Melime nildor (ar nildi ?)

Íre nessima, óla ninna heruo nyarnaron, quentaró
parmaron nelde, hamila tálesse aldo, mi usque asearon
róma-lóteva.

Lenden entasse, vantala linque salquesse. Nán inye
varya lá quete... Ananta quentéro "nyáre ya nyarnelye
sermonnar: mára"

Amaure tulle, calima anaróre, ar metyanes olorinya...

Sí tecin nyarnar sermonyain.

Ar elye, mana olos carnelye, yasse quentelye as
Tolkien?

Wilindyo.
-- -

Notes:

    _óla_ is impersonal according to UT, hence
          the oblique construct adopted here.
    *_as_ "with" (reconstructed from S. _ah_)

> Melime nildor (ar nildi ?)
Dear [male] friends (and [female] friends?)

> Íre nessima, óla ninna heruo nyarnaron,
When young, I dream [read dreamt?] about a lord of stories,

> quentaró parmaron nelde,
a narrator of three books,

> hamila tálesse aldo, mi usque asearon róma-lóteva.
sitting at the foot [read _talesse_] of a tree, in reek of [kings]foils of
a horn-flower [???]

> Lenden entasse, vantala linque salquesse.
I went there, wandering in wet grass.

> Nán inye varya lá quete...
But I protect not speak.. [sic - read _verya_ for _varya_ and translate
"but I *dare* not speak..."???]

> Ananta quentéro "nyáre ya nyarnelye sermonnar: mára"
And yet he said "[the] story that you told to friends: good"

> Amaure tulle, calima anaróre, ar metyanes olorinya...
Dawn [read amaurea] came, bright sunrise, and it put an end to my dream...

> Sí tecin nyarnar sermonyain.
Now I write stories for my friends.

> Ar elye, mana olos carnelye, yasse quentelye as Tolkien?
And you, what dream did you have (lit. make), where you spoke with Tolkien?

>    *_as_ "with" (reconstructed from S. _ah_)

So you would read _Athrabeth Finrod ah [< *as] Andreth_ as "Finrod's debate
WITH Andreth"?

- Ainon

"Helge K. Fauskanger" wrote:

> > Melime nildor (ar nildi ?)
> Dear [male] friends (and [female] friends?)

**Maybe we could use *_nilda_ (pl. _nildar_ for "friend" without
determining sex - I've been wondering.

_Ar, yee, istan sa sinome nissi (var 'wendi', intyala sa meril ta) nar yando_.

("And, yes, I think that here women (or 'girls', suppossing that you want it)
are also.)

> > Amaure tulle, calima anaróre, ar metyanes olorinya...
> Dawn [read amaurea] came, bright sunrise, and it put an end to my dream...

**_Amaurea_ looks alot as adj. I would also have said _amaure_ (_am-aure_
"up-sunlight"?) is a noun.

> > Ar elye, mana olos carnelye, yasse quentelye as Tolkien?
> And you, what dream did you have (lit. make), where you spoke with Tolkien?

**_Ahaarien laa oloore ve sina_. ("I have not had a dream like this.")

> >    *_as_ "with" (reconstructed from S. _ah_)

**Why not to use attested _yo_?


Alda

--
**trust in love to save (sunscreem, when)

Hi everybody!

I was wondering what are the best resources to start learning
Quenya...? I think I know how to conjugate the verbs...but I was
wondering if there are any dictionary lists, etc. Any suggestions from
people?

Mark

maxm@...
http://www.nine9.ukshells.co.uk

(This small text was also cross-posted to a French forum,
where it was discussed with Greg "Tirno". By the way, the
dream is actually true. I made it several years ago, while
I still was a student. I was under heavy pressure, having
just published a short story in my school's journal, and
I was simultaneously writing an article about K. Fonstad's
Atlas. Hence the dream, perhaps?)

> > Íre nessima, óla ninna heruo nyarnaron,
> When young, I dream [read dreamt?] about a lord of stories,

Read _ólane nin_, in past tense, and probably with the
"object" in dative case instead of allative (but we don't
know).

>
> > quentaró parmaron nelde,
> a narrator of three books,

Read _quentaro_ (genitive, not marked morphologically
for such nouns in -o)

> > hamila tálesse aldo, mi usque asearon róma-lóteva.
> sitting at the foot [read _talesse_] of a tree, in reek of
> [kings]foils of a horn-flower [???]

"in the smoke of tobacco". Sindarin _romloth_ occurs in
David Salo's word-list, though I was not able to find the
reference.

(In my dream, Tolkien was smoking, with his pipe in hand,
*exactly* as he appears on a well-known picture of him;-)

> > Nán inye varya lá quete...
> But I protect not speak.. [sic - read _verya_ for _varya_
> and translate "but I *dare* not speak..."???]

Yes. Also read _veryane_ in the past tense.

> Amaure tulle, calima anaróre, ar metyanes olorinya...
> Dawn [read amaurea] came, bright sunrise, and it put an end
> to my dream...

I was under the impression that _amaurea_ was actually
an adjective. But MR states it to be a noun, apparently.

> >    *_as_ "with" (reconstructed from S. _ah_)
>
> So you would read _Athrabeth Finrod ah [< *as] Andreth_ as
> "Finrod's debate WITH Andreth"?

Well, I can hardly discuss this here, but it seems all the
more probable. Until we know for sure, S. _ah_ and Q. *_as_
seem a good choice for "with".

While I am at it, I also suggest that the dative case could
perhaps be used in some circumstances to express "against"
(instead of the usual "for"), as it was done sometimes in
Old Greek:

    makhestai "to combat, to fight against" + dative
    orgizesthai "to get angry at" + dative

More generally, if we consider that the Quenya dative may
be used *exactly* as in Greek, then there are some rather
interesting possibilities:

    - ideas of hostility or kindness: the two above-mentioned
      verds; "to envy s.o." (phthonein), "to agree with s.o"
      (sumphronein)...

    - ideas of prayer or assistance: "to help s.o." (boEthein),
      "to defend s.o or s.thing" (amunein), "to pray"
      (eukhesthai)...

    - ideas of obedience: "to obey" (hupakouein), "to serve"
      (hupEretein)...

So we could perhaps write for instance:

    mahtante eldain "they fight against the Eldar"
    *beuyante eldain "they serve the Eldar"

(would *_beuya_ be a correct form in Quenya? Tolkien only
lists it as a primitive root).

Wilindyo.

>So we could perhaps write for instance:
>
>    mahtante eldain "they fight against the Eldar"
>    *beuyante eldain "they serve the Eldar"
>
>(would *_beuya_ be a correct form in Quenya? Tolkien only
>lists it as a primitive root).
>
>Wilindyo.

A slip on your part, maybe, or just my miscomprehension...

BEW -> PQ _*beuya_ -> Q _veuya_, I suppose.

Tirno AKA Greg

P.S. If there is any more follow-up on this, we should move it to Elfling.
>


______________________________________________________

Mark A Miles wrote:

> Hi everybody!
>
> I was wondering what are the best resources to start learning
> Quenya...? I think I know how to conjugate the verbs...but I was
> wondering if there are any dictionary lists, etc. Any suggestions from
> people?

**Try to read Elfling faqs on http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfaq.html


Alda

--
**trust in love to save (sunscreem, when)

Try reading Helge's Ardalambion article on Quenya first.  That was my
introduction to the world of living Quenya.  Then, just read and write
it.  You can learn a lot from other works in Quenya, and if you write
your own you start to memorize common words.  Also, don't skip Helge's
article on Primitive Elvish.  If you write, you will probably eventually
need a word that doesn't exist yet, and the way to make up words is to
develop a knowledge of affixes and a command of the sound changes
between Primitive Elvish and Quenya so you can "age" a word properly.
Other than that, just read and write.

Melde

I wrote a simple children's story in Quenya, and I'd like to have your
opinion of it.

Lauraarel ar Telpaldon

Naa laurefindea hiina estana Lauraarel.  Naa Lauraarellen meldo estana
Telpegaldon.  Lauraarel esta son Telpaldon.  Telpegaldon esta sen
Lauraasel.  Tyalinte coronnen.  Lauraarel hata i coron ar Telpegaldon
mapa ta.  Sin Telpegaldon hata ar Lauraarel mapa.  Anduunesse yuuyo
entuler maarenna.
Iire Lauraarel nuva veanis, merire na tane.  Caruvaare vanye cormar ar
miirie firingar.  Iire Telpegaldon nuva veaner, meriro na ciryamo.
Lelyuvaaro Alqualondello Umbarenna.  Lauraarel ar Telpegaldon vestuvar.

Notes:
1. _hata_ "throw", from KHAT
2. _veanis_ "adult woman", made to match  _veaner_ "adult man"
3. _tane_ "craftswoman", made to match _tano_

Melde

Shihali Ramichu wrote:

> I wrote a simple children's story in Quenya, and I'd like to have your
> opinion of it.
>
> Lauraarel ar Telpaldon

**"Golden-? and Silver-tree"? - I do not know what you mean.

>
> Naa laurefindea hiina estana Lauraarel.

**"[There] is golden-haired child named Lauraarel" - Use _ea_ rather
copula _naa_; there is a word _finda_ "haired".

>  Naa Lauraarellen meldo estana Telpegaldon.

**[There] is for/to Lauraarellen friend named Telpegaldon" - Rather
_ea_; I would use the possessive _Lauraarelwa_ "of Lauraarel,
Lauraaral's"; By _Telpegaldon_ you mean an older form of _Telpaldon_?

>  Lauraarel esta son Telpaldon.

**"Lauraarel names to/for him Telpaldon" - I would use the accusative
_esta so_ rather than the dative.

>  Telpegaldon esta sen Lauraasel.

**"Telpagaldon names for/to her Lauraasel" - same problems as above;
_Lauraasel_ as an ancestor of _Lauraarel_?

>  Tyalinte coronnen.

**"They play with/by a ball" - I would say _yo coron_.

>  Lauraarel hata i coron ar Telpegaldon mapa ta.

**"Lauraarel throws the ball and Telpegaldon grasps it" - _haata_ resp.
_maapa_ or aorist _hate_ resp. _mape_.

>  Sin Telpegaldon hata ar Lauraarel mapa.

**"Now Telpegaldon throws and Lauraarel grasps" - same problems as
above.

>  Anduunesse yuuyo entuler maarenna.

**"In [the] evening both re-come/return to home" - either aorist
_entulir_ or normal present _entuular_.

>
> Iire Lauraarel nuva veanis, merire na tane.

**"When Lauraarel will be[come] adult-woman, she wants to be a
craftswoman" - we do not know how the future tense of "be" looks like
in mature Q, so it's douptful. Someone uses attested (but likely not
valid) _yeeva_; and we also do not know the infinitive of "be" - I
personally in such cases omit it and I would write _merire tane_ "she
wants [to be] craftswoman" or maybe _merire naa tane_.

>  Caruvaare vanye cormar ar miirie firingar.

**"She will made fair rings and jeweled necklaces"

>  Iire Telpegaldon nuva veaner, meriro na ciryamo.

**"When Telpegaldon will be[come] adult-man, he wants to be a mariner"
- as above.

> Lelyuvaaro Alqualondello Umbarenna.  Lauraarel ar Telpegaldon vestuvar.

**"He will go from Alqualonde to Umbar. Lauraarel and Telpegaldon
will wed."


Alda

--
**I'm just the Messenger.. (Milla Jovovich as Joan of Arc)

Ales Bican wrote:

> **"Golden-? and Silver-tree"? - I do not know what you mean.
>
>

Lauraarel is supposed to mean "maiden of golden sunshine"
(laure-aare-el(le)), and Telpegaldon is supposed to mean "silver tree".  The
name is Telerin.

> > Naa laurefindea hiina estana Lauraarel.
>
> **"[There] is golden-haired child named Lauraarel" - Use _ea_ rather
> copula _naa_; there is a word _finda_ "haired".
>
>

Thanks.  I missed _finda_.  As for _ea_, that sounds good but _naa_ seems
safer.

> >  Naa Lauraarellen meldo estana Telpegaldon.
>
> **[There] is for/to Lauraarellen friend named Telpegaldon" - Rather
> _ea_; I would use the possessive _Lauraarelwa_ "of Lauraarel,
> Lauraaral's"; By _Telpegaldon_ you mean an older form of _Telpaldon_?
>

Since "no Elf would speak of possessing children...." (Morgoth's Ring, pg.
228)  I doubt that they would "possess" friends either.

>
> >  Lauraarel esta son Telpaldon.
>
> **"Lauraarel names to/for him Telpaldon" - I would use the accusative
> _esta so_ rather than the dative.
>

I used the Spanish construction, which as I understand it uses the dative.
Two direct objects don't seem right.

>
> >  Telpegaldon esta sen Lauraasel.
>
> **"Telpagaldon names for/to her Lauraasel" - same problems as above;
> _Lauraasel_ as an ancestor of _Lauraarel_?
>

The same explanation.  _Lauraasel_ is how I think her name would appear in
Telerin.

>
> >  Tyalinte coronnen.
>
> **"They play with/by a ball" - I would say _yo coron_.
>

I think the instrumental _coronnen_ conveys the idea that they play "by means
of" the ball, while _yo coron_ would imply that they play some game along
with a living ball.

>
> >  Lauraarel hata i coron ar Telpegaldon mapa ta.
>
> **"Lauraarel throws the ball and Telpegaldon grasps it" - _haata_ resp.
> _maapa_ or aorist _hate_ resp. _mape_.
>

I messed up my tenses there.  I meant _hate_ and _mape_.

>
> >  Sin Telpegaldon hata ar Lauraarel mapa.
>
> **"Now Telpegaldon throws and Lauraarel grasps" - same problems as
> above.
>

Again, _hate_ and _mape_.

>
> >  Anduunesse yuuyo entuler maarenna.
>
> **"In [the] evening both re-come/return to home" - either aorist
> _entulir_ or normal present _entuular_.
>
>

Yet another messup with the aorist.  I meant _entulir_.

> >
> > Iire Lauraarel nuva veanis, merire na tane.
>
> **"When Lauraarel will be[come] adult-woman, she wants to be a
> craftswoman" - we do not know how the future tense of "be" looks like
> in mature Q, so it's douptful. Someone uses attested (but likely not
> valid) _yeeva_; and we also do not know the infinitive of "be" - I
> personally in such cases omit it and I would write _merire tane_ "she
> wants [to be] craftswoman" or maybe _merire naa tane_.
>

_Nuva_ is doubtful, but Quenya uses the future in a construction like that
and _yeeva_ is pretty clearly obsolete.  You're also right about the extreme
dubiousness of _na_.

>
> >  Caruvaare vanye cormar ar miirie firingar.
>
> **"She will made fair rings and jeweled necklaces"
>
> >  Iire Telpegaldon nuva veaner, meriro na ciryamo.
>
> **"When Telpegaldon will be[come] adult-man, he wants to be a mariner"
> - as above.
>
> > Lelyuvaaro Alqualondello Umbarenna.  Lauraarel ar Telpegaldon vestuvar.
>
> **"He will go from Alqualonde to Umbar. Lauraarel and Telpegaldon
> will wed."
>
> Alda

Thank you for the help.  Feel free to criticize my emendations.

Melde

Shihali Ramichu wrote:

> Lauraarel is supposed to mean "maiden of golden sunshine"
> (laure-aare-el(le))

**I had guessed _laure_ and _aare_. And if the last part
(_el_) has something to do with elf's maiden, then I would
say _-el_, _-elde_.

> , and Telpegaldon is supposed to mean "silver tree".  The
> name is Telerin.

**_Telpe_ is syncoped form of _telepe_, that's ok, but T
word for "tree" is _galla_. Tolkien first thought about _galda_,
but immediately he changed it.
If the masculine ending _-on_ is employed in T, I don't know,
but surely _-o_ is.

> > > Naa laurefindea hiina estana Lauraarel.
> >
> > **"[There] is golden-haired child named Lauraarel" - Use _ea_ rather
> > copula _naa_; there is a word _finda_ "haired".
> >
> >
>
> Thanks.  I missed _finda_.  As for _ea_, that sounds good but _naa_ seems
> safer.

**Hm, safer? _Ea_ seems to mean "exist, be", so "there is, there exist",
while _naa_ seems to mean "it is".
_Anar ea_ "the sun exists / there is the sun"
_Anar naa laurea_ "the sun is golden"
This is the way I would use these two words.

> The same explanation.  _Lauraasel_ is how I think her name would appear in
> Telerin.

**Since _aara_ is derived from the stem AR, I see no reason why T
form should be _aasa_.

> > >
> > > Iire Lauraarel nuva veanis, merire na tane.
> >
> > **"When Lauraarel will be[come] adult-woman, she wants to be a
> > craftswoman" - we do not know how the future tense of "be" looks like
> > in mature Q, so it's douptful. Someone uses attested (but likely not
> > valid) _yeeva_; and we also do not know the infinitive of "be" - I
> > personally in such cases omit it and I would write _merire tane_ "she
> > wants [to be] craftswoman" or maybe _merire naa tane_.
> >
>
> _Nuva_ is doubtful, but Quenya uses the future in a construction like that

**But _naa_ is not as others. It may behave otherwise. But use what
you want. It always is a dilemma whether use purely our constructed
and unattested form or Tolkien's genuine but likely invalid one. I
incline to the second way as long as I do not have anything better.

> and _yeeva_ is pretty clearly obsolete.

**We do not know, we must wait (how long?), it may still happen
that forms of _ye_ are variants.
I don't think it should be clearly obsolete. It simply doesn't
occur in a later published manuscript as well as e.g. _firinga_
you used, but we do not have another better word.
Don't be afraid I don't want to discourage you wholly, I would just
simply use an attested word.
There could be a couple of possibilities. It could be your _nuva_
- the future affix remove the present affix. Or _nuuva_ - when
_yeeva_ contains long vowel and _naa_ as well. Or _naava_ - _u_
of _-uva_ is simply omitted. Or _nauva_ - one of a's of _naa_ is
replaced and the future suffix added. Or it could be something else.


Last time I forget:
Pl. of _hiina_ is _hiini_ according to WJ not _hiinar_, so
dat. pl. should be _[quenta] hiinin_.

"To Umbar" should be _Umbartenna_ rather than _Umbarenna_.
And I would like to ask whether it was a pun: _lelyuvaaro
Alqualondello Umbar[t]enna_ "he will go from A. to Umbar"
and also "he will go from A. towards [his] doom". Well, I hope
that the life of the mariner and the craftswoman will/did not
end as of Aldarion and Erendis...


Alda / Galla / Galadh

--
**I'm just the Messenger.. (Milla Jovovich as Joan of Arc)

Ales Bican wrote:

> > Lauraarel is supposed to mean "maiden of golden sunshine"
> > (laure-aare-el(le))
>
> **I had guessed _laure_ and _aare_. And if the last part
> (_el_) has something to do with elf's maiden, then I would
> say _-el_, _-elde_.
>

Galadriel's Telerin name Alataariel(le) is supposed to mean "maiden crowned with
a radiant garland."  I was trying to emphasize the idea of "maiden" instead of
"elf".

>
> > , and Telpegaldon is supposed to mean "silver tree".  The
> > name is Telerin.
>
> **_Telpe_ is syncoped form of _telepe_, that's ok, but T
> word for "tree" is _galla_. Tolkien first thought about _galda_,
> but immediately he changed it.
> If the masculine ending _-on_ is employed in T, I don't know,
> but surely _-o_ is.
>

Correct on both counts.  Even if "tree" is _galada_, when contracted it would
become _galla_.

>
> > > > Naa laurefindea hiina estana Lauraarel.
> > >
> > > **"[There] is golden-haired child named Lauraarel" - Use _ea_ rather
> > > copula _naa_; there is a word _finda_ "haired".
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Thanks.  I missed _finda_.  As for _ea_, that sounds good but _naa_ seems
> > safer.
>
> **Hm, safer? _Ea_ seems to mean "exist, be", so "there is, there exist",
> while _naa_ seems to mean "it is".
> _Anar ea_ "the sun exists / there is the sun"
> _Anar naa laurea_ "the sun is golden"
> This is the way I would use these two words.
>

I take _ea_ to mean "exist" in a very permanent sense--existing _eternally_, so
I'm hesitant to use it.

>
> > The same explanation.  _Lauraasel_ is how I think her name would appear in
> > Telerin.
>
> **Since _aara_ is derived from the stem AR, I see no reason why T
> form should be _aasa_.
>

Yes, but in LoTR the name of the 30th tengwa is _aaze_ "sunlight", which became
_aare_ in NQ.  So _aare_ must have come from PQ _aasee_ or something similar,
unless there was a general r>z  change in Vanyarin we don't know about.

>
> > > >
> > > > Iire Lauraarel nuva veanis, merire na tane.
> > >
> > > **"When Lauraarel will be[come] adult-woman, she wants to be a
> > > craftswoman" - we do not know how the future tense of "be" looks like
> > > in mature Q, so it's douptful. Someone uses attested (but likely not
> > > valid) _yeeva_; and we also do not know the infinitive of "be" - I
> > > personally in such cases omit it and I would write _merire tane_ "she
> > > wants [to be] craftswoman" or maybe _merire naa tane_.
> > >
> >
> > _Nuva_ is doubtful, but Quenya uses the future in a construction like that
>
> **But _naa_ is not as others. It may behave otherwise. But use what
> you want. It always is a dilemma whether use purely our constructed
> and unattested form or Tolkien's genuine but likely invalid one. I
> incline to the second way as long as I do not have anything better.
>
> > and _yeeva_ is pretty clearly obsolete.
>
> **We do not know, we must wait (how long?), it may still happen
> that forms of _ye_ are variants.
> I don't think it should be clearly obsolete. It simply doesn't
> occur in a later published manuscript as well as e.g. _firinga_
> you used, but we do not have another better word.
> Don't be afraid I don't want to discourage you wholly, I would just
> simply use an attested word.
> There could be a couple of possibilities. It could be your _nuva_
> - the future affix remove the present affix. Or _nuuva_ - when
> _yeeva_ contains long vowel and _naa_ as well. Or _naava_ - _u_
> of _-uva_ is simply omitted. Or _nauva_ - one of a's of _naa_ is
> replaced and the future suffix added. Or it could be something else.
>

*Ye was displaced in favor of _naa_ in Namaarie.  This could be a variant, but
three words for "to be", with two of them having the same meaning?  It's
possible, but it doesn't seem likely.

>
> Last time I forget:
> Pl. of _hiina_ is _hiini_ according to WJ not _hiinar_, so
> dat. pl. should be _[quenta] hiinin_.
>

Also right.  I forgot that.

>
> "To Umbar" should be _Umbartenna_ rather than _Umbarenna_.
>

Where'd you get the _t_?  I've never seen "Umbar" (the city) with the extra _t_
in endings.

> And I would like to ask whether it was a pun: _lelyuvaaro
> Alqualondello Umbar[t]enna_ "he will go from A. to Umbar"
> and also "he will go from A. towards [his] doom". Well, I hope
> that the life of the mariner and the craftswoman will/did not
> end as of Aldarion and Erendis...
>

Well, no, Umbar was just the most distant port from Alqualonde I could think
of.  Without the _t_, the joke doesn't exist.

Melde

Shihali Ramichu wrote:

> > > Lauraarel is supposed to mean "maiden of golden sunshine"
> > > (laure-aare-el(le))
> >
> > **I had guessed _laure_ and _aare_. And if the last part
> > (_el_) has something to do with elf's maiden, then I would
> > say _-el_, _-elde_.
> >
>
> Galadriel's Telerin name Alataariel(le) is supposed to mean "maiden crowned
with
> a radiant garland."  I was trying to emphasize the idea of "maiden" instead of
> "elf".

**You're right.

> > > The same explanation.  _Lauraasel_ is how I think her name would appear in
> > > Telerin.
> >
> > **Since _aara_ is derived from the stem AR, I see no reason why T
> > form should be _aasa_.
> >
>
> Yes, but in LoTR the name of the 30th tengwa is _aaze_ "sunlight", which
became
> _aare_ in NQ.  So _aare_ must have come from PQ _aasee_ or something similar,
> unless there was a general r>z  change in Vanyarin we don't know about.

**Well, that's my mistake, sorry. According to Etym, _aare_ was derived
from the stem AR, but there are some evidences that Tolkien later
decided for the stem AS. _Aare_ then arose by common change from
PQ _aasee_. It became _aaze_ in Q of Valinor and remained in Vanyarin
Q, but in Noldorin Q it became _aare_.
But still I think the T form would be _aare_, for it seems that the mentioned
change was employed in T as well. We have _cavaria_ "house of him",
evidently containg 3rd person possessive ending _-ria_. Its Q cognate
is _-rya_. This ending is retated to 3rd person endings _-re_ (_-rye_?)
and _-ro_ (_-ryo_?) derived from the stem S-, see LR:385.

> > "To Umbar" should be _Umbartenna_ rather than _Umbarenna_.
> >
>
> Where'd you get the _t_?  I've never seen "Umbar" (the city) with the extra
_t_
> in endings.

**We do not know what _Umbar_ should have meant, but it looks
exactly like non-capitalized _umbar_, thus *I* would write it as
_Umbart-_. But if you do not want it like this, it is up to you. Until
we have Tolkien's solution, we can't say what is right and what's not
for sure.


Alda

--
**I'm just the Messenger.. (Milla Jovovich as Joan of Arc)

Ales Bican wrote:

> **Well, that's my mistake, sorry. According to Etym, _aare_ was derived
> from the stem AR, but there are some evidences that Tolkien later
> decided for the stem AS. _Aare_ then arose by common change from
> PQ _aasee_. It became _aaze_ in Q of Valinor and remained in Vanyarin
> Q, but in Noldorin Q it became _aare_.
> But still I think the T form would be _aare_, for it seems that the mentioned
> change was employed in T as well. We have _cavaria_ "house of him",
> evidently containg 3rd person possessive ending _-ria_. Its Q cognate
> is _-rya_. This ending is retated to 3rd person endings _-re_ (_-rye_?)
> and _-ro_ (_-ryo_?) derived from the stem S-, see LR:385.

You're right.  I forgot about those.

>
>
> > > "To Umbar" should be _Umbartenna_ rather than _Umbarenna_.
> > >
> >
> > Where'd you get the _t_?  I've never seen "Umbar" (the city) with the extra
_t_
> > in endings.
>
> **We do not know what _Umbar_ should have meant, but it looks
> exactly like non-capitalized _umbar_, thus *I* would write it as
> _Umbart-_. But if you do not want it like this, it is up to you. Until
> we have Tolkien's solution, we can't say what is right and what's not
> for sure.
>

You've got a point.  Even though _Umbar_ isn't a Quenya name, the -t would
probably be
attached because of the resemblance.  It *does* greatly increase the
possibilities for
punning.

Melde

Ok here is THE BEST:

The first (I hope) quenya crossword. The words are easy (but the clues are
weird) and all attested save 1 (????). There are a few plurals and declined
verbs. You can find it at http://www.crosswinds.net/~gregdyke .

When you have completed the puzzle, put the picture of it on your website
and send me the URL. The first in will get…

absolutely nothing, except recognition from his fellow competitors. Hours
(or minutes or days) of work would be appreciated.

I'll not be on the Web again 'till Easter Tuesday (note to moderator) so
good luck.

Greg.

P.S. Don't all of you go Herman Hesse on me ;)

Oh yes and apologies for those of you who get it twice, I cross-posted to
Elfling an Quenya
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Sorry about the unknown bit

greg
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What about going over it and correcting typos and/or errors?
And informing us about the way the crossword solves the
long vowels - as e.g. 'aa' or 'á'?
Not everyone has Qenya Lexicon.


Alda

--
**I'm just the Messenger.. (Milla Jovovich as Joan of Arc)

Today sitting on a ground of my balcony and looking out I wrote this:


T u i l e


ma cenilye Anar acaala
ma hlarilye filit aliira
iire tuile tule ara tye?

Anar lauca, haire filit-oomar
laica salque arwa venya holmeo
fanyar luine hellesse, en!
vanye, vanye looti linquilion

ma cenilye alda atyulta
ma hlarilye súle asuuya
iire i vinya luume sinome sii?

heldasse aldaron vanwa, suule mi olwar
queni mootar titte latinissen
helca ar lauca vilya, rossi, rossi
caline auri, elene loomi tulir

ma cenilye hiina atyaala
ma hlarilya hiina alaala
ar ma amorta oorelya?

hiini mallessen, vendi, seldor
celvar, olvar, atani nostar, ela!
linte raamar, vanye lossi, calime hendi
vanima, vanima, vanima, vanima

***

S p r i n g


do you see the Sun shine
do you hear a bird sing
when the spring comes beside you?

the Sun warm, far bird-voices
a green grass with fresh odour
white clouds upon blue sky, yonder!
fair, fair flowers of many colors

do you see a tree stand up
do you hear a wing breathe
when the new time [is] here now?

a nakedness of trees [is] lost, a wing in branches
people labor on small fields
cold and warm air, dews, dews
light days, starry nights come

do you see a child play
do you hear a child laugh
and does it uplift your heart?

children in streets, girls, boys
animals, plants, humans beget, look!
swift wings, fair blossoms, bright eyes
beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful

***

*_linquilion_ "of many colors" - _quile/qile_ "colo(u)r" from Qenya
Lexicon
_tyulta_ "rear up, stick up" from QL, probably connected with TYUL of
Etym, thus "stand up"
*_heldasse_ "nakedness" - cf. _handa_ "intelligent" and _handasse_
"intelligence"
_latin_ "*field, open" - used as the noun
*_seldo_ "boy"


Alda

--
**I'm just the Messenger.. (Milla Jovovich as Joan of Arc)

>
>What about going over it and correcting typos and/or errors

Right, check two tipos and one BIG mistake

>And informing us about the way the crossword solves the
>long vowels - as e.g. 'aa' or 'á'?

it ignores them: uunootime -> unotime

>Not everyone has Qenya Lexicon.

_Yo_ and _arta_ are in the only words from the lexicon (oh and yando, and
maybe a few others), all the others are in etym or Ardalambion. All the
actual words are in Etym. (I think). One notable exception is a recent
coining from the sindarin counterpart by a well-known webmaster/lambendil.

Oh and the clues are excessively hard, but two weeks after I still know what
I meant.
>
>
>Alda

Oh, and don't tell me you don't get 17 across!!! (17 arta)


BTW is it just hard, or is NO-ONE interested?

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I don't speak a very good quenya, but I translated the ring poem.
Please let me know about all the mistakes that you find.

Cormar neldë i Eldaranin undu fanyarë,
Otso i Casarceruin ondomardentassen,
Nertë i Firin firië _________,
Minë i Lónaherun lónamahalmaryassë
Mordor ardassë yassë huini caitar.
Minë corma turier ilyë të, minë corma tuvier të,
Minë corma _______ ilyë të, ar morniessë ________ të
Mordor ardassë yassë huini caitar.

(doomed to die= "firië ____" or "_____ firië"...?)
(to bring= ?)
(to bind= ?)
(shadows= huinë, huini, lumbë...?)
Where do I use the article "i"?

I vinya Vinyar Tengwaresse polilme cenda pol-ello ar ista-llo ar lerta-llo,
ar sii istalme (ar lertalme) quete "Polinye quete Quenya!" ar "Polinye mate
hyelle!" ar...

Haryanye alasse!

-- Raama

> I vinya Vinyar Tengwaresse polilme cenda pol-ello ar ista-llo ar
lerta-llo, ar sii istalme (ar lertalme) quete "Polinye quete Quenya!" ar
"Polinye mate hyelle!" ar...

This letter is difficult to understand for the uninitiated, since the
writer had to use the very words he is proudly presenting. Some new words
from Vinyar Tengwar 41: _lerta-_ or _pol-_ "can", _cenda-_ "read". Here are
the details about "can":

* If "can" means "be physically able" (as opposed to being physically
obstructed), the verb used is _pol-_. The example _polin quete_ is
translated "I can speak (because mouth and tongue are free)". This short
sentence is also interesting because it confirms that an aorist stem like
_quete_ can be used in an "infinitival" sense.

* If "can" means "know how to", one uses the well-known verb _ista-_
"know". Tolkien gave the example _istan pole_, but as the editor points
out, he surely intended _istan quete_ instead. This is translated "I can
speak (because I have learned (a) language)".

* If "can" means "be able to (because no particular restraint or obligation
dictates otherwise)", the verb used is _lerta-_. Tolkien gave the example
_lerta quete_, which should certainly read _lertan quete_ (the author seems
to have been very tired when he wrote this). _Lertan quete_ means "I can
speak" in the sense "I can speak because I am free to so, there being no
obstacle of promise, secrecy, duty." (But the verbs _pol-_ and _lerta-_
were to some extent interchangeable.)

"I can speak Quenya" (because I have learnt it) = _Istan quete Quenya._
(_Polin/lertan quete Quenya_ would have a slightly different meaning.)

- Ainon

Hello! I am a novice linguist who enjoys trying to speak in nonliving
languages, and this seems to be the perfect place to do so with others. My
Quenya may not be the best, but please try to read the following. I can send
the intended translation if needed. Thanks - I can really use the help!
Talking to myself can get pretty boring.

Elen siila luumenn’ omentielmo! Essenya naa ‘Nathan Roy’, nan polalye este
ni Cuivie. Maapan lempe ar rasta coranaari, ar ean mii piinea osto Latina
(Independence), Californyasse. Meeran iste enwine lambi, ve Hellenica
(Greek), Yaara Angelis (Old English), Nawate (Aztec) ar Aicuptima
(Egyptian), nan uu-lertan quete quenenna. Utuuvien ngoole Quenyo ter astali,
ar oquetie imbe ingolmor enantuva nin tulca yesta.

Sin naa i yesta luume utuulien mi heren Ternatsesse (group on the
Internet?), ar uu-hanyan uuve. Ilya ngoolenya i eldalambeo sinten er, san
nai maquentuvan nateli:

Man naa i cilme tengwaron ‘oore’ ar ‘roomen’ mi teecale? Naar tehtar ve
‘quotation marks’, ‘parentheses’ ar ‘question marks’? Man tatya
(pluralizes?) quettar tyeldion –ie ar –ee? Polalye tece ‘adverbs’, ar
‘comparative’ ar ‘superlative’ ‘adjectives’? Ar naa ‘Elfling’ maara naamon
ve ni? Hmm… Sin ilqua enyalienyasse sii.

Meeran i natsemen (web-site?) ‘Ardalambion’. Antanes nin uuvea istya. Apa
cendala ‘I Yessesse’, eteecien i yeste atta cirmar (chapters?) i Parmallo
Masseuo (Book of Matthew). Nai tanuvanyes lenna (to you?) mape oosanwilyar
auresse?

Antan uuvea hantale! Tenna enquetalme… namaarie.

Et Cuiviello

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Suilad!
     I'm learning, but I'm here.
         Tenna rato
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hyarmendil Carniquar,  Gondoreano del Sur
Lempecápi, Morisíre
Kyelepea
jmolina@...
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Eque Ainon:
>
>"I can speak Quenya" (because I have learnt it) = _Istan quete Quenya._
>(_Polin/lertan quete Quenya_ would have a slightly different meaning.)

Ai, "mea culpa".

Hm, by the way, I think the FAQ needs an update.

-- Raama

----- Original Message -----

From: Johan Winge

To: quenya@egroups.com

Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 1:08 AM

Subject: Re: [quenya] Yee! Sii istalme...

Eque Ainon:
>
>"I can speak Quenya" (because I have learnt it) = _Istan quete Quenya._
>(_Polin/lertan quete Quenya_ would have a slightly different meaning.)

Ai, "mea culpa".

Hm, by the way, I think the FAQ needs an update.

-- Raama

----- Original Message -----

From: Johan Winge

To: quenya@egroups.com

Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 1:08 AM

Subject: Re: [quenya] Yee! Sii istalme...

Eque Ainon:
>
>"I can speak Quenya" (because I have learnt it) = _Istan quete Quenya._
>(_Polin/lertan quete Quenya_ would have a slightly different meaning.)

Ai, "mea culpa".

Hm, by the way, I think the FAQ needs an update.

-- Raama

....there's a new Shania Twain album called "The Woman In Me". It occurred
to me that if you try to render this title into Quenya, you might end up
with _I Nisse Nisse_. The first _nisse_ is a unitary noun "woman", whereas
the second _nisse_ ("in me") is _ni_ "I, me" + the locative ending.

In late sources, the word for "woman" is given as _nís_ rather than _nisse_
(and even in the Etymologies there is _nis_ as an alternative to _nisse_).
I think I would normally use _nís_ instead, precisely to avoid the
ambiguous form.

- Ainon

Hi!
I want to learn Quenya and I searched for books aubout this topic,
but i didn't find anything(except from The Lost Road and other
writtings (5), but it's only a word list)
Can anybody tell me a book or site aubout learning quenya and/or
quenya grammar?