Absolutely and I know many that do and have helped build some very fine off grid
homes that would put many grid homes to shame.

I designed my cabin specifically to fit my needs and as an example and help for
people that need small inexpensive off-grid homes.

Right now there are many people losing their homes and jobs and are looking for
ideas for homes they can afford and be payed off quickly so they have no house
payments.

My cabin was built for under $2000 and uses 350 watt solar electric system under
$3000. That is a starter home that can be expanded or designed to fit other
peoples needs or just used for ideas to design your own small efficient off-grid
home. I do not expect everyone to live as I do and am thrilled to see other
small home designs.

I have helped many people to design their own smaller solar homes using these
basic principles and some have built them larger for families and furnished them
very lavishly depending on their money but they all recognized the need to have
a smaller home that was energy efficient and have no house payments and no
utility bills.

There are also many many people in this world that could never afford the size
of homes most US citizens live in and they deserve homes as much as we do and I
help them with plans.

Many people do not want to have house payments and utility bills and that means
designing a home they can afford to pay for with cash and using alternative
energy and an energy efficient design.

Large homes built with old standards are completely inefficient and useless to
someone trying to use alternative energy. The LEED program is now setting the
standard for new alternative energy homes and is promoting smaller homes and
designed for active and passive solar energy.

That will be the future of new homes and old dinosaur homes that look pretty but
are power wasters will no longer be desirable. They will drop in value as people
no longer want them and unless they can be retrofitted to be more energy
efficient they will be torn down and buried as they should be.

The dinosaurs were unable to adapt to a changing climate and some people are
dinosaurs that will never change or only change when forced to.

The smart grid is going to encourage people to change and force those that won't
by charging them more for their electricity- that is the whole idea behind smart
grid!

LaMar
www.simplesolarhomesteading.com



--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, "Charles M. Niquette" <cmniquette@...>
wrote:
>
> You can live well and still be off the grid.
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ardoucette
> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 12:55 PM
> To: renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [renewable-energy] Re: The true cost of grid v. solar/wind power
>
>
>
>
> Lamar,
>
> I'm not pushing ANYTHING on ANYONE and you know it.
>
> Nor am I interfering with the discussion.
>
> I am injecting some sanity into your post about the true cost of grid v
> solar power, since I created a solar calculator that lets people find out if
> solar works for their unique situation.
>
> As to bad decision of lifestyle.
>
> I've seen your 14x14 shack and I wouldn't change with you for anything.
>
> The fact is, people can live in a 14x14 ft unpainted shack where the friggin
> doors can't even open inward because that would take up too much space, and
> you have to climb a ladder to get to the 'loft' and have to start an
> electric generator to run the microwave....
>
> OR
>
> One can live like I do in a 100 year old home built by craftsman out of
> solid oak, with 5 fireplaces, two staircases (one with an electric chair for
> the elderly), 4 bedrooms (Master with bath and a nursery that is used as my
> office), living room, dining room, foyer, parlor, 3 1/2 bathrooms, laundry,
> a 14x14 ft kitchen with a butler's pantry, two ovens and an indoor grill, a
> full basement, a two car garage, a glassed in sunroom, a 2nd level screened
> porch, and a large open porch on the front of the house for hanging out and
> talking to the neighbors as they walk by.
>
> But
>
> I also think that there are a number of people who live off grid, but don't
> live in a shack. Some of the posts on this and other forums show how one can
> live off grid in a decent home, with the typical middle class or better
> ammenities.
>
> Arthur
>
> --- In renewable-energy@ <mailto:renewable-energy%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, "solarman" <lamar5292@> wrote:
> >
> > BUT THAT'S YOUR CHOICE ARD!
> >
> > You made your bed now lay in it and stop pushing your bad decision of
> lifestyle on everyone else.
> >
> > That is the whole point of this post is to give people choices and all you
> have done is bitch that you can't do it!
> >
> > So let those who can discuss it without your interference please!!!
> >
> > LaMar Utah USA
> > www.simplesolarhomesteading.com
> >
> > --- In renewable-energy@ <mailto:renewable-energy%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, "ardoucette" <adoucette@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Absolutely.
> > >
> > > And clearly using PV for off grid generation of electricity offers a
> segment of the population the ability to live where otherwise it might not
> be practical.
> > >
> > > But I live in a city.
> > >
> > > My 100+ year old house has been hooked to the grid since it was built.
> > >
> > > I love my house and moving is not something I care to do.
> > >
> > > The only issue for me is: Can I generate electricity for less than it
> costs me to buy it from the local power company?
> > >
> > > Well the simple answer to that is: Not at the present time.
> > >
> > > There are several reasons for that:
> > >
> > > One, I'm not in an overly "sun friendly location", Of course if I lived,
> say in the SW of the US, it would be different, but I don't.
> > >
> > > Two, My electrical company provides electricity at rates quite a bit
> below the National Average. I pay about 7c per kWh, and that's an all in
> rate.
> > >
> > > Three, My electrical service is very reliable, and I've never had a long
> outage. i.e. I've never once had to throw out the contents of the fridge.
> > >
> > > Of course, changes in costs over time may change this, and that's why I
> created the PV - Solar Sizing calculator (see files for various versions)
> which allows me to easily plug in different values, cost of electricity,
> cost of panels, tax rebates etc as they change, and reevaluate as things
> change.
> > >
> > > So, I'd love for you to "prove ... that off grid is practical and cost
> effective".
> > >
> > > You could start by evalutaing my PV Solar Calculators and tell me where
> they are wrong.
> > >
> > >
> > > Arthur
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In renewable-energy@ <mailto:renewable-energy%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, OffGridSolar@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Arthur, Do you not know of any off grid systems in use today? Would
> you
> > > > like to see photos of off grid applications. These off grid systems
> have been
> > > > in use for many years. If you do it right off grid is not that hard to
> make
> > > > happen. Would you like me to send you photos of installations using
> solar
> > > > PV in off grid locations. Forget fuel, it is truly not used in any of
> these
> > > > applications. Lamar did not invest enough in solar panels. This is the
>
> > > > problem. I can make any existing home large or small off grid. Here is
> my
> > > > goal. If I prove to you and everyone that going off grid is the best
> solution
> > > > would you stop the negative e-mails and arguments. If I prove to you
> without
> > > > a reasonable doubt that off grid is practical and cost effective. The
> next
> > > > step is for me to prove it. I will do this.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

The first solar-powered plane will soon be on trial with the prototype
in the water base near Zurich next week. Read more at
http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
<http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Solar Impulse project is pursuing the objective of circumnavigating the
Earth powered only by sunlight. The German Aerospace Center (Deutsches Zentrum
für Luft- und Raumfahrt; DLR) has played a significant role in the development
of this visionary flying technology platform, which has now been awarded the
Braunschweig Research Prize.

http://www.greencarmagazine.net/2009/11/circumnavigating-the-earth-in-a-solar-po\
wered-plane/

For your consideration:

      PelicanWeb Journal of Sustainable Development ~ November 2009
      http://www.pelicanweb.org/solisustv05n11page1.html

          Section 1. Education for Sustainable Development (ESD)
          Section 2. Integral Human Development (IHD)
          Section 3. ESD/IHD and the Gender Continuum
          Section 4. ESD/IHD and the End of Patriarchy
          Section 5. ESD/IHD and the Culture of Solidarity
          Section 6. ESD/IHD and the Culture of Sustainability
          Section 7. ESD/IHD and the Role of Technology
          Section 8. Progress Report on the 2009 Surveys
          Section 9. The Tripod of Prayer, Study, and Action

This is Part 8 of the series on "Education for Sustainable Development."

Sincerely,
Luis

Luis T. Gutierrez, PhD
Editor, PelicanWeb Journal of Sustainable Development
Home: pelicanweb.org ~ Email: pelican@...
A monthly, free subscription, open access e-journal.

There are plenty of free solar design calculators written by people that
actually live and use solar so why would someone want one from a guy that
doesn't use solar and lives in a house like this:

"One can live like I do in a 100 year old home built by craftsman out of solid
oak, with 5 fireplaces, two staircases (one with an electric chair for the
elderly), 4 bedrooms (Master with bath and a nursery that is used as myoffice),
living room, dining room, foyer, parlor, 3 1/2 bathrooms, laundry, a 14x14 ft
kitchen with a butler's pantry, two ovens and an indoor grill, a full basement,
a two car garage, a glassed in sunroom, a 2nd level screened porch, and a large
open porch on the front of the house for hanging out and talking to the
neighbors as they walk by." Ardoucette

Does that sound like someone to get advice from about efficient use of energy
and sound solar principles ?

Here are free solar design calculators written by people that use and live with
solar:

http://www.advancepower.net/advcalc.htm

http://www.solarray.com/solarsizer_v1_3.html?thebutton=_level0.house.inner.refri\
geration&activebutton=tools

http://www.solarexpert.com/Pvmodule.html

Theres lots more out there and almost any solar company has one on there
website. Don't be fooled by people with no solar experience pushing software as
there is probably a reason $$$$

LaMar
www.simplesolarhomesteading.com









--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, "ardoucette" <adoucette@...> wrote:
>
> Nope, I'm a software designer and I work from my home.
>
> I pay for gas and electricity like everyone else and would always like to
figure out to pay less.
>
> As such, I'm pretty good at keeping my energy needs down. I've done those
things that can be reasonably done with my 100 year old home, but it is in a
Natl Historical Area and so I am limited in that I can't change the exterior, or
areas visible from the street.
>
> I'm also very interested in generating my own power, but I'm not interested in
doing it for ideologial reasons, only financial ones.
>
> Thus I have done several things:
>
> I studied the field, I collecting information about the technology, the
various types of installations, the installed cost per watt of PV solutions, the
life expectancy of the equipment and amount of upkeep and finally the amount of
electricity produced relative to rated capacity, particlularly for the
conditions where I live.
>
> From this information I created a Solar PV cost calculator (which I have
posted in the Files section of this Group). One of the differences between my
Calculator is it considers the value of an alternative investment to see if
making the large up front expenditure for a PV system is a good financial
decision.
>
> What I get from the Solar PV calculator is that Solar PV is not yet cost
effective FOR ME in my particular situation.
>
> For other situations, like those where it would cost a lot to get hooked to
the grid, then spending that high connection cost for your own generation
capability changes the cost equation considerably.
>
> My area is going to allow net metering in the near future and so I'm now
working on evaluating the impact this would have, to be able to use the grid to
sell your excess power. If they also go with off peak pricing, then this would
add another dimension to the financial equation. It appears that this could make
PV a bit more affordable, but there are a lot of variables to consider.
>
> What I find interesting is that the people who attack me about this have yet
to actually show me where the calculations in the Solar PV calculator are wrong.
I welcome your input and will adjust the calculator if anyone shows where it is
in error.
>
> In a recent post, Lamar touted his $50 per month savings in electricity, but I
have no idea how he came up with those savings.
> In my case, I get over 600 kWhrs of electricity for $50, and that would cost
me about $20,000 (after 30% tax credit) to produce that much power on an average
annual basis with a grid-tie PV system. Since even at a good interest rate, the
interest on a $20k loan is over $100 per month, you just can't make that
equation work.
>
> Oh, and I DO think about it, and I know that electricity will go up in price.
My Solar Calculator has it going up 2% per year, and you can change that
assumption to see the impact of even a faster rise in rates.
>
> BUT
>
> At the same time the installed cost per Watt of residential size PV systems
continues to go down, so one can expect that if these trends continue that PV
will become a viable alternative for more and more people.
>
> In fact, if you live in a state that is giving credits ABOVE the Federal
level, and if you live in an area that has higher than average insolation, and
you are modest in your electrial energy use, then the time for you might be now.
>
> Oh, and one final point, the Grid will never go away, and in fact, over time
the energy on the grid is likely to get ever greener, so being "against the
grid" is to me, a very silly position to take, and clearly out of touch with the
reality of a country with over 300 million residents today and that will have
over 350 million by 2020.
>
> Arthur
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, OffGridSolar@ wrote:
> >
> > Arthur, Are you a banker, oil guy, investor or invested in electric
> > utility? Arthur just think about this. How much money have you spent on
electric
> > power over the last 20 years? Now look again at the cost of a solar pv
> > system  again. Now think about how much it will cost you in electric power
for
> > the next  20 years. Do you see where I am going with this? Just please think
> > about it.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Battery overflow is NOT normal.

Batteries typically have a FULL indicator which shows when they have sufficient
water.
If you fill to this level AFTER CHARGING the battery will have sufficient head
room to allow for thermal expansion and not overflow even if the battery warms
up.

If the batteries are discharged, only add water if the plates are exposed. Add
just enough water to cover the plates, then charge the batteries. Once fully
charged, add water to the proper level as indicated above

http://www.trojanbattery.com/BatteryMaintenance/WateringDiagram.aspx

Arthur

--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, "solarman" <lamar5292@...> wrote:
>
> Some battery over flow is normal especially after refilling cells.
>

You can expect this to start happening in the US as well as soon as the smart
grid is set up.

One of the advantages of the smart grid is it will lower home use power by
helping people reduce power use during peak hours and forcing those that don't
to change by charging higher power costs. By reducing home use of power there
will be more power for electric cars.

The plan is for people to be able to recharge electric cars at night from their
homes when power draw is at its lowest.

Once the smart grid is in place then car manufacturers will release many new
electric cars on the market and there will probably be some fed tax help to
people that buy them and get rid of gas cars.

It will take a number of years but eventually I believe you will see very few
gas cars on roads and diesel trucks will be held to higher EPA standards for
pollution and be using different diesel or different motors. Big trucks are
still necessary to move cargo and until they can be designed to use electricity
diesel will still be used.

The EPA has already been given power to regulate this but is holding off until
the smart grid is in place and then I think you will see some major changes in
car efficiency and pollution standards that will leave many cars off the road.

These changes will reduce our dependence on foreign oil and clean up the air
pollution at the same time. It will probably also help people financially as
they use less home power and need fewer repairs and no fuel for their cars.

I also hope it leads to more back to earth people that want to grow their own
local food instead of having it trucked in- I dream!

LaMar
www.simplesolarhomesteading.com


--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, "jengsett" <jengsett@...> wrote:
>
> Now in every major supermarket in UK has been installed a network of
> electric car recharging points outside the stores.So that consumers can
> recharge their electric car while shopping. Read more at
> http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
> <http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

How about using wind generated power to pump water from a low reservoir to a
higher reservoir and generate power as needed from the higher reservoir;
sort of closed loop.  Ken



-----Original Message-----
From: renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gregkaye
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 6:24 AM
To: renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [renewable-energy] The "beauty" of wind turbines (as will be
recognised by future generations)





We love windmills and there's no denying it - they definitely have a certain
appeal. They creaked noisily around in their charmingly inefficient way and
did an amazing thing. They harnessed the power of the wind to facilitate
activities like the baking of bread.

Modern wind turbines are beautiful things. Within their graceful structures
they prove to be masterworks of form and function. They whirl with a
phenomenal level of efficiency so as to prevent us from frying the planet.
And the great news is that the wind cannot be over farmed. What's not to
like?

At the end of the day we can note that all of our most notable sources of
energy are generated via the heavens and the earth. The nuclear fusion of
small atom allows energy to shine down on our planet, the nuclear fission of
large atoms continues to allow heat to rise up from below while
gravitational attraction between the moon and the Earth allows both objects
to continue to spin around in their merry way. There's just one problem.
Nuclear fuels are a finite resource and this begs the question as to what
will happen when this fuel is gone. How might future generations regard our
generation once we've completed not only the glazing of the atmosphere but
also the stripping of the most valuable resources that our planet has to
offer.

The word atmosphere means sphere of water. Perhaps the description is apt. A
heated atmosphere may, depending on the weather, hold more water than a cold
atmosphere. A heated earth could, onoccasion, turn into a form of steam room
while, on later occasions, it would become a shower. Floods may be
devastating . Winds may be high. Future generations may want to build wind
turbines but they may have difficulties in ensuring their survival.

It is possible that future generations will look back at our "modern" wind
turbines and view them amongst the most beautiful things that man has ever
produced. We look back on old styled windmills with nostalgia as we give
respect to the great efforts that our ancestors made just to feed
themselves. Future generations will look at our wind turbines with nostalgia
knowing that the turbines were built to help secure their future.

Wind turbines need to be built but, more than that, they need to be
successfully integrated into the power networks of our planet. The problem
with wind turbines is that they only work when the wind blows. So what can
we do? The best option would be to institute a tiered pricing structure for
electricity and pass any necessary legislation so that our very high powered
industries might only operate at times when green energy is available. If we
had cheaperelectricity on windy days then these would be the days on which
people would stay in to do the washing and to use their power tools. We
could also have an industry that was based on a greener form of revolution.

more at Attempts at Survival
http://www.attempts <http://www.attempts.org.uk> .org.uk
http://www.facebook
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=149310585856>
.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=149310585856





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nice Graft. It says nothing at all about what is going on today. I
understand that for some reason you think that the grid saves us a lot of
headaches. It is proven that people die when the grid fails. Why do you think so
many hospitals have stand by generators if the grid is so reliable and great?
Why would a home owner spend $20,000.00 on a back up generator? You must
understand that the world is advancing. It is up to you to do what you want
to  do with advancements. Does your TV use a antenna anymore. Can you go to a
  ATM  anytime you want to bank? You may not like the advances that have
been  made but sooner or later you will be left behind. How much time and money
are  you saving using the intranet over the US mail. It is important and
good that  your dependent upon the grid. Not all of us are dependent upon the
grid. Germany  has reduced their grids need by 47% in the last 5 years. Why?
Do they know  something that we don't! Someday maybe someone will come up
with a discovery  that will change your mind about the grid. This is why I am
not wasting my time  to explain whey energy independence is so important to
our future. Paying for  something that does not work does not make sense to
me and many others. Now the  technology is available for you to generate
your own electric power. Now think  about it.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm not wrong.

Consider:
Grid delivered electricity in the US since 1996
In  Thousand Mega Watt Hours per year

2007 4,156,745
2006 4,064,702
2005 4,055,423
2004 3,970,555
2003 3,883,185
2002 3,858,452
2001 3,736,644
2000 3,802,105
1999 3,694,810
1998 3,620,295
1997 3,492,172
1996 3,444,188

Now compare that to PV sales and you will find that TOTAL PV sales in the US can
at best deliver about 1/10th of a percent of our annual electricity usage, and
the fact is MOST of the PV sales are for off grid use, but mainly for off grid
lighting/sensors/communication uses, not to power personal off grid dwellings.

The FACT of the matter is most people who do install home based PV systems are
ALSO attached to the Grid and use it to reduce their monthly bill, but still use
the grid for their peak needs and for when the sun doesn't shine.

Arthur


--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, OffGridSolar@... wrote:
>
> Arthur, No you are wrong. More and more people, companies and even
> governments are going off grid. The logic is simple. Pay now or pay the rest
of
> your life. I know it is hard for most to understand off grid. I also know off
> grid in the past was for a need where the grid did not exist. Now things
> are  changing. More and more people are fed up with the grid. Now just think
> about  that, look around off grid is coming fast and expanding. Why? Lamar is
> not the  only one talking about going off grid. You would be surprised as
> to how many off  grid applications that are installed today. Please don't
> think that we must have  the grid to live. If you feel that going off grid is
> wrong or something I would  like to know why you don't understand. Our lives
> are not based around the grid.  The grid is a choice now. Years ago we were
> dependent upon the grid for  everything.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Wrong again Lamar.

The Smart Grid will, over time, save consumers money.

Several key points:
A) The use of smart meters will allow for Time Of Day pricing.

B) TOD pricing will cause consumers/businesses to structure their usage to
reduce usage during peak times when the price per kWh is the highest.

C) This removes pressure from the Utility to build capacity for these costly
peaks and will slow down the need for new plants, and believe me, the most
expensive electricity is the electricity you get only by building a new
generation facility.

You really should understand this concept since you use it yourself.

You didn't install enough PV panels & batteries to run your shop tools or
Microwave.

Why?

Because to provide sufficient Panels and batteries for these somewhat infrequent
PEAK uses would have driven up the cost of the PV system to much higher levels.

Instead you go to your Gas Generator, which costs far more than your PV system
per KiloWatt hour of electricity produced, but since you only use it for short
periods, it is still cheaper than adding more BASE LOAD capacity.

Same for the Power companies.

Their base load power is from their cheapest generation systems while the peak
power (typically Natural Gas) is much more expensive to provide.

Arthur


--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, "solarman" <lamar5292@...> wrote:
>
> Ard you need to educate yourself as all grid home owners do to the smart grid
technology you are going to have to pay for in higher utility rates!
>
> Read these articles and then tell me you will have cheap grid electricity in
the future. Smart people are getting off the grid before the rates skyrocket and
grid homes are forced to use less power or pay higher rates.
>
> What is worse is people like me that are not grid connected are paying as much
out of our taxes for the smart grid upgrade as people that are grid connected!
>
> READ THESE CAREFULLY:
>
> Smart grid wikipedia-
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid
>
> Will anyone pay for the smart grid ?
>
>
http://news.cnet.com/Will-anyone-pay-for-the-smart-power-grid/2100-11392_3-61840\
46.html
>
> Is the smart grid vulnerable to hackers ?
>
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,511648,00.html
>
> Smart grid news-
>
> http://www.buildings.com/ArticleDetails/tabid/3321/ArticleID/5821/Default.aspx
>
> Smart grid to be in 80% of states-
>
>
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/smart-grid-projects-in-80-percent-of-us-\
states,1031934.shtml
>
> 23 advanced control systems for smart grid-
>
> http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS240429+05-Nov-2009+PRN20091105
>
> Smart grid is being bungled-
>
> http://www.smartgridnews.com/artman/publish/jessbers/
>
> LaMar Utah USA
> >

LOL
My home was featured in an issue of American Bungalow, as an example of a early
cross between European Victorian and American Bungalow design.
http://www.americanbungalow.com/pdf/AB%20Ad%20Kit%202009.pdf
The very attractive house was designed by a woman. A well known Dutch artist at
the turn of the century who was married to the Federal Circuit judge for this
district. The house is so old, it has a name, it's called El Nido.
It sits high on a ridge overlooking the Tennessee River Valley and it was very
well constructed by true crafstman. It's built out of all quarter sawn oak. It
has 6 foot gables/porches all around the house which prevent summer heat gain
but allow plenty of winter light into the house. It's covered in Cedar shakes,
and painted dark green to blend into the hill side. When I had it reshaked, I
had insulation blown into the walls (8" thick walls, with lathe and plaster, the
house is so dense that if you can't see the person, you really can't talk to
them).
I'm the 8th family to occupy it, so in essense it's quite a REUSABLE structure
and will easily be here a hundred years after your shack has been torn down for
being an EYE SORE.

If the price of PV continues to go down I'll eventually put in PV panels over
the top screened in porch, since it has a flat roof and the panels can be
oriented to the South, and use the power they provide to supplant grid based
electricity.

Arthur

--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, "solarman" <lamar5292@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Now how many people would want to visit your home and ask for plans Ard ?
>

Wrong again Lamar.

You stated:

"Still going on protecting your precious grid power ARD ?
You better do some real investigating and research as over 80% of US power comes
from dirty coal generators"


So you said "US POWER", not ELECTRICAL power.

But it hardly matters since you were wrong in either case.

Only 50% of our Electrical power comes from coal.

Only 23% of our total power comes from coal.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epaxlfilees1.pdf

Oh, and there is no movement off the grid.

The VAST majority of new homes are grid connected.

Arthur


--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, "solarman" <lamar5292@...> wrote:
>
> Ard, you need to start actually reading posts before you argue that people are
wrong!
>
> I stated that over 80% of grid electricity comes from dirty coal power plants
and you just supplied the data that proves it.
>
> Grid power does not come from oil. You are giving national energy use profiles
and not data for grid electricity. Don't try to confuse people by using
incorrect data for non grid power as support (thats called lying).
>
> I have never said there will not be a grid but the grid of the future is not
what you have now and it going to cost YOU as a grid owner to pay for the
changes that are coming!
>
> Read these articles and then tell me you will have cheap grid electricity in
the future. Smart people are getting off the grid before the rates skyrocket and
grid homes are forced to use less power or pay higher rates.
>

Not only is Arthur wrong but he has already admitted to being a software writer
and is just using this post to promote a solar calculator program he wrote.

How many people want a solar calculator program from a guy that doesn't use
solar, has never lived off grid and thinks and lives like this:


  "One can live like I do in a 100 year old home built by craftsman out of solid
oak, with 5 fireplaces, two staircases (one with an electric chair for the
elderly), 4 bedrooms (Master with bath and a nursery that is used as my office),
living room, dining room, foyer, parlor, 3 1/2 bathrooms, laundry, a 14x14 ft
kitchen with a butler's pantry, two ovens and an indoor grill, a full basement,
a two car garage, a glassed in sunroom, a 2nd level screened porch, and a large
open porch on the front of the house for hanging out and talking to the
neighbors as they walk by."

This is a prime example of the thinking and lifestyle that has caused the US to
have energy and pollution problems and it is people like this that want to work
against alternative energy and more efficient homes because they just don't want
to change and can't stand anyone that suggests they do.

When the smart grid is put into effect people like this will be penalized with
higher rates for electricity. All smart grid homes will be monitored and people
using more during peak hours will be charged more and that is how it should be
as it is wasteful people like this that create the need for more dirty coal
electricity, create more pollution, and then want all tax payers to fix the
problem.

Homes like this are a thing of the past and smaller more efficient homes with
alternative energy are the future- bury the dinosaurs!

LaMar Utah USA
www.simplesolarhomesteading.com
www.homesteadernews.com



--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, OffGridSolar@... wrote:
>
> Arthur, No you are wrong. More and more people, companies and even
> governments are going off grid. The logic is simple. Pay now or pay the rest
of
> your life. I know it is hard for most to understand off grid. I also know off
> grid in the past was for a need where the grid did not exist. Now things
> are  changing. More and more people are fed up with the grid. Now just think
> about  that, look around off grid is coming fast and expanding. Why? Lamar is
> not the  only one talking about going off grid. You would be surprised as
> to how many off  grid applications that are installed today. Please don't
> think that we must have  the grid to live. If you feel that going off grid is
> wrong or something I would  like to know why you don't understand. Our lives
> are not based around the grid.  The grid is a choice now. Years ago we were
> dependent upon the grid for  everything.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

A project to develop a new all-electric urban car, that will be affordable for
many consumers when it reaches market and manufactured using an innovative and
sustainable production process has been announced in the UK. It comes at a time
when many companies are announcing development programs for electric or zero
emission vehicles , hybrids and plug-in hybrids but how these vehicles are made
may be as important to the environment as the fuel they do or don't use.

http://www.greencarmagazine.net/2009/11/how-green-are-zero-emission-vehicles/

We love windmills and there's no denying it - they definitely have a certain
appeal. They creaked noisily around in their charmingly inefficient way and did
an amazing thing.  They harnessed the power of the wind to facilitate activities
like the baking of bread.

Modern wind turbines are beautiful things. Within their graceful structures they
prove to be masterworks of form and function.  They whirl with a phenomenal
level of efficiency so as to prevent us from frying the planet. And the great
news is that the wind cannot be over farmed.  What's not to like?

At the end of the day we can note that all of our most notable sources of energy
are generated via the heavens and the earth. The nuclear fusion of small atom
allows energy to shine down on our planet, the nuclear fission of large atoms
continues to allow heat to rise up from below while gravitational attraction
between the moon and the Earth allows both objects to continue to spin around in
their merry way. There's just one problem. Nuclear fuels are a finite resource
and this begs the question as to what will happen when this fuel is gone. How
might future generations regard our generation once we've completed not only the
glazing of the atmosphere but also the stripping of the most valuable resources
that our planet has to offer.

The word atmosphere means sphere of water.  Perhaps the description is apt.  A
heated atmosphere may, depending on the weather, hold more water than a cold
atmosphere.  A heated earth could, onoccasion, turn into a form of steam room
while, on later occasions, it would become a shower.  Floods may be devastating
.  Winds may be high.  Future generations may want to build wind turbines but
they may have difficulties in ensuring their survival.

It is possible that future generations will look back at our "modern" wind
turbines and view them amongst the most beautiful things that man has ever
produced. We look back on old styled windmills with nostalgia as we give respect
to the great efforts that our ancestors made just to feed themselves. Future
generations will look at our wind turbines with nostalgia knowing that the
turbines were built to help secure their future.

Wind turbines need to be built but, more than that, they need to be successfully
integrated into the power networks of our planet.  The problem with wind
turbines is that they only work when the wind blows. So what can we do?  The
best option would be to institute a tiered pricing structure for electricity and
pass any necessary legislation so that our very high powered industries might
only operate at times when green energy is available.  If we had
cheaperelectricity on windy days then these would be the days on which people
would stay in to do the washing and to use their power tools.  We could also
have an industry that was based on a greener form of revolution.

more at Attempts at Survival
http://www.attempts.org.uk
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=149310585856

Now in every major supermarket in UK has been installed a network of
electric car recharging points outside the stores.So that consumers can
recharge their electric car while shopping. Read more at
http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
<http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You anti-grid guys really need to get a grip on reality.

The grid isn't ever going away.

To put it in perspective, our energy use, since 1980 has gone up ~30% (primarily
due to population growth), but our electricity use has gone up ~60%. The FACT is
that more and more of our total energy is being delivered to homes and
businesses as electricity via the GRID.

This is because of two factors: The move to the Cities (ALL 20th century
population growth was in the urban areas)

http://www.usgcrp.gov/usgcrp/Library/nationalassessment/images/UrbanRural-o.jpg

And population growth:

http://www.randcompare.org/current/dimension/images/hct_spending_8_sm.gif

The grid is also the PRIMARY way that renewable energy will be delivered to
customers. Our growth in the last decade in renewable energy has been in TWO
areas: Wind and Bio-Fuels. The Wind has come from large Wind Farms and is
delivered via the GRID.

Finally, the grid is the ONLY way that we can deliver the amount of power needed
to residences to move even a small percent of our transportataion energy from
Oil to Electricity via battery powered vehicles.

And that last one is KEY.

Currently only 1% of our electricity is used for transportation and 95% of our
transportation energy comes from Oil, most of which is imported.

To switch to EVs and other battery assisted vehicles like the Volt will require
the ability to almost double the amount of power that is delivered to private
residences over the grid. Distributed PV won't play a role in this because the
primary time period for charging these cars will be overnight.

So WHY the smart grid?

Well one of the main drivers for the cost of grid based electricity is the sharp
daily and seasonal peaks that the electric power companies have to provide for.
To provide these peaks a lot of very expensive standby generation equipment has
to be held as "spinning reserves".

http://www.calseia.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/hourly-electricity-demand.jpg

The Smart Grid will allow the power company to charge users based on Time of Day
of use, and the higher prices during peak periods will, via behavior changes
from users, move more of this power use OFF PEAK (like charging your EV).

The net result will be much better utilization of the grid and the existing
infrastructure, and so while the amount of electricity delivered over the grid
will go up by quite a bit, the AVERAGE cost per kWh will stay about the same or
possibly go down a bit.

Which is what has been the case for the last 40 years.

In fact the average retail price of electricity, adjusted for inflation, was
lower in 1999 than it was in 1960.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/page/fact_sheets/retailfig1.gif

So why is the govt involved in this?

Simple, it takes about $120 per meter to switch to a smart meter, but you can't
switch to TOD usage until all users are swithed. If consumers had to pay
directly for the new meter, that would take a long time. This way simply
shortens the time frame and since it is paid for by our taxes, the charge is
PROGRESSIVE (make more, pay more), vs a direct charge on the electric bill which
would be REGRESSIVE (make less pay same as make more).

Arthur


--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, OffGridSolar@... wrote:
>
> What is happening with the funding for the smart grid is not the solution
> that we need. First of all as you stated the electric utility companies are
> receiving these funds to spend on up grading their grids. How stupid is
> that!  Lets look at this closer. The feds are giving electric utility
companies
> money  to fix the grid. How does that affect the utility companies
> customers? Here is  what is happening. The electric utility companies are
still
> raising the prices  of a KW. Do we benefit? No; we will pay more for electric
> power. The only one  that benefits are the electric utility companies. Simple.
> So again we as  tax payers are paying twice for electric power. One in
> taxes for upgrading the  grid. Second for electric power.

Ard, you need to start actually reading posts before you argue that people are
wrong!

I stated that over 80% of grid electricity comes from dirty coal power plants
and you just supplied the data that proves it.

Grid power does not come from oil. You are giving national energy use profiles
and not data for grid electricity. Don't try to confuse people by using
incorrect data for non grid power as support (thats called lying).

I have never said there will not be a grid but the grid of the future is not
what you have now and it going to cost YOU as a grid owner to pay for the
changes that are coming!

Read these articles and then tell me you will have cheap grid electricity in the
future. Smart people are getting off the grid before the rates skyrocket and
grid homes are forced to use less power or pay higher rates.

READ THESE CAREFULLY:

Smart grid wikipedia-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid

Will anyone pay for the smart grid ?

http://news.cnet.com/Will-anyone-pay-for-the-smart-power-grid/2100-11392_3-61840\
46.html

Is the smart grid vulnerable to hackers ?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,511648,00.html

Smart grid news-

http://www.buildings.com/ArticleDetails/tabid/3321/ArticleID/5821/Default.aspx

Smart grid to be in 80% of states-

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/smart-grid-projects-in-80-percent-of-us-\
states,1031934.shtml

23 advanced control systems for smart grid-

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS240429+05-Nov-2009+PRN20091105

Smart grid is being bungled-

http://www.smartgridnews.com/artman/publish/jessbers/

LaMar Utah USA
www.simplesolarhomesteading.com

http://www.instructables.com/id/Method-for-designing-reflectors-for-unattended-s\
ol/
It is by no means a finished project but it might be good enough to get the idea
across to some people.  At about 5 minutes in this video,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSMzKg6fwJ8
the guy shows something similar to (but a lot more more complicated than and
more overbuilt than) what I have in mind.
Brian

Arthur, No you are wrong. More and more people, companies and even
governments are going off grid. The logic is simple. Pay now or pay the rest of
your life. I know it is hard for most to understand off grid. I also know off
grid in the past was for a need where the grid did not exist. Now things
are  changing. More and more people are fed up with the grid. Now just think
about  that, look around off grid is coming fast and expanding. Why? Lamar is
not the  only one talking about going off grid. You would be surprised as
to how many off  grid applications that are installed today. Please don't
think that we must have  the grid to live. If you feel that going off grid is
wrong or something I would  like to know why you don't understand. Our lives
are not based around the grid.  The grid is a choice now. Years ago we were
dependent upon the grid for  everything.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Today, escalating prices are draining family budgets. The cost of energy is
soaring and everything from heating your home to driving to work is siphoning
away your hard earned money. Though there is little that you can do about the
rising cost of energy, there are some ways you can save energy, and save money
at the same time.
One of the ways to save energy is to cut down on the amount of fuel that you
consume. Think fuel efficiency when you purchase a new car. Stay away from the
SUVs and consider buying an automobile that uses less fuel.
You can also save energy when doing your laundry, if you wash your clothes in
cold water with cold-water detergents, and then hang them outside to dry. Most
of the energy used to do laundry is in heating the water and drying the clothes,
so with these two steps you will be saving a lot of energy, and money.
Consider changing the way you cook meals. If you use your microwave and
crock-pot to cook many of your meals, you will be saving a lot of energy. These
appliances use far less energy that your stove and oven.
Of course you may have heard that you can save energy if you turn your air
conditioner up in the summer and heat down in the winter. This is a good way to
save energy as you can cut your heating and cooling bill by as much as 20
percent. It is also a good idea to keep your shades down in the summer to help
keep your house cool, and at night turn off the air conditioner and open the
windows.
Turn your water heater down to the lowest setting. In most cases keeping your
water heater set low will still provide you with water that is hot enough for
what you need, and you will be saving energy too.
Weatherize your home to save energy. Seal your home up with weather stripping
and caulk, and of course you will not want to overlook adding more insulation. A
home that is weatherized will use far less energy, and will save you money.
There is no way to control the cost of energy, but you do have some control on
how much money you spend on energy. All you have to do is take control and save
energy.

Create Electricity At Home: http://www.homeenergymi.tk/

Some battery over flow is normal especially after refilling cells.

Batteries need monitoring and refilling. I check mine at least once a month and
refill as needed.

If your system is remote and left hooked up to the panels you should check and
refill batteries before you leave the system and check as soon as you return.

Or disconnect the system after the batteries are full and just recharge them
when you need them.

I have never yet found a power controller that will keep batteries completely
regulated and not have some fluid loss and that just comes with off-grid
systems.

Try to not overfill cells and use only distilled water. If you mess with the
acid levels you can damage or reduce the efficiency.

Its normal to see a little reduction in reserve capacity of a battery after
refilling especially if you let the batteries get too low. It will usually
equalize in a day or two and come back up.

I have seen people refill low batteries and because the reserve went down they
thought the batteries were bad and replaced them and if they just waited for the
batteries to equalize they were still fine.

LaMar Utah USA
www.simplesolarhomesteading.com

--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, OffGridSolar@... wrote:
>
> If batteries bubble over you are cooking the batteries. This is a menu for
> failure. Batteries and solar panels are like a chain. The weakest like can
> cause  a failure. This is why it is important to fully test the batteries
> use for off  grid applications.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Ard you are a prime example of what is wrong with this country!

People that want to live in inefficient homes and use more power than needed and
expect all tax payers to pay for your luxuries!

As for my cabin you are wrong as people all over the world are interested in
smaller self sufficient housing as is attested to by the 22,000 visitors to my
solar cabin videos in one month and over 50,000 visitors to my websites by
people looking for plans and ideas.

http://www.youtube.com/user/solarcabin

Now how many people would want to visit your home and ask for plans Ard ?

Read these articles and then tell me you will have cheap grid electricity in the
future. Smart people are getting off the grid before the rates skyrocket and
grid homes are forced to use less power or pay higher rates.

What is worse is people like me that are not grid connected are paying as much
out of our taxes for the smart grid upgrade as people that are grid connected!

READ THESE CAREFULLY:

Smart grid wikipedia-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid

Will anyone pay for the smart grid ?

http://news.cnet.com/Will-anyone-pay-for-the-smart-power-grid/2100-11392_3-61840\
46.html

Is the smart grid vulnerable to hackers ?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,511648,00.html

Smart grid news-

http://www.buildings.com/ArticleDetails/tabid/3321/ArticleID/5821/Default.aspx

Smart grid to be in 80% of states-

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/smart-grid-projects-in-80-percent-of-us-\
states,1031934.shtml

23 advanced control systems for smart grid-

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS240429+05-Nov-2009+PRN20091105

Smart grid is being bungled-

http://www.smartgridnews.com/artman/publish/jessbers/

LaMar Utah USA
www.simplesolarhomesteading.com

Ahrrg! I hope that the backside is insulated to prevent expensive energy loss to
the outside of the building.

Frank

________________________________
From: renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of ferrand
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 3:20 PM
To: generalnewssnippets@...; localsustuk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: {Spam? 3} [renewable-energy] [Generalnewssnippets] Carbon Nanotubes -
Wallpaper Heating



The possibility now exists for "hot wallpaper" as a means of room
heating from a renewable energy electricity supply
see
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:pJljhB83_ZIJ:www.physorg.com/pdf6717395\
2.pdf+wallpaper+heating&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgZjZd34yFjPkFKh-E8myybecd\
bknbtegSAfN2jJaYqE8s2ZND8vrbe6z-lGzsNE9pGByZw0zVO0sT619IeN_ei0sROFYRcBTmjLWoMjPS\
ZsDKIiNi82-HoDWpl35CiSAXSiRox&sig=AFQjCNG8DLPhNYiKN3MyX1EDmEGAgFH-CQ
regards
Ferrand

_______________________________________________
Generalnewssnippets mailing list
Generalnewssnippets@...<mailto:Generalnewssnippets%40claverton-\
energy.com>
http://claverton-energy.com/mailman/listinfo/generalnewssnippets_claverton-energ\
y.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ard you need to educate yourself as all grid home owners do to the smart grid
technology you are going to have to pay for in higher utility rates!

Read these articles and then tell me you will have cheap grid electricity in the
future. Smart people are getting off the grid before the rates skyrocket and
grid homes are forced to use less power or pay higher rates.

What is worse is people like me that are not grid connected are paying as much
out of our taxes for the smart grid upgrade as people that are grid connected!

READ THESE CAREFULLY:

Smart grid wikipedia-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid

Will anyone pay for the smart grid ?

http://news.cnet.com/Will-anyone-pay-for-the-smart-power-grid/2100-11392_3-61840\
46.html

Is the smart grid vulnerable to hackers ?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,511648,00.html

Smart grid news-

http://www.buildings.com/ArticleDetails/tabid/3321/ArticleID/5821/Default.aspx

Smart grid to be in 80% of states-

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/smart-grid-projects-in-80-percent-of-us-\
states,1031934.shtml

23 advanced control systems for smart grid-

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS240429+05-Nov-2009+PRN20091105

Smart grid is being bungled-

http://www.smartgridnews.com/artman/publish/jessbers/

LaMar Utah USA
www.simplesolarhomesteading.com

A new engine design is being put forward by a New Zealand firm. They
state that "The Pivotal engine is the ideal CNG/hydrogen internal
combustion engine design" a further quote from them is :- "The Pivotal
engine is a new mechanical means of harnessing the power from combustion
fuels.  It is an internal combustion engine (ICE) that overcomes
inherent limitations of the conventional device.  It delivers the
potential for a significant advantage in power density and thermal
efficiency on a wide range of fuels.  With full thermal control of the
combustion chamber environment it is a clear choice for hydrogen and
will become the ubiquitous hydrogen engine of the future.  The Pivotal
engine will successfully adapt to a wide range of alternative fuels and
is particularly suited to gaseous fuel blends."
see www.pivotalengine.com
regards
Ferrand

Read these articles and then tell me you will have cheap grid electricity in the
future. Smart people are getting off the grid before the rates skyrocket and
grid homes are forced to use less power or pay higher rates.

What is worse is people like me that are not grid connected are paying as much
out of our taxes for the smart grid upgrade as people that are grid connected!

READ THESE CAREFULLY:

Smart grid wikipedia-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid

Will anyone pay for the smart grid ?

http://news.cnet.com/Will-anyone-pay-for-the-smart-power-grid/2100-11392_3-61840\
46.html

Is the smart grid vulnerable to hackers ?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,511648,00.html

Smart grid news-

http://www.buildings.com/ArticleDetails/tabid/3321/ArticleID/5821/Default.aspx

Smart grid to be in 80% of states-

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/smart-grid-projects-in-80-percent-of-us-\
states,1031934.shtml

23 advanced control systems for smart grid-

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS240429+05-Nov-2009+PRN20091105

Smart grid is being bungled-

http://www.smartgridnews.com/artman/publish/jessbers/

LaMar Utah USA
www.simplesolarhomesteading.com

You can live well and still be off the grid.



   _____

From: renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ardoucette
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 12:55 PM
To: renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [renewable-energy] Re: The true cost of grid v. solar/wind power




Lamar,

I'm not pushing ANYTHING on ANYONE and you know it.

Nor am I interfering with the discussion.

I am injecting some sanity into your post about the true cost of grid v
solar power, since I created a solar calculator that lets people find out if
solar works for their unique situation.

As to bad decision of lifestyle.

I've seen your 14x14 shack and I wouldn't change with you for anything.

The fact is, people can live in a 14x14 ft unpainted shack where the friggin
doors can't even open inward because that would take up too much space, and
you have to climb a ladder to get to the 'loft' and have to start an
electric generator to run the microwave....

OR

One can live like I do in a 100 year old home built by craftsman out of
solid oak, with 5 fireplaces, two staircases (one with an electric chair for
the elderly), 4 bedrooms (Master with bath and a nursery that is used as my
office), living room, dining room, foyer, parlor, 3 1/2 bathrooms, laundry,
a 14x14 ft kitchen with a butler's pantry, two ovens and an indoor grill, a
full basement, a two car garage, a glassed in sunroom, a 2nd level screened
porch, and a large open porch on the front of the house for hanging out and
talking to the neighbors as they walk by.

But

I also think that there are a number of people who live off grid, but don't
live in a shack. Some of the posts on this and other forums show how one can
live off grid in a decent home, with the typical middle class or better
ammenities.

Arthur

--- In renewable-energy@ <mailto:renewable-energy%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "solarman" <lamar5292@...> wrote:
>
> BUT THAT'S YOUR CHOICE ARD!
>
> You made your bed now lay in it and stop pushing your bad decision of
lifestyle on everyone else.
>
> That is the whole point of this post is to give people choices and all you
have done is bitch that you can't do it!
>
> So let those who can discuss it without your interference please!!!
>
> LaMar Utah USA
> www.simplesolarhomesteading.com
>
> --- In renewable-energy@ <mailto:renewable-energy%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "ardoucette" <adoucette@> wrote:
> >
> > Absolutely.
> >
> > And clearly using PV for off grid generation of electricity offers a
segment of the population the ability to live where otherwise it might not
be practical.
> >
> > But I live in a city.
> >
> > My 100+ year old house has been hooked to the grid since it was built.
> >
> > I love my house and moving is not something I care to do.
> >
> > The only issue for me is: Can I generate electricity for less than it
costs me to buy it from the local power company?
> >
> > Well the simple answer to that is: Not at the present time.
> >
> > There are several reasons for that:
> >
> > One, I'm not in an overly "sun friendly location", Of course if I lived,
say in the SW of the US, it would be different, but I don't.
> >
> > Two, My electrical company provides electricity at rates quite a bit
below the National Average. I pay about 7c per kWh, and that's an all in
rate.
> >
> > Three, My electrical service is very reliable, and I've never had a long
outage. i.e. I've never once had to throw out the contents of the fridge.
> >
> > Of course, changes in costs over time may change this, and that's why I
created the PV - Solar Sizing calculator (see files for various versions)
which allows me to easily plug in different values, cost of electricity,
cost of panels, tax rebates etc as they change, and reevaluate as things
change.
> >
> > So, I'd love for you to "prove ... that off grid is practical and cost
effective".
> >
> > You could start by evalutaing my PV Solar Calculators and tell me where
they are wrong.
> >
> >
> > Arthur
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In renewable-energy@ <mailto:renewable-energy%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, OffGridSolar@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Arthur, Do you not know of any off grid systems in use today? Would
you
> > > like to see photos of off grid applications. These off grid systems
have been
> > > in use for many years. If you do it right off grid is not that hard to
make
> > > happen. Would you like me to send you photos of installations using
solar
> > > PV in off grid locations. Forget fuel, it is truly not used in any of
these
> > > applications. Lamar did not invest enough in solar panels. This is the

> > > problem. I can make any existing home large or small off grid. Here is
my
> > > goal. If I prove to you and everyone that going off grid is the best
solution
> > > would you stop the negative e-mails and arguments. If I prove to you
without
> > > a reasonable doubt that off grid is practical and cost effective. The
next
> > > step is for me to prove it. I will do this.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lamar,
You are wrong on so many levels.

A) The VAST majority of the housing and commercial buildings in this country
depend on the grid. It won't EVER go away.

B) We are spending very large sums of money to improve the grid.
Most recently the Govt announced a $3.4 billion investment for energy grid
modernization, the largest single investment of its kind in the country's
history, that will be matched by $4.7 billion from private companies.

C) "Green Power" is and will continue to be delivered to consumers primarily
through the grid.

D) Coal accounts for only 23% of our power in the US, and only 50% of our
Electricity.  The FACT is we get more power from Natural Gas and Propane than we
do from Coal.

E) Cap and Trade will not significantly impact existing coal power plants. While
the cost of the electricity they produce will go up slightly, the cost of
building replacements for them is so high, that the electricity they generate
will STILL be cheaper than building new power plants.

F) The single biggest impact of passing a Cap and Trade bill on CO2 emissions
will be to make the building of Nuclear Power plants more reasonable.

G) My power bills are actually quite reasonable. I run a very comfortable house
for 4 people, that is over 20 times the size of your shack, for a cost of about
$8 per day, and I earn that much in just 7 minutes of working (after tax).

Arthur

--- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, "solarman" <lamar5292@...> wrote:
>
> Still going on protecting your precious grid power ARD ?
>
> You better do some real investigating and research as over 80% of US power
comes from dirty coal generators and they are only talking about switching
because of the cap and trade proposal.
>
> You are just again trying to change argument after continually having your
posts challenged by me and everyone else.
>
> Give it up and go enjoy your grid electricity and ever increasing power bills!
>
> LaMar
> www.simplesolarhomesteading.com
>
> --- In renewable-energy@yahoogroups.com, "ardoucette" <adoucette@> wrote:
> >
> > LOL
> >
> > Lamar, this forum is sponsored by the American Wind Energy Association
(AWEA), and I can assure you, they fully expect to provide RENEWABLE energy to
homeowners via the GRID.
> >
> > In fact THIS expansion of the GRID is what they want to have happen:
> >
> >
http://peakwatch.typepad.com/./photos/uncategorized/2008/07/23/wind_transmisson_\
plan.jpg
> >
> > So CLEARLY, your equating GRID with "Dirty coal powered companies" is wrong.
When this country ramps up its generation of renewable energy, which it surely
will, it will be delivered to the vast majority of us through the existing grid.
> >
> > As to the "Dirty coal" that you keep going on about, that has already
started to change (not that there aren't still some left) but the new plants
that are being prototyped now don't emit any soot or CO2, so again, you are just
being SHORT SIGHTED.
> >
> >
http://www.powermag.com/POWERnews/Pleasant-Prairie-Chilled-Ammonia-Pilot-Shows-9\
0-percent-Carbon-Capture-Companies-Say_2223.html
> >
> > Why is this important?
> >
> > Well for starters we get 40% of our electricity in the US from Coal and this
massive source of our energy can't be replaced any time soon, so like it or not,
coal will remain a major source of our energy future for a LONG time to come.
> >
> > What we need to do (and are in fact doing) is to update the existing plants
as they come up for renovation and insure that all new plants utitilize "clean
coal" technology. (in essense they pulverize the coal, heat it with steam to
make methane gas, and then burn the gas. Thus no soot and significantly lower
SOx emissions. If you combine the clean coal technology with the Chilled Ammonia
absorbtion system, you get only 10% of the CO2 as well.
> >
> > Anyone who thinks America's energy won't come from ALL available sources in
the future just has no friggin idea how much energy this country uses.
> >
> > In case you wonder:
> >
> > In 2008 we used ~100 Quadrillion BTUs of energy.
> >
> > Oil was 37%
> > Nat Gas and Propane was 24%
> > Coal was 23%
> > Nuclear was 9%
> > Renewable was 7%
> >
> > Of the 7% that was Renewable:
> >
> > Hydro was 2.5%
> > Wood was 2.0%
> > Biofuels was 1.4%
> > Wind was 0.5%
> > Waste was 0.4%
> > GeoThermal was 0.4%
> > Solar/PV was 0.1% with most of that coming from Solar Thermal, not Solar PV.
> >
> > Sourec EIA Annual Energy Review 2008
> >
> > http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec10_2.pdf
> >
> > Arthur
> >
>