The review on Supernatural: Meetings with the Ancient Teachers of
Mankind by Graham Hancock included this old bromide:  Before this,
humankind had no  art, no religion, and no creative thinking to speak
of. Yet the abilities and  concerns we associate with "being human"
seemed to appear - in archaeological  terms - overnight.
----
Once again, absence of evidence is not proof of absence of being ....
the fact that such items finally happened to occur in a manner and a
locale in which they were accidentally preserved should indicate that
they had developed prior to the event in some way.  How many little
bodies do you find while walking through the woods ... does this mean
there are no squirrels, moles, birds, etc. floundering through the fauna
with you?
Bottom line, we don't know what was going on before, just that it was
definitely going on by the time its observed ...
:)
Ambrose


--
IN HOC MODO MILLIS FRANGITVR .

--Hi Mike,

Straw men?  I think the points I have raised are more substantial
than that, particularly the issue of a balanced and controlled use of
science and technology.  I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary
that we, collectively, apparently must do whatever is scentifically
possible and technically feasible, no matter what the human cost.
This is not a very promising way to run a planet.  The problem, of
course, is the age old one of, "who is going to run the show"?

The Unabomber let his obsession with these problems unhinge his mind,
nevertheless, eventhough he was crazy, he did have a though
provoking  insight when he pointed out that it will be the
scientific/technical community that ultimately call the shots because
they will be the only ones who know and understand the "system" well
enough to do this.  But, even their expertize may be surpassed by the
capacity of self-replicating computers which will construct systems
of such complexity that surpass even the brightest among us to
master. In his scenario we will not be able to turn the 'system' off,
even though it is out of control, because we have become too
dependent on it.  A dire picture.

The proportion of the population that have training in science and
mathematics declines every year ( in the West I am sure ), a trend
that supports his assertion.

My argumant in this discusssion has been that only a rebirth of human
spiritual sensibilities will suffice to counter this drift toward a
society dominated by science/technology and restore some sense of
balance.  I am not against science, but I am for putting science in
its proper place and in right perspective.

When I brought up the medieval world-view I did so to contrast it
with the present unilevel view of science.  The medieval model, The
Great Chain of Being, in its basic form had three levels, Heavens,
Earth, Hells.  These correlate with the 'macro', 'meso' and 'micro-
worlds' of science except for the medieval these three worlds were an
integrated whole with spiritual as well as physical significance,
whereas from a scientific point of view, the macro realm of the
planets and the quantum micro world are all the same 'stuff'as the
terrestial, hence essentially the same as 'one level', with
meansurable physical properties, but no spiritual dimension.

The scientific 'world-view' is really no world view or model at all
because it has provides no dimensional structure ( from whence has
sprung the post modern philosophy of 'destructuralism' ) .The
medieval provided a model centered on the human plane with the higher
worlds ascribed with meaning and importance because they were
saturated with Divinity.

I am not so naive as to believe that the medieval period was a Golden
Age, it abounded in suffering of all kinds, but it did provide a
sustaining spiritual model for living which survived until the rise
of modern science.

Now the medieval understanding of physical reality was minimal and
largely incorrect with a world-view has been abolished, but, has 'the
baby been thrown our with the bathwater' to use a trite phrase?

Humanity, it appears, has throughout its sojourn on this planet, has
had its stories, myths and models of creation and man's place and
role in the cosmos. We seem to innately need that sort of thing.

A question now is can we live well without a such a model?

You may object that science does give us a model and what is wrong
with it?   Well, one big obstacle it that the language of science is
mathematics while the language of the laity is words.  If people
don't understand what the priesthood is saying how can they follow?
How can it mean anything?

Another point of objection is that a satisfying model of the cosmos
should give humanity a place in it. Without this how can meaningful
connections are relations be defined?

And then there is reductionism.  The problem with reductionism is
that it attempts to explain the greater in terms of the less ( of
course it one thinks that the notion of 'greater' and 'lesser' is
pure fiction, then there is no reductionism ).  The consequence is
that that the greater is diminished, and the lesser is
misunderstood.

In the medieval, or Hermetic view, the terrestial plane proceeds from
an intermediate plane and is defined by it, and the intermediate from
the celestial and the celestial from the Divine.

Huston Smith's, "Forgotten Truth - The Common Vision of the World's
Religions", is an enlightening read on the subject of science and
religion.  Europeans have suffered enormously from religious
persecutions and wars, but I don't believe the fault lies so much in
the intrinsic nature of religion as in the misinterpretation and mis
handleing of religion.

The book's Chapter Five, "The Place of Science" makes some thought
provoking parallels between science and religion:

They both claim : (1) Things are not as they seem
(2) The other-than-the-seeming is a "more"; indeed, a stupendous more
(3) This more cannot be known in ordinary ways
(4) It can however be known in ways appropiate to it
(5) the appropiate ways require cultivation
(6) And they require instruments....

Best regards,  Gene J

>
> Hi Gene
>
> I can agree with much that you say, and find sympathy too with some
of
> Berman's complaints - but say again - you (and he) attach the
wrong  target.  It is
> the pursuit of profit that has co-opted human experience and
imagination,
> wrapped in fairy dust and sold it back to us, killing the thing in
the process.
>
> you write:
> " In today's world money is
> king, indeed, it is practically our real  'god'. Science/Technology
> and Corporatism/Capitalism or 'joined at the  hip'.  Science, while
it
> likes to present itself as a high minded  'search for truth',
beyond
> the mundane quest for wealth and power, is in  fact, right in there
> with the rest of us jocking for the funding, grants,  and contracts
to
> be doled out by governments and corporations.   Universities which
in
> the past were devoted to the education of the whole  person and
> producing a graduate with genuine critical thinking skills has  now
> prostituted itself on the alter of money and power and  has lost
its
> voice of true authority,settleing for merely cranking out
> graduates  "with saleable skills".
>
> This is a picture of your country; the most religious of the first
world.
> It is not our (European) experience.  The blame for this state  of
affairs lies
> within your own political process - the weddedness of money to
political
> power; not to 'secular values'.
>
> That this is so can be seen as clear as day by making comparisoms
with
> European countries, with their advances systems of social care and
human  rights.
>
> Secular humanism recognises, and places centre-stage, the human
spirit.
> Capitalisim will capture, patent, and sell us both this and the
very air we
> breath if we let it.
>
> I understand many of your views and complaints to originate in the
> circumstances of your own culture - as does Berman, when he writes
of the death  of
> american culture.
>
> The thing I've be trying to say for some time here is - its not
like that
> over here.  Here we at least try to reject the worst of capitalism,
and
> moderate the remainder to serve the needs of humans.  The funny
thing is,  we are not
> religious - European secular social humanism seeks to nurture
(among  other
> things) the very things you complain are missing.  Science is its
handmaiden,
> its servant - not its master.  Capitalism likewise.   The world you
rail
> against is not a construct of science, nor of of  godlessness, but
is your very own
> increasingly fundamentalist  capitalist jungle.
>
> I've written at length on this issue in past months; but you seem
to be
> blind to the message.  Please re-read my posts and try to get  to
grips with my
> message - I am a humanist who values imagination,  freedom of
consciousness, the
> rights of mankind, the environment; who loves  learning, is
fascinated by the
> universe and by human achievement and  culture.  I'm not blind to
the dangers
> of 'scientism'.  I can  distiguish between good and bad science;
recognize
> that science is a tool which  like any other can be put to good use
or employed
> to do harm.
>
> "The 'scientific method' and 'peer review' are
> barren entities,however,  they can only say 'not this, 'not this',
and
> seldom produce anything."
>
> These are jaundiced words indeed.  You will reject scince and
replace  it
> with what?  A priesthood?  Speaking the words of God.  This  chills
me to the
> bone.  I've seen ideas like this a thousand time in the  history of
my continent.
>  This is America's - and the world's - number one  problem in One
Gene.
>
> "Here I think we come to a fundamental question, namely, "can we
find
> a  scientific basis for ethics.?"
>
> Why ask that question?  Who does?  I ask: Can we find a  humanistic
basis for
> ethics; and the answer is a resounding yes!
>
> "In the past religion provided the foundation for ethical behavior
and  human
> values, "
>
> Sometimes.  The humanistic outlook is ancient and venerable.  And
what a
> wonderful ethical entity that religious foundation was!  Do you
anything of the
> history of Christianity at all?
>
> "but now science provides the dominate world-view.
>
> You've slipped here from ethics to knowledge.  Science provides
the  dominant
> knowlege base, for sure.  But it doesn't control, and barely even
informs,
> ethics.  Democracies, better and worse, do.  People make the  the
laws.
>
> "Can humanity survive without commonly accepted ethical values?   "
>
> Yes and no - this is a complex question that does not benefit from
> simplistic approaches.  What would you include in ethics?  The
right  to pollute the
> air of the planet?  What people do in the privacy of their
bedrooms?  What is
> your focus here; from where would you have our ethics  guided?
>
> "Is the secular humanist position to just not do to others what
you
> don't want them to do to you and you will be accepted sufficient? "
>
> No.  While that is a component, it is only a small part.  The
European
> ethical model is a deeply considered and highly developed attempt
to  find a way
> for people of all beliefs to live together, and to find ways to
empower their
> creative spirits and seek to minimise their footprints on the
planet.
>
> "Isn't this a rather passive, spiritually dead, way of  living? "
>
> If that was the way secular humanists lived, it would be, but it
isn't.
>
> Killing foreigners by the hundreds of thousands so you can drive
your 4*4
> from one end of the country to the other on a whim for a few
dollars, while
> poisoning the air we all breathe - that I call spiritually dead.
Keeping blacks
> in a state of unrelieved poverty in order to provide an  underclass
to do the
> dirty work, and imprisoning them in rediculous numbers and  killing
them,
> those things I find spiritual dead.
>
> You complain of conditions made of political acts of will,  then
attack the
> very means by which you could master them.  Gene,  you continually
attack straw
> men.
>
> And you seem to believe in a golden age when religion provided
ethical and
> political guidance and everyone lived happily.  Could you please
provide me
> with just one thing: a date, and a place when this scenario held
sway?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike
>

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by Dean H. Hamer
$16.47   Used & New from: $12.47



<http://www.amazon.com/gp/item-dispatch/ref=cm_lm_wl_14/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fe\
ncoding=UTF8&type=wishlist&offeringID.1=2aPqJmjLgIlL90WV%252BqHVNtVixUPb1vhSWv4h\
sC7Ymy0F7f%252BfLp0AztKcdsb1jlZowRbnk67T%252F00%253D&asin.0385500580=1&submit.ad\
d-to-registry=addToRegistry>


<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0800631633/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
dimg_16/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>

The Mystical Mind: Probing the Biology of Religious Experience (Theology
and the Sciences)
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0800631633/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_16/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Eugene G. D'Aquili
$13.60   Used & New from: $10.00



<http://www.amazon.com/gp/item-dispatch/ref=cm_lm_wl_15/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fe\
ncoding=UTF8&type=wishlist&offeringID.1=m9zXuWkNlLbWLdaXZLPTXbn22WvSVBIRmhPWgpuS\
FPRV1lRqGhoLobX3mXcRoHMpM2SwvBc3OFE%253D&submit.add-to-registry=addToRegistry&as\
in.0800631633=1>


<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0333912756/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
dimg_17/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>

Approaches to Consciousness : The Marriage of Science and Mysticism
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0333912756/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_17/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Brian L. Lancaster
$79.00   Used & New from: $67.15



<http://www.amazon.com/gp/item-dispatch/ref=cm_lm_wl_16/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fe\
ncoding=UTF8&type=wishlist&offeringID.1=7kzasxLv%252B7G6gfo2CKVStiSefaUkc6%252F2\
yS6LWr66ub8dfyTBJKd0J55bF5euE64HqrVmtMmnuE0%253D&submit.add-to-registry=addToReg\
istry&asin.0333912756=1>


<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0262523027/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
dimg_18/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>

Essential Sources in the Scientific Study of Consciousness (Bradford
Books)
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0262523027/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_18/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Bernard J. Baars
$47.03   Used & New from: $46.52
great compilation



<http://www.amazon.com/gp/item-dispatch/ref=cm_lm_wl_17/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fe\
ncoding=UTF8&type=wishlist&offeringID.1=p%252Fjd5jnup9orwSlH1ylYF1FSCuBO9GCOi4F3\
8ISsqVq2aygOKekhN0ewu04zjMy2x%252FTD790gS%252Fg%253D&asin.0262523027=1&submit.ad\
d-to-registry=addToRegistry>


<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1591022673/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
dimg_19/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>

The Psychological Roots Of Religious Belief: Searching For Angels And
The Parent-god
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1591022673/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_19/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by M. D. Faber
$17.82   Used & New from: $11.44



<http://www.amazon.com/gp/item-dispatch/ref=cm_lm_wl_18/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fe\
ncoding=UTF8&type=wishlist&offeringID.1=XfVb6Rc5pZEYkyGU33Qm9cDdnZ7GSpEVbOXpYKnL\
WDXUC2HR4KU4n%252BOxNxoanPSjVh7WGYHuY40%253D&submit.add-to-registry=addToRegistr\
y&asin.1591022673=1>



shapeshifting list
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/guides/guide-display/-/3GIQMWC2HIRYN/ref=cm\
_bg_dp_m_1/104-9042791-6666329



Afterlife list
http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/20AI131QLH8US/104-9042791-66\
66329?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Here is a NeuroTheology list from Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/1TGVU6C1FE9C6/104-9042791-66\
66329?%5Fencoding=UTF8



Neuropsychological Bases of God Beliefs.
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0275926486/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_1/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Michael A. Persinger
$70.95


Phantoms in the Brain : Probing the Mysteries of the Human Mind
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0688172172/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_2/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by V. S. Ramachandran
$10.88   Used & New from: $5.00


NeuroTheology: Brain, Science, Spirituality, Religious Experience
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0971644586/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_3/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Rhawn Joseph
$44.00   Used & New from: $37.00


The Secret of the Soul : Using Out-of-Body Experiences to Understand Our
True Nature
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/006251671X/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_4/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by William L. Buhlman
$10.20   Used & New from: $7.98
Out of Body Experiences can be induced by stimulating the right angular
gyrus


The Unanswered Question: Death, Near-Death, and the Afterlife
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1571742999/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_5/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Kurt Leland
$11.53   Used & New from: $3.79
The question isnt unanwered, the answer is Hypoxia..check it out in a
medical journal  !


A sense of presence: The phenomenology of certain kinds of visionary and
ecstatic experience, based on a thousand contemporary first-hand
accounts (Studies in religious experience)
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0906165008/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_6/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Timothy Beardsworth
Used & New from: $104.50
An explanation for this? Sure! Abnormal activity in the temporal lobe


The Biology of Belief: How Our Biology Biases Our Beliefs and
Perceptions
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0970813716/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_7/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Joseph Giovannoli
$19.95   Used & New from: $15.19


The "God" Part of the Brain
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0966036700/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_8/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Matthew Alper
$11.95   Used & New from: $9.75
An atheists perspective


The Transmitter to God : The Limbic System, the Soul, and Spirituality
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0970073313/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_9/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Rhawn Joseph
$24.00   Used & New from: $14.70


The Biology Of Belief: Unleashing The Power Of Consciousness, Matter And
Miracles
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0975991477/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_10/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Bruce H. Lipton
$16.50   Used & New from: $16.33


Why God Won't Go Away : Brain Science and the Biology of Belief
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/034544034X/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_11/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Andrew Md Newberg
$11.20   Used & New from: $7.48
Written by theists for theists


Neurotheology: Virtual Religion in the 21st Century
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0945724012/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_12/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Laurence O. McKinney
$13.95   Used & New from: $8.50


Why Would Anyone Believe in God? (Cognitive Science of Religion Series)
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0759106673/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_13/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Justin L. Barrett
$19.95   Used & New from: $16.00


Religion Explained: The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Thought
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465006965/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_14/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Pascal Boyer
$11.90   Used & New from: $10.99


The God Gene : How Faith is Hardwired into our Genes
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385500580/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_15/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Dean H. Hamer
$16.47   Used & New from: $12.47


The Mystical Mind: Probing the Biology of Religious Experience (Theology
and the Sciences)
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0800631633/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_16/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Eugene G. D'Aquili
$13.60   Used & New from: $10.00


Approaches to Consciousness : The Marriage of Science and Mysticism
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0333912756/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_17/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Brian L. Lancaster
$79.00   Used & New from: $67.15


Essential Sources in the Scientific Study of Consciousness (Bradford
Books)
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0262523027/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_18/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Bernard J. Baars
$47.03   Used & New from: $46.52
great compilation


The Psychological Roots Of Religious Belief: Searching For Angels And
The Parent-god
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1591022673/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_19/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by M. D. Faber
$17.82   Used & New from: $11.44

Here is a list on the Afterlife from Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/20AI131QLH8US/104-9042791-66\
66329?%5Fencoding=UTF8



Round Trip
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6304212720/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_1/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
VHS Venantino Venantini      $19.98


God at the Speed of Light
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0876044399/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_2/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by T. Lee, M.D. Baumann      $10.17   Used & New from: $8.50


Lessons from the Light: What We Can Learn from the Near-Death Experience
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0966132785/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_3/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Kenneth Ring      $11.53   Used & New from: $11.00


As it is in Heaven: an interview with Dannion Brinkley
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0967950708/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_4/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
VHS Cindy      $29.95


Saved by the Light
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0061008893/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_5/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Dannion Brinkley      $6.99   Used & New from: $0.91
An amazing story


Life After Life : The Investigation of a Phenomenon--Survival of Bodily
Death
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0062517392/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_6/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Raymond Moody      $10.50   Used & New from: $4.50


The Afterlife Experiments : Breakthrough Scientific Evidence of Life
After Death
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074343658X/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_7/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Gary E. R. Schwartz      Used & New from: $6.79
A scientific viewpoint


The Afterlife Codes: Searching for Evidence of the Survival of the Soul
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1571741917/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_8/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Susy Smith      $10.17   Used & New from: $9.50


After Life
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1932128069/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_9/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by John Edward      $16.29   Used & New from: $3.95
What can I say? I love this man!


Life on the Other Side : A Psychic's Tour of the Afterlife
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0525945393/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_10/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Sylvia Browne      Used & New from: $2.40
My fave author & teacher


Visits from the Afterlife
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0525947566/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_11/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Sylvia Browne      $17.13   Used & New from: $7.99
Can't get enough of this amazing woman's gift !


Fast Lane to Heaven: Celestial Encounters that Changed My Life
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/157174200X/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_13/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Ned Dougherty      $14.93   Used & New from: $6.95
I loved this man's inspirational story


Nothing Better Than Death
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1401064116/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_14/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Kevin Williams      $21.99   Used & New from: $17.00


The Grace in Dying : How We Are Transformed Spiritually as We Die
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0062515659/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_15/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Kathleen D. Singh      $10.85   Used & New from: $4.95


Far Journeys
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385231822/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_16/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Robert Monroe      $10.17   Used & New from: $7.45


Cosmic Journeys: My Out-Of-Body Explorations With Robert A. Monroe
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1571741232/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_17/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Rosalind A. McKnight      $11.16   Used & New from: $8.65
Read and you will learn, Seek and you will find!


The Secret of the Soul : Using Out-of-Body Experiences to Understand Our
True Nature
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/006251671X/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_18/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by William L. Buhlman      $10.20   Used & New from: $7.98
Need proof of the afterlife? Do some astral traveling!


Astral Travel For Beginners (For Beginners)
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/156718796X/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_19/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Richard Webster      $9.95   Used & New from: $3.49
Begin Here


Astral Dynamics: A New Approach to Out-of-Body Experiences
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1571741437/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_20/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Robert Bruce      $12.89   Used & New from: $11.50
Excellent


Parting Notes: A Connection With the Afterlife
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1403306087/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_21/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by April Crawford      $19.95   Used & New from: $14.76


Voyages into the Unknown (Exploring the Afterlife Series, Vol. 1)
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1571740686/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_22/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Bruce Moen      $10.36   Used & New from: $3.74
Excellent Series, read them all.


Voyage Beyond Doubt (Exploring the Afterlife Series , Vol 2)
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1571741011/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_23/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Bruce Moen      $11.16   Used & New from: $7.49


Voyages into the Afterlife: Charting Unknown Territory (Exploring the
Afterlife Series, Vol. 3)
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1571741399/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_24/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Bruce Moen      $11.16   Used & New from: $5.99


Voyage to Curiosity's Father (Exploring the Afterlife Series)
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1571742034/ref=cm_lm_fullview_pro\
d_25/104-9042791-6666329?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>
by Bruce Moen      $11.16   Used & New from: $5.99

Take a virtual tour of the West Virginia Hare Krishna Center --
splendors to rival the great cathedrals!

http://www.palaceofgold.com/virtualtour.htm

Dan

Mindsight: Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in the Blind (Paperback)

Book Description
Ring and Cooper explore evidence that even those blind from birth can
"see" during near-death experiences. Their evidence reveals a unique
type of perception. More than just "seeing", it involves a deep
awareness and profound ability to know that the authors have called
"Mindsight".

This volume is a ground-breaking work in the field of near-death
studies. It investigates the astonishing claim that blind persons,
including those blind from birth, can actually "see" during near-death
or out-of-body episodes. The authors present their findings in
scrupulous detail, investigating case histories of blind persons who
have actually reported visual experiences under these conditions.

There is compelling evidence that the blind do "see" in those moments,
but it is not sight as we think of it. Ring and Cooper uncover a kind of
"transcendental awareness" they refer to as mindsight. It involves the
strange experience of being able to perceive from all angles at once,
from every focal depth at once, and a sense of "knowing" the subject,
not just visually, but with a deep and inexplicable knowledge.

Human beings may be more complex than we thought, gifted with amazing
abilities of perception. This book is an opportunity to assess the
evidence for yourself.

About the Author
Kenneth Ring, Ph.D., is Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the
University of Connecticut and co-founder and Past President of the
International Association for Near-Death Studies. He is also the author
of several previous books about near-death experiences, including Life
at Death, Heading Toward Omega, The Omega Project, and most recently,
Lessons from the Light.

Sharon Cooper, M.A., is a Ph.D. candidate in counseling psychology at
New York University. She has studied yoga, Eastern spirituality, and the
field of near-death studies since the early 1980s.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0966963008/ref=pd_sbs_b_4/104-9042791-6666329?%\
5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

Hi, Myriah

Thanks for the ref.

One that I have just read, and a very good one, is Afterlife Encounters
by Diane Archangeli (?)  She is a hospice counselor and head of the
Elizabeth Kubler-Ross center in Houston.

Dan

IAMMYRIAH@... wrote:

> A must read on this topic and not listed here is 'Hello From Heaven'
> by Bill and Judy Guggenheim.  Published in 1995.  They researched over
> 2,000 people who had direct afterlife contact from their loved ones,
> and have categorized several common types of contact.  I also
> interviewed Judy Guggenheim at a time I was working for an on line
> spiritual journal.  Powerful book.
>
> Myriah
>
>
>
> Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
> http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html
>
> To UNsubscribe, send email to:
> sacredlandscapelist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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>

Mike has objected to my use of the words 'scientific validation,' and I
have objected to his use of 'belief' to characterize my understandings.

Here is how I propose to use these words

1 belief - no evidence whatsoever

2 intuition - some very questionable evidence eg. empty tomb proves
resurrection

3 anecdote - field reports, eg ufo sightings, no tooth decay in certain
areas

4 survey - field reports systematically collected and analysed

5 hypothesis - testable propositions are formulated, experiments are
carried out

6 replication - experiments are repeated across researchers,
laboratories, methods

7 acceptance - some members of the scientific community accept the
results as true

8 validation - nearly all members of the scientific community accept the
results as true

9 technology - results are used in practical applications

10 integration - results are well understood within the larger body of
scientific laws

In this sense I do not have beliefs about god, parapsychology,
mysticism, and the afterlife

My understandings range from intuition through acceptance

Remote Viewing - now up to 7.  Some members of the scientific community
now believe the replication has taken place and they accept remote
viewing as true.

Dan

What amuses me about those "scientific" analyses on things like near
death is that they overlook a key point.
We know that the chemicals and hypoxia etc. produce many of the
sensations which are components of the experiences reported, but never
the complete experience itself, nor usually the persisting effects in
the personality of the individual.
However, those experiences are clearly and carefully monitored on their
devices ... yet a "near death" experience is considered such because
those monitors are flatlined!

Further, it should be an obvious point that for a human to retain and to
integrate a spiritual experience, it must necessarily have physical
analogs for the body to use to recall and to communicate it ...  thus,
finding such bits and pieces counterfeited by drugs etc. does not, IMHO,
"disprove" the original experience, but rather tends to confirm its
reality to me ...

:)
Ambrose

--
IN HOC MODO MILLIS FRANGITVR .

Mike wrote:
Completely untested proposition. (snip) Religious claims of all kinds of
course reside in this  category.
--
Hardly.
The rigors to which a claimed miracle are subjected with the Catholic
Church are fairly severe.
Secondarily, many religions are constantly subjected to examination and
to testing of various kinds.
Indeed, for a significant number of devotees, their religious
perceptions and practices clearly meet the criteria of "First-hand
empirical & examined."
Obviously all too many folks think that their religion fits your highest
category as well ... "Second-hand  empirical from trusted sources."
LOL
Ambrose
--
IN HOC MODO MILLIS FRANGITVR .

Good points, Ambrose

When people talk about psychedelic drugs being able to produce mystical
states, I think about the analogy with visual hallucinations.  Visual
hallucinations are produced in a part of the brain that is dedicated to
visual processing of real world data.  In using psychedelics, when I
have ah hallucination of God, am I using a part of the brain that
processes real world mystical data?

Dan

Ambrose Hawk wrote:

>What amuses me about those "scientific" analyses on things like neart
>death is that they overlook a key point.
>We know that the chemicals and hypoxia etc. produce many of the
>sensations which are components of the experiences reported, but never
>the complete experience itself, nor usually the persisting effects in
>the personality of the individual.
>However, those experiences are clearly and carefully monitored on their
>devices ... yet a "near death" experience is considered such because
>those monitors are flatlined!
>
>Further, it should be an obvious point that for a human to retain and to
>integrate a spiritual experience, it must necessarily have physical
>analogs for the body to use to recall and to communicate it ...  thus,
>finding such bits and pieces counterfeited by drugs etc. does not, IMHO,
>"disprove" the original experience, but rather tends to confirm its
>reality to me ...
>
>:)
>Ambrose
>
>--
>IN HOC MODO MILLIS FRANGITVR .
>
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>
>
>
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>http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html
>
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>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
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>
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>
>
>

--The (man) protests to much, I think..

People who constantly push a cause tend to leave me a little
suspicious as to their real motivations.   Why mount a vendetta
against religion?  To save the world from the practice of bad
religion is one thing, an admirable thing, a worthy service perhaps,
but an attack on humanities whole spiritual enterprise is way over
the top, in my opinion.

The mistake that hard headed intellectual types like Dawkins make is
that they don't have the insight and sensitivity to distinguish the
wheat from the chaff; to them, apparently, "it all looks the same";
when, in fact, there is a world of difference between the religious
sensibilities of a self-avowed fundamentalist, of any religion, and,
for a want of a better word, "a non-fundamentalist", of any religion.

For anyone interested in this subject the current issue of Parabola
is devoted to this issue of religious fundamentalism.

The issue contains several interesting articles, one of Huston
Smith.  In one place Smith says: "fundamentalism takes what is
intrinsically an indispensible necessity and turns it into a
doctrine, which is likely to be disputable..."

The interviewer then says: "I see it more as a meander through the
labyrinth.  It seems that the one thread through the debate about the
root cause of fundamentalism is the spector of being threatened,
cornered, even shamed by modernity".

Smith responds: "Exactly, I like your phrase, "the specter of being
threatened".  In the case of Christianity, the specter emerged around
the end of the last century.  Why then?  Because the churches felt
threatened, as you say. This is worth coming down hard on for the
point will thread its way through the rest of the interview.  The
underlying cause of fundamentlism is this sense of being threatened."

"The threats that produced fundamentalism a century or so ago were
basically two - Darwinism...and Higher Criticism...Regarding
Darwinism..so, as the six days of creation were metaphorical, not
literal ( for the non-fundamentalist ), there was nothing to fear
from a fossil record that showed that it took millions of years for
human beings to come into existence.  However, there is no way to
derive the foundational component of the human self - the 'imago
dei', the Buddha nature, the Atman and the Uncarved Block, whatever
the idiom - from natural sleection working with chance variations.
So if Darwinism claimed to tell the whole story, it did threaten
Christianity.."

Another article, "Where Has God Gone", by William Ventimiglia who
says: "One thing is certain - religious feeling is a given.
Religious feeling goes to the very core of the personality and
without it many people find life unsustainable...the "ground of
being""

"The violent face of radical fundamentalsim reflects just such a
primitive defense of the collective, tribal, group self - an
infectious narcisstic rage, an emotional flooding that inflates the
ego with holy vengence and wrath..."

In 1925 C.G. Jung stated, " you can run across people who think
themselves born without a religious sense, and this is just as absurd
as if they said they were born without eyes.  It simply means they
have left all that side of themselves in the unconscious.."

Returning to Mr. Dawkins, I suppose one could say that either his
unconscious may be in a perilous state, or Mr. Dawkins is indeed a
fresh prototype of the New Darwinian Man,a new human mutation,
forever cut free from the surly bonds of religious needs and all the
irrational behavior such brings in its train....

Gene  J

- In sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com, mikebispham@a... wrote:
>
>
> For UK residents (if there are any)  Richard Dawkins will be
presenting a
> two-parter beginning next monday on Channel  4 at 8.00.
> "Root of all Evil, 1; The God Delusion
> Professor Richard Dawkins, the world-renowned evolutionary
biologist, whose
> atheism has earned him the nickname of 'Darwin’s Rottweiler',
takes a personal
>  journey through the world’s three great monotheistic religions:
> Christianity,  Judaism and Islam.
> Dawkins thinks it is time for science to stop sitting on the fence.
In the
> light of overwhelming scientific evidence that, he believes, shows
a supreme
> being cannot exist, and in a world in which religious conflict and
bigotry are
> increasingly centre stage, Dawkins argues that for the good of
humanity,
> religion needs to be challenged and disproved. Never one to shy
away from a
> debate, Dawkins meets leaders from the Christian, Jewish and Muslim
religions to
> find out how their beliefs fit with modern science's extraordinary
knowledge
> of  our world and the wider universe.
> In The Root of All Evil Dawkins accuses the religious establishment
of
> preying on people’s desire to believe in a greater being; abusing
reason and
> humanity in the process. Ultimately he asks how they can defend
what religion  has
> done, and is doing to us?  "
> What I'd like to see is Dawkins arguing his views with scientists
who oppose
> him...
> Mike
>

Mike, if you are still out there, hope you change your mind and
continue to share your thoughts with us.

I'm sorry that Mike has decided to "abandon the field", rather than to
continue the debate, but the fact that it occured suggests that it
contained something important, something relevant to the times and
worth talikng about,

I recently discovered a book, "The Transformative Vision - Reflections
on Nature and History of Human Expression", by Arguelles.  It was his
first book, published in 1975.  The inspiration for the book came to
him one day in art class when he had the insight that modern art had
become nothing more than than a game of style, "...like clothes to be
taken off or put on without the slightest regard to the inner
feelings.."  He says," The problem of art is inextricably involved with
the problem of history, and the problem of history with the unfathomed
depths of man's own nature.  A rare art historian like Wihelm Worringer
revealed to me that art was generated by spiritual forces, and that art
history properly understood was a "history of the human psyche and its
forms of expression.."

Reading this I realized that what he was saying related to our rambling
debate about, science, religion, spirituality, consciousness,etc.  The
meaning of "Transformative Vision" for Arguelles, is that our survival
depends on a "transcendance of the conflicts we call history..by the
integration of 'psyche' ( right hemisphere ) and 'techne' ( left
hemisphere ).." though these two aspects of human nature can function
independently of each other, the degree of their independence defines
the degree of human imbalance, sickness or insanity.  In actuality they
cannot be understoon separately.  Being whole, the mutual self-
definition comprizes the basis of the psychophysical point of view.."

"Should the idology and mentality of history prevail, then the
transformative vision may have to continue as a strange underground
development..a rhythm more powerful and inexorable than the rhythm of
human reason is sweeping through the human race...this rhythm is the
heartbeat of the transformative vision."

On page 49 of the book Arguelles gives wonderful description of the
meaning of the Gothic cathedral in medieval life.

"..culture is the universally understoood means of expression of a
given social organism; the more highly integrated the culture, the more
conscious and universally shared are the means and meaning of
expression.  The great craftsmen and builders of Gothic Europe were
able to bring about a high level of cultural integration by the
construction of cathedrals.  The process of erecting these great
edifices offered an opportunity for universal participation, uniting
all the arts, beliefs and spiritual practices of the society in one
tangible whole."

"The case of mid-eithteenth-century Europe is quite the reverse; the
arts were no longer coalesced into one work but fragmented into easel
painting, chamber music, novels, and secular architecture. Furthermore,
the craft/guild system was under fatal attack from two sides - the
usurpation of the arts by the academies, and the mechanization of life
that was about to become universal, thus dispensing with the need
for "handicrafts"...the means of culture  were now left in the hands of
a few privileged people only shows that the rest of the people, "the
masses", were culturally deprived.  Not only would the masses become
desensitized and brutalized as a result, but the very meaning of life
could no longer be coherently expressed and transmitted.  This, then,
is the bane of mechanized civilization."

"Cultural disintegration, which manifests socially in increasing modes
of specialization- professionalism -has been aggravated by universal
sensory fragmentation. Again, the Gothic cathedral provides an example
of an aesthetic process whose end is achieved when a participant is
able to experience a state of psychosensorial interfusion.  The effect
of different sensory agents acting upon the participant simultaneously
transfuses and uplifts the whole being, evoking a transcendant
experience.  With the onset of the Renaissance this total experience
became much more the exception than the rule.  One may recall certain
multimedia events,  such as the synchronization of water sculpture,
lights, and music by the great Baroque artist Gianlorenzo Bernini who
was familiar with the nature of mystical experience."

"By and large, from the sixteenth century onward Europeans suffered
increasing sensorial frgamentation, an inevitable result of the
mechanization of consciousness, which naturally limits the organism to
a splintered, sequential point of view.."

Gene  J

Eugene Johnson writes:
>
<SNIPS>
> I recently discovered a book, "The Transformative Vision -
> Reflections on Nature and History of Human Expression", by
> Arguelles. It was his first book, published in 1975.

Arguelles first book was _Charles Henry and the Formation of
a Psychophysical Aesthetic_, published in 1972.


Michael Moynihan Speaks
With Jos� Arg�elles
http://tinyurl.com/cmq4j


"In 1886 Seurat met mathematician and scientist Charles
Henry. Vocal in his ideas about the interconnections between
aesthetics and science, Henry influenced Seurat�s desire to
logically control color and space and his later attempts to
find methodical, scientific means of composition."
http://tinyurl.com/avqgw

"In August 1885 Charles Henry published his "Introduction A
une esthetique scientifique," which argued for an art based
on scientific principles.

As a result of Henry's study of perception, Seurat started
using his technique of "optical mixture." In
October-November 1885 he applied tiny dots of pure color,
which, it was thought, the spectator's eye would recompose
at a distance."
http://tinyurl.com/csnnt

"Other influences on George Seurat included Sutter's
Phenomena of Vision (1880) in which he wrote that 'the laws
of harmony can be learned as one learns the laws of harmony
and music'[1], as well as mathematician Charles Henry who in
the 1880s would hold monologues at the Sorbonne about the
emotional properties and symbolic meaning of lines and
color. Henry's ideas would be quickly adopted by the founder
of Neoimpressionism."
http://tinyurl.com/77nc2

"Seurat adopted some of the concepts described in an article
entitled The Phenomena of Vision, written by theorist David
Sutter. Sutter maintained that light was composed of three
main elements: vertical, horizontal, and diagonal, and
proposed emotional equivalents for certain colors and forms.
Sutter�s analysis of light and line fed into the work of the
mathematician Charles Henry. Henry attempted to define a
method for artists to create harmony by coordinating line
and color according to specific geometric and algebra formulas."
http://tinyurl.com/aynhw

Cors in Manu Domine,


~ Khem Caigan
<Khem@...>

I got home from a long week-end in West Virginia (unfortunately not at
the Golden Palace) to find Mike's 'new list' message on my machine.

It certainly looks to me from the message as if Mike wants to split the
SL list and draw off participants to his new list, ad qadratum.   He
certainly has the right to form any list he likes, but this message
feels like an abuse of SL hospitality to me.  To confuse things, it
seems he intends to stay on SL.

Mike, you are perfectly welcome to stay, but please coordinate any
future reference to Ad Qadratum with me.  You have made your
announcement, please limit it to that.  Any other invitations to join
your new list will be considered an abuse of hospitality and I will ban
you from SL.

Please make any replies to this e-mail to me off list.

Moderator Dan



mikebispham@... wrote:

> Hi All
>
>
>
> Feeling that a lot of the time my ways of thinking are discomforting
> to people here, and that most members of the list are largely
> driven by issues of belief that are not relevant to my own interests
> and approach, I have set up a new list to provide a place for more
> secularly based discussions of the topics we originally set out to
> explore.
>
>
>
> The subject list is very similar to that at sl, but with 'sacred'
> removed to facilitate discussions that otherwise founder on
> differences of core belief.  The chief focus has been restored to
> latent order in the natural world, approachable through mathematics,
> and the employment of mathematics in human artifacts.
>
>
>
> The broad aims of the list are encompassed by it's name, 'Ad
> Quadratum,' which refers first to one of the two design and
> construction methods used by (at least some of) the cathedral builders
> of Europe.  I envisage critical discussions centred on the
> relationships that emerge between the four poles of Mathematics,
> Nature, Human Experience, and Cultural Artifacts.
>
>
>
> I could expand on that a little by saying I want to explore
> mathematics in historical art and artifacts; exploring the ways in
> which human understanding of the world has developed by recognising
> mathematical patterns in nature, and seeking to understand and utilize
> them.
>
>
>
> A fuller outline of aims and topics appears at the homepage.  I
> haven't actually got a topic list together yet.
>
>
>
> I will also, as usual, be keeping an eye out for philosophical and
> linguistic traps - examining ways of knowing from a philosophical
> perspective; and generally engaging in conversations that will amuse,
> challenge, or enlighten us all in some way.
>
>
>
> If you'd like to join the group, head on over to:
>
>
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AdQuad/
>
>
>
> Hope to see some of you there,
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Mike
>
>
> Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
> http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html
>
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> sacredlandscapelist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
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