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Seeking feedback on the Blinksale API   Message List  
Reply Message #6594 of 18560 |
Re: [rest-discuss] Seeking feedback on the Blinksale API

On Oct 1, 2006, at 4:14 AM, Nic James Ferrier wrote:
> Jan Algermissen <jalgermissen@...> writes:
>
> > Hmm...no, Mark is completely right about that. Message self-
> > descriptiveness is an
> > architectural constraint of REST and thus, if your messages are not
> > self-descriptive
> > (aka standardized all the way through) your system does not comply
> > with REST.
>
> I strongly disagree with this assertion. I don't have a link to Mark's
> article where he makes a claim that "self-descriptive" means
> "standardized" so I can't really refute it. But I do refute the
> assertion.

Well, so do I. Self-descriptive means that the type is registered and
the registry points to a specification and the specification explains
how to process the data according to its intent. The specification does
not need to be a standard (a.k.a., a measure that everyone agrees to).
It would help, but most useful standards are defined through use.
Whoever starts sending the data first should define the specification
according to what is being sent, not try to get everyone to agree first.

My question about the API was one of practicality. Given a space that
has been extensively explored, why do people choose to abandon the
available standards? And the answer was the one I was expecting: the
standards are too complex and it seemed better to start with something
simple that is a better fit for the immediate need. There is absolutely
nothing wrong with that choice when it is made with eyes wide open.
You never know what will become the next HTML.

....Roy



Sun Oct 1, 2006 10:06 pm

roy_fielding
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Message #6594 of 18560 |
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... Well, standard and standardised are two different words. REST constrains content types to be standard. Approximately, understood by everyone who would want...
Benjamin Carlyle
fuzzybsc Offline Send Email
Oct 1, 2006
9:56 pm

... Well, so do I. Self-descriptive means that the type is registered and the registry points to a specification and the specification explains how to process...
Roy T. Fielding
roy_fielding Offline Send Email
Oct 1, 2006
10:10 pm

... Thanks for this clarification. One point about this is that you can use a registered type such as application/xml but that doesn't really specify anything...
Nic James Ferrier
nferrier_tap... Offline Send Email
Oct 1, 2006
10:49 pm

... Right, I would not use "application/xml" for anything useful. The argument that people can look inside at the root element died a long time ago (shortly...
Roy T. Fielding
roy_fielding Offline Send Email
Oct 1, 2006
11:43 pm

... Roy: I would very much like you to elaborate on this comment! Clearly there's a difference between a header declaring the type of stuff being transferred...
Duncan Cragg
duncan_b_cragg Offline Send Email
Oct 3, 2006
12:33 am

... No. What is the content difference between an archived invoice and an invoice that I expect you to pay right now? There shouldn't be any. The difference...
Roy T. Fielding
roy_fielding Offline Send Email
Oct 3, 2006
2:48 am

... Just to make sure I understand, you advocate a separate media type for an invoice that the sender intends to be submitted for payment vs one that is...
Bob Haugen
bob.haugen@... Send Email
Oct 3, 2006
1:22 pm

... It is just an example. Think of it this way: your browser receives two messages, one says it is application/quicken and the other says it is...
Roy T. Fielding
roy_fielding Offline Send Email
Oct 3, 2006
6:37 pm

... Data doesn't have intent. Producers may have intent and consumers may have intent, but those are by no means the same thing. There's certainly no intent in...
Elliotte Harold
elharo@... Send Email
Oct 2, 2006
11:22 am

... I meant the sender's intent, of course. I explained it more concretely for the more concrete subject of the web architecture: ...
Roy T. Fielding
roy_fielding Offline Send Email
Oct 2, 2006
11:02 pm

... Ok, which one is it? 8-) "REST enables intermediate processing by constraining messages to be self-descriptive: interaction is stateless between requests,...
Mark Baker
gonga_thrash Online Now Send Email
Oct 2, 2006
3:42 pm

So what does "standard" mean again? Can you be specific about which set of bureaucrats I have to tithe to before my messages can be self-descriptive?...
Lucas Gonze
lucas_gonze Offline Send Email
Oct 2, 2006
4:17 pm

... Both. That is just a summary. The real constraint you are looking for is under 5.2.1: REST provides a hybrid of all three options by focusing on a shared...
Roy T. Fielding
roy_fielding Offline Send Email
Oct 2, 2006
10:11 pm

... In the interview Mark does differentiate between a completely open system (where messages types *must* be standardized) and intra- organisational scenarios...
Jan Algermissen
algermissen1971 Offline Send Email
Oct 1, 2006
8:54 am

Looks really good, but two things stand out as unRESTful to me. The first is the documentation for the URI structure, e.g. ...
Mark Baker
gonga_thrash Online Now Send Email
Sep 26, 2006
9:32 pm

... That didn't come out right. Even if you register a new media type, messages won't be self-descriptive until the format is standardized. And +1 to Roy on...
Mark Baker
gonga_thrash Online Now Send Email
Sep 26, 2006
9:50 pm

... So, Mark, does that mean you have given up on RDF Forms? http://www.markbaker.ca/2003/05/RDF-Forms/ And is a message sufficiently self-descriptive if it...
Bob Haugen
bob.haugen@... Send Email
Oct 1, 2006
3:35 pm

... Nope! That reuses RDF/XML, which has a standard media type (application/rdf+xml). And by Roy's most recent definition, it is self-descriptive because you...
Mark Baker
gonga_thrash Online Now Send Email
Oct 2, 2006
4:14 pm

... Why not? What diff does it make if the form came from the form processing resource or was (for example) a standard invoice form, as long as both client...
Bob Haugen
bob.haugen@... Send Email
Oct 2, 2006
4:33 pm

... The trouble is the HEAD of the resource will tell you nothing. And what if you're trying to do content-neg across 2 different documents: - a BPEL invoice...
Nic James Ferrier
nferrier_tap... Offline Send Email
Oct 2, 2006
10:53 pm
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