological...
Glynn Owens
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Jan 11, 2012
10:37 pm

humans absolutely DO see psychotherapists for medical problems, although it's usually adjunctive to medical treatment. examples include chronic pain,...
Psycho Dogg
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Jan 14, 2012
10:54 pm

Dogg, how about psychology and medicin being two sides of the same coin? /Sigvard 2012/1/14 Psycho Dogg <psychotic_dogg@...>...
Sigvard Lingh
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Jan 14, 2012
11:28 pm

... Dogg, how about psychology and medicin being two sides of the same coin? /Sigvard-------------------------------------------- My approach to the medical...
james kohl
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Jan 15, 2012
3:53 am

...but medicine is irrelevant to a whole lot of psychology, and psychology is irrelevant to a whole lot of medicine. They're two different disciplines which...
Glynn Owens
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Jan 15, 2012
7:53 am
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