aiya!

Okay, now that i've finished my homework I can do something useful ;)

I've had these two verses for a while, so I figured I'd post them
while I have time...

verse three:
And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with
mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge.

Ar istan sa i quentasta ya carin naa anwa; ar carinyes maanyanen
veera; ar carinyes nolmenyanainen.

This translates pretty close:
And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with
my own hand; and I make it with my knowledge.


here's verse four:
For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the
reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt in
Jerusalem in all his days); and in that same year there came many
prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the
great city Jerusalem must be destroyed.

An martanes i yessesse i coranaro minya i hereon Sedecaio, aran Yudo,
(atarinya, Liihai, marne Yeruusalemesse ilya arerya); ar yana coranar
tulne rimba meneldur, meneldura lienna sa uucaravartante [must], var
i alta osto Yeruusaleme nauva [destroyed].

Translates to:
For it happened in the beginning of the first year of the governance
of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, dwelt in Jerusalem all
his days); and that year came many prophets, prophesying to the
people that they [must] repent, or the great city Jerusalem will be
[destroyed].

These words were created/mishmashed:
*_Sedecaio_ = Zedekiah - *_Sedecaia_ + genitive
*_Yudo_ = Judah - *_Yuda_ + genetive
*_Yeruusaleme[sse] = Jerusalem - *_Yeruusaleme_ [+ locative]
*_meneldur_ = prophet - _menel_ 'heaven' + _-dur_ 'servant'
*_meneldura-_ = prophesy... made from *_meneldur_...
*_uucaravartante_ = repent - _uucare_ 'sin' + *_avarta-_ 'forsake'
(PPQ) + _-nte_ 'they'

oh, btw, what was the 'casual' good-bye in Quenya?

Dan Myers

Some commentary to follow:

--- In quenya@y..., "Daniel Myers" <avorix@h...> wrote:
[...]
> verse three:
> And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with
> mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge.
>
> Ar istan sa i quentasta ya carin naa anwa; ar carinyes maanyanen
> veera; ar carinyes nolmenyanainen.

Pretty good, but _nolme_ can also mean "Philosophy (including
Science)" (PM:360 cf. 344). Better to use _hande_ "knowledge,
understanding" (LR:363).

[...]

> here's verse four:
> For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the
> reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt in
> Jerusalem in all his days); and in that same year there came many
> prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the
> great city Jerusalem must be destroyed.
>
> An martanes i yessesse i coranaro minya i hereon Sedecaio, aran
Yudo,

You meant *_héreo_ from _hére_ "lordship"(LT1:272), right? Why do you
coppy the English pronunciation and not the original one in your
translation? It makes no sense: Tolkien didn't translate "Jesus" as
***_Dsiisus_ or **_Hyísus_, but _Yésus_ (VT43). Intervocalic _d_
developed to _r_ in Quenya, cf. _rerin_ "I sow" < RED (LR:383).

> (atarinya, Liihai, marne Yeruusalemesse ilya arerya); ar yana
coranar

You need the locative case here.

> tulne rimba meneldur, meneldura lienna sa uucaravartante [must],
var

UGH! ***_ln_ is impossible in Quenya.

> i alta osto Yeruusaleme nauva [destroyed].

[...]

> These words were created/mishmashed:

These words are indeed mishmash. Luckily that cannot be said from
good reconstructions, done with knowledge and thought.

> *_Sedecaio_ = Zedekiah - *_Sedecaia_ + genitive

no, no, No, No, NO, ABSOLUTELY NO!! No intervocalic _d_ in Noldorin
Quenya, no three vowels in a succession. Both impossible.

> *_Yudo_ = Judah - *_Yuda_ + genetive

no, no, No, No, NO, ABSOLUTELY NO!! No intervocalic _d_ in Noldorin
Quenya.

> *_Yeruusaleme[sse] = Jerusalem - *_Yeruusaleme_ [+ locative]

no, no, No, No, NO, ABSOLUTELY NO!! Why the long vowel? It is not so
in the original language.

> *_meneldur_ = prophet - _menel_ 'heaven' + _-dur_ 'servant'

no, no, No, No, NO, ABSOLUTELY NO!! Prophesy means "spokesman" and is
derrived from _pro-_ + _pheemi_.

> *_meneldura-_ = prophesy... made from *_meneldur_...

no, no, No, No, NO, ABSOLUTELY NO!! Derriving words from horrid and
illogical de-constructions...

> *_uucaravartante_ = repent - _uucare_ 'sin' + *_avarta-_ 'forsake'
> (PPQ) + _-nte_ 'they'

no, no, No, No, NO, ABSOLUTELY NO!! Why make such awkward and
illogical reconstructions, when there is the possibility to
paraphrase? Ai!!!

> oh, btw, what was the 'casual' good-bye in Quenya?

_Mára mesta_

> Dan Myers

-Petri Tikka aka The Enemy of Idiotic Reconstructions

and the rebuttal...

--- In quenya@y..., "Petri Tikka" <kari.j.tikka@w...> wrote:
> Some commentary to follow:
>
> --- In quenya@y..., "Daniel Myers" <avorix@h...> wrote:
> [...]
> > verse three:
> > And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it
with
> > mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge.
> >
> > Ar istan sa i quentasta ya carin naa anwa; ar carinyes maanyanen
> > veera; ar carinyes nolmenyanainen.
>
> Pretty good, but _nolme_ can also mean "Philosophy (including
> Science)" (PM:360 cf. 344). Better to use _hande_ "knowledge,
> understanding" (LR:363).

easy enough

> [...]
>
> > here's verse four:
> > For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the
> > reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt
in
> > Jerusalem in all his days); and in that same year there came many
> > prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or
the
> > great city Jerusalem must be destroyed.
> >
> > An martanes i yessesse i coranaro minya i hereon Sedecaio, aran
> Yudo,
>
> You meant *_héreo_ from _hére_ "lordship"(LT1:272), right?

Actually I meant _heren_ "governance" (Etym KHER-).  That's what I
get when I read off a laptop screen while i'm typing it onto a
desktop...

> Why do you
> coppy the English pronunciation and not the original one in your
> translation? It makes no sense: Tolkien didn't translate "Jesus" as
> ***_Dsiisus_ or **_Hyísus_, but _Yésus_ (VT43). Intervocalic _d_
> developed to _r_ in Quenya, cf. _rerin_ "I sow" < RED (LR:383).
>
> > (atarinya, Liihai, marne Yeruusalemesse ilya arerya); ar yana
> coranar
>
> You need the locative case here.

on _coranar_, right?  so _coranaresse_?

> > tulne rimba meneldur, meneldura lienna sa uucaravartante [must],
> var
>
> UGH! ***_ln_ is impossible in Quenya.

Then what exactly is the past tense of _tul-_ "come"? (which, by the
way, is well attested...)

> > i alta osto Yeruusaleme nauva [destroyed].
>
> [...]
>
> > These words were created/mishmashed:
>
> These words are indeed mishmash. Luckily that cannot be said from
> good reconstructions, done with knowledge and thought.
>
> > *_Sedecaio_ = Zedekiah - *_Sedecaia_ + genitive
>
> no, no, No, No, NO, ABSOLUTELY NO!! No intervocalic _d_ in Noldorin
> Quenya, no three vowels in a succession. Both impossible.

okay, thanks, i didn't know that.  I've only been writing Quenya for
four months, and started learning it five months ago...

> > *_Yudo_ = Judah - *_Yuda_ + genetive
>
> no, no, No, No, NO, ABSOLUTELY NO!! No intervocalic _d_ in Noldorin
> Quenya.
>
> > *_Yeruusaleme[sse] = Jerusalem - *_Yeruusaleme_ [+ locative]
>
> no, no, No, No, NO, ABSOLUTELY NO!!

Did you type this each time, or did you cut & paste it?

> Why the long vowel? It is not so
> in the original language.

Care to enlighten me?

> > *_meneldur_ = prophet - _menel_ 'heaven' + _-dur_ 'servant'
>
> no, no, No, No, NO, ABSOLUTELY NO!! Prophesy means "spokesman" and
is
> derrived from _pro-_ + _pheemi_.

Give me a break.  I'm a high school senior, not some professor of
european languages.

> > *_meneldura-_ = prophesy... made from *_meneldur_...
>
> no, no, No, No, NO, ABSOLUTELY NO!! Derriving words from horrid and
> illogical de-constructions...

then how about telling me, or suggesting to me, ideas on how I could
improve?  how about "heaven-speaker" 'prophet' and "heaven-
speak" 'prophesy'?

> > *_uucaravartante_ = repent - _uucare_ 'sin' + *_avarta-
_ 'forsake'
> > (PPQ) + _-nte_ 'they'
>
> no, no, No, No, NO, ABSOLUTELY NO!! Why make such awkward and
> illogical reconstructions, when there is the possibility to
> paraphrase? Ai!!!

THEN WHY DON'T YOU GIVE ME A GLIMPSE OF YOUR ENLIGHTENED STATE OF
MIND!!!???? [sorry for all caps, i'm somewhat frustrated...]

now I think I should point out that you shouldn't criticize someone's
created/mishmashed words unless you have a suggestion of your own.
Got any?

> > oh, btw, what was the 'casual' good-bye in Quenya?
>
> _Mára mesta_

Thank you.  Is there a source for that?
and, I thought _maara_ was only "fit, useful, good (of things)".  Can
it be used for "morally good"?

> > Dan Myers
>
> -Petri Tikka aka The Enemy of Idiotic Reconstructions

indeed.

I don't want to start a flame war...
but you do seem a little... arrogant...
At least I'm trying.

Mára mesta.

Dan Myers, aka The Enemy of Useless Criticism

Jumping on the bandwagon...
--- Petri Tikka <kari.j.tikka@...> wrote:

>
> > > UGH! ***_ln_ is impossible in Quenya.
> >
> > Then what exactly is the past tense of _tul-_
> "come"? (which, by the
> > way, is well attested...)
>
> _túle_ (LR:47).


are you implying, that *tulle is an illogical
reconstruction?

>
> > > no, no, No, No, NO, ABSOLUTELY NO!! No
> intervocalic _d_ in Noldorin

**except for _ada_ "against" which appeared in one of
the Vinyar Tengwar 43:33


> > > Quenya, no three vowels in a succession. Both
> impossible.

**what about oio?



> No, I dont't think so. _pro-_ means "for" (they are
> actually from the same
> Indo-European stem). _pheemi_ means speak.
> *_anquet-_ would be an
> exact transltion. *_anquetindo_ would be "prophet",
> *_anquetta_ "prophesy".


**I would rather suggest rá "on behalf of, for", it
suits the desired meaning better IMHO


BTW, Petri, with all respect, you _were_ a bit
arrogant. In my very humble opinion.

Bye,

Thomas Ferencz

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Náven nanquete Quenanen, an sina "mílin liste" ná "liste"
tecien Quenyanen.

--- In quenya@y..., Thomas Ferencz <percival64@y...> wrote:
> Jumping on the bandwagon...
> --- Petri Tikka <kari.j.tikka@w...> wrote:
>
> > _túle_ (LR:47).
>
>
> are you implying, that *tulle is an illogical
> reconstruction?

Lá, lá, lá sinten sie! Nás líme mára.
E quítas ea úistaine sarmessen:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9902/unpub.html
_túle_ ná sie mára vanwie-tanwe
síve _unduláve_ var _váne_.

> > > > no, no, No, No, NO, ABSOLUTELY NO!! No
> > intervocalic _d_ in Noldorin Quenya
>
> **except for _ada_ "against" which appeared in one of
> the Vinyar Tengwar 43:33

Sinten sa mo cé ortuva _ada_ amba, inye sinte sa!
Mal sa lá Quenya: "(in apparent contrast with
another ROOT, _ada_ 'against, opposed to, opposite')"
(VT43:33, antoryame ninya).

> > > > Quenya, no three vowels in a succession. Both
> > impossible.
>
> **what about oio?

Sie ná! Elye anwasse! Eque Fangorne: "Antyelca!" :-)

> > No, I dont't think so. _pro-_ means "for" (they are
> > actually from the same
> > Indo-European stem). _pheemi_ means speak.
> > *_anquet-_ would be an
> > exact transltion. *_anquetindo_ would be "prophet",
> > *_anquetta_ "prophesy".
>
>
> **I would rather suggest rá "on behalf of, for", it
> suits the desired meaning better IMHO

Inye camta. *_ráquet-_, *_ráquetindo_ ar *_ráquetta_ san.

> BTW, Petri, with all respect, you _were_ a bit
> arrogant. In my very humble opinion.

Tana quíta sie, ni lá sie alafaila
sa cé lalanyes. ;-)

> Bye,
>
> Thomas Ferencz

Mára mesta,

-Petri Tikka var Alafaila Arandil

Aiya,
--- Petri Tikka <kari.j.tikka@...> wrote:
> Náven nanquete Quenanen, an sina "mílin liste" ná
> "liste"
> tecien Quenyanen.

**Mentatéma? "Message-series"?



>
>
> Sinten sa mo cé ortuva _ada_ amba, inye sinte sa!
> Mal sa lá Quenya: "(in apparent contrast with
> another ROOT, _ada_ 'against, opposed to,
> opposite')"
> (VT43:33, antoryame ninya).

Mana tehta* "cé"? Lá istan quetta sina.

* tehta- "mark up, mean" TEK-

>
> >
> >
> > **I would rather suggest rá "on behalf of, for",
> it
> > suits the desired meaning better IMHO
>
> Inye camta. *_ráquet-_, *_ráquetindo_ ar *_ráquetta_
> san.


Mana tehta "camta"?

>
> > BTW, Petri, with all respect, you _were_ a bit
> > arrogant. In my very humble opinion.
>
> Tana quíta sie, ni lá sie alafaila
> sa cé lalanyes. ;-)


"cé", ata... quetta úmoina...

Send' aure.

Thomas

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--- In quenya@y..., Thomas Ferencz <percival64@y...> wrote:
> Aiya,

> **Mentatéma? "Message-series"?

Sinten témo yando, mal la cenin, manen lertas satina
sina tehtan.

> Mana tehta* "cé"? Lá istan quetta sina.

_ké_ particle denoting uncertainty (VT42:34, VT44:38):
_lá caritas alasaila ké nauva_ "not doing it might prove
unwise"

> * tehta- "mark up, mean" TEK-

Ma mapal sina Matsarinello*? Sómerinesse* quetta ve
_tehta_: _merkitä_ "mark (off/out), mean". I quetta
tule quettallo _merkki_ "mark, sign".

* Q *_Matsarin_ "Hungarian" < H _Magyar_ "Hungarian"
* Q *_Sómerin_ "Finnish" < F _Suomi_, _Suome-_ "Finland, Finnish
(language)"

> Mana tehta "camta"?

_kamta-_ "to (make) fit, suit, accomodate, adapt" sundollo KAM "fit,
suit, agree" (VT44:14).

> "cé", ata... quetta úmoina...

La sí, merin, íre acálienyes. :-)

> Send' aure.
>
> Thomas

Mára lóme,

-Petri Tikka var Quén i Mere Lore

Aiya,
--- Petri Tikka <kari.j.tikka@...> wrote:

>
> > * tehta- "mark up, mean" TEK-
>
> Ma mapal sina Matsarinello*? Sómerinesse* quetta ve
> _tehta_: _merkitä_ "mark (off/out), mean". I quetta
> tule quettallo _merkki_ "mark, sign".

_jel_: a sign
_jelez_: to make a sign,
_jelöl_: to mark, mark up
_jelent_: 1. mean 2. report

:-)

Senda lóme,

Onillo




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hi all!

I need some help with a text. it should be a birthday card for a good
friend. I tried it but i don't know wheather its correct.
so heres my text

moina nildo,
sina aure ná nolstalya ar merin ilya ammára an i ento loa cuilelyo.
Nai analta írelya tuluva anwa. Ná alya ar annali len!

should mean:
Dear friend,
today [this day -'cause I didn't find a word for today] is your
birthday and I wish (you) all the best for the next year of your life.
May your greatest wish come true. be blessed and good luck.

I wanted to write an additional phrase "stay as you are" but I didn't
find a word for stay.
I hope someone could help!?!

ingolewen

Aiya,
--- gudrunakageenee <geenee1@...> wrote:
> moina nildo,
> sina aure

** siare is an attested word for "today" AFAIK

  ná nolstalya

** I think *nostare (nosta- "beget, give birth" + -re
"day") would be better for birthday

  ar merin ilya ammára an i
> ento loa cuilelyo.
> Nai analta írelya tuluva anwa.

** "come true" is an English idiom IMHO, it cannot be
translated into other languages literally; paraphrase


  Ná alya ar annali

** I could not find *annali, what is the source of it?


Bye,

Thomas


> len!
>
> should mean:
> Dear friend,
> today [this day -'cause I didn't find a word for
> today] is your
> birthday and I wish (you) all the best for the next
> year of your life.
> May your greatest wish come true. be blessed and
> good luck.
>
> I wanted to write an additional phrase "stay as you
> are" but I didn't
> find a word for stay.
> I hope someone could help!?!
>
> ingolewen
>


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--- In quenya@y..., Thomas Ferencz <percival64@y...> wrote:
> Aiya,
> --- gudrunakageenee <geenee1@w...> wrote:
> > moina nildo,
> > sina aure
>
> ** siare is an attested word for "today" AFAIK

That is from an earlier version of the Quenya "Pater Noster"; in the
last translation it is _síra_ (VT43:22). BTW, _moina_ (MOY (MUY))
also means "familiar". A less ambiguous word in this context would be
_melda_ "beloved, dear" (LR:72, MEL).

>  ar merin ilya ammára an i
> > ento loa cuilelyo.
> > Nai analta írelya tuluva anwa.
>
> ** "come true" is an English idiom IMHO, it cannot be
> translated into other languages literally; paraphrase

The dative case _-n_ (Plotz) would be better here, for _an_ (RGEO:66)
is not attested as a preposition, except with the meaning of "to,
towards" (NÂ1). The idiom "come true" exists in Finnish as _tulla
toteen/todeksi_.

-Petri Tikka aka Máraquettandil

--- In quenya@y..., "gudrunakageenee" <geenee1@w...> wrote:

> I wanted to write an additional phrase "stay as you are" but I
didn't
> find a word for stay.
> I hope someone could help!?!
>
> ingolewen

There is _termar-_ "stand, last" (UT:317), which literally
means "through-abide". In this context it is essentially a synonym
for "stay". Thus *_Á termare síve eal_ or _Á termare síve elye ea_.
The second translation places emphasis on "you" with an emphatic
pronoun _elye_ (RGEO:67) *"even you, especially you, just you, no one
else but you, etc...".

-Petri Tikka aka Tolkiemparmandil

--- In quenya@y..., Thomas Ferencz <percival64@y...> wrote:
> Aiya,
>
> ** "come true" is an English idiom IMHO, it cannot be
> translated into other languages literally; paraphrase
>

of course there are translations to other languages! (e.g.
german "wahr werden") but the question is if it fits in quenya that
way?!
I mean "anwa" also means "real" so you could rather say "become real"
but is it right tu say "tuluva" for "become"?

>
>  Ná alya ar annali
>
> ** I could not find *annali, what is the source of it?

I don't know about an attested text but "annali len" means good luck:
(lit. abundant-gifts for you)
I found it at
http://elvengroup.battleaxe.net/lessons/lesson1.htm#_Vocabulary_-
_Greetings/Salutations

(sorry, for copying it that easyly!)

>
>
> > len!

But Thanks for all comments!

Ingolewen

--- gudrunakageenee <geenee1@...> wrote:
> --- In quenya@y..., Thomas Ferencz <percival64@y...>
> wrote:
> > Aiya,
> >
> > ** "come true" is an English idiom IMHO, it cannot
> be
> > translated into other languages literally;
> paraphrase
> >
>
> of course there are translations to other languages!
> (e.g.
> german "wahr werden") but the question is if it fits
> in quenya that
> way?!
> I mean "anwa" also means "real" so you could rather
> say "become real"
> but is it right tu say "tuluva" for "become"?

Yes, but "wahr werden" does not literally mean "come
true", does it? That is why I have doubt that this
phrase can be translated using the Quenya verb for
"come" _tul-_. I would simply use the future of "to
be": nauva

Thomas

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>In quenya@y..., Thomas Ferencz <percival64@y...>
> wrote:
>Yes, but "wahr werden" does not literally mean "come
>true", does it? That is why I have doubt that this
>phrase can be translated using the Quenya verb for
>"come" _tul-_. I would simply use the future of "to
>be": nauva

>Thomas

OK. you're right "werden" means "become" not "come".
so you would say _Nai analta írelya nauva anwa_?
[May your greatest wish will be real] sounds some kind of strange but if
there's no other possibility I will use it.
Thanks again!

Gudrun xxx

aiya!

Well, this seems to have left the scope of my knowledge...

Thank you Petri and Thomas for your input.
I think i'll go ahead and use *_ráquet-_ "to prophesy",
*_ráquetindo_ "prophet", and *_ráquetta_ "prophesy".

Also, I'll use *_Yerusalen_ "Jerusalem", but what should I use for
Zedekiah and Judah?
Are there (even rough) guidelines for translating names?

To replace the ugly *_úcaravartante_ 'they repent', i'll use
_avartante úcarenta_ "they forsake their sins".

For the record, I just realized that I left an unattested word off my
list of "created/mishmashed" words in my original message:
_yessesse_, constructed by Helge for his Genesis 1 translation.

Are there suitable words for "must" and "destroyed"?

So, after a (short) debate about the past tense of _tul-_, does it
really matter which pa.t. i use? (_túle_ or _tulle_?)  I'd opt for
_tulle_, but that's just because... well, i'm not sure why...

i've got the next twelve verses almost completely translated, so when
I finish this stupid assignment I'll post them...

mára mesta.

-Dan Myers

I often wondered why some people use the vinyakarme avarta- for "to forsake" when there is a perfectly suitable word already available IMO: hehta-: hehtante úcarentar.

 quenya@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 13:34:34 -0000
From: "Daniel Myers"
Subject: Re: Nephi 3 & 4

aiya!

Well, this seems to have left the scope of my knowledge...

Thank you Petri and Thomas for your input.
I think i'll go ahead and use *_ráquet-_ "to prophesy",
*_ráquetindo_ "prophet", and *_ráquetta_ "prophesy".

Also, I'll use *_Yerusalen_ "Jerusalem", but what should I use for
Zedekiah and Judah?
Are there (even rough) guidelines for translating names?

To replace the ugly *_úcaravartante_ 'they repent', i'll use
_avartante úcarenta_ "they forsake their sins".

For the record, I just realized that I left an unattested word off my
list of "created/mishmashed" words in my original message:
_yessesse_, constructed by Helge for his Genesis 1 translation.

Are there suitable words for "must" and "destroyed"?

So, after a (short) debate about the past tense of _tul-_, does it
really matter which pa.t. i use? (_túle_ or _tulle_?) I'd opt for
_tulle_, but that's just because... well, i'm not sure why...

i've got the next twelve verses almost completely translated, so when
I finish this stupid assignment I'll post them...

mára mesta.

-Dan Myers

I often wonder why some people use the vinyakarme *avarta- "to forsake" when there is a perfectly suitable word already available IMO: hehta- "put aside, exclude": hehtante úcarentar.

 quenya@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 13:34:34 -0000
From: "Daniel Myers"
Subject: Re: Nephi 3 & 4

aiya!

Well, this seems to have left the scope of my knowledge...

Thank you Petri and Thomas for your input.
I think i'll go ahead and use *_ráquet-_ "to prophesy",
*_ráquetindo_ "prophet", and *_ráquetta_ "prophesy".

Also, I'll use *_Yerusalen_ "Jerusalem", but what should I use for
Zedekiah and Judah?
Are there (even rough) guidelines for translating names?

To replace the ugly *_úcaravartante_ 'they repent', i'll use
_avartante úcarenta_ "they forsake their sins".

For the record, I just realized that I left an unattested word off my
list of "created/mishmashed" words in my original message:
_yessesse_, constructed by Helge for his Genesis 1 translation.

Are there suitable words for "must" and "destroyed"?

So, after a (short) debate about the past tense of _tul-_, does it
really matter which pa.t. i use? (_túle_ or _tulle_?) I'd opt for
_tulle_, but that's just because... well, i'm not sure why...

i've got the next twelve verses almost completely translated, so when
I finish this stupid assignment I'll post them...

mára mesta.

-Dan Myers

Send' aure ilquenen,


séyas nin sa yestalme lá enyalien sa i lambe
"mentatémo" sina Quenya ná. Hyamin ilquenen técien
Quenyanen íre polima; tambe polilme nolya úve.

Lá polilme quere limbe lirer ilya otsolesse; mauya men
voro yuhta limbe ilaurie quettar sa nólelma lauya ilya
auresse.


Mára mesta,

Onillo

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I tried to translate "alter of the sky"  but I am a bit stuck on
something!
First I could not find the translation of altar in quenya so I used
temple which translates to "korda" i know that the = "i" and I am
lost with the word of. I know sky = "taime"


so would it be something like this
korda i taimë     ?

or would it be
i korda taimë    ?

teithant adriana

> so would it be something like this
> korda i taimë     ?

this would be acceptable in sindarin, but in quenya
you must SHOW possessive relations...

"korda i taimeo"

however i would propose some more common words

yaana menelo

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You misspelled the title! That might tell something of your interests.

--- In quenya@y..., "adriana" <latina_123@y...> wrote:
> I tried to translate "alter of the sky"  but I am a bit stuck on
> something!

More than stuck; you probably haven't got the faintest clue.
ardalambion.com is currently the only place for amateurs to learn
reasonable Quenya. Go there and read the articles with care (that is,
if you are even interested [for languages are hard]).

> First I could not find the translation of altar in quenya so I used
> temple which translates to "korda"

_corda_ "temple" (LT1:257) is not even close to "artal". The fact is,
for all I know, we simply don't have a single word even close enough
in any of Tolkien's languages to "artal" in his publised writings.
Also, for that reason, a reconstruction would most positively be a
monster: it would be a de-consturction.

> i know that the = "i"

It isn't that simple. Sometimes the definite article isn't used at
all in Quenya, even thought it must be there in English, e.g. _Quenta
Silmarillion_ "the Story/Tale of the Silmarils" (Silm).

> and I am lost with the word of. I know sky = "taime"

No, the Quenya word for "sky" isn't **_taime_. There is no such word
as **_taime_ in the published corpus. There are only _Taimë_ and
_Taimië_ "the sky" (LT1:268), and those are "Qenya" of the 1910s. And
yes, I know that the names _Quenya_ (WJ:393) and _Qenya_ (LT1:246)
hardly differ at all; but it can't be denied that the Quenya of 1940-
1970 is from a quite different reality than the "Qenya" of the 1910s
in very many ways.

> so would it be something like this
> korda i taimë     ?

Genitive relations in Quenya are most likely rarely, if ever, made my
simple word order. The word for "the sky" is crying for a case
ending, like the possessive ending _-va_ (WJ:407) in _Taurë
Huinéva_ "Forest of Shadow" (PHUY). Look up at lessons 11 and 12 of
Fauskanger's Quenya Course: http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/less-c.rtf

> or would it be
> i korda taimë    ?

No, I wouldn't think so. I don't know of such a genitive consruction
in the published corpus.

PS. These sentences are what I would truly call mishmash, for they
are a jumbled mess.

PPS. I really don't want to hear any of that babble about "an honest
attempt" anymore. It's just plain nonsense to me.

- Petri Tikka aka *_alasaila atan_ "an unwise man"

I will continue to practice.

Thanks so much!

--- Petri Tikka <kari.j.tikka@...> wrote:
> You misspelled the title! That might tell something
> of your interests.

Ahem:-)


> _corda_ "temple" (LT1:257) is not even close to
> "artal". The fact is,
    ********



> in any of Tolkien's languages to "artal" in his

******

Senda lóme!

Onillo


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it has been brought to my attention on from another source that i
was using an incorrect dictionary for my translations...sorry!

that does not mean i have no intrest in learning!

Hell i don't know if this is a good place to learn! It is like if you
mess up you get insulted for that! I thought this was to be a nice
place where everyone helps out eachother! I would not be asking
a question if I did not need help...ok

don't reply if you are going to have a nasty attitude about helping
other who may not know as much as you....

teithant adriana

> it has been brought to my attention on from another
> source that i
> was using an incorrect dictionary for my
> translations...sorry!
>
> that does not mean i have no intrest in learning!
>
> Hell i don't know if this is a good place to learn!
> It is like if you
> mess up you get insulted for that! I thought this
> was to be a nice
> place where everyone helps out eachother! I would
> not be asking
> a question if I did not need help...ok
>
> don't reply if you are going to have a nasty
> attitude about helping
> other who may not know as much as you....

sorry... as for wordlists and places to look, read
http://gildor.freepage.gr/faq.html (some links need to
be corrected)

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AHA! A "nonsense" reply, just as I expected! :-)

--- In quenya@y..., "adriana" <latina_123@y...> wrote:
> it has been brought to my attention on from another source that i
> was using an incorrect dictionary for my translations...sorry!

You don't have to apologize to anyone but yourself on this matter,
and not even yourself if you don't want to. 8-o

> that does not mean i have no intrest in learning!

BTW, it's spelled "interest". ;-D

> Hell i don't know if this is a good place to learn! It is like if
> you

Now, now, no need to curse! ;-) Civilized behaviour is always a must,
especially on the internet. This most certainly is _not_ "a good
place to learn". It's really not too constructive for that! :-)

> mess up you get insulted for that! I thought this was to be a nice
> place where everyone helps out eachother! I would not be asking
> a question if I did not need help...ok

My oppinion is that there are such things as unintelligent questions,
although that oppinion is not shared by many people. Unintelligent
questions are such that can be answered much more easily by learning
out yourself. I love it! 8-)

> don't reply if you are going to have a nasty attitude about helping
> other who may not know as much as you....

I don't know how I insulted you, but even if I did that does not
justify you to accuse me of "a nasty attitude". That is very
hypocrite. :-< I was trying to be as nice as possible. :-) That is, I
didn't want to insult you personally. I knew almost nothing about
Tolkien's languages at one point, but I didn't go around bothering
everyone with unthoughtful questions (or so I think;-)). I first
learned all I could from stable sources. It's fun! !-)

PS. I know, much too many smilies. I don't even know what most of
them mean! =)

- Petri Tikka aka PST

AHA! A "nonsense" reply, just as I expected! :-)

••••you know to me you are not that funny...

--- In quenya@y..., "adriana" <latina_123@y...> wrote:
> it has been brought to my attention on from another source that
i
> was using an incorrect dictionary for my translations...sorry!

You don't have to apologize to anyone but yourself on this matter,
and not even yourself if you don't want to. 8-o


••••Like I said if you don't have anything good to say than don't
say anything at all.



> that does not mean i have no intrest in learning!

BTW, it's spelled "interest". ;-D

•••• oh well! a mistake....i guess you are the one person that
does not make any errors!

> Hell i don't know if this is a good place to learn! It is like if
> you

Now, now, no need to curse! ;-) Civilized behaviour is always a
must,
especially on the internet. This most certainly is _not_ "a good
place to learn". It's really not too constructive for that! :-)

> mess up you get insulted for that! I thought this was to be a
nice
> place where everyone helps out eachother! I would not be
asking
> a question if I did not need help...ok

My oppinion is that there are such things as unintelligent
questions,
although that oppinion is not shared by many people.

•••• ooops! I take it back my last comment back!
it is opinion! duh

  Unintelligent
questions are such that can be answered much more easily by
learning
out yourself. I love it! 8-)

••••maybe not everyone is as intellegent as yourself and maybe
not everyone does well trying to learn on their own!


> don't reply if you are going to have a nasty attitude about
helping
> other who may not know as much as you....

I don't know how I insulted you, but even if I did that does not
justify you to accuse me of "a nasty attitude". That is very
hypocrite. :-< I was trying to be as nice as possible. :-) That is, I
didn't want to insult you personally. I knew almost nothing about
Tolkien's languages at one point, but I didn't go around bothering
everyone with unthoughtful questions (or so I think;-)). I first
learned all I could from stable sources. It's fun! !-)


••••maybe you should try being a bit more nicer...
and you don't have to reply to any of my questions if you feel that
they are unthoughtful...


PS. I know, much too many smilies. I don't even know what most
of
them mean! =)

- Petri Tikka aka PST

••••I think is is clear that you and I are not going to be getting
along so to avoid other dilemas like this one I would appreciate it
if you would not reply to any of my postings. I would much rather
someone else help me than you. I mean that in the nicest way
possible.

Adriana

--- In quenya@y..., "adriana" <latina_123@y...> wrote:
> AHA! A "nonsense" reply, just as I expected! :-)
>
> ••••you know to me you are not that funny...

=) Not to me either. You are the one who is being funny! 8-)

[...]
> --- In quenya@y..., "adriana" <latina_123@y...> wrote:
> > it has been brought to my attention on from another source that
> i
> > was using an incorrect dictionary for my translations...sorry!
>
> You don't have to apologize to anyone but yourself on this matter,
> and not even yourself if you don't want to. 8-o
>
>
> ••••Like I said if you don't have anything good to say than don't
> say anything at all.

I could say that back to you. You sound like a big hypocrite! ;-)

[...]
> > that does not mean i have no intrest in learning!
>
> BTW, it's spelled "interest". ;-D
>
> •••• oh well! a mistake....i guess you are the one person that
> does not make any errors!

No, no, you're wrong! I make spelling errors all the time. I was not
judging you, just correcting, that's all. Why do you take everything
I say so badly? Maybe it is you that have "a bad attitude", ever
thought about that?

[...]
>  Unintelligent
> questions are such that can be answered much more easily by
> learning
> out yourself. I love it! 8-)
>
> ••••maybe not everyone is as intellegent as yourself and maybe
> not everyone does well trying to learn on their own!

It is not a case of intelligence. Not at all. I did not claim that I
am more intelligent than you or any other person. Currently there is
no place in the internet, where you may learn anything useful of
Tolkien's languages with other people. It's just a fact, nothing
more, nothing less.

[...]
> ••••maybe you should try being a bit more nicer...
> and you don't have to reply to any of my questions if you feel that
> they are unthoughtful...

Did you even read what I just said: "I was trying to be as nice as
possible."? You just demand, demand and demand! I reply to your
questions, so that you may go to a place where you may learn more,
like "ardalambion.com".

[...]
> ••••I think is is clear that you and I are not going to be getting
> along so to avoid other dilemas like this one I would appreciate it
> if you would not reply to any of my postings. I would much rather
> someone else help me than you. I mean that in the nicest way
> possible.
>
> Adriana

You insult me. If you are really such a hypocrite, I think you are
not goind to get better help from anyone else here. And no, I do not
mean it in the "nicest way possible". I do not want to sound like a
hypocrite.

- Petri Tikka aka Highly Insulted