You anti-grid guys really need to get a grip on reality.

The grid isn't ever going away.

To put it in perspective, our energy use, since 1980 has gone up ~30% (primarily
due to population growth), but our electricity use has gone up ~60%. The FACT is
that more and more of our total energy is being delivered to homes and
businesses as electricity via the GRID.

This is because of two factors: The move to the Cities (ALL 20th century
population growth was in the urban areas)

http://www.usgcrp.gov/usgcrp/Library/nationalassessment/images/UrbanRural-o.jpg

And population growth:

http://www.randcompare.org/current/dimension/images/hct_spending_8_sm.gif

The grid is also the PRIMARY way that renewable energy will be delivered to
customers. Our growth in the last decade in renewable energy has been in TWO
areas: Wind and Bio-Fuels. The Wind has come from large Wind Farms and is
delivered via the GRID.

Finally, the grid is the ONLY way that we can deliver the amount of power needed
to residences to move even a small percent of our transportataion energy from
Oil to Electricity via battery powered vehicles.

And that last one is KEY.

Currently only 1% of our electricity is used for transportation and 95% of our
transportation energy comes from Oil, most of which is imported.

To switch to EVs and other battery assisted vehicles like the Volt will require
the ability to almost double the amount of power that is delivered to private
residences over the grid. Distributed PV won't play a role in this because the
primary time period for charging these cars will be overnight.

So WHY the smart grid?

Well one of the main drivers for the cost of grid based electricity is the sharp
daily and seasonal peaks that the electric power companies have to provide for.
To provide these peaks a lot of very expensive standby generation equipment has
to be held as "spinning reserves".

http://www.calseia.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/hourly-electricity-demand.jpg

The Smart Grid will allow the power company to charge users based on Time of Day
of use, and the higher prices during peak periods will, via behavior changes
from users, move more of this power use OFF PEAK (like charging your EV).

The net result will be much better utilization of the grid and the existing
infrastructure, and so while the amount of electricity delivered over the grid
will go up by quite a bit, the AVERAGE cost per kWh will stay about the same or
possibly go down a bit.

Which is what has been the case for the last 40 years.

In fact the average retail price of electricity, adjusted for inflation, was
lower in 1999 than it was in 1960.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/page/fact_sheets/retailfig1.gif

So why is the govt involved in this?

Simple, it takes about $120 per meter to switch to a smart meter, but you can't
switch to TOD usage until all users are swithed. If consumers had to pay
directly for the new meter, that would take a long time. This way simply
shortens the time frame and since it is paid for by our taxes, the charge is
PROGRESSIVE (make more, pay more), vs a direct charge on the electric bill which
would be REGRESSIVE (make less pay same as make more).

Arthur


--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, OffGridSolar@... wrote:
>
> What is happening with the funding for the smart grid is not the solution
> that we need. First of all as you stated the electric utility companies are
> receiving these funds to spend on up grading their grids. How stupid is
> that!  Lets look at this closer. The feds are giving electric utility
companies
> money  to fix the grid. How does that affect the utility companies
> customers? Here is  what is happening. The electric utility companies are
still
> raising the prices  of a KW. Do we benefit? No; we will pay more for electric
> power. The only one  that benefits are the electric utility companies. Simple.
> So again we as  tax payers are paying twice for electric power. One in
> taxes for upgrading the  grid. Second for electric power.

Now in every major supermarket in UK has been installed a network of
electric car recharging points outside the stores.So that consumers can
recharge their electric car while shopping. Read more at
http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
<http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We love windmills and there's no denying it - they definitely have a certain
appeal. They creaked noisily around in their charmingly inefficient way and did
an amazing thing.  They harnessed the power of the wind to facilitate activities
like the baking of bread.

Modern wind turbines are beautiful things. Within their graceful structures they
prove to be masterworks of form and function.  They whirl with a phenomenal
level of efficiency so as to prevent us from frying the planet. And the great
news is that the wind cannot be over farmed.  What's not to like?

At the end of the day we can note that all of our most notable sources of energy
are generated via the heavens and the earth. The nuclear fusion of small atom
allows energy to shine down on our planet, the nuclear fission of large atoms
continues to allow heat to rise up from below while gravitational attraction
between the moon and the Earth allows both objects to continue to spin around in
their merry way. There's just one problem. Nuclear fuels are a finite resource
and this begs the question as to what will happen when this fuel is gone. How
might future generations regard our generation once we've completed not only the
glazing of the atmosphere but also the stripping of the most valuable resources
that our planet has to offer.

The word atmosphere means sphere of water.  Perhaps the description is apt.  A
heated atmosphere may, depending on the weather, hold more water than a cold
atmosphere.  A heated earth could, onoccasion, turn into a form of steam room
while, on later occasions, it would become a shower.  Floods may be devastating
.  Winds may be high.  Future generations may want to build wind turbines but
they may have difficulties in ensuring their survival.

It is possible that future generations will look back at our "modern" wind
turbines and view them amongst the most beautiful things that man has ever
produced. We look back on old styled windmills with nostalgia as we give respect
to the great efforts that our ancestors made just to feed themselves. Future
generations will look at our wind turbines with nostalgia knowing that the
turbines were built to help secure their future.

Wind turbines need to be built but, more than that, they need to be successfully
integrated into the power networks of our planet.  The problem with wind
turbines is that they only work when the wind blows. So what can we do?  The
best option would be to institute a tiered pricing structure for electricity and
pass any necessary legislation so that our very high powered industries might
only operate at times when green energy is available.  If we had
cheaperelectricity on windy days then these would be the days on which people
would stay in to do the washing and to use their power tools.  We could also
have an industry that was based on a greener form of revolution.

more at Attempts at Survival
http://www.attempts.org.uk
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=149310585856

A project to develop a new all-electric urban car, that will be affordable for
many consumers when it reaches market and manufactured using an innovative and
sustainable production process has been announced in the UK. It comes at a time
when many companies are announcing development programs for electric or zero
emission vehicles , hybrids and plug-in hybrids but how these vehicles are made
may be as important to the environment as the fuel they do or don't use.

http://www.greencarmagazine.net/2009/11/how-green-are-zero-emission-vehicles/

Not only is Arthur wrong but he has already admitted to being a software writer
and is just using this post to promote a solar calculator program he wrote.

How many people want a solar calculator program from a guy that doesn't use
solar, has never lived off grid and thinks and lives like this:


  "One can live like I do in a 100 year old home built by craftsman out of solid
oak, with 5 fireplaces, two staircases (one with an electric chair for the
elderly), 4 bedrooms (Master with bath and a nursery that is used as my office),
living room, dining room, foyer, parlor, 3 1/2 bathrooms, laundry, a 14x14 ft
kitchen with a butler's pantry, two ovens and an indoor grill, a full basement,
a two car garage, a glassed in sunroom, a 2nd level screened porch, and a large
open porch on the front of the house for hanging out and talking to the
neighbors as they walk by."

This is a prime example of the thinking and lifestyle that has caused the US to
have energy and pollution problems and it is people like this that want to work
against alternative energy and more efficient homes because they just don't want
to change and can't stand anyone that suggests they do.

When the smart grid is put into effect people like this will be penalized with
higher rates for electricity. All smart grid homes will be monitored and people
using more during peak hours will be charged more and that is how it should be
as it is wasteful people like this that create the need for more dirty coal
electricity, create more pollution, and then want all tax payers to fix the
problem.

Homes like this are a thing of the past and smaller more efficient homes with
alternative energy are the future- bury the dinosaurs!

LaMar Utah USA
www.simplesolarhomesteading.com
www.homesteadernews.com



--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, OffGridSolar@... wrote:
>
> Arthur, No you are wrong. More and more people, companies and even
> governments are going off grid. The logic is simple. Pay now or pay the rest
of
> your life. I know it is hard for most to understand off grid. I also know off
> grid in the past was for a need where the grid did not exist. Now things
> are  changing. More and more people are fed up with the grid. Now just think
> about  that, look around off grid is coming fast and expanding. Why? Lamar is
> not the  only one talking about going off grid. You would be surprised as
> to how many off  grid applications that are installed today. Please don't
> think that we must have  the grid to live. If you feel that going off grid is
> wrong or something I would  like to know why you don't understand. Our lives
> are not based around the grid.  The grid is a choice now. Years ago we were
> dependent upon the grid for  everything.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Wrong again Lamar.

You stated:

"Still going on protecting your precious grid power ARD ?
You better do some real investigating and research as over 80% of US power comes
from dirty coal generators"


So you said "US POWER", not ELECTRICAL power.

But it hardly matters since you were wrong in either case.

Only 50% of our Electrical power comes from coal.

Only 23% of our total power comes from coal.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epaxlfilees1.pdf

Oh, and there is no movement off the grid.

The VAST majority of new homes are grid connected.

Arthur


--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, "solarman" <lamar5292@...> wrote:
>
> Ard, you need to start actually reading posts before you argue that people are
wrong!
>
> I stated that over 80% of grid electricity comes from dirty coal power plants
and you just supplied the data that proves it.
>
> Grid power does not come from oil. You are giving national energy use profiles
and not data for grid electricity. Don't try to confuse people by using
incorrect data for non grid power as support (thats called lying).
>
> I have never said there will not be a grid but the grid of the future is not
what you have now and it going to cost YOU as a grid owner to pay for the
changes that are coming!
>
> Read these articles and then tell me you will have cheap grid electricity in
the future. Smart people are getting off the grid before the rates skyrocket and
grid homes are forced to use less power or pay higher rates.
>

LOL
My home was featured in an issue of American Bungalow, as an example of a early
cross between European Victorian and American Bungalow design.
http://www.americanbungalow.com/pdf/AB%20Ad%20Kit%202009.pdf
The very attractive house was designed by a woman. A well known Dutch artist at
the turn of the century who was married to the Federal Circuit judge for this
district. The house is so old, it has a name, it's called El Nido.
It sits high on a ridge overlooking the Tennessee River Valley and it was very
well constructed by true crafstman. It's built out of all quarter sawn oak. It
has 6 foot gables/porches all around the house which prevent summer heat gain
but allow plenty of winter light into the house. It's covered in Cedar shakes,
and painted dark green to blend into the hill side. When I had it reshaked, I
had insulation blown into the walls (8" thick walls, with lathe and plaster, the
house is so dense that if you can't see the person, you really can't talk to
them).
I'm the 8th family to occupy it, so in essense it's quite a REUSABLE structure
and will easily be here a hundred years after your shack has been torn down for
being an EYE SORE.

If the price of PV continues to go down I'll eventually put in PV panels over
the top screened in porch, since it has a flat roof and the panels can be
oriented to the South, and use the power they provide to supplant grid based
electricity.

Arthur

--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, "solarman" <lamar5292@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Now how many people would want to visit your home and ask for plans Ard ?
>

Wrong again Lamar.

The Smart Grid will, over time, save consumers money.

Several key points:
A) The use of smart meters will allow for Time Of Day pricing.

B) TOD pricing will cause consumers/businesses to structure their usage to
reduce usage during peak times when the price per kWh is the highest.

C) This removes pressure from the Utility to build capacity for these costly
peaks and will slow down the need for new plants, and believe me, the most
expensive electricity is the electricity you get only by building a new
generation facility.

You really should understand this concept since you use it yourself.

You didn't install enough PV panels & batteries to run your shop tools or
Microwave.

Why?

Because to provide sufficient Panels and batteries for these somewhat infrequent
PEAK uses would have driven up the cost of the PV system to much higher levels.

Instead you go to your Gas Generator, which costs far more than your PV system
per KiloWatt hour of electricity produced, but since you only use it for short
periods, it is still cheaper than adding more BASE LOAD capacity.

Same for the Power companies.

Their base load power is from their cheapest generation systems while the peak
power (typically Natural Gas) is much more expensive to provide.

Arthur


--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, "solarman" <lamar5292@...> wrote:
>
> Ard you need to educate yourself as all grid home owners do to the smart grid
technology you are going to have to pay for in higher utility rates!
>
> Read these articles and then tell me you will have cheap grid electricity in
the future. Smart people are getting off the grid before the rates skyrocket and
grid homes are forced to use less power or pay higher rates.
>
> What is worse is people like me that are not grid connected are paying as much
out of our taxes for the smart grid upgrade as people that are grid connected!
>
> READ THESE CAREFULLY:
>
> Smart grid wikipedia-
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid
>
> Will anyone pay for the smart grid ?
>
>
http://news.cnet.com/Will-anyone-pay-for-the-smart-power-grid/2100-11392_3-61840\
46.html
>
> Is the smart grid vulnerable to hackers ?
>
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,511648,00.html
>
> Smart grid news-
>
> http://www.buildings.com/ArticleDetails/tabid/3321/ArticleID/5821/Default.aspx
>
> Smart grid to be in 80% of states-
>
>
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/smart-grid-projects-in-80-percent-of-us-\
states,1031934.shtml
>
> 23 advanced control systems for smart grid-
>
> http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS240429+05-Nov-2009+PRN20091105
>
> Smart grid is being bungled-
>
> http://www.smartgridnews.com/artman/publish/jessbers/
>
> LaMar Utah USA
> >

I'm not wrong.

Consider:
Grid delivered electricity in the US since 1996
In  Thousand Mega Watt Hours per year

2007 4,156,745
2006 4,064,702
2005 4,055,423
2004 3,970,555
2003 3,883,185
2002 3,858,452
2001 3,736,644
2000 3,802,105
1999 3,694,810
1998 3,620,295
1997 3,492,172
1996 3,444,188

Now compare that to PV sales and you will find that TOTAL PV sales in the US can
at best deliver about 1/10th of a percent of our annual electricity usage, and
the fact is MOST of the PV sales are for off grid use, but mainly for off grid
lighting/sensors/communication uses, not to power personal off grid dwellings.

The FACT of the matter is most people who do install home based PV systems are
ALSO attached to the Grid and use it to reduce their monthly bill, but still use
the grid for their peak needs and for when the sun doesn't shine.

Arthur


--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, OffGridSolar@... wrote:
>
> Arthur, No you are wrong. More and more people, companies and even
> governments are going off grid. The logic is simple. Pay now or pay the rest
of
> your life. I know it is hard for most to understand off grid. I also know off
> grid in the past was for a need where the grid did not exist. Now things
> are  changing. More and more people are fed up with the grid. Now just think
> about  that, look around off grid is coming fast and expanding. Why? Lamar is
> not the  only one talking about going off grid. You would be surprised as
> to how many off  grid applications that are installed today. Please don't
> think that we must have  the grid to live. If you feel that going off grid is
> wrong or something I would  like to know why you don't understand. Our lives
> are not based around the grid.  The grid is a choice now. Years ago we were
> dependent upon the grid for  everything.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Nice Graft. It says nothing at all about what is going on today. I
understand that for some reason you think that the grid saves us a lot of
headaches. It is proven that people die when the grid fails. Why do you think so
many hospitals have stand by generators if the grid is so reliable and great?
Why would a home owner spend $20,000.00 on a back up generator? You must
understand that the world is advancing. It is up to you to do what you want
to  do with advancements. Does your TV use a antenna anymore. Can you go to a
  ATM  anytime you want to bank? You may not like the advances that have
been  made but sooner or later you will be left behind. How much time and money
are  you saving using the intranet over the US mail. It is important and
good that  your dependent upon the grid. Not all of us are dependent upon the
grid. Germany  has reduced their grids need by 47% in the last 5 years. Why?
Do they know  something that we don't! Someday maybe someone will come up
with a discovery  that will change your mind about the grid. This is why I am
not wasting my time  to explain whey energy independence is so important to
our future. Paying for  something that does not work does not make sense to
me and many others. Now the  technology is available for you to generate
your own electric power. Now think  about it.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

How about using wind generated power to pump water from a low reservoir to a
higher reservoir and generate power as needed from the higher reservoir;
sort of closed loop.  Ken



-----Original Message-----
From: renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gregkaye
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 6:24 AM
To: renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [renewable-energy] The "beauty" of wind turbines (as will be
recognised by future generations)





We love windmills and there's no denying it - they definitely have a certain
appeal. They creaked noisily around in their charmingly inefficient way and
did an amazing thing. They harnessed the power of the wind to facilitate
activities like the baking of bread.

Modern wind turbines are beautiful things. Within their graceful structures
they prove to be masterworks of form and function. They whirl with a
phenomenal level of efficiency so as to prevent us from frying the planet.
And the great news is that the wind cannot be over farmed. What's not to
like?

At the end of the day we can note that all of our most notable sources of
energy are generated via the heavens and the earth. The nuclear fusion of
small atom allows energy to shine down on our planet, the nuclear fission of
large atoms continues to allow heat to rise up from below while
gravitational attraction between the moon and the Earth allows both objects
to continue to spin around in their merry way. There's just one problem.
Nuclear fuels are a finite resource and this begs the question as to what
will happen when this fuel is gone. How might future generations regard our
generation once we've completed not only the glazing of the atmosphere but
also the stripping of the most valuable resources that our planet has to
offer.

The word atmosphere means sphere of water. Perhaps the description is apt. A
heated atmosphere may, depending on the weather, hold more water than a cold
atmosphere. A heated earth could, onoccasion, turn into a form of steam room
while, on later occasions, it would become a shower. Floods may be
devastating . Winds may be high. Future generations may want to build wind
turbines but they may have difficulties in ensuring their survival.

It is possible that future generations will look back at our "modern" wind
turbines and view them amongst the most beautiful things that man has ever
produced. We look back on old styled windmills with nostalgia as we give
respect to the great efforts that our ancestors made just to feed
themselves. Future generations will look at our wind turbines with nostalgia
knowing that the turbines were built to help secure their future.

Wind turbines need to be built but, more than that, they need to be
successfully integrated into the power networks of our planet. The problem
with wind turbines is that they only work when the wind blows. So what can
we do? The best option would be to institute a tiered pricing structure for
electricity and pass any necessary legislation so that our very high powered
industries might only operate at times when green energy is available. If we
had cheaperelectricity on windy days then these would be the days on which
people would stay in to do the washing and to use their power tools. We
could also have an industry that was based on a greener form of revolution.

more at Attempts at Survival
http://www.attempts <http://www.attempts.org.uk> .org.uk
http://www.facebook
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=149310585856>
.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=149310585856





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You can expect this to start happening in the US as well as soon as the smart
grid is set up.

One of the advantages of the smart grid is it will lower home use power by
helping people reduce power use during peak hours and forcing those that don't
to change by charging higher power costs. By reducing home use of power there
will be more power for electric cars.

The plan is for people to be able to recharge electric cars at night from their
homes when power draw is at its lowest.

Once the smart grid is in place then car manufacturers will release many new
electric cars on the market and there will probably be some fed tax help to
people that buy them and get rid of gas cars.

It will take a number of years but eventually I believe you will see very few
gas cars on roads and diesel trucks will be held to higher EPA standards for
pollution and be using different diesel or different motors. Big trucks are
still necessary to move cargo and until they can be designed to use electricity
diesel will still be used.

The EPA has already been given power to regulate this but is holding off until
the smart grid is in place and then I think you will see some major changes in
car efficiency and pollution standards that will leave many cars off the road.

These changes will reduce our dependence on foreign oil and clean up the air
pollution at the same time. It will probably also help people financially as
they use less home power and need fewer repairs and no fuel for their cars.

I also hope it leads to more back to earth people that want to grow their own
local food instead of having it trucked in- I dream!

LaMar
www.simplesolarhomesteading.com


--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, "jengsett" <jengsett@...> wrote:
>
> Now in every major supermarket in UK has been installed a network of
> electric car recharging points outside the stores.So that consumers can
> recharge their electric car while shopping. Read more at
> http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
> <http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Battery overflow is NOT normal.

Batteries typically have a FULL indicator which shows when they have sufficient
water.
If you fill to this level AFTER CHARGING the battery will have sufficient head
room to allow for thermal expansion and not overflow even if the battery warms
up.

If the batteries are discharged, only add water if the plates are exposed. Add
just enough water to cover the plates, then charge the batteries. Once fully
charged, add water to the proper level as indicated above

http://www.trojanbattery.com/BatteryMaintenance/WateringDiagram.aspx

Arthur

--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, "solarman" <lamar5292@...> wrote:
>
> Some battery over flow is normal especially after refilling cells.
>

There are plenty of free solar design calculators written by people that
actually live and use solar so why would someone want one from a guy that
doesn't use solar and lives in a house like this:

"One can live like I do in a 100 year old home built by craftsman out of solid
oak, with 5 fireplaces, two staircases (one with an electric chair for the
elderly), 4 bedrooms (Master with bath and a nursery that is used as myoffice),
living room, dining room, foyer, parlor, 3 1/2 bathrooms, laundry, a 14x14 ft
kitchen with a butler's pantry, two ovens and an indoor grill, a full basement,
a two car garage, a glassed in sunroom, a 2nd level screened porch, and a large
open porch on the front of the house for hanging out and talking to the
neighbors as they walk by." Ardoucette

Does that sound like someone to get advice from about efficient use of energy
and sound solar principles ?

Here are free solar design calculators written by people that use and live with
solar:

http://www.advancepower.net/advcalc.htm

http://www.solarray.com/solarsizer_v1_3.html?thebutton=_level0.house.inner.refri\
geration&activebutton=tools

http://www.solarexpert.com/Pvmodule.html

Theres lots more out there and almost any solar company has one on there
website. Don't be fooled by people with no solar experience pushing software as
there is probably a reason $$$$

LaMar
www.simplesolarhomesteading.com









--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, "ardoucette" <adoucette@...> wrote:
>
> Nope, I'm a software designer and I work from my home.
>
> I pay for gas and electricity like everyone else and would always like to
figure out to pay less.
>
> As such, I'm pretty good at keeping my energy needs down. I've done those
things that can be reasonably done with my 100 year old home, but it is in a
Natl Historical Area and so I am limited in that I can't change the exterior, or
areas visible from the street.
>
> I'm also very interested in generating my own power, but I'm not interested in
doing it for ideologial reasons, only financial ones.
>
> Thus I have done several things:
>
> I studied the field, I collecting information about the technology, the
various types of installations, the installed cost per watt of PV solutions, the
life expectancy of the equipment and amount of upkeep and finally the amount of
electricity produced relative to rated capacity, particlularly for the
conditions where I live.
>
> From this information I created a Solar PV cost calculator (which I have
posted in the Files section of this Group). One of the differences between my
Calculator is it considers the value of an alternative investment to see if
making the large up front expenditure for a PV system is a good financial
decision.
>
> What I get from the Solar PV calculator is that Solar PV is not yet cost
effective FOR ME in my particular situation.
>
> For other situations, like those where it would cost a lot to get hooked to
the grid, then spending that high connection cost for your own generation
capability changes the cost equation considerably.
>
> My area is going to allow net metering in the near future and so I'm now
working on evaluating the impact this would have, to be able to use the grid to
sell your excess power. If they also go with off peak pricing, then this would
add another dimension to the financial equation. It appears that this could make
PV a bit more affordable, but there are a lot of variables to consider.
>
> What I find interesting is that the people who attack me about this have yet
to actually show me where the calculations in the Solar PV calculator are wrong.
I welcome your input and will adjust the calculator if anyone shows where it is
in error.
>
> In a recent post, Lamar touted his $50 per month savings in electricity, but I
have no idea how he came up with those savings.
> In my case, I get over 600 kWhrs of electricity for $50, and that would cost
me about $20,000 (after 30% tax credit) to produce that much power on an average
annual basis with a grid-tie PV system. Since even at a good interest rate, the
interest on a $20k loan is over $100 per month, you just can't make that
equation work.
>
> Oh, and I DO think about it, and I know that electricity will go up in price.
My Solar Calculator has it going up 2% per year, and you can change that
assumption to see the impact of even a faster rise in rates.
>
> BUT
>
> At the same time the installed cost per Watt of residential size PV systems
continues to go down, so one can expect that if these trends continue that PV
will become a viable alternative for more and more people.
>
> In fact, if you live in a state that is giving credits ABOVE the Federal
level, and if you live in an area that has higher than average insolation, and
you are modest in your electrial energy use, then the time for you might be now.
>
> Oh, and one final point, the Grid will never go away, and in fact, over time
the energy on the grid is likely to get ever greener, so being "against the
grid" is to me, a very silly position to take, and clearly out of touch with the
reality of a country with over 300 million residents today and that will have
over 350 million by 2020.
>
> Arthur
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, OffGridSolar@ wrote:
> >
> > Arthur, Are you a banker, oil guy, investor or invested in electric
> > utility? Arthur just think about this. How much money have you spent on
electric
> > power over the last 20 years? Now look again at the cost of a solar pv
> > system  again. Now think about how much it will cost you in electric power
for
> > the next  20 years. Do you see where I am going with this? Just please think
> > about it.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

For your consideration:

      PelicanWeb Journal of Sustainable Development ~ November 2009
      http://www.pelicanweb.org/solisustv05n11page1.html

          Section 1. Education for Sustainable Development (ESD)
          Section 2. Integral Human Development (IHD)
          Section 3. ESD/IHD and the Gender Continuum
          Section 4. ESD/IHD and the End of Patriarchy
          Section 5. ESD/IHD and the Culture of Solidarity
          Section 6. ESD/IHD and the Culture of Sustainability
          Section 7. ESD/IHD and the Role of Technology
          Section 8. Progress Report on the 2009 Surveys
          Section 9. The Tripod of Prayer, Study, and Action

This is Part 8 of the series on "Education for Sustainable Development."

Sincerely,
Luis

Luis T. Gutierrez, PhD
Editor, PelicanWeb Journal of Sustainable Development
Home: pelicanweb.org ~ Email: pelican@...
A monthly, free subscription, open access e-journal.

The Solar Impulse project is pursuing the objective of circumnavigating the
Earth powered only by sunlight. The German Aerospace Center (Deutsches Zentrum
für Luft- und Raumfahrt; DLR) has played a significant role in the development
of this visionary flying technology platform, which has now been awarded the
Braunschweig Research Prize.

http://www.greencarmagazine.net/2009/11/circumnavigating-the-earth-in-a-solar-po\
wered-plane/

The first solar-powered plane will soon be on trial with the prototype
in the water base near Zurich next week. Read more at
http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
<http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Absolutely and I know many that do and have helped build some very fine off grid
homes that would put many grid homes to shame.

I designed my cabin specifically to fit my needs and as an example and help for
people that need small inexpensive off-grid homes.

Right now there are many people losing their homes and jobs and are looking for
ideas for homes they can afford and be payed off quickly so they have no house
payments.

My cabin was built for under $2000 and uses 350 watt solar electric system under
$3000. That is a starter home that can be expanded or designed to fit other
peoples needs or just used for ideas to design your own small efficient off-grid
home. I do not expect everyone to live as I do and am thrilled to see other
small home designs.

I have helped many people to design their own smaller solar homes using these
basic principles and some have built them larger for families and furnished them
very lavishly depending on their money but they all recognized the need to have
a smaller home that was energy efficient and have no house payments and no
utility bills.

There are also many many people in this world that could never afford the size
of homes most US citizens live in and they deserve homes as much as we do and I
help them with plans.

Many people do not want to have house payments and utility bills and that means
designing a home they can afford to pay for with cash and using alternative
energy and an energy efficient design.

Large homes built with old standards are completely inefficient and useless to
someone trying to use alternative energy. The LEED program is now setting the
standard for new alternative energy homes and is promoting smaller homes and
designed for active and passive solar energy.

That will be the future of new homes and old dinosaur homes that look pretty but
are power wasters will no longer be desirable. They will drop in value as people
no longer want them and unless they can be retrofitted to be more energy
efficient they will be torn down and buried as they should be.

The dinosaurs were unable to adapt to a changing climate and some people are
dinosaurs that will never change or only change when forced to.

The smart grid is going to encourage people to change and force those that won't
by charging them more for their electricity- that is the whole idea behind smart
grid!

LaMar
www.simplesolarhomesteading.com



--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, "Charles M. Niquette" <cmniquette@...>
wrote:
>
> You can live well and still be off the grid.
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ardoucette
> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 12:55 PM
> To: renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [renewable-energy] Re: The true cost of grid v. solar/wind power
>
>
>
>
> Lamar,
>
> I'm not pushing ANYTHING on ANYONE and you know it.
>
> Nor am I interfering with the discussion.
>
> I am injecting some sanity into your post about the true cost of grid v
> solar power, since I created a solar calculator that lets people find out if
> solar works for their unique situation.
>
> As to bad decision of lifestyle.
>
> I've seen your 14x14 shack and I wouldn't change with you for anything.
>
> The fact is, people can live in a 14x14 ft unpainted shack where the friggin
> doors can't even open inward because that would take up too much space, and
> you have to climb a ladder to get to the 'loft' and have to start an
> electric generator to run the microwave....
>
> OR
>
> One can live like I do in a 100 year old home built by craftsman out of
> solid oak, with 5 fireplaces, two staircases (one with an electric chair for
> the elderly), 4 bedrooms (Master with bath and a nursery that is used as my
> office), living room, dining room, foyer, parlor, 3 1/2 bathrooms, laundry,
> a 14x14 ft kitchen with a butler's pantry, two ovens and an indoor grill, a
> full basement, a two car garage, a glassed in sunroom, a 2nd level screened
> porch, and a large open porch on the front of the house for hanging out and
> talking to the neighbors as they walk by.
>
> But
>
> I also think that there are a number of people who live off grid, but don't
> live in a shack. Some of the posts on this and other forums show how one can
> live off grid in a decent home, with the typical middle class or better
> ammenities.
>
> Arthur
>
> --- In renewable-energy@ <mailto:renewable-energy%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, "solarman" <lamar5292@> wrote:
> >
> > BUT THAT'S YOUR CHOICE ARD!
> >
> > You made your bed now lay in it and stop pushing your bad decision of
> lifestyle on everyone else.
> >
> > That is the whole point of this post is to give people choices and all you
> have done is bitch that you can't do it!
> >
> > So let those who can discuss it without your interference please!!!
> >
> > LaMar Utah USA
> > www.simplesolarhomesteading.com
> >
> > --- In renewable-energy@ <mailto:renewable-energy%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, "ardoucette" <adoucette@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Absolutely.
> > >
> > > And clearly using PV for off grid generation of electricity offers a
> segment of the population the ability to live where otherwise it might not
> be practical.
> > >
> > > But I live in a city.
> > >
> > > My 100+ year old house has been hooked to the grid since it was built.
> > >
> > > I love my house and moving is not something I care to do.
> > >
> > > The only issue for me is: Can I generate electricity for less than it
> costs me to buy it from the local power company?
> > >
> > > Well the simple answer to that is: Not at the present time.
> > >
> > > There are several reasons for that:
> > >
> > > One, I'm not in an overly "sun friendly location", Of course if I lived,
> say in the SW of the US, it would be different, but I don't.
> > >
> > > Two, My electrical company provides electricity at rates quite a bit
> below the National Average. I pay about 7c per kWh, and that's an all in
> rate.
> > >
> > > Three, My electrical service is very reliable, and I've never had a long
> outage. i.e. I've never once had to throw out the contents of the fridge.
> > >
> > > Of course, changes in costs over time may change this, and that's why I
> created the PV - Solar Sizing calculator (see files for various versions)
> which allows me to easily plug in different values, cost of electricity,
> cost of panels, tax rebates etc as they change, and reevaluate as things
> change.
> > >
> > > So, I'd love for you to "prove ... that off grid is practical and cost
> effective".
> > >
> > > You could start by evalutaing my PV Solar Calculators and tell me where
> they are wrong.
> > >
> > >
> > > Arthur
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In renewable-energy@ <mailto:renewable-energy%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, OffGridSolar@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Arthur, Do you not know of any off grid systems in use today? Would
> you
> > > > like to see photos of off grid applications. These off grid systems
> have been
> > > > in use for many years. If you do it right off grid is not that hard to
> make
> > > > happen. Would you like me to send you photos of installations using
> solar
> > > > PV in off grid locations. Forget fuel, it is truly not used in any of
> these
> > > > applications. Lamar did not invest enough in solar panels. This is the
>
> > > > problem. I can make any existing home large or small off grid. Here is
> my
> > > > goal. If I prove to you and everyone that going off grid is the best
> solution
> > > > would you stop the negative e-mails and arguments. If I prove to you
> without
> > > > a reasonable doubt that off grid is practical and cost effective. The
> next
> > > > step is for me to prove it. I will do this.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Every post you make about the grid is wrong Lamar.
Try doing some research before you post.

While it is true that not a large percent of our Electric power comes from oil,
it does provide substantially MORE power than Wind and Solar combined.

And of course it also depends on WHERE you live.

In Alaska and Hawaii for instance, oil accounts for over HALF of the grid
electricity.

In New England, it provides 10% and in the Mid Atlantic states it provides 7%.

Out west, where you live, oil is about 1% because of the abundance of cheap coal
and plenty of hydro.

Or maybe you want to compare Oil to Solar/PV?

Solar/PV in 2008 produced 843 MegaWatt Hours of electricity in the US.

In comparison Oil produced 31 MILLION MegaWatt hours.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/alternate/page/renew_energy_consump/table3.html

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table1_1.html

Arthur



--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, "solarman" <lamar5292@...> wrote:
>
> Grid power does not come from oil.

That is not the first solar powered plane. NASA made one years ago.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

While some aspects of the Smart Grid I agree with like allowing more alternative
energy into the system and penalizing people that use power unnecessarily during
peak hours there are some aspects like the home monitoring and new smart chip
appliances that (if I were on grid) scares the heck out of me and you should
really read and understand what is being proposed for homes connected to smart
grid.

These are news articles from industry professionals:

READ THESE CAREFULLY:

Smart grid wikipedia-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid

Will anyone pay for the smart grid ?

http://news.cnet.com/Will-anyone-pay-for-the-smart-power-grid/2100-11392_3-61840\
\46.html

Is the smart grid vulnerable to hackers ?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,511648,00.html

Smart grid news-

http://www.buildings.com/ArticleDetails/tabid/3321/ArticleID/5821/Default.aspx

Smart grid to be in 80% of states-

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/smart-grid-projects-in-80-percent-of-us-\
\states,1031934.shtml

23 advanced control systems for smart grid-

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS240429+05-Nov-2009+PRN20091105

Smart grid is being bungled-

http://www.smartgridnews.com/artman/publish/jessbers/

LaMar Utah USA
www.simplesolarhomesteading.com

Ken, We have a Texan that is pumping water using wind turbines. That works
well.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Total horsepucky.

There is NO WAY that 47% of German houses got disconnected from the grid over
the last 5 years.

Germany is Europe's largest energy market. At a total length of approx. 1.7
million kilometres, not only does Germany have the most extensive electricity
grid in Europe, but also the most reliable one.

http://www.vattenfall.com/germangrid/downloads/Electricity-grid-facts.pdf

Where do you come up with these totally bogus ideas?

If people would die if you lose power, like a hospital, then OF COURSE you would
have a back up generator.

But if a hospital ran on PV solar/batteries it would ALSO have a back up
generator.

But I've NEVER met a homeowner on the grid who owned one.

Of course some small percentage do, but it't NOT a common occurance either.

And if you DID feel like you needed one, it wouldn't cost the typical homeowner
anywhere neer $20,000

A unit that would produce 16,000 watts, more than enough for any reasonable size
house, is only $7,000.

http://www.emergencypower.com/diesel-generators/20-kva-diesel-standby-generator/

A much more LIKELY home unit for occasional outages and to be able to run key
things like your fridge, freezer, some lights etc would only cost about $1,600
and produce about 6,000 watts.

http://www.emergencypower.com/diesel-generators/6500-watt-silent-diesel-generato\
r/

On the other hand, virtually every person who relies on off grid PV solar for
their energy DOES have a back up generator.

The grid is NOT going away.

In fact as the links recently provided show the US is spending tens of Billions
of dollars to further improve the grid over the next decade.


--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, OffGridSolar@... wrote:
>
> Nice Graft. It says nothing at all about what is going on today. I
> understand that for some reason you think that the grid saves us a lot of
> headaches. It is proven that people die when the grid fails. Why do you think
so
> many hospitals have stand by generators if the grid is so reliable and great?
> Why would a home owner spend $20,000.00 on a back up generator? You must
> understand that the world is advancing. It is up to you to do what you want
> to  do with advancements. Does your TV use a antenna anymore. Can you go to a
>  ATM  anytime you want to bank? You may not like the advances that have
> been  made but sooner or later you will be left behind. How much time and
money
> are  you saving using the intranet over the US mail. It is important and
> good that  your dependent upon the grid. Not all of us are dependent upon the
> grid. Germany  has reduced their grids need by 47% in the last 5 years. Why?
> Do they know  something that we don't! Someday maybe someone will come up
> with a discovery  that will change your mind about the grid. This is why I am
> not wasting my time  to explain whey energy independence is so important to
> our future. Paying for  something that does not work does not make sense to
> me and many others. Now the  technology is available for you to generate
> your own electric power. Now think  about it.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Lamar, It is one thing to have solar panels reduce electric power during
peak periods. It is another thing to think that the smart grid is for
charging  cars. Now just think about this simple question. When you buy gas at a
station  in the price per gallon you have road use tax. Federal, State and
County Tax.  Now how can the departments of transportation collect taxs for the
roads when  the cars no longer need gas? The answer is easy. They will tax
the use of  electric cars. During my life time gas use to be 25 cents a
gallon when I was younger. Now the road use tax is over 50  cents a gallon. For
a long time I have been trying to figure out how many  watts of electric
power equals a gallon of gas! Once this is figured out you can  be sure our
governments will charge us a road tax for electric power. I may be  wrong in
thinking this way. I don't know. I do know if there is a way we will be
paying more tax for electric power. It will happen during the next 5-6 years.
This is if the electric car takes off and starts to replace fueled cars.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Arthur, I think the solar calculator is a great tool. I have used it many
times. It is easy and fun (if you like math the way I do). Thank you.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In order for a car to claim it is a zero emission vehicle. All the
components must be made from companies that use no fuel in the process for 
making
the components. Once the vehicle is operational then it can claim it  offers
Zero emissions. But is it really! I don't think anything made in any
factory is 100% carbon free.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The United States Department of Energy will power its wind research
facility with a 1.5-megawatt, state-of-the-art wind turbine, the first
large-scale turbine it fully owns.

The department has invested over $5 million since 2008 to procure and
install the wind turbine. Only small turbines were previously installed
in the center.

Read More:
http://www.ecoseed.org/en/general-green-news/green-politics/green-polici\
es/americas/5113


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Attempts to obtain clean and green energy to save the earth could be
done in order to reduce footprints carbon.The International Air
Transport Association (IATA) is committed to find a biofuel in 2010 for
commercial aviation and will soon be realized.Read more at
http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
<http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Why should the construction of an EV or hybrid be held to a higher
standard than the conventional vehicles produced today?  They provide an
advantage in terms of emissions at point of use.  Studies show they are
cleaner than fossil-fuelers even when the electricity comes from 1930s
era coal burning plants.  We can clean up the 'long tailpipe' if we
choose to do so.  It's off-the-shelf technology, but we don't implement
it because it costs more.  Similarly, we don't produce sustainable
vehicles with internal combustion drivetrains because they cost more.
Even the plastic bodied Saturns (not sustainable / biodegradable /
recyclable) were killed by GM because they cost more than steel bodies
and lasted longer (longer time before repeat sales).

Let's take the improvements where we can, even if it is one step at a
time, rather than getting nothing in hopes of getting the perfect
solution in some distant future.

Darryl McMahon

smithgordon46 wrote:
> A project to develop a new all-electric urban car, that will be
> affordable for many consumers when it reaches market and manufactured
> using an innovative and sustainable production process has been
> announced in the UK. It comes at a time when many companies are
> announcing development programs for electric or zero emission
> vehicles , hybrids and plug-in hybrids but how these vehicles are
> made may be as important to the environment as the fuel they do or
> don't use.
>
> http://www.greencarmagazine.net/2009/11/how-green-are-zero-emission-vehicles/
>
>


--
Darryl McMahon

The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (in trade paperback and eBook)
http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/

Journey to Forever reviews The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#tenhe

Arthur, That is great information about the grid. Now do you know how much
electric power is being produced for systems that are off the grid? Find
that  out and you will impress me. This is a intranet group that supports
Renewable  Energy. This is not really about the grid, this is about using
renewable energy  as a replacement for fueled electric generating systems. If we
change 100% to  renewable energy as a source of generating electric power.
Here in the United  States this represent a 25% reduction in producing carbon
and poison in our air,  land and waters. The first use of renewable energy
was to produce electric power  and that was hydro electric systems. This type
of electric power was used to  power Thomas Edison's light bulbs in New
York City. Of all the renewable energy  systems. 75% of all renewable energy is
produced by hydro. Hydro is the only  technology used in the past and today
that can regulate electric power  production. Also hydro is the only
electric generating system that stores  energy. But hydro is not very popular
because it alters rivers. Now for the  other forms of Renewable Energy. Wind is
mechanical and history shows that it is  not reliable. Solar PV is the only
form of Renewable Energy that is sizable;  large or small. When wind or
solar PV is utilized there are no green house gases  produced. You see every one
that wants to make money wants to feed the grid with  renewable energy.
This is not about energy independence at all. This is about  making money.
There are always more than one way to solve a problem. Feeding the  grid does
not save money or make the grid sustainable. You will see that  renewable
energy will cost more in our electric bills. This is the major problem  and it
will increase the burden of cost to everyone. The solution is to produce
electric power on site for homes. Net metering is just another ploy not to save
  money but to reduce the cost of electric power for a home owner. The only
real  way that I know how to save money is to still produce electric power
at a home  but size the system for 100% energy independence. I like your
solar calculator.  When I am asked to size a solar PV system for a home owner. I
first look at his  electric bill to find the highest wattage usage month.
This I use as the minimal  size requirements. I do not just throw solar
panels on a roof and that is it. I  look at the motors needed for all types of
power drain or peak power  requirements. I know that once one of my systems
are installed. Now the home  owner does not care to turn things off like
lights or fans or radios or TVs.  They only look at a solar PV system to
eliminate the high cost of the grid and  the monthly electric bill. You see when
you
buy electric power you have nothing  to show for that expense. Also paying
for electric power is not like  financing a home or car. There is no fixed
monthly bill. I don't know where the  term "Smart Grid" came from. But I do
know; the way we transmit electric power  today will not meet our needs for
very long. To me this is just another money  grab of our tax money. Sure we
need to fix the grid, for the masses. If we don't  the masses will be left in
the dark like in India. Does anyone think that the  smart grid is going to
reduce the cost of electric power? No it will increase  the cost of electric
power to the masses. Here is the real problem. We must buy  electric power
in order to survive. This is a fact. Or we have a choice. The  only choice I
can see is to produce your own electric power. In reality we don't
normally think out of the box. We think that making electric power for ourselves
is too costly. In most cases this is very true. Not too many people can
afford a  off grid system. It is also true that the people that do buy a off
grid
system  do not have a monthly bill for electric power. At least we have a
choice! Pay  for electric power or produce electric power. How many people do
you know that  like paying for electric power? Now ask your self this one
simple question. How  many people do you know that does not like paying for
electric power?  Some people like Lamar has no choice. I don't know how he
went off grid using  different solar panels on his porch. His home my not be
for everyone. It fits  his needs. But he is independent of the grid. He may
use a gas type standby  generator because he did not plan or have the funds
to design a solar PV system.  What I can see from his web page he is off grid
because like other off grid  application there is no grid available. He is
in Utah. Sure the sun shines there  as it does everywhere else. So he is
producing power on his own property. There  are a lot of Lamar type people that
want to control there own future. Do you  think Lamar has any power
outages? Do you think that Lamar cares about the grid;  smart or dumb? No all I
can
see Lamar doing is making people aware that going  off grid does not have
to be expensive. If Lamar had the grid hooked up to his  home. What do you
think he would have spent for electric power over the same  period of time
since he installed his small solar PV system? Lamar has learned  how to
conserve and live within the means of his off grid solar system. I feel  he is
in
control of his needs. I don't think Lamar did this because he  wanted to be
fashionable. I feel he had a need to solve his electrical  problems. So what
if he is off the grid. I say the more power to him. He is  thinking outside
the box. He solved his own problem. I have never met Lamar  but I respect
him for what he has done for himself.  He may or may not be  rich or famous
for what he did. But he does prove one thing. We don't need to  grid to live,
but we do need electric power to live.  Simple!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]