Just an FYI:

I've just registered the sasxsek.org domain which I intend to be the new home
for the Sasxsek website.  I have only barely started creating the new site so
for right now it's just a redirect to the old site which will remain until I
have everything up to speed.  I'm moving it from IIS to a Linux box running
Apache so there's a lot of backend conversion that will need to be done.  I'm
also considering the idea of using Mediawiki for the whole thing, though I'm not
sure how well that would work with the online dictionary.  I may just make a
Wiktionary-style dictionary.  I'm also hoping to move the discussion group from
Yahoo to my own blog.  There still aren't any sasxsek.org e-mail addresses, so
I'll let others know when that is ready too, and may offer e-mail addresses to
those who are learning to use the language.

> [mailto:sasxsek@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Marjanovic

> > sapa = to be known
> > sapare = that which is known > knowledge, fact
> > sapibe = that which comes to know > learner, student
> > sap(er)i = knowing
> > sapari = known
> > sapo = manifestation of knowledge > information, facts
> > sape = one who knows
> > sapisi = knowing a lot > wise, knowledgeable
> > sapimi = knowing little > ignorant
> > sapise = one who knows a lot > wise one
> > sapibuk = institution for learning > school
> > sapik = knowledge (in the general sense)
>
> I know it's... very late for that, but may I suggest a more isolating
> approach? For example, making the agentive suffix identical  to the root for
> "person/people" or replacing it by that word altogether, the causative
> suffix by "make" or "cause" or suchlike, the augmentative by "big" and the
> diminutive by "small"? In other words, if "one who knows a lot" can be a
> "much-know-man", why shouldn't they be?


That was considered but these features are too common, and I wanted to keep the
syllable count down so I used a system of short suffixes.  An agent may not be a
"person", it could be an animal or even a thing, especially when applied to
statives (saf=white; safe=something that is white, "white one").  And just
because a "person" is attached to a word, doesn't make him the agent.  Would
"attack-person" be the attacker or the victim of the attack?  This way the roles
are always clear.  Causing, becoming and the passive are an important part of
the derivative system because the help reduce the need for lexical roots. The
suffixes "-is" and "-im" indicate a level of magnitude which I wouldn't want to
confuse with physical size. The only part of the system I hesitated on, were the
sex endings.  Originally I planned on just adjectives for "male" and "female"
but needed a shorter way to mark sex which is helpful for animal names where
it's often important.

One of the nice things about E-o is its word-building system with the suffixes
so I decided to make something similar but simpler because E-o's system has too
much semantic overlap.  And unlike E-o, the S:S: affixes are not standalone
words.

> sapa = to be known
> sapare = that which is known > knowledge, fact
> sapibe = that which comes to know > learner, student
> sap(er)i = knowing
> sapari = known
> sapo = manifestation of knowledge > information, facts
> sape = one who knows
> sapisi = knowing a lot > wise, knowledgeable
> sapimi = knowing little > ignorant
> sapise = one who knows a lot > wise one
> sapibuk = institution for learning > school
> sapik = knowledge (in the general sense)

I know it's... very late for that, but may I suggest a more isolating
approach? For example, making the agentive suffix identical to the root for
"person/people" or replacing it by that word altogether, the causative
suffix by "make" or "cause" or suchlike, the augmentative by "big" and the
diminutive by "small"? In other words, if "one who knows a lot" can be a
"much-know-man", why shouldn't they be?

We are not at war with Eastasia. We have never been at war with Eastasia ;-)

Welcome to our group's 20th member.

Now to address his/her question from the signup e-mail:

> mo uan sapife sek fu fo.
> (I want to learn your language)
> Am I correct ?

Not quite.  What you have is ...

	 mo uan sapife sek fu fo.
	 I want know+cause+agent(=teacher) language(lit: "say") toward you.


So a correct way would be ...

	 mo uan sapib sek iu fo.
	 I want know+become(=learn) language of you.


Clarification:

	 sapife = sap + if + e
	 sap  = to know
	 -if  = (causative suffix) "sapif" is "to cause to know" therefore "teach" or
"inform"
	 -e  = (agentive suffix) rougly like English "-er, -or"

	 -ib  = indicates "becoming" so "sapib" is "to come to know" or "to learn"


	 fu  = "to(ward)"  shows motions toward something, and figuratively can be used
to indicate an indirect object.

	 iu  = "of" shows possession or belonging.  Basically a genetive marker.



Just for kicks, I'll carry on with derivatives of "sap".

	 -a  = passive (role reverser)
	 -i  = adjective/adverb marker
	 -is  = intensifier
	 -im  = diminutive (opposite of "-is")
	 -ik  = general or abstract
	 -uk  = institution for ....
	 -o  = manifestation
	 -r-  = (no meaning, epenthetic inserted between vowels)

	 sapa  = to be known
	 sapare = that which is known > knowledge, fact
	 sapibe = that which comes to know > learner, student
	 sap(er)i = knowing
	 sapari = known
	 sapo  = manifestation of knowledge > information, facts
	 sape  = one who knows
	 sapisi = knowing a lot > wise, knowledgeable
	 sapimi = knowing little > ignorant
	 sapise = one who knows a lot > wise one
	 sapibuk = institution for learning > school
	 sapik  = knowledge (in the general sense)

The plan is to use this derivation system as much as is practical to keep down
the number of roots that will be necessary.

> Yes, it's complicated but so is the subject.  It would be nice if it
> was all arranged into a neat little package where each ethinicity
> has a nation and vice versa

Did you read the rest of the e-mail you quoted?

> [mailto:sasxsek@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Marjanovic

> > The answer is to make each one a proper noun.  Proper nouns
being
> > taken from native forms therefore they will be arranged in their
> > native fashion.
>
> Way too complicated.

Yes, it's complicated but so is the subject.  It would be nice if it
was all arranged into a neat little package where each ethinicity
has a nation and vice versa, and those each had a single language of
their own, but that's not the reality.  In reality we have languages
that cross borders, borders that have multiple languages within
them, borders with multiple ethnic groups within them, ethnic groups
without any political entity of their own, and to top it all off
there are even disputes over many of these issues.  Those of us in
the "New World" speak the languages brought here centuries ago by
European settlers.  We don't speak "American-language",
"Mexican-language", etc.  even though there are some feature
specific to those dialects to maybe give them a place of their own.

> We should do it the Chinese way: Bulgar-land, Bulgar-man,
> Bulgar-language...

ARGH! Sorry, I misrepresented that. I mean "Bulgar-land-man".

> ethnic groups with no political entities (ex:
> Kurds, though that may soon change)

Off-topic: will not be allowed by the Turkish military in the foreseeable
future.

> Some nations are named for the people
> (ex: Deutschland), and some people are named after their nation
> (Français).

Mandarin: De2guo2 -- De2guo2ren2 -- De2yu3 (language); Fa3guo2 --
Fa3guo2ren2 -- Fa3yu3. The roots do not occur alone. (Well, the characters
that are used to write them do occur alone, but with completely different
meanings.)

> Others are not aligned at all as with China (Zhongguo)
> and its people (Han)

Indeed: Zhong1guo2ren2 (citizens of China) vs Han4ren2 (ethnic Han4); the
Sinitic language family is called Han4yu3. Better example: Han2guo2 (Korea),
Han2guo2ren2 (citizen of Korea), Han2ren2 (ethnic Korean), Han2yu3
(language).

> If we took the "Chinese way" we'd have to
> make things like "America-language"

We could. We wouldn't need to. After all, it is entirely grammatical to take
"American" in English and pretend it's a language.

> The answer is to make each one a proper noun.  Proper nouns being
> taken from native forms therefore they will be arranged in their
> native fashion.

Way too complicated.

> [mailto:sasxsek@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dmitri Ivanov

> A part of entry under "fut" seems to be under "futon".

I'll have to take a look.  I know the dictionary needs a lot of
cleanup.  Especially since there have been changes where I haven't
had time to update both the electronic version and the PDF.

> Compound words like hatifxkam are easily analysible but the actual
> meaning might be vague: I thought at first about sauna. Of course
this
> may be only the first-glance difficulty.

It could be applied to a sauna as well.  S:S: like every language
has its own semantics schema, so you can't expect parallel meanings
with the words you know from other languages.  "hatifxkam" literally
is "heating chamber" so it could mean "sauna" or "oven".


> >From words with 2 consonants at the end I remember "biliard".

Not a "word" but a name.  Sports, games and such are considered
proper nouns in S:S: therefore they don't have to follow the
phonotactics that the regular lexicon does.


> If "bu" makes antonyms then "bujan" doesn't mean "battle against".

"bu" as a basic semantic unit indicates opposition (against,
contra-, anti-), by extension forming antonyms and negative numbers.
I suppose it is more redundant when combined with "battle" because
you always battle "against" something.

> [mailto:sasxsek@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Marjanovic

> We should _most definitely not_ do it the Esperanto way (described
in the
> bottom half of  http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/s.html).
We should
> do it the Chinese way: Bulgar-land, Bulgar-man, Bulgar-language...

> completely regular and predictable.

This presumes that the whole world is made up of nations whose
people, language and culture are all in pefect alignment.  In
reality, we have ethnic groups with no political entities (ex:
Kurds, though that may soon change) or that are scattered about (ex:
Gypsies) and languages that cover more than one nation, or in some
cases, only part of a nation.  Some nations are named for the people
(ex: Deutschland), and some people are named after their nation
(Français).  Others are not aligned at all as with China (Zhongguo)
and its people (Han), and the people of Taiwan still consider
themselves to be "Chinese" as do Chinese populations in Singapore
and other parts of Asia.  If we took the "Chinese way" we'd have to
make things like "America-language" which really means nothing, but
could also mean English, Spanish, Quechua some other indigenous
language.

The answer is to make each one a proper noun.  Proper nouns being
taken from native forms therefore they will be arranged in their
native fashion.


> This way you'd also avoid the question of why you took the
masculine forms
> (-in, -ski) when not only feminine (-ina, -ska) but even neuter
ones
> (*-ino, -sko) are available.
>
> (And, actually, the Slavic -in- suffix is just another
> adjective-forming  suffix. It does not automatically refer to
people.)


"-in" is not there as a suffix.  It's there because the whole form
was taken to form the name.

A part of entry under "fut" seems to be under "futon".

Compound words like hatifxkam are easily analysible but the actual
meaning might be vague: I thought at first about sauna. Of course this
may be only the first-glance difficulty.

From words with 2 consonants at the end I remember "biliard".

If "bu" makes antonyms then "bujan" doesn't mean "battle against".

> Ex you have bxlgariia, bxlgarin and bxlgarski.
> Bxlgarin is bulgar-man, and -ski is only a suffix of adj., so one
> could loan "bxlgar" for "Bulgarian" (adj.) and have bxlgarxren and
> bxlgarxsek. Another loanword could be bxlgariia.

We should _most definitely not_ do it the Esperanto way (described in the
bottom half of http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/s.html). We should
do it the Chinese way: Bulgar-land, Bulgar-man, Bulgar-language...
completely regular and predictable.

This way you'd also avoid the question of why you took the masculine forms
(-in, -ski) when not only feminine (-ina, -ska) but even neuter ones
(*-ino, -sko) are available.

(And, actually, the Slavic -in- suffix is just another adjective-forming
suffix. It does not automatically refer to people.)

> [mailto:sasxsek@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dmitri Ivanov

> I've a lot of comments about the S:S dictionary, I'll post them as
time allows.
> I think that in cases where in a local language the name of person
and
> that of language distinguishes only through suffixes, one loanword
for
> both may be enough. Ex you have bxlgariia, bxlgarin and bxlgarski.
> Bxlgarin is bulgar-man, and -ski is only a suffix of adj., so one
> could loan "bxlgar" for "Bulgarian" (adj.) and have bxlgarxren and
> bxlgarxsek. Another loanword could be bxlgariia. I mean, what is
> important is the local root, and it's difficult to remember 3
words
> for every nation/country/language. I wouldn't be against rusxren,
> rusxsek and Rosia.
>
> I can see "teq" for pain; we also had it formerly, but seemingly
tong
> is more widely used.
>
> I notice that now already you are not against using 2 consonants
at
> the end of a word.

No, there aren't any words ending with clusters.  There may be some
*names* like that but because they are names, they are allowed more
flexibility.  I'm still not ruling out any possibilities right now,
but I'm still avoiding most consonant clusters except for the
consonant+glide, and the medial nasal+consonant combinations.  The
doubled <ii> and <uu> that you find in names is to force an extra
syllable so the <i> and <u> don't become semivowels /j/ and /w/
which is what they are supposed to do before another vowel.

The reason for the naming scheme is simple.  In Sasxsek, these are
not really words, but rather proper names so they are taken like
other names from the native.    Not all examples are as simple as
the Bulgarian one.  Sometimes, the nation, the ethnic group and the
language all have different labels attached.  People in the U.S. are
known as "Americans" not "United Statesians" and our language is
"English" not "American" (though its been used, even on some
dictionaries).  To futher complicate that, "American" has another
meaning referring to people of either of the American continents, so
context will have to provide the distinction.  Some nations have
mutiple languages and ethnic groups so each one in S:S: is treated
as a separate entity.  It is still possible to something like "seko
iu li rasiix" (language of Russia) or "rasiixri seko"  (Russian [the
country] language) if you want to shift the focus a bit, but the
proper names are still there.

All  names are based upon pronunciation, rather than orthography so
they are intented to be a close to the native as the phonology will
allow.

Hi,
I've a lot of comments about the S:S dictionary, I'll post them as
time allows.
I think that in cases where in a local language the name of person and
that of language distinguishes only through suffixes, one loanword for
both may be enough. Ex you have bxlgariia, bxlgarin and bxlgarski.
Bxlgarin is bulgar-man, and -ski is only a suffix of adj., so one
could loan "bxlgar" for "Bulgarian" (adj.) and have bxlgarxren and
bxlgarxsek. Another loanword could be bxlgariia. I mean, what is
important is the local root, and it's difficult to remember 3 words
for every nation/country/language. I wouldn't be against rusxren,
rusxsek and Rosia.

I can see "teq" for pain; we also had it formerly, but seemingly tong
is more widely used.

I notice that now already you are not against using 2 consonants at
the end of a word.

Swasti!

Great.

> FIAT LINGUA!

:-D

--- In sasxsek@yahoogroups.com, <li_sasxsek@...> wrote:
>
> > [mailto:sasxsek@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Marjanovic
>
> > Ouch. Language death the quick way.
>
> I don't see any effect on Sasxsek since I haven't been working on it
> much lately.  The backups will be fine for it, and I had current
> versions of the databases posted online anyway.
>
> Some of my other projects have definitely been affected, and a
> couple of them have been completely lost.  I found the Deini font,
> but I'm still searching for the keyboard drivers.  My loglang and
> all the research I've put into it have been lost.

I plugged in my old drive in the hopes of trying some data recovery
software on it, and suddenly last night it spontaneously started
working again.  I've spent most of the past day backing up the data so
I don't lose it again.  Anyway, it looks like I got back the past 6-8
months worth of my conlang work so there won't be much need to play
catchup.  The impact on Sasxsek was minimal anyway because I have most
of the material posted online, which is effectively a backup.


FIAT LINGUA!

> [mailto:sasxsek@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Marjanovic

> Ouch. Language death the quick way.

I don't see any effect on Sasxsek since I haven't been working on it
much lately.  The backups will be fine for it, and I had current
versions of the databases posted online anyway.

Some of my other projects have definitely been affected, and a
couple of them have been completely lost.  I found the Deini font,
but I'm still searching for the keyboard drivers.  My loglang and
all the research I've put into it have been lost.

Ouch. Language death the quick way.

Unfortunately, I came home from work the other night only to find out
the hard drive in my main computer had crashed. I'm still trying to
get my computer loaded up with what I need to give me back my minimum
functionality, but the only backup I could find was a DVD from last
July so any work done on my conlangs after that has likely been lost.
I'm still looking to see what I can salvage, and really hoping I
have backups of the Deini fonts and keyboard drivers.

I really don't think this will have too much of an effect on Sasxsek
because I haven't been doing much with it anyway though I may have
lost some of the translations that I was working on.

duvxkilxbatiti nan felis bonu gi fo.


------------------------------
deinx nxtxr / Dana Nutter

LI SASXSEK LATIS.
http://www.nutter.net/sasxsek

NOVO dinu 29,12,2007
--------------------

It's been a while since the last update, but that's mainly because
there hasn't been much to report.  Not much has been done lately
because of other demands on my time, and other conlang projects
(for those interested:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Dana_Nutter_Conlangs/).


Orthographic/Phonological Change
................................
<W> and <Y> are now removed from the orthography completely.  They
have been replaced by <U> and <I> respectively.  The documentation
has been updated to reflect this.  Please let me know if you see
anything I missed.  Now that these two letters are free, I'm
thinking there may be another use for them.

------------------------------
deinx nxtxr / Dana Nutter

LI SASXSEK LATIS.
http://www.nutter.net/sasxsek

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the sasxsek
group.

   File        : /Member Surveys/Florent Garet
   Uploaded by : sasxsek <li_sasxsek@...>
   Description :

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sasxsek/files/Member%20Surveys/Florent%20Garet

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

sasxsek <li_sasxsek@...>

I've been considering the removal of <W> and <Y> from the
orthography and just using <U> and <I> since the rules call for
diphthongization anyway.  I can't see any reason for keeping them
except for traditional conventions that only apply to a few
languages.  Without them, the system will be more phonemic.  Freeing
them up could leave them open to other uses like transcribing names
from other languages that have [y] [1] etc.

Any comments?

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the sasxsek
group.

   File        : /Member Surveys/Stephanie Silver
   Uploaded by : sasxsek <li_sasxsek@...>
   Description :

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sasxsek/files/Member%20Surveys/Stephanie%20Silver

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

sasxsek <li_sasxsek@...>

This is just a minor policy change for the list., but Spanish has been
added to the languages acceptable for posting to this list.  I'm still
far from fluent, but I think I know enough that I can at least
moderate posts with help from readily available reference materials.
I believe there are also a couple of Hispanophones members already.

FWIW: I'm also in the process of creating Spanish materials, so if
anyone wants to help or even proofread what I have done, any help is
appreciated.

Over time, I'm hoping to include more languages so we can encourage
participation by a more diverse group of people.

NOVO dinu 15,7,2007
-------------------

Website
.......
* The website was getting just too difficult to manage, so I removed
the language description pages and reorganized the site.  The language
description and other documents will continue to be published in PDF
format.  I am going to leave the searchable dictionary because it is
still very useful for quick word lookups.  The main reason for this is
to make it easier to accomdate languages other than English on the
site.  I'm finding it much easier to just create PDF's and post them
as they are updated.  It gives me much more control over the format,
and allows readers to easily download and read them at their own pace.

Logo
....
* It looks like the blue "Earth" symbol previously mentioned is here
to stay.


Other Languages
...............
* Now that I'm managing to organize things a bit better, I'm beginning
to work on reference materials for other languages too.  The Esperanto
materials are still underway, but I'm also working on Spanish and just
begun a German version.  I expect to also follow that with some other
languages like French or Russian since I have some familiarity with
them as well.  I'd really like to find someone that could work with me
to create materials in some other popular languages like Chinese,
Arabic or Japanese.

------------------------------
deinx nxtxr / Dana Nutter

LI SASXSEK LATIS.
http://www.nutter.net/sasxsek

NOVO
dinu 15,6,2007
-------------

Logo
....
*  I've been toying with an idea for a flag and/or logo so you
will now see it on the website where the small picture of Earth
used to be.  The logo is simply a circle with a cross inside
which is a known symbol meaning "Earth".  The flag will simply
be the symbol in white on a blue background.  After all, Earth
is the "blue planet".  I figured that Esperanto has their green
star, and most languages are frequently represented by flags on
signs, websites, etc. so Sasxsek would need a recognizable
symbol to look for as well.


Changes
.......
* Rearrangement of the single-vowel particles for better
recognition. This is strictly cosmetic.  They are expected to be
very infrequently used anyway.

	 A -> O = (vocative)
	 O -> E = (nominative)
	 U -> A = (accusative)

* Since there are no CV words that use E, I've decided to
reserve this for some other miscellanous particles.  For right
now, the only one will be YE for the emphatic (formerly AI).
These particles, like qualifiers will directly precede the
headword.   I'm also thinking of maybe a focus particle to
provide some type of alternative to moving focus words to the
beginning of the sentence.

* Now that AI is no longer used, it will be used as an
exclamatory marker. (This is not yet documented)


* The Esperanto materials are still on hold due to other
priorities.


* JU: This new preposition is used to mark the instrumental
case.  Previously SU performed this function, but now SU
strictly means "via, through, trans-", etc.

* KUA: This new conjunction functions effectively as a relative
pronoun.

	 ren kua ves hinu kizi kamiz bev bira.
	 The guy, who is wearing a red shirt, is drinking beer.

* The ampersand (&), the generic currency marker previously
announced now has a root assigned, "cen" /tSen/.  This word can
be used in place of the name of any currency to indicate the
main local unit of currency, or any other currency unit that is
otherwise understood. It's sort of like "buck", "quid" or any
other similar term but not as informal, nor it is tied to a
specific countries currency.

	 "100i &" (heki cen) can be "100
dollars/euros/pounds/yen/etc."

	 "heki cen" can also be shortened to "100&" (no space)
but still spoken the same, so remember the "-i" attached to the
number.


* More consonant combinations:  Expect /ts/ and /dz/ in
medial position to be added soon.  These rules are going to be
relaxed in small increments to accomodate a bigger vocabulary
over time but changes will be delayed as much as possible so as
to minimize the most difficult cluster combinations.


* A few more examples of lexical changes (but not all).

	 (new)  ->  pitsa  = pizza
	 co, ci ->  go, gi  = each (one), every
	 savas  ->  jan  = battle, fight
	 ai  ->  ye  = (provides word
emphasis)

While we're on that subject.  With the new phonemes, and the
relaxing of some phonotactical rules, the vocabulary is
undergoing an overhaul so expect quite a few changes.  Those
listed above are just a few examples.


------------------------------
deinx nxtxr / Dana Nutter

LI SASXSEK LATIS.
http://www.nutter.net/sasxsek

> [mailto:sasxsek@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Marjanovic

> > The suffixes are there as building blocks. To keep the
> > vocabulary as small as possible, the words will need to have
> > broader meanings.  Because of those broad meanings, there is
a
> > need for some way to refine the meanings without being too
> > verbose so the suffixes are there.
>
> But... if you use vocabulary instead of grammar, I think you
> make a net
> bargain, at least concerning ease of learning.
>
> >> Also, remember the general warnings about agglutinative
> >> conlangs:
>
> My main point was that the meanings of -IB/-IF could over
> time become as
> unpredictable as those of the E-o <-igi>/<-i^gi>.

I know, and that's why I orginally avoided the situation but I
needed to make the derivatives distinguishable across the board.
The use of "-if" for both does work in English but only because
we have a bloated vocabulary to pick up differences in the uses
of equivalent suffixes like "-ify" (where -IF came from in the
first place) or "-ize" which have similarly have dual uses based
upon whether they are used transitively or not.  I've already
seen where one person has mistaken this for some type of
ergative structure which it wasn't intended to be.

> > but don't want to have to resort to adding more
> > lexicals to get the job done if it can be avoided.
>
> I think a word is easier to learn than a suffix.

It's only one more suffix, of which there aren't that many to
start with and it ultimately could save the need for hundred or
thousands of other words.  If it's really an issue then a
student could just learn whole words like "sapife" for "teacher"
and "sapibe" for student.

> > Anyway, for the most part, the Mandarin idea of dropping
> > unneccesary morphemes will apply to Sasxsek in most cases.
If
> > you want to say something like "teach person" it would be
> > alright as long as contextually it's known whether this is
the
> > person doin the teaching or the person being taught,
>
> Easy: the latter is the learn-person. Which, in fact, it is
> in Mandarin,
> almost literally: xue2sheng -- xue2 = learn, sheng1 = hm...
"born" or
> something... apparently expressing that the person is young
> for honorific
> purposes.

The problem with something like "learn person" is that we are
dealing with a lot of different background too.  "learn person"
could be interpreted as "the person I learn from" or "a person
who learns" without any marker to make the role clear.
Therefore -IB and -IF now play out two ways with a word like
"sap" to mean "to come to know (=learn)" and "to cause to know
(=teach, inform)".  This economizes on roots because from "know"
we can derive "teach" and "learn".  We also now have "mat" (=to
be dead), "matif" (=to kill) and "matib" (=to die) which also
would have been confused without distinct endings.

I do agree that we don't want to flood the system with suffixes
because there is a need to learn when and how each one
functions.  I'm more concerned with explaining "-o" than any of
the others.  The closest I've found in any natural language
would be the Chinese "-zi" suffix, but the usage still isn't
exactly parallel, and in English it could be "-age, -oid" and
even be "one" as in "kizo" (="red one").

> > The affricates /tS/=<c> and /dZ/=<j> have already been
added.
> > /ts/ and /dz/ would be considered clusters
>
> I only talk about pronunciation. If /ts~dz/ will be allowed,
> /tS~dZ/ should
> not be allowed in the same places within a word, because
> plenty of people
> would pronounce them the same. That's all.

That's what the plan was, so it looks like we were saying the
same thing.


> > It probably will happen. I'm stalling because it's low on
the
> > priority list right now.  These changes do take quite a bit
of
> > work with all the documentation that needs to be updated.
There
> > have been many changes in the past 2-3 weeks so there's been
a
> > lot to change.
>
> Sorry. Do take your time.

No worries.  A period of unemployment that ran much longer than
expected gave me some extra time to devote to this, but now I'm
back to working again so expect slower progress as I'm now back
to where I'll be lucky to get in a couple of hours here and
there.  And now that Spring is here, this will have to compete
for time with my outdoor activities (I really need to get a
round of golf in soon.)

> The suffixes are there as building blocks. To keep the
> vocabulary as small as possible, the words will need to have
> broader meanings.  Because of those broad meanings, there is a
> need for some way to refine the meanings without being too
> verbose so the suffixes are there.

But... if you use vocabulary instead of grammar, I think you make a net
bargain, at least concerning ease of learning.

>> Also, remember the general warnings about agglutinative
>> conlangs:

My main point was that the meanings of -IB/-IF could over time become as
unpredictable as those of the E-o <-igi>/<-i^gi>.

> but don't want to have to resort to adding more
> lexicals to get the job done if it can be avoided.

I think a word is easier to learn than a suffix.

> Anyway, for the most part, the Mandarin idea of dropping
> unneccesary morphemes will apply to Sasxsek in most cases.  If
> you want to say something like "teach person" it would be
> alright as long as contextually it's known whether this is the
> person doin the teaching or the person being taught,

Easy: the latter is the learn-person. Which, in fact, it is in Mandarin,
almost literally: xue2sheng -- xue2 = learn, sheng1 = hm... "born" or
something... apparently expressing that the person is young for honorific
purposes.

> The affricates /tS/=<c> and /dZ/=<j> have already been added.
> /ts/ and /dz/ would be considered clusters

I only talk about pronunciation. If /ts~dz/ will be allowed, /tS~dZ/ should
not be allowed in the same places within a word, because plenty of people
would pronounce them the same. That's all.

> It probably will happen. I'm stalling because it's low on the
> priority list right now.  These changes do take quite a bit of
> work with all the documentation that needs to be updated.  There
> have been many changes in the past 2-3 weeks so there's been a
> lot to change.

Sorry. Do take your time.

li [David Marjanovic] mi tulis la

> > * New suffix -IB.  This is actually a split of the -IF
suffix.
> > Due to some big abiguity issues with -IF, this new suffix is
> > being added to distinguish "causing" and "becoming".  Now,
it's
> > clear what "sapif" means ("to cause to know" = "teach"),
with
> > it's counterpart being "sapib" ("to come to know" =
"learn"),
> > and derivative words will not be a problem any more.
>
> Why have all those suffixes in the first place? They'll be
> hard to learn for
> most people -- of the big world languages, I can think of one
> that has a
> causative (Arabic) and none that has an incohative (but I
> don't know enough
> about Arabic). I guess they are one of the last reminiscences
> to Esperanto.
> I think you should drop them in favor of verbs that mean
> "cause" (or just
> "make") and "become".

The suffixes are there as building blocks. To keep the
vocabulary as small as possible, the words will need to have
broader meanings.  Because of those broad meanings, there is a
need for some way to refine the meanings without being too
verbose so the suffixes are there.


> Also, remember the general warnings about agglutinative
conlangs:
> http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/#e,
> http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/q.html,
> http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/u.html.

I'm very familar with that site, and I have corresponded breifly
with Justin Rye after I contacted him to complement the job he
did on it.  He did take a quick look at Sasxsek.  His only
criticisms were minor (even by his own admission).  Basically
the usual thing about X for /@/, but also mentioned something
about the prepositional marker which is something I'm still
thinking of removing in favor of a more isolating format like
"tu hin u" (at interior of) instead of "(tu)hinu" (inside).

> > sapife = teacher
> > sapibe = learner, student

This is originally what prompted the separation of inchoative
and causative.  As a verb, transitivity does tend to make it
easy to figure out but when compounding with other parts there
is still some ambiguity. I figured there is a very strong need
to distinguish not just "teach" and "learn" but also "teacher"
from "student", but don't want to have to resort to adding more
lexicals to get the job done if it can be avoided.

> Why not "make-know person" and "become-know person"? That's
the usual
> Chinese approach (though not to these particular examples). I
> don't see why
> an intl auxlang should be any less analytic than Mandarin.
> Word stress is
> fixed, so there shouldn't be any ambiguities.

Even in Mandarin though the morephemes for "make" and "become"
could be considered affixes.  "Person" is also too vague, as the
purpose of "-e" could be a thing as well as a person, though a
thing is more likely to be "-us" (Now that there are a few more
legal diphthongs, I'm thinking about changing this too; maybe
"-ue" or "-ie"?).  And, yes there is an overlap between "-e" and
"-o" with statives.

Anyway, for the most part, the Mandarin idea of dropping
unneccesary morphemes will apply to Sasxsek in most cases.  If
you want to say something like "teach person" it would be
alright as long as contextually it's known whether this is the
person doin the teaching or the person being taught, but the
building blocks are still there to add precision when needed.


> > * More consonant combinations:  Expect /ts/ and /dz/ in
> > medial position to be added soon.
>
> As long as that's not in addition to /tS~dZ/, that's fine.

The affricates /tS/=<c> and /dZ/=<j> have already been added.
/ts/ and /dz/ would be considered clusters, even though they are
probably going to be affricated in speech.  Because of that they
would only be used medially and careful vocabulary planning
could avoid confusion.  I don't expect to use them in the init
position, and may use them as a final in a few rare cases if at
all.  This is just the start of several clusters that are likely
to be added. Like I also mentioned, others are being considered
like /ks/, /st/, /sp/.  I'm also probably going to make a pass
through the lexicon and create a few more exclusive relationsips
between consonant pairs that are highly likely to be mistaken
like P/F and B/V.


> > * Under consideration.
> >
> > + Dropping the pejorative and ameliorative (-IH, -IQ)
> > suffixes is also still being contemplated.  Either they will
be
> > dropped in favor of some type of qualifier, or not.
>
> Just do it :-)

It probably will happen. I'm stalling because it's low on the
priority list right now.  These changes do take quite a bit of
work with all the documentation that needs to be updated.  There
have been many changes in the past 2-3 weeks so there's been a
lot to change.

> * New suffix -IB.  This is actually a split of the -IF suffix.
> Due to some big abiguity issues with -IF, this new suffix is
> being added to distinguish "causing" and "becoming".  Now, it's
> clear what "sapif" means ("to cause to know" = "teach"), with
> it's counterpart being "sapib" ("to come to know" = "learn"),
> and derivative words will not be a problem any more.

Why have all those suffixes in the first place? They'll be hard to learn for
most people -- of the big world languages, I can think of one that has a
causative (Arabic) and none that has an incohative (but I don't know enough
about Arabic). I guess they are one of the last reminiscences to Esperanto.
I think you should drop them in favor of verbs that mean "cause" (or just
"make") and "become".

Also, remember the general warnings about agglutinative conlangs:
http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/#e,
http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/q.html,
http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/u.html.

> sapife = teacher
> sapibe = learner, student

Why not "make-know person" and "become-know person"? That's the usual
Chinese approach (though not to these particular examples). I don't see why
an intl auxlang should be any less analytic than Mandarin. Word stress is
fixed, so there shouldn't be any ambiguities.

> * More consonant combinations:  Expect /ts/ and /dz/ in
> medial position to be added soon.

As long as that's not in addition to /tS~dZ/, that's fine.

> * Under consideration.
>
> + Dropping the pejorative and ameliorative (-IH, -IQ)
> suffixes is also still being contemplated.  Either they will be
> dropped in favor of some type of qualifier, or not.

Just do it :-)