Nathan Roy wrote:

> I looked at the document you suggested, and was reminded on another
> question. What is the "w-curl"?

**If you have instaled Dan Smith' Tengwar fonts, look at the
mentioned article, I added some notes below; no.12 shows this.

> There are several symbols in the tengwar
> font that I do not know the meanings of, including three sets of curl
> add-ons. Where can I find out about these?

**I think you can try Dan Smith' page and his helpfiles:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar.htm
and also try this:
http://user.tninet.se/~xof995c/

> The word "naamon" is the plural of "naamo", which I found in the quenya
> corpus wordlist. If I remember correctly, it means "something". Doesn't
> really matter.

**It is "a judge" or "a person, somebody".

> Anyway, I have been working on a simple story for my language club with Greg
> Dyke. We have discussed the first two paragraphs, and now that I learned how
> to operate in Egroups, I can send it to the rest of you!

**Fine.


Alda

> Nathan Roy wrote:
>
> > Man naa i cilme tengwaron ‘oore’ ar ‘roomen’ mi teecale?
>
> **Lertalye cenda os sine tengwar mi Lavir Salon centa
> natsemenyasse estaina Alalme. [You can read about these symbols in
> David Salo's enquiry/*essay on my site called 'elm'.]
> http://www.inf.upol.cz/~mullerr/theresa/spelling.html
> [Sounds like an advertising, I know...]
>
> > Naar tehtar ve ‘quotation marks’, ‘parentheses’ ar ‘question marks’?
>
> **Maqueta Angasuule! Melis Tengwar: aiya, Angasuule, ma elye sinome?
> Ma polilye resta son?
> [Ask Angasuule! He loves Tengwar: hey, Angasuule, are you here?
> Can you help him?]
> [_resta-_ "aid, help", QL]
  Tancave! Nan quentuvanyes Ilquestanen, laa istan nyaritas Quenyanen
[Certainly! But I will say it in the Common Speech (English, I don't
know how to call it in Quenya), I don't know how to say it in Quenya
(what do you think of the use of -ita here?)].
  Well, about roomen and oore it's not difficult once one has memorized
where to use them, it's pretty much reduced to use oore before full
consonants (all consonants except 'w' and 'y') and finally, and use
roomen before vowels, 'w' and 'y' (which means inital 'r' is written
with roomen).
  As for quotation marks and parentheses I haven't seen any directly from
Tolkien (I lack many books), although I believe he used some in early (I
don't know how early) writings, when he was writing English with
tengwar, you can see them at Dan Smith's help files (I don't have the
address, but you can get it from Ardalambion's links). The question mark
looks like tinco with an extra bow *below* the first one, with the lower
end of the bow reaching and going to the left of the stem. Something
like this (I'm terrible with ASCII art, please forgive!):

  |--\
  |  |
  |-/
  |  \
  |  |
  |  /
  | /
  |/
  /
/

  Angasule

Ahhh... I thought that strange telco symbol looked like punctuation! Writing
systems that are nothing but one letter per sound can be so boring without
interesting surprises in them.

Here are all those curly tehtar I found using the "insert symbol" command
with Tengwar-Quenya font:


      ?             ?           ?          S        ?

       /--\          /--\        --\
----/---/     ----/   /      ----/      ----\        /
    _/                                      --/       /
                                                   \_/

Each one seems to have a counterpart for use with the upper-bowed tengwar as
well. Besides the "s-curl", I have no idea what any of them mean! Being the
kind of person who enjoys strange quirks, it would be great to find them
out.

I also remember some other symbols that looked like modified tengwar. One is
harma with an extra curl coming from the stem, and the other suule with the
letter two instead of a bow:

      /----|            |
     /     |            |
    |   /  |            |/--\
     \  \__|            |   /
                           /
                          /__

Well, if anyone knows some of these, I'd appreciate hearing about them.
Thanks for the info so far!

Cuiviendil (Nathan Roy)
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Well, first of all let me advice you to carry on this topic on
Elfscript, a mailing list dedicated to Tolkien's scripts, to subscribe
to it send a blank email to elfscript-subscribe@egroups.com and messages
should go to elfscript@egroups.com . AFAIK this list is meant for Quenya
texts, for general (and not-so-general) questions about Tolkien's
language there's Elfling, too.

> Here are all those curly tehtar I found using the "insert symbol" command
> with Tengwar-Quenya font:
>
>      ?             ?           ?          S        ?
>
>       /--\          /--\        --\
> ----/---/     ----/   /      ----/      ----\        /
>    _/                                      --/       /
>                                                   \_/
>
> Each one seems to have a counterpart for use with the upper-bowed tengwar as
> well. Besides the "s-curl", I have no idea what any of them mean! Being the
> kind of person who enjoys strange quirks, it would be great to find them
> out.
  All those are s-curls, there's just more than one shape for it.

> I also remember some other symbols that looked like modified tengwar. One is
> harma with an extra curl coming from the stem, and the other suule with the
> letter two instead of a bow:
>
>      /----|            |
>     /     |            |
>    |   /  |            |/--\
>     \  \__|            |   /
>                           /
>                          /__
  No idea about these, they may not be tengwar at all (like 0157 and 0158
;) ).
  Angasule

Alda tence:

> **Lertalye cenda os sine tengwar mi Lavir Salon centa natsemenyasse
estaina Alalme. [You can read about these symbols in David Salo's
enquiry/*essay on my site called 'elm'.]
  http://www.inf.upol.cz/~mullerr/theresa/spelling.html

Umin pole hire natsemen sina sii...ma naa URL sina anwa? Var ma naa i
veuro* atalantea?

[I cannot find this website now...is this URL correct? Or is the server
down?]

- Ainon

*Root BEW "follow, serve"; primitive _beuroo_ "follower, vassal, *servant"
(LR:352) > Quenya *_veuro_ "servant, server". Or perhaps it should be
*_veuma_ of a non-personal server?

Ainon tence:

>  http://www.inf.upol.cz/~mullerr/theresa/spelling.html
>
> Umin pole hire natsemen sina sii...ma naa URL sina anwa? Var ma naa i
> veuro* atalantea?

**Naalye anwa, laa inye pole hiritas. I veuma seeya atalantea,
umin ista manan. Quentuvan len iire naa maara ata. Hantan len.

[You are right, not even I can find it. The server seems [to be] down,
I do not know why. I will tell you when it is good again. Thank you.]


Alda

_seeya-_ "seem, look", N _thio-_ "to seem", THEE
_manan_ "for what [reason], why"
_hanta-_ "thank, give a thank", from _Eruhantale_ "Thanksgiving
to Eru"

>  http://www.inf.upol.cz/~mullerr/theresa/spelling.html

**Sii naa envinyanta.

[Now it is healed/repaired.]


Alda

Aiya meldor ar melder,

ma istalye sa alalmenyasse ea tyalie? A tece ananda
Quenya teema uu a-ron. Ma merilye tyale?
Teemanya:
_Cenin Isil hellesse._
I teema Ainonwa:
_Ilye i eleni voro silir menelesse._
A lelya ana:
http://www.inf.upol.cz/~mullerr/theresa/aplay.html

**
Hello friends,

do you know that on my elm [i.e. the name of my webpage]
there is a play? Write any longest Q sentence [_teema_ "row,
serie, *sentence] without a's. Do you want to play?
My sentence:
"I see the Moon on the sky."
The sentence by Helge:
"All the stars ever shine in the sky."
Go to:
...the url...
**


Alda

[I got Eleder's letter privately. I do not know if it was
purposefully or not, but I am replying to this list. Hope
Eleder will not be angry with me : ) ]


Eleder tenke:

> > ma istalye sa alalmenyasse ea tyalie? A tece ananda
> > Quenya teema uu a-ron. Ma merilye tyale?
>
> Ye!! . Sina ná témanya; méran sa haryuvalye limbe i hildi árissen :)

**Hantan len. Vany' anda teema! Merin sa neunar hilyuvar le.
[Thank you. Nice long sentence! I wish that others will follow you.]

> Inye mere tecie lissi tengwi, tuvien i inge meni ELM-esse sinome.

**Yee, sii naalye i inga! (Possibly rather _inye mere/merin tece_...)
[Yeah, now you are the first!]

> Hantalë i tyalienen :)

**Melin tyalier. Tucuvan teemalya alalmenyanna, ma lertan?
[I like games. I will bring/draw/add your sentence to my elm, can I?]


Alda

[I suspect that this belongs to this list, so I am forwarding it
here. If not, I apologize, Nathan, for publishing the privite
letter. I will comment it later when I ain't so busy. -- Alda]

I got your last post on the Quenya mailing list and decided to try my hand
at writing in Elvish without the letter A. Here is what I came up with... I
don't know if it is completely correct, and there is more than one clause,
but here you go:

Quentero, “Sii utuulien luumenn’ omentielvo, sinome Oiolosseo, tienen et i
nuumellon Endoreo: imbe voronde oronti, ter i eressie neni lingwiloocion, o
undu pirucendie eleni mii hiise iluuve.”

He said, “Now I have come to the hour of our meeting, here on Mount
Everwhite, over paths from the lands of Middle Earth: between steadfast
mountains, through the lonely waters of sea-sepents, and beneath gently
whirling stars in the misty universe.”

If the grammar is too iffy, or the words a bit unreliable, it's because I am
trying to string together as much nonsense as possible into one sentance!
The meaning actually works out though; sounds like someone is meeting Manwe
after having traveled over the Great Sea from Middle Earth. (Poetic too...)

Namaarie, Cuiviendil (Nathan Roy)

P.S. Did you get my translation of the first chapter of Matthew? I know you
all actually have adult jobs and such, so just tell me if no one is really
working on it and I'll remain patient!
________________________________________________________________________________\
_____
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

Nathan wrote:

Quentero, "Sii utuulien luumenn' omentielvo, sinome Oiolosseo, tienen et i
nuumellon Endoreo: imbe voronde oronti, ter i eressie neni lingwiloocion, o

undu pirucendie eleni mii hiise iluuve."

=

He said, "Now I have come to the hour of our meeting, here on Mount
Everwhite, over paths from the lands of Middle Earth: between steadfast
mountains, through the lonely waters of sea-sepents, and beneath gently
whirling stars in the misty universe."

If the grammar is too iffy, or the words a bit unreliable, it's because I
am
trying to string together as much nonsense as possible into one sentance!

** "He said" = either _quenteero_ with a long _ee_ or _quentes_ with the
short 3rd person ending, or (best of all) the attested form _eques_, "(s)he
said/says", used to introduce quotations.

** I don't recognize _nuumellon_ = "from the lands". Do you mean
_noor(i)ellon_? And why not _Oiolossesse_ for "on Mount Everwhite"?
Locativic genitive (_Oiolosseo_) would truly be a novelty... :)

** _Hiise_ = noun "mist" rather than adjective "misty", but you could of
course claim that _hiise iluuve_ is a loose compound, referring to a "mist
universe" (!)

> P.S. Did you get my translation of the first chapter of Matthew? I know
you  all actually have adult jobs and such, so just tell me if no one is
really  working on it and I'll remain patient!

** Yes, I got it, and I even plan to comment on it, but I am working on
something else now (which I hope you and everybody will see before X-mas).

- Helge Fausaknger

Nathan tence:

> Quentero, "Sii utuulien luumenn' omentielvo, sinome Oiolosseo, tienen et i
> nuumellon Endoreo: imbe voronde oronti, ter i eressie neni lingwiloocion, o
> undu pirucendie eleni mii hiise iluuve."

> He said, "Now I have come to the hour of our meeting, here on Mount
> Everwhite, over paths from the lands of Middle Earth: between steadfast
> mountains, through the lonely waters of sea-sepents, and beneath gently
> whirling stars in the misty universe."

**"here on Mt. Everwhite" _sinome Oiolossesse_ (looks a bit
strange...) rather than _sinome Oiolosseo_.
_tienen_ would be the instrumental "by/with a path", precisely
"over paths" would be _or tier_. [A "puzzle" for everyone:
how would instr. pl. of _tie_ look like? Apparently not
_tieinen_ or yes?]
Rather _Endooreo_ instead of _Endoreo_.
_o undu_ "and under", you meant _ar undu_? But it contains an a,
but "and" could be omitted.
_pirucendie_, sg. _pirucendea_ is of course Qenya form.

Anyway, it is cool! I will certainly add it (just tell me
your opinion about the comments). Who will beat you?


Alda

Aiya!

Si méralyë, pólalyë tulë ar cenda vinya lairë Quenyanen Lukas Novako mi
'Gwaith-i-Pheddain: http://go.to/galadhorn

'If you want, you can come and see new Quenya poem of Lukas Novak at
"Gwaith-i-Pheddain": http://go.to/galadhorn

Ilya,

Alyanorno
Ryszard Derdzinski


maggot@... or galadhorn@...
http://www.kki.net.pl/~galadorn/language.htm

**************************************************************
Richard = GALADHORN < gala- 'prosperous, rich, blessed' (LR 357) + dorn
'stiff, tough, *hard' (WJ 413)

**************************************************************

In my recent message I wrote in Quenya:

Si méralyë [...]
'If you want [...]

It is of course a mistake. In place of _si_ there should be Quenya
hypothetical _*ai_ 'if' [from Quenya _aiquen_ "if anybody, whoever"
(WJ:372)] and all sentence:

Ai méralyë, pólalyë tulë ar cenda vinya lairë Quenyanen Lukas Novako mi
'Gwaith-i-Pheddain: http://go.to/galadhorn

'If you want, you can come and see new Quenya poem of Lukas Novak at
"Gwaith-i-Pheddain": http://go.to/galadhorn

The _si_ comes from Spanish, and of course shouldn't be there. Sorry!

Yours,

Ryszard Derdzinski
(Galadhorn)

maggot@... or galadhorn@...
http://www.kki.net.pl/~galadorn/language.htm

**************************************************************
Richard = GALADHORN < gala- 'prosperous, rich, blessed' (LR 357) + dorn
'stiff, tough, *hard' (WJ 413)

**************************************************************

Hi,

I'm new to this group, so I wanted to introduce myself with a
translation that I made from LotR. It is the hymn to Elbereth
Gilthoniel starting with "Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!"

It is a first attempt at Quenya, so please correct any mistakes you
may find.

---
Niwispan! Niwispan! A Kher anpoy!
    A tâ telés i ayári ndûiva!
A Kál emmin ranir
    Ëässen galadiva lanna!

Gilthoniel! A Elbereth!
    Nir anpoyi khedily, nir ansil swesilya!
Niwispan! Niwispan! Glinamma elyen.
    Nonna teles ayar.

A eleni Gûnarra Coranarissë
    Sil manen erenen eredië
Pelessë waiwava nár sil-poy.
    Thetammë lotha telepva wana.

A Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
    Si nowommë, nor ndorla
Teles ndorssë unu galasse,
    Sil-elenva teles Ayari Nduiva.
---

Alak.

>From: alak_leafblower@...
>Subject: [quenya] A first try a Quenya
>Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:28:03 -0000

**you might do better by sending this to the elfling list.  This list
(Quenya) is for speaking *in* Quenya.

>Hi,
>
>I'm new to this group, so I wanted to introduce myself with a
>translation that I made from LotR. It is the hymn to Elbereth
>Gilthoniel starting with "Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!"
>
>It is a first attempt at Quenya, so please correct any mistakes you
>may find.
>
>---
>Niwispan! Niwispan! A Kher anpoy!
>    A tâ telés i ayári ndûiva!
>A Kál emmin ranir
>    Ëässen galadiva lanna!

**Um, words that begin with g and nd don't normally occur in Quenya.  The
word for lady in Quenya is just heeri.  (the double e marks an e with an
accent, this convention is used on email lists because many people will see
your diacrits as a jumble).


>Gilthoniel! A Elbereth!

**these names are attested as Tintalle Varda in Quenya.  I think I'll just
stop. I don't know where you got anpoy.

** Lisa Star
** LisaStar@...
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Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Aiya nildor ar nilder,

aiquen sinome? Firne men sina? Sii iire haryalme Ainondo alta carma
Quenya tengwesto (*)? Coirea Quenya var vanwa Quenya?

(*) Aiquen ista malda quetta tan? Ainon, isiitielye Quenya
esseo carmalyan?

Ai, quettar, polilye quete men ammelda Quenya quettalya?

Inya naa _laurea_; ammelde hlonyar nar 'l', 'r' ar 'a', ar ohlon
'au' -- yee, melin Namaarie ar yesserya: _Ai laurie lantar lassi
suurinen_! Ar elye?


Alda (manan ilquen halda?)

at. Aiquen ahlaarie vinya linde Rindanen estaina 'Alassea cilya
(Mine naa faarea)'? Vanima linde, anwa? Yee, yee, sina lelya
Quenderin lambellon pella nan...
A tyave yando lindesse 'An hehtanyel' Taltaron!

--
**Merin melme var qualme, tana ta. (Matilda, _Leon: Canta Quenta_)


*****


Hello my friends [mas. + fem.],

[is] anyone here? This place died? Now when we have Helge's
great [covering both sences] work about Quenya grammar (*)?
Living Quenya or dead Quenya?
[*_carma_ "work, something made", cf. _parma_ "book, something
composed"; _var_ "or", from Qenyaqetsa, might be invalid]

(*) [Does] anyone know better word for it [sc. for 'course']?
Helge, have you thought about a Quenya name for your work?
[_malda_ "better", see last Tyalie Tyelellieeva; *_isiitie_
"have known"]

Hm, words, can you tell us your most beloved [sc. 'favorite']
Quenya word?

Mine is _laurea_ [= 'golden']; my most beloved sounds are 'l'
and 'a', and diphtong 'au' -- yeah, I like Namaarie and its
beginning: _Ai laurie lantar lassi suurinen_! And you?
[*_inya_ "mine"]


Ales (why [is] everyone hidden?)
[*_manan_ "why, for what [reason]"]

ps. Has anyone heard the new song by Orbital called 'Funny break
(One is enough)'? A beautiful song, is it not? Ok, ok, this goes
from beyond the Elvish languages but...
Taste/try also the album 'Since I left you' by The Avalanches!
[at. = _apa tecina_ "post scriptum"; I used _Rinda_ "circular",
no better word; _yando_ "also" from QQ, might be invalid;
*_lindesse_ "album, collection of songs"; I used nominalized
_talta_ "slide down" for "avalanche"]

--
**I want love or death, that's it. (Mathilda, _Léon: Version Intégrale_)

>From: Ales Bican <bican@...>

>Aiya nildor ar nilder,
>
>aiquen sinome? Firne men sina? Sii iire haryalme Ainondo alta carma
>Quenya tengwesto (*)? Coirea Quenya var vanwa Quenya?

**Sorry, this isn't in quenya, but I'm here and would like to see this list
revived.  I'll sit down with the texts and try to say something intelligent
--in quenya-- in my next post!

** Lisa Star

_________________________________________________________________
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Ales Bican wrote:

> [is] anyone here? This place died? Now when we have Helge's
> great [covering both sences] work about Quenya grammar?
> Living Quenya or dead Quenya?

** Revived Quenya, I hope... The problem of keeping alive a list devoted to
actually writing in Quenya for its own sake is of course that the people
who can readily put together a Quenya text, don't really have much to say
to one another. Obviously, the more people who actually know Quenya, the
easier would it be to maintain an all-Quenya list. So our problem is
educational, and I hope the course I am working out will be helpful.

> (*) [Does] anyone know better word for it [sc. for 'course']?

You used _tengwesta_ "grammar". No, I can't think of any better word. I
wish we had any Quenya words (or at least primitive roots) meaning "teach"
or "learn".

> Hm, words, can you tell us your most beloved [sc. 'favorite']
> Quenya word?
> Mine is _laurea_ [= 'golden']; my most beloved sounds are 'l'
> and 'a', and diphtong 'au' -- yeah, I like Namaarie and its
> beginning: _Ai laurie lantar lassi suurinen_!

I, too, tend to think of A as the most beautiful vowel; I also regard L as
the most beautiful consonant. On the other hand, I tend to think of U as
the ugliest vowel. The diphthong _au_ contains a strange tension...but yes,
the overall effect is pleasing. (But _ai_ is more attractive.)

> ps. Has anyone heard the new song by Orbital called 'Funny break
> (One is enough)'? A beautiful song, is it not? Ok, ok, this goes
> from beyond the Elvish languages but...

Ai! úmien hlaritas!
("Alas! I haven't heard it!" - just to have at least one fragment of Quenya
in this posting!)

- Ainon

Ainon tence:

> > [is] anyone here? This place died? Now when we have Helge's
> > great [covering both sences] work about Quenya grammar?
> > Living Quenya or dead Quenya?
>
> ** Revived Quenya, I hope...

**Merin sa men sina termaruva Tolkíno alcar enyalien. (To paraphrase
the Merin sentence and Cirion's Oath. *smile*)

> The problem of keeping alive a list devoted to
> actually writing in Quenya for its own sake is of course that the people
> who can readily put together a Quenya text, don't really have much to say
> to one another.

**Yes, I know this is the main problem. Had we enough words we could
talk at least about Quenya in Quenya. But I do not want to believe that
we do not have anything to tell to anyone.

> Obviously, the more people who actually know Quenya, the
> easier would it be to maintain an all-Quenya list. So our problem is
> educational, and I hope the course I am working out will be helpful.

**I believe it will help. But practice is also a very important thing!

> > (*) [Does] anyone know better word for it [sc. for 'course']?
>
> You used _tengwesta_ "grammar". No, I can't think of any better word. I
> wish we had any Quenya words (or at least primitive roots) meaning "teach"
> or "learn".

**I think you once suggested *_saita-_ "teach", lit. "make know,
understand" (SAY). But it is not genuine Tolkien.

> > Hm, words, can you tell us your most beloved [sc. 'favorite']
> > Quenya word?
> > Mine is _laurea_ [= 'golden']; my most beloved sounds are 'l'
> > and 'a', and diphtong 'au' -- yeah, I like Namaarie and its
> > beginning: _Ai laurie lantar lassi suurinen_!
>
> I, too, tend to think of A as the most beautiful vowel; I also regard L as
> the most beautiful consonant. On the other hand, I tend to think of U as
> the ugliest vowel. The diphthong _au_ contains a strange tension...but yes,
> the overall effect is pleasing. (But _ai_ is more attractive.)

**I do not like U, either. Seems that Tolkien thought alike: Quenya is
full of a's and the words containing u's are usually bad (like _úmea_,
_urko_, _ulundo_). And if lots of a's is a mark of beautiful language,
then Primitive Quendian must have been even more beautiful -- y'know
those syncopes and reductions of a's. (Oh no, it cannot have been more
beautiful, all those aspirated stops, phew, I do not like them,
especially kh.)
AI is also a very nice sound: I prefer _laire_ to _laure_, but _laurea_
is above all. : )

I think this can be written in Quenya, too -- it is not so difficult!

Umin mele U yando. Séya sa Tolkín sinte ve me: Quenya ná quanta
a-hlonion ar i quettar i haryar u-hloni nar sanyave saure (ve _úmea_,
_urko_, _ulundo_). Ar intyala sa úve a-hlonion ná tengwe vanima
lambeo, Quenderin né vanimalda -- istal tane racine ar vanwe hloni.
(Ai lá, úmes pole vanimalda, ilye tane hwesta-patacar, ai, umin melitat,
hérave kh.)
AI ná vanima hlon yando: laitan _laire_ or _laure_, nan _laurea_ ná
or ilya.

[*_séya-_ "look, seem, appear"; *_sanyave_ "normally, usually";
_intyala sa_ "supposing that"; *_vanimalda_ "more beautiful";
_úmes pole vanimalda_ "it could not [be] more beautiful"; *_hlon_
"sound"; *_hérave_ "chiefly, mainly"; _yando_ "also"]

> > ps. Has anyone heard the new song by Orbital called 'Funny break
> > (One is enough)'? A beautiful song, is it not? Ok, ok, this goes
> > from beyond the Elvish languages but...
>
> Ai! úmien hlaritas!
> ("Alas! I haven't heard it!" - just to have at least one fragment of Quenya
> in this posting!)

**Vanya linde!


Alda

ps. Ainon, úmielye quete men ammelda Quenya quettalya!
[Helge, you have not told us your favorite Quenya word!]

--
**I want love or death, that's it. (Mathilda, _Léon: Version Intégrale_)

----------------------------------------------------

vinya yoquetien!

aiya! naan vinya sina 1yoquetien.
essenya naa Seo Sanghyeon. naan 2Corea.

sii hiiran quettar ho Quettaparma Quenyanna.
ma naas voronda? ma istalye 3malda quettaparma?

epesse, eldarinwa essenya naa Earraame.
melin i ear, raamar, ar ciryar! ma nas faarea
4tyarwe essecilmeon? nas ata maara laamatyaavenyan.

neen Eldaquetesse ar hirne sina yoquetie
noo uulimbe reer. sii naan anwave alassea!

Aldan:

inye 4larta cenie linwenyo(Firinnor) ELM-esse.
ma lartuvan tenna Ambar-metta? ^^
(ve tencen mi Nainie Lambengolmoin...)

1 "yoquetie" naa vinyacaarienya. ma naas maara?
2 carnen quetta "Corea" ve {adjective} "Core"on.
   "Core" naa Korea. naan 5naira, nan uumin pole
   hire quetta {adjective}...
3 cenin sina quetta sinome minya. mallo nas?
4 hoo Parma Penyane Quettaron.
5 Alda nyarne nin quetta "naira" mi Eldaquete #5244.

elya Earraamello.

----------------------------------------------------

New to the list!

Hello! I am new to this 1list.
My name is Seo Sanghyeon. I am 2Korean.

Now I am finding words from Quettaparma Quenyanna.
Is it reliable? Do you know 3better wordlist?

Nickname, my Elvish name is Earraame.
I like the sea, wings, and ships! Isn't it enough
4reason of name-choosing? It is also nice to my sound-taste.

I was in Elfling and found this list
before not-many days. Now I am really happy!

To Ales Bican:

I 4wait to see my poem(Firinnor) at ELM.
Should I wait until the end of the world? ^^
(as I wrote in Lament for Loremasters of Tounges...)

1 "yoquetie" is my coining. Is it fit?
2 I made word "Corea" as adjective of "Core".
   "Core" is Korea. I am sorry, but I couldn't
   find word "adjective"...
3 I see this word here first. Where is it from?
4 From Parma Penyane Quettaron.
5 Ales Bican told me word "naira" in Elfling #5244.

From your Earraame.

----------------------------------------------------

tencen: [I wrote:]

> Aldan:
> inye 4larta cenie linwenyo(Firinnor) ELM-esse.
> ma lartuvan tenna Ambar-metta? ^^

neen raica! sii polin cene linwenya nastemenelyasse.
[I was wrong! Now I can see my poem at your website.]

elya Earraamello

Earraame tence:

> vinya yoquetien!
>
> aiya! naan vinya sina 1yoquetien.
> essenya naa Seo Sanghyeon. naan 2Corea.

**Aiya Earraame! Vanya cenie vinya Quenya-queto sinome imbe me.
[Hi Earraame! Nice to see a new Quenya-speaker here among us.]
[*_queto_ "speaker", actually _quende_ would be "speaker", but we
are not elves.]

> sii hiiran quettar ho Quettaparma Quenyanna.
> ma naas voronda? ma istalye 3malda quettaparma?

**Laa, umin ista malda quettaparma. Ainon ontane ta, naas
maara tengwe voronweo.
[No, I do not know better wordlist. Helge created it, that is
a good mark of reliability.]

> epesse, eldarinwa essenya naa Earraame.
> melin i ear, raamar, ar ciryar! ma nas faarea
> 4tyarwe essecilmeon? nas ata maara laamatyaavenyan.

**Maara len.
[Good for you.]

> neen Eldaquetesse ar hirne sina yoquetie
> noo uulimbe reer. sii naan anwave alassea!

**Maybe better and more elegant way would be _reeli yaa_
"some days ago", hm?

> Aldan:
>
> inye 4larta cenie linwenyo(Firinnor) ELM-esse.
> ma lartuvan tenna Ambar-metta? ^^
> (ve tencen mi Nainie Lambengolmoin...)

**Nees tanome. Polilye yuhta _alalme_ ve Quenya esse yando.
[It is there. You can use _alalme_ (sc. "elm-tree") ve the Quenya
name.] [*_yuhta_ "use"]
I applogize it took so long. But the site is not mine, it belongs to a
friend of mine, and I do not have a direct access to it (I have never
asked for it, I would get it, but I have no need of it), so every time
I want to add something there, I must send it to my friend and he will
upload it. And he was not at home for some time and then I was not
at home for some time. But it is there, so everyone can look there.
http://www.inf.upol.cz/~mullerr/theresa/
I admit I could have chosen a better way, I could have chosen my
own place for my website, but I do not like popping up windows
and ads.

> 1 "yoquetie" naa vinyacaarienya. ma naas maara?

**Might be. Btw, _vinyacaarie_ should probably be rather _vinyacarie_.
Note _enyalien_, not **_enyaalien_.

> 2 carnen quetta "Corea" ve {adjective} "Core"on.
>   "Core" naa Korea. naan 5naira, nan uumin pole
>   hire quetta {adjective}...

**I would like more _Corea_ for _Korea_, but as you like. : )

> 3 cenin sina quetta sinome minya. mallo nas?

**I will lower to using English... *smile* Some time ago Lisa Star
published a new issue of her journal Tyalie Tyelellieeva. In this
issue, she brought an article on comparatives in Quenya. The material
she used for this article was called CB Grammar. Briefly: the
comparative is formed from the positive by adding _-lda_, the
superlative from the comparative by adding _-n_ (or from the positive
by adding _-ldan_, which is the same). So
_malina_ "yellow"
*_malinalda_ "more yellow"
*_malinaldan_ "most yellow"
(These examples are just examples based on the information provided.)
As for _malda_ "better", this is probably an 'irregular' form,
and it is found in the phrase _malda la muntar_ "better than
nothing".
You might have heard about this matter on Elfling recently. It
was Candon McLean who brought more light on the CB Grammar. It is
implying from his words that the reliability of the Grammar is
*very* questionable. We cannot be sure whether it is really as
Tolkien meant it, so everything from the CB Grammar may be wrong.
So the word _malda_ may be nonsense and cannot be relied on. On the
other hand, we have not been provided with any better word for
"better".

> 2 I made word "Corea" as adjective of "Core".
>   "Core" is Korea. I am sorry, but I couldn't
>   find word "adjective"...

**There is none as far as I am aware.


Alda

--
**I want love or death, that's it. (Mathilda, _Léon: Version Intégrale_)

aiya aiquen cuina sinome! ^^

apa anda loar lartieva, enquiet yaa, nelde-rasta(?)
reesse Cermieva, Corea {translate}-ie 1Heru Million-wa
2latyane Corelienna vanimave. sii haryas ilye
{appendix}-i. teli uumir ea men an sii -- D,E ar F.
parmacaaro Laurea-olwa carne sina maara carme.

Coresse 3aaye {translate}-ie Yemun-o, i naa uuvoorima
ar {prologue}, {appendix}-i pena. car i quen cenuva
Curumollo taltieryasse, laa taapollor Nuumello!

1 Eldaquet #4598, EJK tence sa Tolciin {translate}-ne
   esse parmaryo ve "Heru Million".
2 cennen sina quetta er mi 4"Gwaith-i-Phethdain". mallo
   nas? ar manen 4"Gwaith-i-Phethdain" tana te -lle, laa
   -lye? (mi quentele "merin sa harya[lle] alasse!")
3 hoo enwina talma AYA... 5cendanen sin hoo Appleyard-o
   "Quenya Grammar Reexamined".
4 man nuuva "Gwaith-i-Phethdain" Quenyanen?
5 Eldaquet #2996, Ainon tence, "Vinyar Tengwar" 41 antane
   sina quetta.

* ma istalye Eldarin quettar,
   {translate, appendix, prologue}?

elya Earraamello

------------------------------------------------------

Hello, whoever alive here! ^^

After long years of waiting, a couple of weeks ago, at 15th
day of July, Korean translation of 1the Lord of the Rings
2opened to the Korean people appropriately. Now it has
all appendicies. Some of them were not with us till now -- D,E and F.
Book-maker Goldenbough did this nice job.

In Korea, there 3has been a Yemun's translation, which is unfaithful
and without a prologue and appendicies. Act that one would see
from Saruman in his collapse, not from blockers from the West!

1 Elfling #4598, EJK wrote that Tolkien translated
   name of his book as Heru Million.
2 I saw this word only in 4Gwaith-i-Phethdain. Where is
   it from? And why 4Gwaith-i-Phethdain shows us -lle, not
   -lye? (in the sentence "merin sa harya[lle] alasse!")
3 From old root AYA... I 5read this from Appleyard's
   Quenya Grammar Reexamined.
4 What would be "Gwaith-i-Phethdain" in Quenya?
5 Elfling #2296, Helge wrote, Vinyar Tengwar 41 gave
   this word.

* Do you know Elvish words,
   translate, appendix, prologue?

From your Earraame

------------------------------------------------------

+ I didn't mention words from QQ and PPQ.

+ Some comments on paraphrasing...

1 It was two weeks ago, so I used a dual, perhaps not
   appropriate.
2 I couldn't find 15th (cardinal), so I just used 15
   (ordinal).
3 I wrote opened to people, instead of "published".
4 I used -li plural _teli_ for "some of them".
5 What can be Quenya equivalent of "D,E and F"?
6 As you might notice, book-maker for "publisher".
7 Word "unfaithful" means "piracy" indeed.
8 I translated "Goldenbough" to _Laurea-olwa_, but left
   "Yemun". "Yemun" is a Korean word formed from Kanji
   (Chinese Letters), and can be translated literally as
   "literal writing(s)".
9 Last sentence, as you might find, is a Quenya translation
   of Tolkien's own word: "Dealings one might expect of
   Saruman in his decay rather than from the defenders of
   the West".

+ Some requests...

Does Appleyard have a Quenya name? How about his essay "Quenya
Grammar Reexamined"? Does EJK have his Elvish name? Are there any
lists which contain "national terms"? (Such as America, England,
France, Norway, Finland, Hungary...) Are there any sort of
"Quenya thesaurus"? Yes, I know of "Quenya Botany" and "Taste of
Elvish" in Ardalambion...

--- In quenya@y..., SKC8563@h... wrote:

> "Quenya thesaurus"? Yes, I know of "Quenya Botany" and "Taste of
> Elvish" in Ardalambion...

Well, there's Parma Eldalamberon No. 12, Qenyaqetsa, but most
unfortunately it is out of stock.

For Quenya, the mature version, I'm not aware of such a lexicon,
although there are several lists floating around on the web, some
better than others.  I'm currently studying these intermittedly . . .

Lola

Aiya, Nildonyar!

Earrame wrote:

>   And why 4Gwaith-i-Phethdain shows us -lle, not
>   -lye? (in the sentence "merin sa harya[lle] alasse!")

In my opinion 2nd pers. has many different endings in Quenya (see my article
on Elvish pronouns at Gwaith-i-Phethdain):

sg

reverential _-lye_, _-l_ (< CE *_-lje_, *_-l_)
familiar _-tye_, _-t_ (< CE *_-kje_, *_-k_)

pl

reverential _-lle_ (< *_-lle_)
familiar _-cce_ (< *_kke_)

The ending _-lle_ is attested in early versions of Namárie (see the HoMe).

> 4 What would be "Gwaith-i-Phethdain" in Quenya?

Maybe _Heren Quettanon_? [*_quettano_ < _quetta_ + _tano_)

Namárie,

Ryszard Derdzinski
(Alyanorno)

maggot@... or galadhorn@...

"Gwaith-i-Phethdain" http://www.elvish.org/gwaith
"Polish Tolkien Society" http://www.parmadili.w.pl
"Silesian Homeland" http://www.kki.net.pl/~derdzinscy

*********************************************************************
"Pent Fangorn Onod: Thinna i ardhon: han mathon ne nen, han mathon ne chef,
han noston ne gwilith." - 'Said Fangorn the Ent: The world is changing: I
feel it in the water, I feel it in the earth, and I smell it in the air'.

John Ronald Reuel Tolkien "Many Partings" in "The Return of the King"

*********************************************************************

Let's do some Borges.

I started with the last paragraph of Ulrike. Here I would continue
with The Circular Ruins, which is one of my favorites.

Translation is somewhat rough and contains some over-used or
obsolete words. Suggestions would be truly welcomed.

--------------------------------------------------

[ Original ]

The Circular Ruins

by Jorge Luis Borges

For what had happened many centuries before was repeating itself.
The ruins of the sanctuary of the god of Fire was destroyed by fire.
In a dawn without birds, the wizard saw the concentric fire licking
the walls. For a moment, he thought of taking refuge in the water,
but then he understood that death was coming to crown his old age
and absolve him from his labors. He walked toward the sheets of
flame. They did not bite his flesh, they caressed him and flooded
him without heat or combustion. With relief, with humiliation, with
terror, he understood that he also was an illusion, that someone
else was dreaming him.

--------------------------------------------------

[ Translation ]

I Rinde Atalantier

Horhe Luis Borhesenen

Ya amartie noo linyeeni tatyane ata. I hehtaina uur-ainuva yaana
raacina uurnen. Aarasse aiwevilte, sairon cenne uur austa rambar.
Sinta lusse, sananes varna meno mi neen, nan sintes sa faireo tulie
naa antien son rie linyeeniryaren ar lehtien son mootaryallor. Vantas
naurnna. Naur uume nace hraaverya, nan orsirne sonna laa yo uure var
ustie. Yo lehtie, yo ilalcar, yo osse, sintes sa naas olos, oolane
monen.

--------------------------------------------------

[ Translation of Translation ]

The Circular Down-falls

by Horhe Luis Borhes

What has happened before many-years repeated again. The forsaken
Fire-god's sanctuary was broken by fire. In a dawn birdless, the
wizard saw the fire licking the walls. In a short time, he thought
of safe place in the water, but he knew that death's coming is for
giving him a crown for his long-years and for releasing him from his
toils. He walked to the flame. The flame did not bite his flesh, but
over-flowed upon him not with heat or burning. With relief, with
dis-glory, with terror, he knew that he was an image, dreamed by
someone.

--------------------------------------------------

Earraamello.

I looked up these words from three glossaries: Quettaparma Quenyanna,
Parma Penyane Quettaron, Quenys Corpus Wordlist. I used the following
also: Taste of Elvish, Quenya Affixes.

Oron Halla (laamatyalie)

Aiya, ilye Quenyaquetor sinome!
(Var Quenyatecor...?)

Lenden Tol Jeju, Tol Olostanna. Vanima Loona!
Naas Hyarmenearesse, hyarmen Coreo. Tolo endesse
ea Oron Halla, Coreo orontion anhalla - minya
Halla Corelambe, telda halla Eldalambe. :-)
maara laamatyalie!

Iluuve siiren. Elya Earraamello.

---

Mt. Halla (pun)

Hail, all Quenya-speakers here!
(Or Quenya-writers...?)

I went to Jeju, the dreamy isle. Beautiful island!
It is at the South Sea, the south of Korea.
There is Mt. Halla at the center of the isle,
the tallest(anhalla) of mountains of Korea -
the first Halla is Korean, the last _halla_ is Elvish. :-)
Good sound-play!

All for today. From your Earraame.

> maara laamatyalie!

Yee.. Auri sine hlarilme vinyar Pacistanello, ar noore tanasse (laa haira i
reenallo, sanan) ea osto estaina _Quetta_!

Inye oi sana i Quenya quetto "quetta" iire hlarin esse tana...

- Ainon




[Yeah... These days we hear news from Pakistan, and in that country (not
far from the border, I think) there is a city called _Quetta_!

I always think of the Quenya word "quetta" when I hear that name...

- Helge]

Ainon tenke:

> > maara laamatyalie!
>
> Yee.. Auri sine hlarilme vinyar Pacistanello, ar noore tanasse (laa haira i
> reenallo, sanan) ea osto estaina _Quetta_!
>
> Inye oi sana i Quenya quetto "quetta" iire hlarin esse tana...

**Var i esse _Marquette_ -- maar quettaron? IIrima laaamatyalie.
Nan laa naan i minya i sin quente, hlarnenyes Eruuve Elenello.


Alda

[**Or the name _Marquette_ -- home of words? Lovable pun.
But I am not the first who said this/thus, I heard it from
Lisa Star.]

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