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ditransitive verbs: he called me a friend   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #125 of 332 |
Re: [saweli] ditransitive verbs: he called me a friend

I thought of an A/P/F verb, too. (I missed writing in this notation. :-) )
But I think it is not adequate, because there is no change implied in
the action calling somebody a friend. Naming things, seeing things,
thinking of things is "Focusing".

Another example:
"He heard her." has "heard" as an A/F verb (please correct me if I'm wrong).
"He heard her in their garden." as well. But "in the garden" has two
possible different meanings.
"He heard her while she was in their garden." - This is the
interpretation Ram always used - the only one that can be expressed in
Saweli.
"He heard her believing that she was in their garden." - This is the way
the "He called me a friend" sentence works, and Saweli cannot encompass
its meaning (as eloquently as it uses to be).

I will think more thorrowly about this and will post it later.

Stefo



MorphemeAddict@... schrieb:
>
> In a message dated 5/13/2007 1:10:20 PM Central Daylight Time,
> sts@... writes:
>
>
>> you made me think and remember an old issue of saweli (since when it
>> used to be katanda). my "stupid" question has always been: how should
>> one adequately say "he called me a friend". i think i have a solution
>> now, and i would like to know what you think of it.
>>
>> the part of the sentence "he called me" (or "he named me", "he labeled
>> me") actually changes it's part of speech from "sentence" to
>> "preposition". "a friend" is the argument of this preposition.
>>
>> (end of solution)
>>
>> nonetheless, "he called me a friend" is an entire sentence, even though
>> it is "just" a prepositional phrase. the transitive word "called" is
>> marked to be the root of the sentence, and this fact remains even though
>> the sentence may be linked with other sentences by conjunctions, or - in
>> this case - to the argument "a friend".
>
>
> I think it could be a regular A/P/F verb, where "he" is A, "me" is P,
> and "a friend" is F. But I tend to think it would be better to use a
> case tag meaning "being, as" or just a secondary P or F. I'll have to
> look through ram's lessons to see if he has any such examples.
>
> I remember you bringing this up before. We never reached a consensus
> at the time.
>
> stevo
>
>




Sun May 13, 2007 11:56 pm

stefichjo
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In a message dated 5/13/2007 1:10:20 PM Central Daylight Time, ... I think it could be a regular A/P/F verb, where "he" is A, "me" is P, and "a friend" is F....
MorphemeAddict@...
lojbaner
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May 13, 2007
10:08 pm

I thought of an A/P/F verb, too. (I missed writing in this notation. :-) ) But I think it is not adequate, because there is no change implied in the action...
Stephan Schneider
stefichjo
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May 13, 2007
11:56 pm

In a message dated 5/13/2007 6:56:48 PM Central Daylight Time, ... "Veheb" (to hear) is P/F, not A/F. As for the second meaning you give, I don't see how that...
MorphemeAddict@...
lojbaner
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May 14, 2007
12:05 am

Ah, yes, of course P/F. Thanks. The difference between the two sentences lies the "deicticity", (I don't know how to name this a better way). "He heard her...
Stephan Schneider
stefichjo
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May 14, 2007
3:09 pm

Hi Steven, Could you please translate "he saw her in the garden"? (This would be my first Saweli sentence!) Thanks and bye, Stephan...
Stephan Schneider
stefichjo
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May 15, 2007
10:49 am

In a message dated 5/14/2007 10:09:56 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Is this more than the distinction between "He heard her (who was) in the garden" and "He...
MorphemeAddict@...
lojbaner
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May 14, 2007
3:37 pm

... (I don't ... where ... garden, the ... sentence ... is ... to ... in the ... Yes, it is yet another meaning. Hm... I can imagine four different ...
stefichjo
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May 15, 2007
9:41 am

In a message dated 5/15/2007 4:41:16 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Not precisely, but rather it's the phrasing you gave before that that I don't understand. ...
MorphemeAddict@...
lojbaner
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May 15, 2007
11:44 am

Another English sentence is: "He heard her singing in the garden." This can mean both "He heard that she was singing in the garden." and "He heard her while...
Stephan Schneider
stefichjo
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May 15, 2007
12:12 pm

I though English can work this way. :-) Let's try in Esperanto: "Li aŭdis ŝin en la ĝardeno." or "Li aŭdis ŝin enĝardene." can mean both "Li aŭdis ŝin...
Stephan Schneider
stefichjo
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May 15, 2007
12:24 pm

In a message dated 5/15/2007 5:49:38 AM Central Daylight Time, ... There are at least two ways to translate this, depending on the sense. 1) He saw her and...
MorphemeAddict@...
lojbaner
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May 15, 2007
12:02 pm

In a message dated 5/15/2007 7:12:41 AM Central Daylight Time, ... I don't think "He heard that she was singing in the garden" is a good paraphrase of "He...
MorphemeAddict@...
lojbaner
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May 15, 2007
12:25 pm

One ambiguity might be resolved, using "you" and "your": I heard you singing... I heard your singing... And yes, I didn't paraphrased correctly. I just wanted...
Stephan Schneider
stefichjo
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May 15, 2007
12:46 pm

In a message dated 5/15/2007 7:24:13 AM Central Daylight Time, ... I don't think the second version means the same as the first three. In fact, I don't think...
MorphemeAddict@...
lojbaner
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May 16, 2007
12:22 am

Why do you distinguish between mental and sensory verbs? Hm. So apparently we have indeed different grammatical views here... But: How would you make the...
Stephan Schneider
stefichjo
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May 17, 2007
12:31 pm

In a message dated 5/15/2007 7:46:42 AM Central Daylight Time, ... I think the second interpretation adds an evaluation of the speaker's perception or attitude...
MorphemeAddict@...
lojbaner
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May 16, 2007
12:25 am

They are both written in the same way in English, therefore it is not inferrable. But in English it is not inferable if "he heard the girl singing in the ...
Stephan Schneider
stefichjo
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May 17, 2007
12:22 pm

In a message dated 5/15/2007 7:46:42 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Is the second one an example of what he might say as a result of a dream or hallucination,...
MorphemeAddict@...
lojbaner
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May 16, 2007
12:29 am

Correct. It could have been a dream or a hallucination. Or just a misinterpretation of what he saw. In either case, it is his point of view only. Many words...
Stephan Schneider
stefichjo
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May 17, 2007
12:30 pm

In a message dated 5/17/2007 7:31:00 AM Central Daylight Time, ... It seems more like they introduce the judgement/view/subjectivity of the *subject*. stevo...
MorphemeAddict@...
lojbaner
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May 17, 2007
1:04 pm

In http://www.eskimo.com/~ram/lexical_semantics.html#S15_5 Ram states that As we discussed earlier ...
Stephan Schneider
stefichjo
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May 17, 2007
1:37 pm

In a message dated 5/17/2007 7:31:20 AM Central Daylight Time, ... stefo, "Li auxdis la knabinon engxardena" seems really weird to me. Does it mean "as if she...
MorphemeAddict@...
lojbaner
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May 17, 2007
1:14 pm

Yes. "as if she were in the garden". And yes, it is weird. I ran out of un-weird examples, sorry. :-) And yes, "ni nomis lin nova amiko" is a good example. So,...
Stephan Schneider
stefichjo
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May 17, 2007
1:23 pm
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