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Keith on BPM, SOA, OO & Brown Paper   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #5929 of 13951 |
<<In fact, so do most other modern software applications, though this
may be less obvious at first sight. To a modern software developer,
it is hard to overstate the importance of object-orientation, because
defining software objects lets you create a "virtual" world inside the
computer that corresponds closely to the world outside the computer.
After all, the real world contains objects, each with purpose,
function and properties - well, so should the virtual world!
Otherwise the real world and the virtual world do not, and cannot
possibly, relate closely to one another.

However, enter the world of BPM - or SOA - and you are right back in
the early 1960s. It's as if object-orientation never happened.

Mainstream BPM tools, whether for modelling or for execution, all
operate on the same fundamental basis: joining up individual
activities into a sequence, with branch points and looping here and
there as necessary. Some of the activities may be carried out by
machines, some by people. But in the end, what you are doing is
exactly what an old-fashioned procedural programmer does - starting
with a function, breaking this down into chunks, then joining up the
chunks. Some BPM languages and tools let you run streams of activity
in parallel - but this is only putting procedural programs
side-by-side, not making them object-orientated.

Similarly, SOA tools are all based on the procedural principle. To
most SOA architects, a service is just like a procedural program - it
offers a single function that can be invoked on demand. It was
fascinating to read a discussion on the main industry SOA mailing list
recently, in which most of the experts argued that object-orientation
was actually unnecessary for SOA, or even antithetical to it. What?!?
How can these people - senior, experienced and well-respected
software developers every one - have got it so wrong?

The effect of this procedural outlook among BPM and SOA vendors and
consultants is that "business processes", as defined using BPM tools,
and "business services", as defined using SOA tools, cannot possibly
bear any true relation to the real world. They may in certain cases
get some things done quicker, or cheaper. But the things they are
doing are not the same things that business people are interested in.

Business people are forced to live in the real world - unlike
programmers, it's the only one they've got. So business people tend
to look with suspicion on systems that don't match the reality they
know - and this includes any procedural system. No business is made
up of a "stream" or "chain" of processes, any more than it consists of
a "repository" of services. These are simply convenient fictions -
convenient for consultants and software vendors, that is. In reality,
businesses are complex, inter-related, continually evolving networks.
Every business person knows this instinctively, and sees it proved
again to them every working day as they engage with customers,
suppliers and colleagues.

TAKE AWAY

I will have more to say about the IT/business divide in future blog
entries. In a spirit of fairness, commentators on this topic have
often tried to lay the blame equally on both sides. But it's time to
recognize that, when it comes to BPM and SOA, the IT community is
doing the business community a monumental disservice - the more so
since there is currently little understanding on either side of the
mess that organizations are getting themselves into with these new
tools.>>

You can read Keith's blog in full at:

<http://www.ebizq.net/blogs/it_directions/archives/2006/09/what_good_are_b.php#c\
omments
>

Gervas








Tue Oct 3, 2006 1:52 pm

gervasdouglas
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Message #5929 of 13951 |
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<<In fact, so do most other modern software applications, though this may be less obvious at first sight. To a modern software developer, it is hard to...
Gervas Douglas
gervasdouglas
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Oct 3, 2006
2:13 pm

I am surprised this blog of Keith's has not provoked a reaction from anyone in this Group. Am I to take it that you are all broadly in accord? Gervas ... ...
Gervas Douglas
gervasdouglas
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Oct 4, 2006
5:59 pm

Hi Gervas, Didn't see it.Thanks. [BTW I wrote about this way back in November: http://www.ipbabble.com/2005/11/services_the_death_of_objects.html] I think...
William Henry
ipbabble
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Oct 4, 2006
11:30 pm

... After re-reading Keith's article, this sentence from William begins to sum up my opinion. As I tend to do, I take a middle of the road approach. There...
Todd Biske
tbiske
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Oct 5, 2006
8:31 am

Perhaps Kevin just isn't aware of state machines. From: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com...
John Evdemon
jevdemon
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Oct 5, 2006
8:33 am

William, can this be summed up by your saying it is all about bandwidth and network QoS? BTW, he is not Irish - his name is Keith. Come to think of it, he ...
Gervas Douglas
gervasdouglas
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Oct 5, 2006
8:35 am

Hi Gervas, First of all apologies to Keith for calling him Kevin. Don't know why that happened. Sincerest apologies Keith. I think that Keith's comment about...
William Henry
ipbabble
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Oct 5, 2006
1:11 pm

... I think this is the key issue. It points out that people want simplicity, and if they don't get any value out of caring about what happens, why should...
Gregg Wonderly
w5ggw
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Oct 5, 2006
7:51 pm

There's a difference between physical design (what Gregg is talking about) and logical design (what I'm talking about - some people call it conceptual design)....
Keith Harrison-Bronin...
keith_harris...
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Oct 6, 2006
8:46 am

Its a fair comment IMO if you think that SOA = the current generation of tools. It never ceases to amuse me when vendors have a stack that finishes at Process...
Steve Jones
jones.steveg
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Oct 6, 2006
8:42 am

I think OO and SOA are at different levels of granularity. Objects are smaller than applications. SOA is about services offered by applications (or systems)....
Robin
robinmulkers
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Oct 5, 2006
8:39 am

Well, after my comments in the blog entry, I wasn't expecting it to be received with enthusiasm by this group! I reply in detail since the aim of the blog...
Keith Harrison-Bronin...
keith_harris...
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Oct 5, 2006
11:34 am

Hey Keith, And I like to thinking of people as more than objects too ;-) (trying weakly to be witty) Anyway the thing is Keith that real life is a combination...
William Henry
ipbabble
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Oct 5, 2006
1:30 pm

William My point was not about implementation, but about design - which is all that business people see. Designing services (or processes) as procedural...
Keith Harrison-Bronin...
keith_harris...
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Oct 5, 2006
2:40 pm

Keith, I have heard already something similar to what you say. Do you know the "Naked objects pattern"? http://nakedobjects.org/wiki/Naked_Objects_Pattern ...
Robin
robinmulkers
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Oct 6, 2006
8:43 am

I heard of Naked Objects soon after it emerged, but never liked it much. Naked Objects allows you to build prototypes as a means of exploring domain solutions...
Keith Harrison-Bronin...
keith_harris...
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Oct 7, 2006
11:34 am

... Keith, Let me apologize for calling you Kevin (that will teach me to check the name of the writer instead of the name referenced in the thread). Perhaps I...
John Evdemon
jevdemon
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Oct 6, 2006
8:43 am

One reason this topic comes up is that objects are not the best way to model the world in software. Services are better, and simpler. It is too difficult to...
Eric Newcomer
e_newcomer
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Oct 6, 2006
8:46 am

There are 2 fallacies here. 1. That semantic richness introduced via techniques such as domain-specific languages can only be done procedurally. In fact, the...
Keith Harrison-Bronin...
keith_harris...
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Oct 6, 2006
12:40 pm

1. 100% agree 2. Disagree in part, its easy for people to think about one step after another, trudging down the road towards oblivion. The way I think of it...
Steve Jones
jones.steveg
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Oct 6, 2006
10:31 pm

[This was supposed to go out earlier today but I had a problem with the network service at my hotl ... if only they had a network object ;-) Only messing with...
William Henry
ipbabble
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Oct 7, 2006
11:33 am

... What is at issue, is how these two objects interact. An envelope, when being used by a mail system needs to divulge and address. The question is whether...
Gregg Wonderly
w5ggw
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Oct 8, 2006
3:56 pm

Hi Gregg, You're right of course; there are several ways to do this. My point was not which sort of get Address() you would use. My point was bigger picture...
William Henry
ipbabble
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Oct 9, 2006
8:50 am

... There are a couple of interesting points in all of this, from my perspective. One, is the ability of developers to see that software layers can be ...
Gregg Wonderly
w5ggw
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Oct 9, 2006
1:43 pm

Hi SO architects! I am an architect of the physical spaces...( it's not enough to say i am an architect anymore) my research is on the ways mobile technology...
sanaz
sanaz_mani
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Oct 10, 2006
7:56 am

Hi Sara I agree with Mitchell - though imo the pioneer in this field was Gene Rodenberry :-) You will be interested to read this, part of the material online...
Keith Harrison-Bronin...
keith_harris...
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Oct 10, 2006
8:56 am

... with ... business ... programmers. ... that ... many ... hard ... out ... a ... of ... on ... object. ... have ... get ... (grammar) ... not ... pattern ...
Semih Cetin
semih_cetin2003
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Oct 8, 2006
3:58 pm

... This apparent fussing about something that the author was not prepared to do, contains the following text near the end: "But in the end, we don’t...
Gregg Wonderly
w5ggw
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Oct 9, 2006
1:39 pm

... I'm very late to this discussion, but this paragraph from Semih very nicely sums up my opinion. Anyone who believes the real world, modeled with OO, is...
Stefan Tilkov
stilkov
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Oct 10, 2006
8:58 pm
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