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Sun proposes to apply Web service standardization principles to REST   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #7830 of 14020 |
It had to happen sooner or later. The big boys are waking up and
discovering REST, and naturally they want to protect all us little
developers from worrying our pretty little heads about nasty things like
HTTP and XML by creating easy-to-use REST frameworks:

JSR-311 Java API for RESTful Web Services
http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=311

Remember, these are the same jokers who gave us servlets and the
URLConnection class as well as gems like JAX-RPC and JAX-WS. They still
seem to believe that these are actually good specs, and they are
proposing to tunnel REST services through JAX-WS (Java API for XML Web
Services) endpoints.

They also seem to believe that "building RESTful Web services using the
Java Platform is significantly more complex than building SOAP-based
services". I don't know that this is false, but if it's true it's only
because Sun's HTTP API were designed by architecture astronauts who
didn't actually understand HTTP. This proposal does not seem to be
addressing the need for a decent HTTP API on either the client or server
side that actually follows RESTful principles instead of fighting
against them.

To give you an idea of the background we're dealing with here, one of
the two people who wrote the proposal "represents Sun on the W3C XML
Protocol and W3C WS-Addressing working groups where he is co-editor of
the SOAP 1.2 and WS-Addressing 1.0 specifications. Marc was
co-specification lead for JAX-WS 2.0 (the Java API for Web Services)
developed at the JCP and has also served as Sun's technical lead and
alternate board member at the Web Services Interoperability Organization
(WS-I)."

The other submitter seems to be a primary instigator of the Fast Infoset
effort to hide XML in binary goop.

This is like asking Karl Rove and Dick Cheney to write the Democratic
Party platform.

Do we really want to trust these folks to define the official Java spec
for REST? Please read the JSR, and send comments to jsr-311-comments@...

I hope we can derail this completely, but we probably can't. If not, are
there any JSR members here who might join the working group and bring
some sanity and actual REST experience to the development of the
eventual specification? If we can't stop it, maybe we can at least limit
the damage.


--
Elliotte Rusty Harold elharo@...
Java I/O 2nd Edition Just Published!
http://www.cafeaulait.org/books/javaio2/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596527500/ref=nosim/cafeaulaitA/



Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:56 pm

elharo@...
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Message #7830 of 14020 |
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It had to happen sooner or later. The big boys are waking up and discovering REST, and naturally they want to protect all us little developers from worrying...
Elliotte Harold
elharo@...
Send Email
Feb 14, 2007
2:57 pm

I was about to write something similar... In the first place I don't understand why this needs to be a JSR. I understand JSR as a means to standardize...
Ernst, Matthias
mernst500
Offline Send Email
Feb 14, 2007
3:33 pm

Elliotte, It seems to me approaching the effort with this attitude is not going to lead to a productive debate :-) RESTlet author Jérôme Louvel is also a...
Stefan Tilkov
stilkov
Offline Send Email
Feb 14, 2007
3:43 pm

Hi Elliotte, Let me look at this effort on a more constructively light. You forgot to mention that Marc Hadley is also the author of WADL which is the best ...
Jerome Louvel
jerome.louvel
Offline Send Email
Feb 14, 2007
3:44 pm

... What would one have to do to join the eg? cheers Bill...
Bill de hOra
bdehora
Offline Send Email
Feb 14, 2007
3:59 pm

Hi Bill, You can apply for an Expert Group Nomination at: http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/egnom?id=311 Thanks, Jerome...
Jérôme Louvel
jerome.louvel
Offline Send Email
Feb 14, 2007
4:07 pm

... Thanks Jérôme. I've just submitted a nomination request. cheers Bill...
Bill de hOra
bdehora
Offline Send Email
Feb 14, 2007
6:29 pm

... I just did the same. Stefan -- Stefan Tilkov, http://www.innoq.com/blog/st/...
Stefan Tilkov
stilkov
Offline Send Email
Feb 14, 2007
6:40 pm

Does anybody know how the expert groups work? Is there a public mailing list where non-expert-group-members can be heard, or does this all take place on some...
Chuck Hinson
chucking24
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Feb 14, 2007
8:48 pm

Last time I participated on one, it was all private. There's a public review period though....
Mark Baker
gonga_thrash
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Feb 14, 2007
9:05 pm

... This is starting to change. A few are operating in public like JSR 305: http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=305 Most are still private with limited public...
Elliotte Harold
elharo@...
Send Email
Feb 14, 2007
9:37 pm

... I hope that the discussion is public. I am a .NET developer, so a Java implementation is not of primary interest to me, but I would certainly be interested...
Alan Dean
alan_james_dean
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Feb 14, 2007
9:55 pm

... As did I. Pete...
Peter Lacey
pete.lacey
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Feb 14, 2007
10:46 pm

... Which Roy and I have both pointed out (in effect) is an oxymoron... ... I like Marc a lot. We worked together at Sun, and he's just a very pleasant...
Mark Baker
gonga_thrash
Offline Send Email
Feb 14, 2007
4:44 pm

... Does the Expert Group include anyone who has written such an API already? For example, Jetty has had something similar for years. Also, you are...
Robert Sayre
robertsayre2000
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Feb 15, 2007
3:29 am

... This does seem a bit negative. I'm not sure I like REST-toolkits either... but only because REST is not a protocol or a platform, it's just a style. But...
Nic James Ferrier
nferrier_tap...
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Feb 14, 2007
4:30 pm

I've exchanged emails with Marc Hadley, collected some reactions and published a news item here: http://www.infoq.com/news/2007/02/jsr-311-java-rest-api Stefan...
Stefan Tilkov
stilkov
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Feb 14, 2007
6:33 pm

... Stefan, good overview, thanks. Also gives me some hope :-) I think the JSR provides a good opportunity to discuss REST principles in a...
Jan Algermissen
algermissen1971
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Feb 15, 2007
7:53 am

I think there may be some missunderstandings about the direction of this JSR, I just posted a blog entry that aims to clarify a couple of points: ...
marc_hadley
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Feb 14, 2007
9:35 pm

Thanks, Marc. Good to get some light amidst the heat. :-) Importantly, it doesn't really seem like they (you?) are trying to "standardize REST", but merely...
Dr. Ernie Prabhakar
sandhyaprabh...
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Feb 14, 2007
9:52 pm

Marc, I already explained to Rajiv last November that I would not allow Sun to go forward with the REST name in the API. It doesn't make any sense to name one...
Roy T. Fielding
roy_fielding
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Feb 14, 2007
11:44 pm

... Roy, I think we may have gotten our wires crossed somewhere, when you discussed this with Rajiv last November you certainly didn't rule out any name with...
Marc Hadley
marc_hadley
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Feb 15, 2007
12:42 am

... o Why not just have an interface with the well known verbs on? I know Java5 makes annotations possible, but it is not clear they are always appropriate....
Steve Loughran
steve_loughran
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Feb 15, 2007
2:06 pm

Hi Steve, You raise some interesting points, detailed discussion of which really belong in the expert group once it is formed. For now I'll take a shot at some...
Marc Hadley
marc_hadley
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Feb 15, 2007
3:38 pm

... We're still waiting to hear if everyone is welcome in the expert group forum or if it will be a closed discussion. I hope it's the former, but if it's the...
Elliotte Harold
elharo@...
Send Email
Feb 15, 2007
4:10 pm

... I would suggest that a critical use case is being able to manage this from a web-based interface; e.g. like WordPress is configured. That may not be part...
Elliotte Harold
elharo@...
Send Email
Feb 15, 2007
4:15 pm

... You know, I think I trust Marc et all to come up with something worthwhile and put it in the hands of a lot of developers. What worries me most about REST...
Paul Downey
sumnerdowney
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Feb 14, 2007
9:48 pm

... I am trying to tackle exactly this issue. I certainly agree that as a general statement, REST isn't testable as it is an architectural style ... however...
Alan Dean
alan_james_dean
Offline Send Email
Feb 14, 2007
10:07 pm

... Oh! that's excellent. Just the sort of thing I was thinking of. Well done. -- Nic Ferrier http://www.tapsellferrier.co.uk for all your tapsell ferrier...
Nic James Ferrier
nferrier_tap...
Offline Send Email
Feb 14, 2007
10:29 pm
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