maybe it's a temporary thing but I can't access
http://purl.org/rss/1.0/schema.rdf - maybe something to do with
yahoogroups mucking around? it just hangs....

cheers

Libby

I've been trying out some ideas for representing complex events in RSS
1.0, based on the iCalendar work[1] and work by the RDF calendar
taskforce[2]. A summary is at

http://ilrt.org/discovery/2002/01/cal-rss/

there are several potential difficulties with this approach that I can
think of - see

http://ilrt.org/discovery/2002/01/cal-rss/issues.html

I'd be grateful for feedback.

Libby


[1]http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2445.txt
[2]http://ilrt.org/discovery/2001/04/calendar/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Libby Miller <libby.miller@...> writes:

> I've been trying out some ideas for representing complex events in RSS
> 1.0, based on the iCalendar work[1] and work by the RDF calendar
> taskforce[2]. A summary is at
>
> http://ilrt.org/discovery/2002/01/cal-rss/
>
> there are several potential difficulties with this approach that I can
> think of - see
>
> http://ilrt.org/discovery/2002/01/cal-rss/issues.html
>
> I'd be grateful for feedback.
<snip/>

Are you aware of the 'events' discussion going on under
syndication@yahoogroups.com???

You should take a look, especially if you want to do this type of work.. :)

Kevin

- --
Kevin A. Burton ( burton@..., burton@..., burtonator@...
)
              Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
         Jabber - burtonator@...,  Web - http://relativity.yi.org/

You have no chance to survive, make your time. ha ha ha
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt

iD8DBQE8NkauAwM6xb2dfE0RAmRrAKCJ2jJvStUfTpGFwixGS+WBky8TfwCeJwS7
+ABnybs8frT2UV1uEsnRUbU=
=g8zT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

RSS 1.0 WG,

The Yahoogroups web service, to which the PURL for the RSS 1.0 namespace
URI, http://purl.org/rss/1.0/ currently redirects, now requires cookies.
This makes it tricky for the XHTML/RDDL/RDFSchema document at that URI to
be dereferenced by automated tools.

I copy below a quick sanity-check exchange w/ Rael. I have mirrored our
namespace document at w3.org so that it is accessible without cookies. I
propose that we reconfigure the PURL server to point to this URI instead
of to yahoogroups, at least for the main RSS 1.0 URI. I'll propose a poll
to that effect once we've had time to discuss any possible complications
or alternatives. If the poll is positive, we can take it to a WG vote.

http://www.w3.org/2002/01/rss/rss1_namespace

I'll keep this sync'd with any changes to the master copy which currently
resides on www.yahoogroups.com. I'm happy to host such RSS-related docs at
W3C (loosly under the RDF Interest Group banner, ie. this isn't about
going standards-track at W3C). However at W3C we don't yet have the kind
of easy file-sharing tools offered by Yahoo, and I'm wary of creating a
bottleneck for the kind of collaboration we've achieved through the use
of Yahoo's (advertisement-strewn) Web services. We do however take URI
longevity pretty seriously, so I'm happy to offer the WG
http://www.w3.org/2002/01/rss/rss1_namespace as a URI that
http://purl.org/rss/1.0/ might redirect to, or that tool developers might
make use of.

We could probably copy a bunch of the other docs from the WG filespace on
yahoogroups to W3C (eg. the modules), and it may be that the workings of
the PURL server might require this for PURLs that begin with the same URI;
I'd need to check.  Perhaps someone more familiar with the PURL service
could comment? (EricM?)

So I propose a poll (and then vote), with draft text as follows:

(hmm, I've not done one of these before. sorry if this sounds po-faced!)

[[
The RSS 1.0 WG accepts the offer to host some or all of the RSS 1.0 PURL
redirections on the W3C's Web site. This constitutes an informal collaboration
between the RSS 1.0 WG and the W3C RDF / Semantic Web Interest Group; the
continued management of the RSS 1.0 specification and associated
extensions remains with the RSS 1.0 Working Group. The motivation for this
collaboration is to offer cookie and advert-free access to key RSS 1.0
documents for the Web community and their automated tools and services.
The WG also notes that the proposed PURL change is not final, and that
the RSS 1.0 PURLs can be redirected elsewhere in the future.

Proposed redirection changes:

PURL: 	 http://purl.org/rss/1.0/
Current:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/files/namespace.html
Proposed: http://www.w3.org/2002/01/rss/rss1_namespace

Other PURL redirections: to be discussed/proposed?? (in this poll/vote??
or subsequently?? I suggest "at the discretion of the WG chair", ie. leave
this decision to the chair rather than vote on each/every doc URI).

]]
(end of draft poll/vote text)

I'm hoping this should be reasonably uncontroversial, and that we can get
our PURL working again asap. If I've misjudged and this looks like a
clumsy yet sinister W3C takover attempt, or if others rush forward
offering to host the doc(s), maybe it'll take longer.

Comments to the list please; I'll see what folks think and refine and
initiate a poll over the next few days. I'll ping the RDF Interest Group
list too once RSS-DEV has had a digest the proposal.

cheers,

Dan




--
mailto:danbri@...
http://www.w3.org/People/DanBri/


(copied below w/ permission, msg w/ Rael from this morning)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 10:44:03 -0800
From: Rael Dornfest <rael@...>
To: Dan Brickley <danbri@...>
Subject: Re: YahooGroups / rss namespace PURL

Go ahead and propose a poll and I'll support it with pleasure.

Rael

On 1/9/02 6:58 AM, "Dan Brickley" <danbri@...> sayeth:

>
> Rael,
>
> YahooGroups seems to be going downhill; more adverts everywhere etc.
>
> This is a pain for the archives, but I guess livable with. But there's a
> problem with the PURL for our namespace. The content isn't dereferencable
> without cookies switched on, it seems. This makes it hard for automated
> tools to load up our schema declarations. Libby ran into this problem
> recently.
>
> For example...
>
> [pldab@snowball pldab]$ wget http://purl.org/rss/1.0/
> --14:41:46--  http://purl.org:80/rss/1.0/
>          => `index.html'
> Connecting to purl.org:80... connected!
> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 302 Moved Temporarily
> Location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/files/namespace.html
> [following]
> --14:41:52--
> http://groups.yahoo.com:80/group/rss-dev/files/namespace.html
>          => `namespace.html'
> Connecting to groups.yahoo.com:80... connected!
> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 302
> Location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/files/namespace.html
> [following]
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/files/namespace.html: Redirection to
> itself.
>
> Trying same in Lynx gets me:
>
> [[
>
>    Your browser is not accepting our cookies. To view this page,
>    please set your browser preferences to accept cookies (code 0).
>
> ]]
>
>
> How would you feel about having the RSS 1.0 namespace PURL redirect (at
> least as an interim measure) to W3C's site?
>
> I've taken the liberty of mirroring the RSS 1.0 namespace "front page" on
> w3.org, so there is at least a cookie-free URL for the XHTML/RDF/RDDL
> document.
>
> http://www.w3.org/2002/01/rss/rss1_namespace
>
> Not really sure what's best to do. Propose the PURL-switch to RSS-DEV as a
> vote?
>
> What do you reckon?
>
> Dan
>


Rael

Rael Dornfest
Researcher
O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.
Weblog: http://www.oreillynet.com/~rael/

The O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference
May 13-16, 2002 - Santa Clara, CA.
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/etcon2002/

I second the poll.  Go ahead and create one, Danbri.

Another thought... Should we consider moving everything but our mailing list
conversation over to a Weblog hosted somewhere?  I've been using
MoveableType [http://www.moveabletype.org] for some time for my own Weblogs
and it's feature rich: discussion, file upload, multiple
authors/administrators, RSS feeds, and so forth.

If someone volunteers to host it (it's a couple-three Perl scripts) I'll be
glad, as chair, to act as one of the editors/admins.  There should also be a
few more folks from the WG who'd edit/admin.

Rael

On 1/9/02 1:18 PM, "Dan Brickley" <daniel.brickley@...> sayeth:

>
> RSS 1.0 WG,
>
> The Yahoogroups web service, to which the PURL for the RSS 1.0 namespace
> URI, http://purl.org/rss/1.0/ currently redirects, now requires cookies.
> This makes it tricky for the XHTML/RDDL/RDFSchema document at that URI to
> be dereferenced by automated tools.
>
> I copy below a quick sanity-check exchange w/ Rael. I have mirrored our
> namespace document at w3.org so that it is accessible without cookies. I
> propose that we reconfigure the PURL server to point to this URI instead
> of to yahoogroups, at least for the main RSS 1.0 URI. I'll propose a poll
> to that effect once we've had time to discuss any possible complications
> or alternatives. If the poll is positive, we can take it to a WG vote.
>
> http://www.w3.org/2002/01/rss/rss1_namespace
>
> I'll keep this sync'd with any changes to the master copy which currently
> resides on www.yahoogroups.com. I'm happy to host such RSS-related docs at
> W3C (loosly under the RDF Interest Group banner, ie. this isn't about
> going standards-track at W3C). However at W3C we don't yet have the kind
> of easy file-sharing tools offered by Yahoo, and I'm wary of creating a
> bottleneck for the kind of collaboration we've achieved through the use
> of Yahoo's (advertisement-strewn) Web services. We do however take URI
> longevity pretty seriously, so I'm happy to offer the WG
> http://www.w3.org/2002/01/rss/rss1_namespace as a URI that
> http://purl.org/rss/1.0/ might redirect to, or that tool developers might
> make use of.
>
> We could probably copy a bunch of the other docs from the WG filespace on
> yahoogroups to W3C (eg. the modules), and it may be that the workings of
> the PURL server might require this for PURLs that begin with the same URI;
> I'd need to check.  Perhaps someone more familiar with the PURL service
> could comment? (EricM?)
>
> So I propose a poll (and then vote), with draft text as follows:
>
> (hmm, I've not done one of these before. sorry if this sounds po-faced!)
>
> [[
> The RSS 1.0 WG accepts the offer to host some or all of the RSS 1.0 PURL
> redirections on the W3C's Web site. This constitutes an informal collaboration
> between the RSS 1.0 WG and the W3C RDF / Semantic Web Interest Group; the
> continued management of the RSS 1.0 specification and associated
> extensions remains with the RSS 1.0 Working Group. The motivation for this
> collaboration is to offer cookie and advert-free access to key RSS 1.0
> documents for the Web community and their automated tools and services.
> The WG also notes that the proposed PURL change is not final, and that
> the RSS 1.0 PURLs can be redirected elsewhere in the future.
>
> Proposed redirection changes:
>
> PURL:         http://purl.org/rss/1.0/
> Current:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/files/namespace.html
> Proposed:    http://www.w3.org/2002/01/rss/rss1_namespace
>
> Other PURL redirections: to be discussed/proposed?? (in this poll/vote??
> or subsequently?? I suggest "at the discretion of the WG chair", ie. leave
> this decision to the chair rather than vote on each/every doc URI).
>
> ]]
> (end of draft poll/vote text)
>
> I'm hoping this should be reasonably uncontroversial, and that we can get
> our PURL working again asap. If I've misjudged and this looks like a
> clumsy yet sinister W3C takover attempt, or if others rush forward
> offering to host the doc(s), maybe it'll take longer.
>
> Comments to the list please; I'll see what folks think and refine and
> initiate a poll over the next few days. I'll ping the RDF Interest Group
> list too once RSS-DEV has had a digest the proposal.
>
> cheers,
>
> Dan
>
>
>


Rael

Rael Dornfest
Researcher
O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.
Weblog: http://www.oreillynet.com/~rael/

The O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference
May 13-16, 2002 - Santa Clara, CA.
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/etcon2002/

Rael wrote:
>
> If someone volunteers to host it (it's a couple-three Perl scripts) I'll
be
> glad, as chair, to act as one of the editors/admins.  There should also be
a
> few more folks from the WG who'd edit/admin.
>

I'd be glad to host it at quicktopic.com if we decide to use it.

Steve

On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Rael Dornfest wrote:

> I second the poll.  Go ahead and create one, Danbri.

OK, I'll leave it a while to see if the text needs refining (I'm not
distinguishing between poll and vote text, though I suppose poll is just
'should we vote on the following text [...]').


> Another thought... Should we consider moving everything but our mailing list
> conversation over to a Weblog hosted somewhere?  I've been using
> MoveableType [http://www.moveabletype.org] for some time for my own Weblogs
> and it's feature rich: discussion, file upload, multiple
> authors/administrators, RSS feeds, and so forth.

I'm officially intrigued. Most of my weblog-like behaviour is now done via
IRC (http://www.w3.org/RDF/Interest/#irc) and I'd not taken a look at this
yet.

> If someone volunteers to host it (it's a couple-three Perl scripts) I'll be

We could perhaps host this on a W3C-hosted box (he says generously,
without checking with other folks it'd create work for). If others are
enthusiastic, I'll look into it.

Related grumble: I'm thinking of moving my rdfweb-dev list away from
YahooGroups; the adverts are just too invasive now. Am interested to hear
of other list hosting options, though current thinking is just to set up
an independent mail archive elsewhere and leave list management at Yahoo.

Dan

> glad, as chair, to act as one of the editors/admins.  There should also be a
> few more folks from the WG who'd edit/admin.
>
> Rael

On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dan Brickley wrote:

> Related grumble: I'm thinking of moving my rdfweb-dev list away from
> YahooGroups; the adverts are just too invasive now. Am interested to hear
> of other list hosting options, though current thinking is just to set up
> an independent mail archive elsewhere and leave list management at Yahoo.
>

I've been doing a little research for the Online Policy Group[1] (an EFF
project) with an eye towards finding a free alternative to YahooGroups.

We were looking at buidling something, maybe taking advantage of the new
Zope/Mailman bindings.

However I've been impressed with Sympa[2].  Its perl, a lot of its
comments are still in French, and it was tricky to install.

However its a really nice list manager, good web archives, and has support
for a number of the features of YahooGroups including file sharing, and
posting from a web interface. (no polls I think, wasn't in your
requirements, but that seems easy to fix)

Moveable Type[3] is a nice cgi, rapidly improving (you no longer need to
have a chmod 777 folder in your web directory) but I don't think its
really a replacement for YahooGroups.

kellan

1. http://www.onlinepolicy.org
2. http://listes.cru.fr/sympa/
3. http://www.moveabletype.org (i love that name)

Great idea, danbri. A few comments:

On 2002-09-01 3:18 PM, "Dan Brickley" <danbri@...> wrote:

> We could probably copy a bunch of the other docs from the WG filespace on
> yahoogroups to W3C (eg. the modules), and it may be that the workings of
> the PURL server might require this for PURLs that begin with the same URI;
> I'd need to check.  Perhaps someone more familiar with the PURL service
> could comment? (EricM?)

It depends on the kind of PURL set up. I think with the current set-up we
don't need to copy everything.

> (hmm, I've not done one of these before. sorry if this sounds po-faced!)

It's way too long for a poll, which <sarcasm>YahooGroups kindly eliminates
linebreaks and HTML from</sarcasm>.

How about:

Do you support having http://purl.org/rss/1.0/ files redirect to someplace
in http://www.w3.org/2002/01/rss/? See
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/message/x for details.

  - Yes
  - No
  - Abstain

As I'm tempted to get this completed ASAP, can I suggest that we not run a
poll/vote unless someone on the list dissents? (If there's unanimity, I
don't see the point in a poll/vote.)

--
[ "Aaron Swartz" ; <mailto:me@...> ; <http://www.aaronsw.com/> ]

Howdy,

On 1/9/02 2:22 PM, "kellan" <kellan@...> sayeth:

> Moveable Type[3] is a nice cgi, rapidly improving (you no longer need to
> have a chmod 777 folder in your web directory) but I don't think its
> really a replacement for YahooGroups.

Not for the mailing list and archive portion, but it'd be great for drawing
out interesting threads from the discussion to feature, news, views,
proposals, and so forth.  I can't say enough about my belief in the product
-- aside from having put in my $20 donation, that is.

In general, I think a Weblog is perfect for working groups to reflect their
work to the outside world, while the gewy chewy bits are handled via mailing
list.   This has long been the problem with a mailing list as the primary
site -- newbies and other interested parties just can't keep up with it all,
if even understand what it's all about and where to begin in the first
place.

...

> 3. http://www.moveabletype.org (i love that name)

Rael

Rael Dornfest
Researcher
O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.
Weblog: http://www.oreillynet.com/~rael/

The O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference
May 13-16, 2002 - Santa Clara, CA.
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/etcon2002/

Howdy,

On 1/9/02 3:30 PM, "Aaron Swartz" <aswartz@...> sayeth:

> As I'm tempted to get this completed ASAP, can I suggest that we not run a
> poll/vote unless someone on the list dissents? (If there's unanimity, I
> don't see the point in a poll/vote.)

As much as it's tempting to want to route around our convention, this is a
pandora's box.  We don't, mind you, have to have a poll before vote.  I
propose a vote.  If we have a second and put it up, we're only 3 days from
done.

Rael

Rael Dornfest
Researcher
O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.
Weblog: http://www.oreillynet.com/~rael/

The O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference
May 13-16, 2002 - Santa Clara, CA.
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/etcon2002/

Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the
rss-dev group:

***RSS-DEV VOTE***
Do you support having http://purl.org/
rss/1.0/ files redirect to someplace
in http://www.w3.org/2002/01/rss/?
See
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-
dev/message/2324 for details.

   o Yes
   o No
   o Abstain


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

On 2002-09-01 6:16 PM, "Rael Dornfest" <rael@...> wrote:

> If we have a second and put it up, we're only 3 days from
> done.

Seconded.

Up: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/surveys?id=848179

Vote today,

--
[ "Aaron Swartz" ; <mailto:me@...> ; <http://www.aaronsw.com/> ]

Aaron,

Can you make sure to edit the Vote text so that it notes this is a WG vote,
not an IG poll.  The only reason I guessed that (aside from your current
note of confirmation) was that anonymity was off.

Rael

On 1/9/02 4:23 PM, "Aaron Swartz" <aswartz@...> sayeth:

> On 2002-09-01 6:16 PM, "Rael Dornfest" <rael@...> wrote:
>
>> If we have a second and put it up, we're only 3 days from
>> done.
>
> Seconded.
>
> Up: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/surveys?id=848179
>
> Vote today,


Rael

Rael Dornfest
Researcher
O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.
Weblog: http://www.oreillynet.com/~rael/

The O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference
May 13-16, 2002 - Santa Clara, CA.
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/etcon2002/

On 2002-09-01 6:25 PM, "Rael Dornfest" <rael@...> wrote:

> Can you make sure to edit the Vote text so that it notes this is a WG vote,
> not an IG poll.  The only reason I guessed that (aside from your current
> note of confirmation) was that anonymity was off.

I thought "VOTE" was clear enough, but changed.

--
[ "Aaron Swartz" ; <mailto:me@...> ; <http://www.aaronsw.com/> ]

Not to newcomers it isn't.  That's why we always had that verbose crud about
this being for WG members only.

Rael

On 1/9/02 4:29 PM, "Aaron Swartz" <aswartz@...> sayeth:

> On 2002-09-01 6:25 PM, "Rael Dornfest" <rael@...> wrote:
>
>> Can you make sure to edit the Vote text so that it notes this is a WG vote,
>> not an IG poll.  The only reason I guessed that (aside from your current
>> note of confirmation) was that anonymity was off.
>
> I thought "VOTE" was clear enough, but changed.


Rael

Rael Dornfest
Researcher
O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.
Weblog: http://www.oreillynet.com/~rael/

The O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference
May 13-16, 2002 - Santa Clara, CA.
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/etcon2002/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Rael Dornfest <rael@...> writes:

> I second the poll.  Go ahead and create one, Danbri.
>
> Another thought... Should we consider moving everything but our mailing list
> conversation over to a Weblog hosted somewhere?  I've been using MoveableType
> [http://www.moveabletype.org] for some time for my own Weblogs and it's
> feature rich: discussion, file upload, multiple authors/administrators, RSS
> feeds, and so forth.
>

<snip/>

Hm.. Is this a suggestion that we move away from mailing lists?  I hope
now... :(

Kevin


- --
Kevin A. Burton ( burton@..., burton@..., burtonator@...
)
              Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
         Jabber - burtonator@...,  Web - http://relativity.yi.org/

Whenever there is a conflict between human rights and property rights, human
rights must prevail.
   -- Abraham Lincoln
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Dan Brickley <daniel.brickley@...> writes:

> RSS 1.0 WG,
>
> The Yahoogroups web service, to which the PURL for the RSS 1.0 namespace URI,
> http://purl.org/rss/1.0/ currently redirects, now requires cookies.  This
> makes it tricky for the XHTML/RDDL/RDFSchema document at that URI to be
> dereferenced by automated tools.

What are the problems that automated tools are having?

I just tried from 'wget' and I get an infinite redirect.  Mozilla does not seem
to exhibit this.

> I copy below a quick sanity-check exchange w/ Rael. I have mirrored our
> namespace document at w3.org so that it is accessible without cookies.

+1

> I propose that we reconfigure the PURL server to point to this URI instead of
> to yahoogroups, at least for the main RSS 1.0 URI. I'll propose a poll to that
> effect once we've had time to discuss any possible complications or
> alternatives. If the poll is positive, we can take it to a WG vote.

Ok... either that or we can move forward if we don't get any -1s.

> http://www.w3.org/2002/01/rss/rss1_namespace
<snip/>

Thanks for working on this!

Kevin

- --
Kevin A. Burton ( burton@..., burton@..., burtonator@...
)
              Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
         Jabber - burtonator@...,  Web - http://relativity.yi.org/

Says Ransome Love:

    We gave the Linux community more than Stallman with his libraries.  Our work
    helps Linux so much more than a few lines of code.

       (http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2779682,00.html)

     See http://www.gnu.org/gnu/the-gnu-project.html for the real story.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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xYtnOjMOfXDmT24gA/L5P/s=
=l7N+
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> In general, I think a Weblog is perfect for working groups to reflect their
> work to the outside world, while the gewy chewy bits are handled via mailing
> list.   This has long been the problem with a mailing list as the primary
> site -- newbies and other interested parties just can't keep up with it all,
> if even understand what it's all about and where to begin in the first
> place.

I agree. Any high volume and/or long-running mailing list has barriers to
entry for newbies. It's also hard to sift out good content from a stream
of messages in an archive. Some level of abstracting has to happen to
make this useful -- which is what I've been doing for several years
for XML-DEV.

I don't have the time to contribute any significant editorial input at
present, unfortunately.

Cheers,

L.

--
Leigh Dodds, Research Group, Ingenta | "Pluralitas non est ponenda
http://weblogs.userland.com/eclectic |    sine necessitate"
http://www.xml.com/pub/xmldeviant    |     -- William of Ockham

Hi Dan,

I think it's a good idea and an honnor for RSS 1.0 to be hosted on the
W3C Web site but I am wondering under which licence it will be published.

Will it it covered (or absorbed) by a general licence applying to
documents published on the W3C web site or can it keep its current
licence unaltered?

Thanks

Eric

Dan Brickley wrote:

> RSS 1.0 WG,
>
> The Yahoogroups web service, to which the PURL for the RSS 1.0 namespace
> URI, http://purl.org/rss/1.0/ currently redirects, now requires cookies.
> This makes it tricky for the XHTML/RDDL/RDFSchema document at that URI to
> be dereferenced by automated tools.
>
> I copy below a quick sanity-check exchange w/ Rael. I have mirrored our
> namespace document at w3.org so that it is accessible without cookies. I
> propose that we reconfigure the PURL server to point to this URI instead
> of to yahoogroups, at least for the main RSS 1.0 URI. I'll propose a poll
> to that effect once we've had time to discuss any possible complications
> or alternatives. If the poll is positive, we can take it to a WG vote.
>
> http://www.w3.org/2002/01/rss/rss1_namespace
>
> I'll keep this sync'd with any changes to the master copy which currently
> resides on www.yahoogroups.com. I'm happy to host such RSS-related docs at
> W3C (loosly under the RDF Interest Group banner, ie. this isn't about
> going standards-track at W3C). However at W3C we don't yet have the kind
> of easy file-sharing tools offered by Yahoo, and I'm wary of creating a
> bottleneck for the kind of collaboration we've achieved through the use
> of Yahoo's (advertisement-strewn) Web services. We do however take URI
> longevity pretty seriously, so I'm happy to offer the WG
> http://www.w3.org/2002/01/rss/rss1_namespace as a URI that
> http://purl.org/rss/1.0/ might redirect to, or that tool developers might
> make use of.
>
> We could probably copy a bunch of the other docs from the WG filespace on
> yahoogroups to W3C (eg. the modules), and it may be that the workings of
> the PURL server might require this for PURLs that begin with the same URI;
> I'd need to check.  Perhaps someone more familiar with the PURL service
> could comment? (EricM?)
>
> So I propose a poll (and then vote), with draft text as follows:
>
> (hmm, I've not done one of these before. sorry if this sounds po-faced!)
>
> [[
> The RSS 1.0 WG accepts the offer to host some or all of the RSS 1.0 PURL
> redirections on the W3C's Web site. This constitutes an informal collaboration
> between the RSS 1.0 WG and the W3C RDF / Semantic Web Interest Group; the
> continued management of the RSS 1.0 specification and associated
> extensions remains with the RSS 1.0 Working Group. The motivation for this
> collaboration is to offer cookie and advert-free access to key RSS 1.0
> documents for the Web community and their automated tools and services.
> The WG also notes that the proposed PURL change is not final, and that
> the RSS 1.0 PURLs can be redirected elsewhere in the future.
>
> Proposed redirection changes:
>
> PURL: 	 http://purl.org/rss/1.0/
> Current:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/files/namespace.html
> Proposed: http://www.w3.org/2002/01/rss/rss1_namespace
>
> Other PURL redirections: to be discussed/proposed?? (in this poll/vote??
> or subsequently?? I suggest "at the discretion of the WG chair", ie. leave
> this decision to the chair rather than vote on each/every doc URI).
>
> ]]
> (end of draft poll/vote text)
>
> I'm hoping this should be reasonably uncontroversial, and that we can get
> our PURL working again asap. If I've misjudged and this looks like a
> clumsy yet sinister W3C takover attempt, or if others rush forward
> offering to host the doc(s), maybe it'll take longer.
>
> Comments to the list please; I'll see what folks think and refine and
> initiate a poll over the next few days. I'll ping the RDF Interest Group
> list too once RSS-DEV has had a digest the proposal.
>
> cheers,
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
>



--
Rendez-vous a Paris pour les Electronic Business Days 2002.
                                    http://www.edifrance.org/ebd/index.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric van der Vlist       http://xmlfr.org            http://dyomedea.com
http://xsltunit.org      http://4xt.org           http://examplotron.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From what I gather from Danbri's post, this is just an informal hosting
arrangement with no further strings.  That said, I'd very much like to make
sure our site maintains its independence, bylaws, authors, etc.

Assuming (and we'll get to this after the first vote is concluded) we want
to run a Weblog for RSS-DEV, I think it'd be great if the W3C could host
that as well.

Rael


On 1/11/02 6:20 AM, "Eric van der Vlist" <vdv@...> sayeth:

> Hi Dan,
>
> I think it's a good idea and an honnor for RSS 1.0 to be hosted on the
> W3C Web site but I am wondering under which licence it will be published.
>
> Will it it covered (or absorbed) by a general licence applying to
> documents published on the W3C web site or can it keep its current
> licence unaltered?
>
> Thanks
>
> Eric
>
> Dan Brickley wrote:
>
>> RSS 1.0 WG,
>>
>> The Yahoogroups web service, to which the PURL for the RSS 1.0 namespace
>> URI, http://purl.org/rss/1.0/ currently redirects, now requires cookies.
>> This makes it tricky for the XHTML/RDDL/RDFSchema document at that URI to
>> be dereferenced by automated tools.
>>
>> I copy below a quick sanity-check exchange w/ Rael. I have mirrored our
>> namespace document at w3.org so that it is accessible without cookies. I
>> propose that we reconfigure the PURL server to point to this URI instead
>> of to yahoogroups, at least for the main RSS 1.0 URI. I'll propose a poll
>> to that effect once we've had time to discuss any possible complications
>> or alternatives. If the poll is positive, we can take it to a WG vote.
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/2002/01/rss/rss1_namespace
>>
>> I'll keep this sync'd with any changes to the master copy which currently
>> resides on www.yahoogroups.com. I'm happy to host such RSS-related docs at
>> W3C (loosly under the RDF Interest Group banner, ie. this isn't about
>> going standards-track at W3C). However at W3C we don't yet have the kind
>> of easy file-sharing tools offered by Yahoo, and I'm wary of creating a
>> bottleneck for the kind of collaboration we've achieved through the use
>> of Yahoo's (advertisement-strewn) Web services. We do however take URI
>> longevity pretty seriously, so I'm happy to offer the WG
>> http://www.w3.org/2002/01/rss/rss1_namespace as a URI that
>> http://purl.org/rss/1.0/ might redirect to, or that tool developers might
>> make use of.
>>
>> We could probably copy a bunch of the other docs from the WG filespace on
>> yahoogroups to W3C (eg. the modules), and it may be that the workings of
>> the PURL server might require this for PURLs that begin with the same URI;
>> I'd need to check.  Perhaps someone more familiar with the PURL service
>> could comment? (EricM?)
>>
>> So I propose a poll (and then vote), with draft text as follows:
>>
>> (hmm, I've not done one of these before. sorry if this sounds po-faced!)
>>
>> [[
>> The RSS 1.0 WG accepts the offer to host some or all of the RSS 1.0 PURL
>> redirections on the W3C's Web site. This constitutes an informal
>> collaboration
>> between the RSS 1.0 WG and the W3C RDF / Semantic Web Interest Group; the
>> continued management of the RSS 1.0 specification and associated
>> extensions remains with the RSS 1.0 Working Group. The motivation for this
>> collaboration is to offer cookie and advert-free access to key RSS 1.0
>> documents for the Web community and their automated tools and services.
>> The WG also notes that the proposed PURL change is not final, and that
>> the RSS 1.0 PURLs can be redirected elsewhere in the future.
>>
>> Proposed redirection changes:
>>
>> PURL:         http://purl.org/rss/1.0/
>> Current:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/files/namespace.html
>> Proposed:    http://www.w3.org/2002/01/rss/rss1_namespace
>>
>> Other PURL redirections: to be discussed/proposed?? (in this poll/vote??
>> or subsequently?? I suggest "at the discretion of the WG chair", ie. leave
>> this decision to the chair rather than vote on each/every doc URI).
>>
>> ]]
>> (end of draft poll/vote text)
>>
>> I'm hoping this should be reasonably uncontroversial, and that we can get
>> our PURL working again asap. If I've misjudged and this looks like a
>> clumsy yet sinister W3C takover attempt, or if others rush forward
>> offering to host the doc(s), maybe it'll take longer.
>>
>> Comments to the list please; I'll see what folks think and refine and
>> initiate a poll over the next few days. I'll ping the RDF Interest Group
>> list too once RSS-DEV has had a digest the proposal.
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>


Rael

Rael Dornfest
Researcher
O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.
Weblog: http://www.oreillynet.com/~rael/

The O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference
May 13-16, 2002 - Santa Clara, CA.
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/etcon2002/

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Rael Dornfest wrote:

> >From what I gather from Danbri's post, this is just an informal hosting
> arrangement with no further strings.  That said, I'd very much like to make
> sure our site maintains its independence, bylaws, authors, etc.

yup. no strings!

> Assuming (and we'll get to this after the first vote is concluded) we want
> to run a Weblog for RSS-DEV, I think it'd be great if the W3C could host
> that as well.

I've not dug much into our policy for this sort of thing, but there are a
lot of documents on w3.org that aren't W3C recommendation-track specs, and
that aren't managed by W3C Working Groups. Simplest example being
lists.w3.org which hosts all kinds of mailing lists (including the WebDAV
WG, for example, an IETF effort).  The copyright statement on the RSS 1.0
spec[1] suggests that there should be no problem hosting copies of the
document on other sites, such as w3.org.

If we were considering a submission-request for publishing this stuff as a
W3C Note, we'd probably have a lot more hoops to jump through; getting
signoffs from the spec authors etc. For now, I believe I can just put this
up alongside other RDF Interest Group discussion docs. And I can take it
down again should we decide to do so. Documents that get published at
http://www.w3.org/TR/* are different; they don't get moved/changed/etc
after publication.

The main thing we'd need to be clear of is to avoid citing the doc in a
way that suggested any sort of W3C REC-track endorsement.
Of course a bunch of us on the semantic web team think RSS 1.0 is the best
thing since sliced bread, but that's kind of different :)
Each document would need to be something that explained it's status etc.
clearly, so that people stumbling over them via search engines, hyperlinks etc
wouldn't mistake them for W3C specifications. Shouldn't be too hard.

My main concern is getting the machine-readable schema back in the Web so
that we get HTTP GET at it without accepting a YahooGroups cookie. Hosting
other docs for the RSS WG, collaboration tools etc. (blogs/wiki?), would
be a bigger project. The latter seems worth investigating, but something
that we can do after we've fixed the cookie problem.

cheers,

Dan


[1] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/files/specification.html

Howdy,

On 1/11/02 10:09 AM, "Dan Brickley" <danbri@...> sayeth:

> My main concern is getting the machine-readable schema back in the Web so
> that we get HTTP GET at it without accepting a YahooGroups cookie. Hosting
> other docs for the RSS WG, collaboration tools etc. (blogs/wiki?), would
> be a bigger project. The latter seems worth investigating, but something
> that we can do after we've fixed the cookie problem.

The former is in process, afterwhich we can work on the latter.

Rael

Rael Dornfest
Researcher
O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.
Weblog: http://www.oreillynet.com/~rael/

The O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference
May 13-16, 2002 - Santa Clara, CA.
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/etcon2002/

The following rss-dev poll is now closed.  Here are the
final results:


POLL QUESTION: ***RSS-DEV WG VOTE (WG
MEMBERS ONLY)***
Do you support having http://purl.org/
rss/1.0/ files redirect to someplace
in http://www.w3.org/2002/01/rss/?
See
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-
dev/message/2324 for details.

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- Yes, 12 votes, 100.00%
- No, 0 votes, 0.00%
- Abstain, 0 votes, 0.00%

INDIVIDUAL VOTES
- Yes
      - alessio@...
      - wkearney99@...
      - aswartz@...
      - ken@...
      - burton@...
      - areggiori@...
      - ldodds@...
      - ian.davis@...
      - catluver67@...
      - vdv@...
      - daniel.brickley@...
      - david@...
- No
- Abstain


For more information about this group, please visit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev

For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/

Hi all,

I've been noticing more than a few feeds have gone offline lately.  A nearly
equal number seem to come online so this isn't troubling.  What I'm
wondering, however, is what thoughts have been given toward aiding the feed
consumer when a feed dies?

There appears to be no standardized mechanism for a feed to indicate it's
going to go offline.  I've noticed that some readers don't even bring this
to the users' attention.  Is it worth considering some sort of trigger that
a feed could contain that would aid the reader program?

Thanks,
Bill Kearney

>I've been noticing more than a few feeds have gone offline lately.  A nearly
  >equal number seem to come online so this isn't troubling.  What I'm
  >wondering, however, is what thoughts have been given toward aiding the feed
  >consumer when a feed dies?

What's wrong with HTTP 404?


--
Morbus Iff ( softcore vulcan pr0n rulezzzzz )
http://www.disobey.com/ && http://www.gamegrene.com/
please me: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/wishlist/25USVJDH68554
icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus

Hi folks,

I came across your e-mail addresses when researching the tools used to
create newsfeeds.  I've sent you a CC of the mailing list message about it.
(It should follow this message)

http://ilrt.org/discovery/2000/11/rss-query/
http://rdf.desire.org/~cmlm/rdfquery/

Would you consider putting something in the RDF output that identified your
toolkit?  There's a move afoot with simple RSS to use a <!-- --> comment
tag.  This mainly to avoid breaking existing simple RSS readers.

What would be the 'correct' way to implement this in RDF formatted RSS?

Thanks,
Bill Kearney

hi Bill

I think you have 2 different things mixed up here. I do have a toolkit
which will generate rss 1.0; however the feeds you mention are Dan
Brickley's, and aren't generated by my toolkit. The toolkit is now
called 'Inkling', and its main url is
http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/rdfquery/

I could put a comment in about the toolkit in the generated rss, but
for these feeds you need to talk to Dan.

cheers

libby


On Fri, 1 Feb 2002, Bill Kearney wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> I came across your e-mail addresses when researching the tools used to
> create newsfeeds.  I've sent you a CC of the mailing list message about it.
> (It should follow this message)
>
> http://ilrt.org/discovery/2000/11/rss-query/
> http://rdf.desire.org/~cmlm/rdfquery/
>
> Would you consider putting something in the RDF output that identified your
> toolkit?  There's a move afoot with simple RSS to use a <!-- --> comment
> tag.  This mainly to avoid breaking existing simple RSS readers.
>
> What would be the 'correct' way to implement this in RDF formatted RSS?
>
> Thanks,
> Bill Kearney
>

Thanks for the clarification.  I'll follow up with Dan on the feeds
themselves.

When you add that comment the polling code at Syndic8.com will notice it.
Anything you put in that text field will be detected and used as it's
toolkit name.  So if you'd probably have the line resemble:

<!-- generator="Inkling/0.50" -->

Thanks,
Bill Kearney

----- Original Message -----

> I think you have 2 different things mixed up here. I do have a toolkit
> which will generate rss 1.0; however the feeds you mention are Dan
> Brickley's, and aren't generated by my toolkit. The toolkit is now
> called 'Inkling', and its main url is
http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/rdfquery/
>
> I could put a comment in about the toolkit in the generated rss, but
> for these feeds you need to talk to Dan.

"Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@...> writes:

> Thanks for the clarification.  I'll follow up with Dan on the feeds
> themselves.
>
> When you add that comment the polling code at Syndic8.com will notice it.
> Anything you put in that text field will be detected and used as it's
> toolkit name.  So if you'd probably have the line resemble:
>
> <!-- generator="Inkling/0.50" -->

Eek!  For RSS 1.0 can we nip this in the bud and do it right?

How about <syndic8:generator>Inkling/0.50</syndic8:generator> as
either a channel element or a root element (the latter being arguably
more appropriate)?

In this case, the property syndic8:generator is not meant to imply
that this "is for syndic8 usage only", but only that Syndic8 is the
source of the definition of what the property is.  The full namespace
declaration (http://syndic8.com/SOMETHING) is left to Syndic8 to
decide, of course.

   -- Ken

P.S. I don't think "backward compatibility" is achieved any better in
RSS 0.9x by not using a new element, either, because if the well
established "ignore what you don't understand" practice, but hey, I'm
not on that working group!