service-orientated-architecture : Message: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography (was: A RESTafarian who eschews the use of SOAP))

Every day I see a lot of publications and messages that seem unaware of the fact(?) that "the distinction between "Choreography"
and "Orchestration" had been clearly articulated".

May I ask for such clarification in this Forum?

- Michael

----- Original Message ----
From: Ashley at Metamaxim <ashley.mcneile@...>
To: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 10:05:07 PM
Subject: Re: [service-orientated-architecture] REST/SOAP and Choreography (was: A RESTafarian who eschews the use of SOAP)

Hi Anne

> I think it depends on your definition of "choreography". If you define
> choreography as the high-level model of interactions among business
> partners (as defined in the W3C Web Services Choreography
> specification), then I don't think REST vs SOAP really comes into
> play.

Yes, I was thinking of the WC3 meaning (as used in WS-CDL).

Perhaps this paper was written before the distinction between "Choreography"
and "Orchestration" had been clearly articulated.

Thanks
Ashley

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Every day I see a lot of publications and messages that seem unaware of the fact(?) that "the distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" had been...

Michael Poulin
m3poulin

Aug 24, 2008
2:42 pm

... Orchestrations describe what an overall process appears to do without specifying how any of it is implemented. I view choreography as a form of...

John Evdemon
jevdemon

Aug 26, 2008
11:10 pm

I'd go for this and make a build. Orchestrations are "fixed" in that there is a described set of steps and decisions. Choreographies, should be, more goal...

Steve Jones
jones.steveg

Aug 27, 2008
9:09 am

Folks, when I asked my question about choreography and orchestration I expected that somebody would point to a place where the difference "had been clearly...

Michael Poulin
m3poulin

Aug 27, 2008
10:01 am

Michael My take on this (as a somewhat distant observer) is that the area of dispute is not so much on the distinction between "choreography" and...

Ashley at Metamaxim
keplervic

Aug 27, 2008
11:14 am

+1, Ashley The only comment here is that "road navigation" in choreography is at the service level, i.e. it makes the service aware of who they have to...

Michael Poulin
m3poulin

Aug 27, 2008
12:03 pm

Basically I think the point is that choreography, orchestration, co-ordination, process management and all the other words are very badly defined. I wouldn't...

Steve Jones
jones.steveg

Aug 27, 2008
11:14 am

... Only when you work for the wrong company ... :) Alex -- ... Project Wrangler, SOA, Information Alchemist, UX, RESTafarian, Topic Maps...

Alexander Johannesen
shelterit

Aug 27, 2008
11:29 am

It seems to me that Orchestration / Co-ordination has a central Conductor / Co-ordinator whereas Choreography does not. Thus: - Orchestration is Autocratic -...

Alan Dean
alan_james_dean

Aug 27, 2008
12:05 pm

... I see this a lot from vendors, consultants and analysts. Scary stuff....

John Evdemon
jevdemon

Aug 27, 2008
10:55 pm

... Real scary. Did I ever tell you about the vendor near Seattle who pitched it as an 'intermediary format'?? That was a scary one too. LOL. Jeff...

jeffrschneider

Aug 28, 2008
10:49 pm

... Opinions expressed are my own. I thought guys like you liked confusion in the industry - it provides lots of consulting opportunites....

John Evdemon
jevdemon

Aug 29, 2008
9:55 am

Good to see that you've come around: http://tinyurl.com/6khvmu...

jeffrschneider

Aug 31, 2008
8:09 pm

... Not sure what your point is here. The fact that BizTalk uses BPEL as an import/export representation doesn't make it unique - many tools do this....

John Evdemon
jevdemon

Sep 1, 2008
9:03 am

My bad John, I thought that when you said "BPEL is a an orchestration language" that you meant "BPEL is an orchestration language". I'll quit taking you so...

jeffrschneider

Sep 1, 2008
3:59 pm

Be nice, Jeff. BPEL may be an "execution" language, but it has a number of shortcomings in terms of its ability to represent business processes. Many vendors...

Anne Thomas Manes
annemanes

Sep 2, 2008
2:30 pm

... I do. Indeed my experience has been that restricting yourself to the main BPEL set, i.e. facing the reality that workflow is a different thing, tends to...

Steve Jones
jones.steveg

Sep 2, 2008
5:40 pm

Anne brings up some great points below. BPEL, unfortuneately, was not originally intended for business process serialization. Despite this omission, I tried...

John Evdemon
jevdemon

Sep 2, 2008
5:41 pm

... As is normal, computer scientists are taking words that already exist, and trying to make them apply in a particular context. People, who know and use ...

Gregg Wonderly
w5ggw

Aug 28, 2008
10:48 pm

Michael, It's important to distinguish the definition of terms from specifications that define standard ways to implement the terms. "Choreography" and...

Anne Thomas Manes
annemanes

Aug 27, 2008
12:34 pm

Oh yes, IT does not dance, it mostly goes cap in hand to the business in our days... :-) - Michael ... From: Steve Jones <jones.steveg@...> To:...

Michael Poulin
m3poulin

Aug 27, 2008
12:04 pm

When we use terms, we, actually, refer to the meaning of the terms. The confusion with choreography and orchestration comes exactly from the extreme similarity...

Michael Poulin
m3poulin

Aug 27, 2008
3:07 pm

Good points. In choreography, the individual parties are responsible for coordinating their own activities. In orchestration, an orchestration engine is...

Anne Thomas Manes
annemanes

Aug 27, 2008
10:55 pm

Interesting thread with lots of good discussion. At what point in an architecture definition, or in a design, does the distinction between choreography and...

Rob Eamon
reamon943

Aug 27, 2008
4:04 pm

... Doubtful. This would create massive problems, especially if an architect is using such terms without clarification. A lot of architects I know tend to...

John Evdemon
jevdemon

Aug 27, 2008
11:39 pm

Hello to all.� I know �that there are many big architects in this list, but never this of but to recommend a good book.� I recommend the reading of this...

Jorge Infante Osorio
jorgeio@...

Aug 29, 2008
9:55 am

Orchestration and choreography according to Erl is definitely one possible path. The point remains, however, that when using particular terms in a given...

Rob Eamon
reamon943

Aug 29, 2008
5:13 pm

I have started this discussion and, I think, we have got the understanding of service choreography vs. orchestration. I have not read those Chapters (mentioned...

Michael Poulin
m3poulin

Aug 29, 2008
1:47 pm

To bring this whole thing back to the REST vs. SOAP issue: All the approaches to choreography that I have seen, including but not limited to WS-CDL, require...

Ashley at Metamaxim
keplervic

Aug 30, 2008
11:31 am

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