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Sun proposes to apply Web service standardization principles to REST   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #7837 of 14004 |
Re: [rest-discuss] Re: Sun proposes to apply Web service standardization principles to REST

On 2/14/07, Jerome Louvel <contact@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Elliotte,
>
> Let me look at this effort on a more constructively light. You forgot to
> mention that Marc Hadley is also the author of WADL which is the best
> RESTful description language available.

Which Roy and I have both pointed out (in effect) is an oxymoron...

> He may have been involved in
> other standardization efforts, but that doesn't mean he doesn't get REST
> now: I know he does.

I like Marc a lot. We worked together at Sun, and he's just a very
pleasant fellow. But I think he misunderstands important aspects of
REST and the Web, so I have some concern there.

Anyhow, rather than be critical of this effort, I've decided to submit
my application to join the EG. Java definitely needs better APIs for
the Web.

I am concerned about the request (section 2) though; it goes on and on
about how existing APIs are too "low level" and require a lot of
knowledge of HTTP, which suggests to me that they're thinking of
hiding as much of HTTP as possible; an obvious "protocol independence"
bias there which will only lead to a crappy API.

Mark.
--
Mark Baker. Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA. http://www.markbaker.ca
Coactus; Web-inspired integration strategies http://www.coactus.com



Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:42 pm

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Message #7837 of 14004 |
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... As did I. Pete...
Peter Lacey
pete.lacey
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Feb 14, 2007
10:46 pm

... Which Roy and I have both pointed out (in effect) is an oxymoron... ... I like Marc a lot. We worked together at Sun, and he's just a very pleasant...
Mark Baker
gonga_thrash
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Feb 14, 2007
4:44 pm

... Does the Expert Group include anyone who has written such an API already? For example, Jetty has had something similar for years. Also, you are...
Robert Sayre
robertsayre2000
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Feb 15, 2007
3:29 am

... This does seem a bit negative. I'm not sure I like REST-toolkits either... but only because REST is not a protocol or a platform, it's just a style. But...
Nic James Ferrier
nferrier_tap...
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Feb 14, 2007
4:30 pm

I've exchanged emails with Marc Hadley, collected some reactions and published a news item here: http://www.infoq.com/news/2007/02/jsr-311-java-rest-api Stefan...
Stefan Tilkov
stilkov
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Feb 14, 2007
6:33 pm

... Stefan, good overview, thanks. Also gives me some hope :-) I think the JSR provides a good opportunity to discuss REST principles in a...
Jan Algermissen
algermissen1971
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Feb 15, 2007
7:53 am

I think there may be some missunderstandings about the direction of this JSR, I just posted a blog entry that aims to clarify a couple of points: ...
marc_hadley
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Feb 14, 2007
9:35 pm

Thanks, Marc. Good to get some light amidst the heat. :-) Importantly, it doesn't really seem like they (you?) are trying to "standardize REST", but merely...
Dr. Ernie Prabhakar
sandhyaprabh...
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Feb 14, 2007
9:52 pm

Marc, I already explained to Rajiv last November that I would not allow Sun to go forward with the REST name in the API. It doesn't make any sense to name one...
Roy T. Fielding
roy_fielding
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Feb 14, 2007
11:44 pm

... Roy, I think we may have gotten our wires crossed somewhere, when you discussed this with Rajiv last November you certainly didn't rule out any name with...
Marc Hadley
marc_hadley
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Feb 15, 2007
12:42 am

... o Why not just have an interface with the well known verbs on? I know Java5 makes annotations possible, but it is not clear they are always appropriate....
Steve Loughran
steve_loughran
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Feb 15, 2007
2:06 pm

Hi Steve, You raise some interesting points, detailed discussion of which really belong in the expert group once it is formed. For now I'll take a shot at some...
Marc Hadley
marc_hadley
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Feb 15, 2007
3:38 pm

... We're still waiting to hear if everyone is welcome in the expert group forum or if it will be a closed discussion. I hope it's the former, but if it's the...
Elliotte Harold
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Feb 15, 2007
4:10 pm

... I would suggest that a critical use case is being able to manage this from a web-based interface; e.g. like WordPress is configured. That may not be part...
Elliotte Harold
elharo@...
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Feb 15, 2007
4:15 pm

... You know, I think I trust Marc et all to come up with something worthwhile and put it in the hands of a lot of developers. What worries me most about REST...
Paul Downey
sumnerdowney
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Feb 14, 2007
9:48 pm

... I am trying to tackle exactly this issue. I certainly agree that as a general statement, REST isn't testable as it is an architectural style ... however...
Alan Dean
alan_james_dean
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Feb 14, 2007
10:07 pm

... Oh! that's excellent. Just the sort of thing I was thinking of. Well done. -- Nic Ferrier http://www.tapsellferrier.co.uk for all your tapsell ferrier...
Nic James Ferrier
nferrier_tap...
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Feb 14, 2007
10:29 pm

... The reason you can't make REST testable is that REST isn't one thing. It's an architectural style. HTTP allows highly RESTfull systems. But an HTTP app can...
Nic James Ferrier
nferrier_tap...
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Feb 14, 2007
10:27 pm

... That's either going to happen or we become the smug Lisp weenies of distributed systems. The question is are the REST community (us) and software designers...
Bill de hOra
bdehora
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Feb 14, 2007
11:22 pm

... Hey. I'm a smug lisp weenie. ... Certainly there are better HTTP toolkits that need to be written. I was doing some openid hacking the other day with...
Nic James Ferrier
nferrier_tap...
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Feb 14, 2007
11:39 pm

... Try this one: http://bitworking.org/projects/httplib2/ cheers Bill...
Bill de hOra
bdehora
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Feb 15, 2007
12:03 am

... Yeah... it's nice. But the fact that there are good frameworks out there wasn't my point. urllib2 comes with python, a language that supposedly gets the ...
Nic James Ferrier
nferrier_tap...
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Feb 15, 2007
12:25 am

... What's wrong with it? (he asks after just making the decision to focus the vast majority of his next language learning time on python...) -- -Mike Schinkel...
Mike Schinkel
mikeschinkel
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Feb 15, 2007
5:46 am

... It's very complex and not as configurable as it should be. I have been doing something interesting with SSL lately and was using Python. Python's default...
Nic James Ferrier
nferrier_tap...
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Feb 15, 2007
10:27 am

... Does httplib2 provide a way to set timeouts? I didn't see that in the docs. <rant> That's been my biggest complaint with python's standard network client ...
Paul Winkler
slinkp23
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Feb 15, 2007
4:48 pm

Paul Winkler <pw_lists@...> writes: <rant> <edited/> ... I agree... the opportunity for reuse is very low. -- Nic Ferrier ...
Nic James Ferrier
nferrier_tap...
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Feb 15, 2007
4:59 pm

... In a shameless bit of self-promotion, you should really be using httplib2: http://bitworking.org/projects/httplib2/ -joe -- Joe Gregorio...
Joe Gregorio
JCGregorio
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Feb 15, 2007
3:21 am

... Any chance of getting httplib2 into the standard library Joe? cheers Bill...
Bill de hOra
bdehora
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Feb 15, 2007
10:39 am

... That's always been a stated goal of the project, though I need to submit all the right forms and put a little more polish on the library before I actively...
Joe Gregorio
JCGregorio
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Feb 15, 2007
3:51 pm

So Paul would like to see something other than me going "aha! it's like the pirate code me hearties" and other people going "eurgh" and then there's an endless...
Nic James Ferrier
nferrier_tap...
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Feb 14, 2007
10:29 pm
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