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Yefim Natis is sure that ""SOA is integration"   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #12189 of 13948 |
Re: [service-orientated-architecture] Re: Yefim Natis is sure that ""SOA is integration"

What is the difference between integration and interaction?

Maybe this is the way to finally find if SOA is about integration or not. When we gather services into the orchestrated process, it this an integration or interaction?

I would agree with "integration strategy is a side-effect of applying SO principles at the enterprise level" after we find the answer to my question above.

To the " Side note: Redundancy isn't always bad and eliminating it isn't always the right course of action. Generally speaking, eliminating redundancy is good but we must be careful about blindly following that principle" - I agree with this in the following interpretation:
- if we deal with technical business services that implement business functional services (functions, features, processes), access to particular business service/function/feature has to be guaranteed in the terms of the business operating model. To provide such 'guarantee' we, probably have to have a redundant access to those business service/function/feature implementation. It is not exactly the same as redundant applications that perform the same things (in different ways) but rather several services that have capability to support the same business functionality, on demand. This is the concept; how to implement it - is the art of design.

- Michael


From: Rob Eamon <reamon@...>
To: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 4:07:48 PM
Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] Re: Yefim Natis is sure that ""SOA is integration"

All good points. SOA is most definitely about architecture.

While I wouldn't say "SOA is integration" per se, I'd say that
integration is one of the core values of the SO approach. Services
have 1 or more interfaces. Interaction with services is via those
(and only those) interfaces. Services (and other components such as
service clients) exist in independent ownership domains. Those
characteristics are the heart of integration. SO demands that one
consider integration up front rather than as an afterthought.

IMO, integration strategy is a side-effect of applying SO principles
at the enterprise level.

Side note: Redundancy isn't always bad and eliminating it isn't
always the right course of action. Generally speaking, eliminating
redundancy is good but we must be careful about blindly following
that principle.

-Rob

--- In service-orientated- architecture@ yahoogroups. com, "Anne Thomas
Manes" <atmanes@... > wrote:
>
> While I agree with the last line, I disagree with the leading one:
> "SOA is integration" . Many organizations mistakenly percieve SOA as
> an integration strategy. But it is not. SOA is about architecture.
> To achieve SOA, you must rearchitect your systems. You must remove
> the deadwood. Every organization has too much stuff -- too many
> redundant applications and data sources. SOA is about cleaning
> house. You will not simplify your environment, reduce costs, and
> gain agility until you reduce that redundancy.
>
> Anne




Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:51 pm

m3poulin
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Message #12189 of 13948 |
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How "SOA is integration" correcponds to "SOA is less a technology than a way to dependably extract business value from technology. It is a journey, and it...
Michael Poulin
m3poulin
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Dec 17, 2008
4:09 pm

What is the difference between integration and interaction? Maybe this is the way to finally find if SOA is about integration or not. When we gather services...
Michael Poulin
m3poulin
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Dec 17, 2008
6:31 pm

Integrations have interactions. Interactions are not always within the context of an integration. IMO, integration is the interaction between components that...
Rob Eamon
reamon943
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Dec 19, 2008
11:28 am

Hi, a little bit late but want to put my +1 with take it one step at a time. That's what I've seen too. Many companies are interested in doing one project at a...
htshozawa
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Dec 19, 2008
11:28 am

I always recommend a "think big, take small steps" methodology. So I concur with the "take one small step at a time" advice. But I find that many organizations...
Anne Thomas Manes
annemanes
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Dec 19, 2008
12:22 pm

Indeed. As I always tell clients Two things you need for a roadmap 1) Where you are 2) Where you want to go Then you can proceed with little steps. The old...
Steve Jones
jones.steveg
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Dec 19, 2008
12:49 pm

It seems that your contributions as a Group on this subject have not gone unheeded in the august world of technical journalism: ...
Gervas Douglas
gervasdouglas
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Dec 19, 2008
1:56 pm

When the scope of a project is limited to a single application, I'm recommending on 2 phase approach. In the first phase, I'm gathering the current status at...
htshozawa
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Dec 19, 2008
2:38 pm

I agree with " Integrations have interactions. Interactions are not always within the context of an integration" This means that service...
Michael Poulin
m3poulin
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Dec 19, 2008
12:22 pm

I'd argue that most services are more or less independent. And are likely in various ownership domains. IMO, *most* (if not close to all) service interactions...
Rob Eamon
reamon943
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Dec 20, 2008
9:19 pm

Rob, If your focus is integration, then you're less likely to be thinking about reducing redundancy through application consolidation. Integration is driven by...
Anne Thomas Manes
annemanes
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Dec 20, 2008
9:33 pm

Anne, I agree with your point about focus. Focus on the right level for a given situation. Focus on the right services to be built/exposed, not about tying...
Rob Eamon
reamon943
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Dec 21, 2008
10:06 pm

Doesn't the suspicion that SOA is vacuous grow stronger when you see that we can't even agree about the relationship of SOA and integration?...
Nick Gall
nick_gall_1117
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Dec 21, 2008
12:09 am

Not really, the argument appears to be more about what is integration, for instance whether process and choreography count as integration and whether more...
Steve Jones
jones.steveg
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Dec 21, 2008
9:35 am

Here is what Anne's blog has to say on this: <<According to this report by Jack Vaughn at SearchSOA | TechTarget, Yefim Natis asserted "SOA is integration" at...
Gervas Douglas
gervasdouglas
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Dec 21, 2008
10:03 am

IMHO, isn't integration just one objective of SOA. Isn't SOA an architecture which will make integration easier. I'm afraid that the best way to just eliminate...
htshozawa
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Dec 21, 2008
4:25 pm

Yefim wants 'service oriented integration'? Praise the lord. We can slap some basic policies around that and make it practical. Stop the bullsh!t. If I see...
jeffrschneider
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Dec 22, 2008
1:42 pm

+1 on the governance thing. We need more presentations on services-- what constitutes a good service, how many interfaces are too many, managing the...
Rob Eamon
reamon943
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Dec 22, 2008
8:44 pm

Zapthink has a very specific take on SOA and integration. They state the following: - One goal of SOA - Integration as a byproduct of Service composition -...
Nibeck, Mike
nibeck
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Dec 22, 2008
2:40 pm

+1. That's what I've been attempting to illustrate, though Mike has phrased it (via ZT statements) in a much better way than I. "If however the point of...
Rob Eamon
reamon943
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Dec 22, 2008
8:44 pm

In the vein of "I don't always agree with everything I say...." :-) Can one successfully argue that integration is essentially about defining interfaces?...
Rob Eamon
reamon943
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Dec 22, 2008
11:30 pm

Rob, What I'd say is that the _execution context_ in SOA is the integration and it is an _enabler_ for consumers and producers to be brought together, but the...
Steve Jones
jones.steveg
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Dec 23, 2008
2:01 am

... Hmm. The second person to think I made this error in definition. Perhaps I've worded somthing poorly. Integration is not in itself SOA. I've never...
Rob Eamon
reamon943
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Dec 23, 2008
5:37 am

... Surely integration is always an intermediary in itself? ... Depends what you mean by interaction. I tend to limit interaction to human interactions...
Steve Jones
jones.steveg
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Dec 23, 2008
11:57 am

... Hmm. I'm not sure. Let's examine C -> P. C forms the requisite message. C calls P via the supported protocol. P processes the message. P returns a response...
Rob Eamon
reamon943
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Dec 23, 2008
11:03 pm

... Definitely an EC thing ... EC again. ... HTTP is the intermediary. ... So interaction = integration? ... Depends on the definition of "distinct" "The...
Steve Jones
jones.steveg
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Dec 24, 2008
9:56 am

... Isn't an SOA document a natural language definition of what everyone thinks they need for a solution? Gregg Wonderly...
Gregg Wonderly
w5ggw
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Dec 25, 2008
8:26 am

... Not sure I understand what you mean by this Gregg. Unless its irony around the word "thinks". Natural language is always open to interpretation and is...
Steve Jones
jones.steveg
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Dec 31, 2008
8:36 pm

Steve, Does integration only belong to the execution context? Doesn't two components that needs to integrate share some understanding about the semantics? The...
Dennis Djenfer
dennis_djenfer
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Dec 23, 2008
1:46 pm

... components that needs to integrate share some understanding about the semantics? The way I see it, a big part of integration is about the semantics. I...
Nick Gall
nick_gall_1117
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Dec 23, 2008
11:00 pm
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