Mary:

>I wonder why you use the term `negative' feedback loop?
>Having been a control engineer, I recall that we always called these
>things `feedback' loops, without the term `negative'.

I borrowed this terminology mainly from Electronics and Biology but
you are right, I am not sure that it is used in process control.

The distinction is important because each one leads to very
different behaviors:

	 negative feedback -- asymptotically controls
	 or adjusts one or more variables,

as opposed to:

	 "positive feedback", which exponential grows variables

In Electronics, we try to avoid "positive loops" because they
tend to burn transistors and chips.  In Biology, most homeostatic
or autonomic controls are based on negative feedback as well:
control of sugars, proteins, enzymes, etc.  But in Finance we
like positive feedback loops with saturation:  IPO Stock markets
in 2000.

Senge has some nice archetypes for feedback as related to people
in "The 5th Discipline".


> I think there is an additional reason why SCRUM works so well.
> There is a great book by Barry Oshry called "Seeing Systems"
> which discusses how people generally do not see themselves in
> relationship to the whole or in relationship with other groups in
> the whole.  What a SCRUM meeting does is force everyone to consider
> the reality of others.

Great point.

> LCI recommends that these `planners', as crew chiefs are called,
> hold a `Planner' meeting each week and commit to each
> other what their crews will get done the following week. This is
> very similar to the `Scrum of Scrums'.
[snip]
> First, commitments are made between planners, and people honor the
> commitments they make to each other. etc.
[snip]
> Second, variability is removed because each crew knows that it can
> count on the previous crew to be done with prerequisite work, and
> that it will have the materials and tools that it needs.

Interesting.  Those are some of the same claims that we make
in Scrum in relation to the "Scrum of Scrums" process,

- Mike

FYI:

Two articles from the last week that were linked in the ComputerWorld
daily news.

XP, Scrum join forces:
http://www.computerworld.com/itresources/rcstory/0,4167,KEY11_STO69183,0
0.html


Agile programming techniques spark interest:
http://www.computerworld.com/itresources/rcstory/0,4167,KEY11_STO69079,0
0.html

Thanks ... I hate being interviewed!
Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 2:03 PM
To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Two articles in ComputerWorld


FYI:

Two articles from the last week that were linked in the ComputerWorld
daily news.

XP, Scrum join forces:
http://www.computerworld.com/itresources/rcstory/0,4167,KEY11_STO69183,0
0.html


Agile programming techniques spark interest:
http://www.computerworld.com/itresources/rcstory/0,4167,KEY11_STO69079,0
0.html







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-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 1:37 PM
To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Two articles in ComputerWorld

Thanks ... I hate being interviewed!
Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 2:03 PM
To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Two articles in ComputerWorld


FYI:

Two articles from the last week that were linked in the ComputerWorld
daily news.

XP, Scrum join forces:
http://www.computerworld.com/itresources/rcstory/0,4167,KEY11_STO69183,0
0.html


Agile programming techniques spark interest:
http://www.computerworld.com/itresources/rcstory/0,4167,KEY11_STO69079,0
0.html







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It is great PR, so, yes, great going.

But, boy, did those articles lack substance.  I didn't read anything that
would compell me to change what I am doing today.

As I read the increasing amount of press on Agile methods, I am increasing
disallusioned by the quality of the what is being said.  How do we get these
writers to understand what is really going on here?  That it is not simply a
bunch of consultants that have figured out how to sell something new, but
rather a fundamental shift in the way that software is being written and
ultimately a shift in how software driven businesses will operate.

Again, it is a great start, but there so much more substance to report on.
How do we get that out there?

Lowell

================
Lowell Lindstrom
Object Mentor, Inc | www.objectmentor.com | 1-800-338-6716
lindstrom@...
Office: 847-573-1565 x20   Fax:  847-573-1565
Cell: 847-732-9330

Right on the head!! Well said!!! I couldn't believe it when the
Computerworld editor told me that everyone at Giga said, "Well, we already
do that, same old stuff, some interesting ideas, but..." Reminds me of
Rational and saying that RUP is agile. They are definitely lightening RUP,
which is always good, but it missed the shift to agile to which you refer. I
thought I was pretty blunt at the Giga conference in a panel discussion, but
even with that they missed it.

I'm working on a new speech which I'll call, "Well, we already that that",
and see if I can get any more direct. However, I still get most of Scrum
implementations where the current project has failed; people seem to operate
better in desperation rather than with foresight.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: Lowell Lindstrom [mailto:lindstrom@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 9:09 AM
To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld


It is great PR, so, yes, great going.

But, boy, did those articles lack substance.  I didn't read anything that
would compell me to change what I am doing today.

As I read the increasing amount of press on Agile methods, I am increasing
disallusioned by the quality of the what is being said.  How do we get these
writers to understand what is really going on here?  That it is not simply a
bunch of consultants that have figured out how to sell something new, but
rather a fundamental shift in the way that software is being written and
ultimately a shift in how software driven businesses will operate.

Again, it is a great start, but there so much more substance to report on.
How do we get that out there?

Lowell

================
Lowell Lindstrom
Object Mentor, Inc | www.objectmentor.com | 1-800-338-6716
lindstrom@...
Office: 847-573-1565 x20   Fax:  847-573-1565
Cell: 847-732-9330





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Ken, I presume that you mean "the attendees at the Giga conference", rather
than "everyone at Giga"! I certainly do not subscribe to the view that Agile
methods are just the same old stuff repackaged, and neither does my
co-presenter Liz Barnett. In fact, we made that quite clear at the
presentation we gave the next day (sadly after you had already left the
conference).

I think a better point Carol could have emphasized is the tremendous
interest in Agile methods. At the time of Liz's and my presentation, we were
running two tracks, one a geek track and one a process/management track. Our
talk on Agile methods packed the room, and outdrew the geek track, which is
the inverse of what happened last year.

In part, the "we do that, same old stuff" is not what I would have focus on.
That attitude actually creates an easier sell to management, because
people's minds are already half in agreement. I think the more problematic
issue is why there is greater resistance in mainstream corporate North
America (as opposed to the UK) over the value of Agile methods. In part,
it's due to concern about the maturity of the ideas, but the greater part is
due to the (still) prevalent view that one process can fit for all roles and
all projects.

Once that view is questioned (and I think Alastair Cockburn's work really
hits home there), then the perception of Agile methods will change.

P.S. Thanks for helping make the panel (Ken Schwaber, Martin Fowler, Jeff
Bitner, Dale Churchett) a real highlight of the conference!

Uttam

--
Uttam M. Narsu
Vice President, Giga Information Group
139 Main Street, 4th Floor
Cambridge, MA   02142
617-577-4730    617-577-4906 (fax)
unarsu@... <mailto:unarsu@...>


-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 10:18 AM
To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld


Right on the head!! Well said!!! I couldn't believe it when the
Computerworld editor told me that everyone at Giga said, "Well, we already
do that, same old stuff, some interesting ideas, but..." Reminds me of
Rational and saying that RUP is agile. They are definitely lightening RUP,
which is always good, but it missed the shift to agile to which you refer. I
thought I was pretty blunt at the Giga conference in a panel discussion, but
even with that they missed it.

I'm working on a new speech which I'll call, "Well, we already that that",
and see if I can get any more direct. However, I still get most of Scrum
implementations where the current project has failed; people seem to operate
better in desperation rather than with foresight.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: Lowell Lindstrom [mailto:lindstrom@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 9:09 AM
To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld


It is great PR, so, yes, great going.

But, boy, did those articles lack substance.  I didn't read anything that
would compell me to change what I am doing today.

As I read the increasing amount of press on Agile methods, I am increasing
disallusioned by the quality of the what is being said.  How do we get these
writers to understand what is really going on here?  That it is not simply a
bunch of consultants that have figured out how to sell something new, but
rather a fundamental shift in the way that software is being written and
ultimately a shift in how software driven businesses will operate.

Again, it is a great start, but there so much more substance to report on.
How do we get that out there?

Lowell

================
Lowell Lindstrom
Object Mentor, Inc | www.objectmentor.com | 1-800-338-6716
lindstrom@...
Office: 847-573-1565 x20   Fax:  847-573-1565
Cell: 847-732-9330





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Uttam and Mike,
I know, we get so much excitement, but we're definitely at the "early
adopter" stage. Alistair Cockburn did help get an article in the Economist
(pretty mainstream, there) in late September, but that didn't seem to have
much of an impact. I really like the idea of the CEO asking the CIO to wash
the car before doing an agile project, especially since he has so much extra
time. Whew, enough sarcasm.

I think Mike has some excellent points about why people tend to dismiss
agile. I think the IT personality also plays into the picture: we want to
act like we know what we're doing, have it covered, not to worry. This has
been a pretty important cover story while we scramble to find out what
really is going on. More resistance probably arises from the number of
silver bullets that have been announced in our lifetimes; we get jaded.

I was presenting Scrum to the management of a project that was purported to
be in trouble; the technical architects understood and were all for it, the
regular project and program managers were all for pretending that they were
already doing it. I detected fear, fear of changing from something that they
knew how to work, to something that was radically different and might be
uncontrollable. I find that unless you have experienced the "agile epiphany"
it is really hard to understand.

Ross Taylor of TransCanada and I jointly wrote an article for Software
Development Magazine (to be published in June) that describes this epiphany.
I writing the article, I realized that there are several defining moments
when the people really get it:

Agile processes have several defining moments. When these happen, I know
everything is going well and  the expected benefits will result. At these
moments, tkey participants really "get it." These key participants are the
business project manager, the IT project manager, and the development
team(s). These moments include:
1. The business project manager realizing that it's ok to proceed without
all of the requirements being defined.
2. The business project manager seeing a product increment demonstrated at
the end of each of the several Sprints. They realize that their involvement
was important and had an immediate, tangible result. They also realize that
the project will be successful and deliver them something they want and
need.
3. A team member realizing that someone will help when problems occur. After
identifying an impediment or problem during a daily Scrum, either the
ScrumMaster or a fellow team member provides immediate help to him or her.
4. The IT project manager sensing teamwork after walking through a
co-located team area where pair programming is going on. The buzz, energy,
and focus are palpable.
5. The business and IT Project Managers realizing they don't have to tell
the team what to do and ensure that it does it.
The team when it realizes that no one is going to tell it what to do; the
team has to figure out what work to do on its own.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: Narsu, Uttam [mailto:UNarsu@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 10:47 AM
To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld


Ken, I presume that you mean "the attendees at the Giga conference", rather
than "everyone at Giga"! I certainly do not subscribe to the view that Agile
methods are just the same old stuff repackaged, and neither does my
co-presenter Liz Barnett. In fact, we made that quite clear at the
presentation we gave the next day (sadly after you had already left the
conference).

I think a better point Carol could have emphasized is the tremendous
interest in Agile methods. At the time of Liz's and my presentation, we were
running two tracks, one a geek track and one a process/management track. Our
talk on Agile methods packed the room, and outdrew the geek track, which is
the inverse of what happened last year.

In part, the "we do that, same old stuff" is not what I would have focus on.
That attitude actually creates an easier sell to management, because
people's minds are already half in agreement. I think the more problematic
issue is why there is greater resistance in mainstream corporate North
America (as opposed to the UK) over the value of Agile methods. In part,
it's due to concern about the maturity of the ideas, but the greater part is
due to the (still) prevalent view that one process can fit for all roles and
all projects.

Once that view is questioned (and I think Alastair Cockburn's work really
hits home there), then the perception of Agile methods will change.

P.S. Thanks for helping make the panel (Ken Schwaber, Martin Fowler, Jeff
Bitner, Dale Churchett) a real highlight of the conference!

Uttam

--
Uttam M. Narsu
Vice President, Giga Information Group
139 Main Street, 4th Floor
Cambridge, MA   02142
617-577-4730    617-577-4906 (fax)
unarsu@... <mailto:unarsu@...>


-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 10:18 AM
To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld


Right on the head!! Well said!!! I couldn't believe it when the
Computerworld editor told me that everyone at Giga said, "Well, we already
do that, same old stuff, some interesting ideas, but..." Reminds me of
Rational and saying that RUP is agile. They are definitely lightening RUP,
which is always good, but it missed the shift to agile to which you refer. I
thought I was pretty blunt at the Giga conference in a panel discussion, but
even with that they missed it.

I'm working on a new speech which I'll call, "Well, we already that that",
and see if I can get any more direct. However, I still get most of Scrum
implementations where the current project has failed; people seem to operate
better in desperation rather than with foresight.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: Lowell Lindstrom [mailto:lindstrom@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 9:09 AM
To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld


It is great PR, so, yes, great going.

But, boy, did those articles lack substance.  I didn't read anything that
would compell me to change what I am doing today.

As I read the increasing amount of press on Agile methods, I am increasing
disallusioned by the quality of the what is being said.  How do we get these
writers to understand what is really going on here?  That it is not simply a
bunch of consultants that have figured out how to sell something new, but
rather a fundamental shift in the way that software is being written and
ultimately a shift in how software driven businesses will operate.

Again, it is a great start, but there so much more substance to report on.
How do we get that out there?

Lowell

================
Lowell Lindstrom
Object Mentor, Inc | www.objectmentor.com | 1-800-338-6716
lindstrom@...
Office: 847-573-1565 x20   Fax:  847-573-1565
Cell: 847-732-9330





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My team is in the processs of our first sprint, and I am getting
inidated with requests for documentation. I, traditionally, am also
used to spending weeks and weeks up front developing a in-depth
requirements and design document.

However, using Scrum, I have not been concentrating on this detailed
of documentation. My documentation efforts have been limited to
Microsoft Project (maintain a bullet list of current tasks in sprint
and the backlog).

Yesterday I sent an email to a Scrum website about documentation. Ken
(could this possibly be Ken Schwaber the author?) responded back
telling me to do a more high-level requirements document listing out
the main objective.

Do any of you have an outline per se (or examples) of a requirements
document like this?

Based on the recent comments in ComputerWorld and elsewhere I think we have
moved forward on the multistage acceptance process with respect to agile
approaches.

1. It's impossible and will never work

Five years ago, when I presented SCRUM at ObjectWorld and elsewhere,
occassionally people would run screaming from the room (this is not a joke)
and I would often get confronted by people who said it was totally out of
the question and would never be implemented in their operation while they
were alive.

2. It may be possible but it will never work at my site.

This has been the general theme until recently, when the Agile Manifesto has
stirred the pot in a big way.

3. We are already doing it so we don't have to change.

First RUP said this, now everyone is saying it.

4. We tried it and it didn't work.

We can expect to hear a lot of this next.

5. I don't like it but I will not survive without doing it. These agile guys
have really caused a lot of trouble.

This is a ways off.

6. It's not only better, it's fun!

It takes 15-20 years to get the majority of people there and we are about 5
years into this change. Of course, the true believers (like myself) have
been saying this for years.

Jeff Sutherland

Major push on agile articles lately. A buch more have been posted at
www.informIT.com (part of Pearson Publishing ... Prentice Hall, etc.)
under Software Engineering/Agile.

Two of the articles are about Scrum:

Scrum with XP by Ken Schwaber and Kane Mar
Get Ready for Scrum! by Ken Schwaber

Kane is one of the ScrumMasters from ThoughtWorks and did an
outstanding job implementing Scrum and XP at TransCanada Pipelines
Limited in Calgary. He can be reached at scrumMaster@....

Ken Schwaber

Great article Ken!

Can one expect more information about XP@Scrum at controlchaos? :-)

Jonas


-----Original Message-----
From: kschwaber [mailto:kschwaber@...]
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 9:53 PM
To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [scrumdevelopment] More Articles


Major push on agile articles lately. A buch more have been posted at
www.informIT.com (part of Pearson Publishing ... Prentice Hall, etc.)
under Software Engineering/Agile.

Two of the articles are about Scrum:

Scrum with XP by Ken Schwaber and Kane Mar
Get Ready for Scrum! by Ken Schwaber

Kane is one of the ScrumMasters from ThoughtWorks and did an
outstanding job implementing Scrum and XP at TransCanada Pipelines
Limited in Calgary. He can be reached at scrumMaster@....

Ken Schwaber


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Good idea

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 7:29 PM
To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] More Articles


Great article Ken!

Can one expect more information about XP@Scrum at controlchaos? :-)

Jonas


-----Original Message-----
From: kschwaber [mailto:kschwaber@...]
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 9:53 PM
To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [scrumdevelopment] More Articles


Major push on agile articles lately. A buch more have been posted at
www.informIT.com (part of Pearson Publishing ... Prentice Hall, etc.)
under Software Engineering/Agile.

Two of the articles are about Scrum:

Scrum with XP by Ken Schwaber and Kane Mar
Get Ready for Scrum! by Ken Schwaber

Kane is one of the ScrumMasters from ThoughtWorks and did an
outstanding job implementing Scrum and XP at TransCanada Pipelines
Limited in Calgary. He can be reached at scrumMaster@....

Ken Schwaber


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




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Keith Ray asked me this question in the XP mailing list:

	 What makes XBreed different from Scrum
	 and different from XP?

Here is my response,

- Mike


Keith Ray wrote:
> XBreed question -- XP + Scrum...
>
> I look at Scrum (based on Schwaber/Beedle book) and the
> only 'management practice' I see different from XP is
> the Scrum Master.
>
> What makes XBreed different from Scrum and different from XP?

Keith:

Good question.  There are many things that are different
from both XP and Scrum in XBreed:

	 - XBreed has extra practices for managing several
	 concurrent projects and to achieve reuse:

		 * there are many techniques to add
		 concurrent application teams (not in XP or Scrum)
		 * there are many techniques to prioritize, manage and
		 release the "Global Backlog" (not in XP or Scrum)
		 * "Shared Backlog" (not in XP or Scrum)
		 * Scrum of Scrums (this is in Scrum as well but
		 the focus is expanded).
		 * Shared Resources Team Leader (not in XP or Scrum)
		 * Shared Resources Developers (not in XP or Scrum)
		 * Architects/Coaches that go away as the
		 team matures.  These are people that help with
		 both "process and technology", serve as mentors
		 to others and do actual work -- at least 50% of
		 their time is spent doing development.
		 We explicitly call them "architects" because
		 companies have budgets for them ;-)
		 These "architects" are very similar to XP
		 coaches but have added responsibilities:
		 they form a virtual team for the shared
		 resources as well.   (not in XP or Scrum)
		 * Integration/Testing.  There are several
		 practices to manage/communicate/release/test
		 several concurrent product lines that include
		 several concurrent applications and shared
		 resources (not in XP or Scrum)
		 * reusable components are sponsored by
		 teams that need them (not in XP or Scrum)
		 * reusable components are only created
		 when they are needed i.e. the multi-application
		 version of YAGNI (not in XP or Scrum)
		 etc.

	 - XBreed is more than a process.  It comes with
	 a framework for doing Java/servlet-based development
	 in something we call the "Enterprise Agent Network" or EAN
	 (not in XP or Scrum):

	 * Distributed agent architecture that listens and responds
	 to events in a heterogeneous cluster

	 * Agent-to-agent interactions based on the PAC
	 (Presentation-Abstraction-Control) pattern, and
	 on the MVC (Model-View-Controller) pattern for visual
	 interactions.

	 * Allows the creation of reusable components at
	 different levels:

		 workflows
		 visual components
		 business services
		 transactions
		 business objects
		 architectural services

	 * Allows the integration of several communication protocols
	 for inputs and responses:

		 HTTP
		 XML-RPC (non SOAP)
		 XML-RPC SOAP
		 MQ Series
		 JSPs

	 (EAN is not mandatory but it greatly helps to speed
	 the delivery of multiple complex applications in a Java
	 environment.)

- Mike
http://www.e-architects.com
http://www.hipaaccelerator.com
http://www.xbreed.com

** Business Opportunities.  We are, Hipaa Accelerator, the only
company with a comprehensive set of components and frameworks
to solve the HIPAA Privacy problem.  If you are a Covered Entity
or Business Associate, or you have contacts in the
healthcare industry, let's talk.  We have demos available.  We also
have great commission schedules for marketing partners.

** Also, if you are looking for jobs doing agile software development
contact us asap.  We have some very large accounts where we
will need to fill all sorts of roles (XBreed/XP/Scrum projects).

----------------------------------------------------------------
Apologize if you receive this announcement more than once.
----------------------------------------------------------------
                        CALL for PARTICIPATION

                    XP2002 - http://www.xp2002.org/

           3rd Int.l Conference on XP and Agile Processes
                       in Software Engineering

      May 26-29, 2002 - in beautiful Alghero, Sardinia, Italy

The Third International Conference on XP and Agile Processes
in Software Engineering, XP2002, is a consolidated international
forum to learn, discuss and advance the state of the art of
the theories and the practices related to Extreme Programming
and other agile techniques for software development!

The Conference Schedule includes Workshops, Tutorials, Activity
Sessions, Panels, Presentations, to accommodate the different
needs of participants:
* 6 Workshops and 23 Tutorials on every aspect of XP and other
    agile methodologies, given by world leading researchers,
* 6 invited talks from undisputed authorities of software
    engineering and agile processes, including Dave Parnas, Ken
    Schwaber and Kent Beck,
* panels and presentations of experiences and ideas,
* studies from researchers and practitioners from all over
    the World.

XP2002 WORKSHOPS are open for enrollment:
- Bringing Structure to Experience With Agile Development
- XP & Database Administration  (afternoon)
- Testing in XP
- Distributed Agile Software Development
- Experience Exchange II
- Design & Refactoring

The participation to XP2002 is limited to 300 people for space
reasons...
                          register early.

The deadline for reduced fees is April, 1, 2002.

For more information and registration see: http://www.xp2002.org
or contact:
Prof. Michele Marchesi,
Program Chair,
XP2002
michele@...

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Hi all,

Now I finally got the Scrum book back (a friend of mine has borrowed it for
ages).

The first thing I noticed was that there was a nice section about complexity
science, which is what I'm writing about in my master thesis. It will be
great to reread the book.

However, I have a question as well. Is chapter 7 (Advanced Scrum
Applications) about XBreed more than Scrum?

Regards,
Jonas

Mike has packaged all of those things into XBreed, but they are also
applicable to Scrum (or XP) as a way to get reusable components, scaling,
etc. They are general agile practices.
Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 9:04 AM
To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [scrumdevelopment] The Scrum book


Hi all,

Now I finally got the Scrum book back (a friend of mine has borrowed it for
ages).

The first thing I noticed was that there was a nice section about complexity
science, which is what I'm writing about in my master thesis. It will be
great to reread the book.

However, I have a question as well. Is chapter 7 (Advanced Scrum
Applications) about XBreed more than Scrum?

Regards,
Jonas



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Ken, Jonas:

I agree with Ken.  For many years, Scrum practitioners have done
similar things, but these practices are largely undocumented.
That's why I am writing a book on XBreed that should
be available in the fall around OOPSLA that concentrates in
large in documenting these practices as well as their integration
with known XP and Scrum practices.  My point of view, and
my experience is that these are the kind of practices that
will make agile methods scalable to the enterprise level.

In a recent post to the XP list, Kent Beck pointed out that
Agile methods were in the spotlight once again in The Economist and
asked the question:  what next?

I think going beyond one project to multiple concurrent apps is next.

To my knowledge at least Jeff, Ken, Martine Devos and I have gone
through the "multiple concurrent apps" process using Scrum in a
large scale; but there maybe many more,

- Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 11:09 AM
To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] The Scrum book


Mike has packaged all of those things into XBreed, but they are also
applicable to Scrum (or XP) as a way to get reusable components, scaling,
etc. They are general agile practices.
Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 9:04 AM
To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [scrumdevelopment] The Scrum book


Hi all,

Now I finally got the Scrum book back (a friend of mine has borrowed it for
ages).

The first thing I noticed was that there was a nice section about complexity
science, which is what I'm writing about in my master thesis. It will be
great to reread the book.

However, I have a question as well. Is chapter 7 (Advanced Scrum
Applications) about XBreed more than Scrum?

Regards,
Jonas



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Ken, Mike:
Thanks for clearing that up for me!

Mike wrote:
> That's why I am writing a book on XBreed that should
> be available in the fall around OOPSLA that concentrates in
> large in documenting these practices as well as their integration
> with known XP and Scrum practices.

Great!

Mike wrote:
> My point of view, and
> my experience is that these are the kind of practices that
> will make agile methods scalable to the enterprise level.
>
> In a recent post to the XP list, Kent Beck pointed out that
> Agile methods were in the spotlight once again in The Economist and
> asked the question:  what next?
>
> I think going beyond one project to multiple concurrent apps is next.

Is the maximum number per project reached (in that case, what is it?)? Can't
agile methodologies be used on large projects where all develop one large
system?


Jonas

Jonas Bengtsson wrote:
>Mike wrote:
>> My point of view, and
>> my experience is that these are the kind of practices that
>> will make agile methods scalable to the enterprise level.
>>
>> In a recent post to the XP list, Kent Beck pointed out that
>> Agile methods were in the spotlight once again in The Economist and
>> asked the question:  what next?
>>
>> I think going beyond one project to multiple concurrent apps is next.
>
> Is the maximum number per project reached (in that case, what is it?)?

Jonas:

Do you mean number of apps?  My record so far is 17 concurrent
applications:

	 12 have been released to production
	 5 are still under development

Jonas Bengtsson wrote:
> Can't agile methodologies be used on large projects where all
> develop one large system?

Yes, and the structure is very similar to the "multiple concurrent
apps" structure.  Ken and I briefly touched upon this in Ch. 7,
but much more can be added,

- Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 1:00 PM
To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] The Scrum book

Mike—

 

I ran an engineering group that used Scrum to manage its two main product lines. We had around 110 people doing development/testing at our largest. All were doing Scrum (or at least the less-sophisticated variation of what I would have called Scrum during that period). Most of the stuff we did turned out better because of our use of Scrum to manage that product line but it definitely wasn’t all smooth sailing. I look forward to your next book so I can learn your new techniques. Fortunately the projects I’m working on right now are all small so I can wait till OOPSLA—otherwise I’d be screaming for you to hurry up. J

 

--Mike Cohn

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 10:30 AM
To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] The Scrum book

 

Ken, Jonas:

I agree with Ken.  For many years, Scrum practitioners have done
similar things, but these practices are largely undocumented.
That's why I am writing a book on XBreed that should
be available in the fall around OOPSLA that concentrates in
large in documenting these practices as well as their integration
with known XP and Scrum practices.  My point of view, and
my experience is that these are the kind of practices that
will make agile methods scalable to the enterprise level.

In a recent post to the XP list, Kent Beck pointed out that
Agile methods were in the spotlight once again in The Economist and
asked the question:  what next?

I think going beyond one project to multiple concurrent apps is next.

To my knowledge at least Jeff, Ken, Martine Devos and I have gone
through the "multiple concurrent apps" process using Scrum in a
large scale; but there maybe many more,

- Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 11:09 AM
To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] The Scrum book


Mike has packaged all of those things into XBreed, but they are also
applicable to Scrum (or XP) as a way to get reusable components, scaling,
etc. They are general agile practices.
Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 9:04 AM
To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [scrumdevelopment] The Scrum book


Hi all,

Now I finally got the Scrum book back (a friend of mine has borrowed it for
ages).

The first thing I noticed was that there was a nice section about complexity
science, which is what I'm writing about in my master thesis. It will be
great to reread the book.

However, I have a question as well. Is chapter 7 (Advanced Scrum
Applications) about XBreed more than Scrum?

Regards,
Jonas
 

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If you are part of an agile usergroup and want to post it at the
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http://www.agilealliance.com/userGroups/index

Ken Schwaber

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 6:48 PM
To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [scrumdevelopment] slightly off-topic, but only barely

I was sent this today and it makes me think of what things would have been like if Superman had used a heavyweight process, rather than the clearly agile process he used when saving the world.

 

http://www.sentient.com/~pcm2/action_item.html

 

Apologies for going slightly off-topic but it is Friday afternoon.

 

--Mike

 

 

 

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Mike Cohn wrote:
> Apologies for going slightly off-topic but it is Friday afternoon.

--Mike

Mike:

Quite the contrary, I think it is very appropriate for this list.

Makes me wonder if we can propose to add a new hero called
"Scrum Master" :-)

Perhaps, he can change the attitude and values of "Action Item"...

- Mike