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Anne on REST (Time for Spring WS v. REST Campaign to Open)   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #8332 of 13951 |
Business and Architectural Goals (was: other permathread)

--- In service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Baker"
<distobj@...> wrote:
>
> On 6/13/07, Steve Jones <jones.steveg@...> wrote:
> > So if the goal is to deliver IT that looks like and operates like
the business then ultimately it must be presented in service specific
ways.
>
> Why is that a goal, nevermind *the* goal? What are the
architectural
> benefits exactly? IMO, the goal should be to deliver a scalable,
> evolvable, extensible system with the right concerns properly
> separated through the principled application of constraints on the
> architectural elements of that system.

Mark/Steve,

let's not forget that the ultimate goal of most businesses is not to
create IT systems.

Leaving aside governmental and charitable organisations, most
businesses are designed simply to return financial benefits (whether
direct or indirect) to their owners, the shareholders.

A company like BP does this through the exploration, refining and
marketing of oil, gas and chemical products. Ford, on the other hand
chooses the manufacture and selling of motor vehicles. Citibank's
approach is to buy and sell financial products. And so on.

Of course the increasing competition resulting from globalised
markets means that today all of these companies *require* appropriate
IT systems to run their businesses. It is simply impractical to
operate such companies in a cost-effective way without a significant
investment in IT systems.

What we need is a way to decide what IT systems need to be built, how
they will interoperate with the other [human] parts of the
organisation and how to evaluate their cost and effectiveness at
supporting the objectives of the business.

In short, the real "system" to be designed is the business itself, of
which IT systems will be a [perhaps significant] part.

This is where thinking about "services" becomes useful.

The language of business design is very much about services, or the
three questions of:

1) What will you do for me (the service)?
2) How will this help my business?
3) How much will it cost?

So, we might have marketing services, finance services, HR services,
manufacturing services and customer support services all making up
our business. In choosing service suppliers, you care only
incidentally (through the SLA) about how the service is implemented.
Instead, services are considered as self-contained "black boxes".

Historically, the language of IT has been all about implementation
platforms and technology, with terms such as the mainframe,
client/server, SQL, Java, WSDL, REST and so on. In the context of
trying to design the [whole] business, this is largely irrelevant.

Now, if we can use the same language to talk about the operation of
the business as well as the IT systems then we are in a much better
position to understand and decide what IT systems are needed to
support the business. We can see immediately how these IT systems
will work with the other parts of the organisation to achieve the
aims of the business. And we can use the same methods for evaluating
the financial cost and benefits as we use elsewhere.

Although this may sound trivial, it is in fact a major step forward.

So what does this mean to the choice of technology implementation
approaches such as WS-Everything or REST? Clearly, WS-Everything is
more obviously oriented around "services", whilst REST is
about "resources". Isn't this a conflict?

Yes and no. This is where I think you need to take a hierarchical
(or fractal) view of the architecture, at least for two levels.

As we have seen, the concept of a "service" is a useful way to
partition the system that is the whole business. A business such as
BP, Ford or Citibank is a massive undertaking so we need some way to
simplify things and get a handle on how to design them.

But once we have broken the business down into "services", each such
service can be viewed as a system in its own right. Because the
services are self-contained, we can take a different implementation
approach to each one. Some might be dealt with by humans and manual
processes. Others might be heavyweight service-oriented IT systems
implemented using Java and WS-Everything. Still others might be way-
cool and resource-oriented IT systems using Ruby and REST.

I think it is a mistake to think that any large organisation can get
away with a single technology implementation approach for services.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that technology diversity is
*necessary* for survival. That is, you *need* both WS-Everything and
REST approaches in your organisation as well as a sprinkling of the
latest technological and product trends. A fractal approach to
service design can help you achieve this whilst controlling and
minimising the risks.

Regards,

-Mike Glendinning.





Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:47 am

mglendin
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Message #8332 of 13951 |
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... Judging by below I assume you are talking about the Website side of it, and it is indeed superb, but that is the "skin" presented to the business rather...
Steve Jones
jones.steveg
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Jun 14, 2007
3:23 pm

... the business then ultimately it must be presented in service specific ways. ... architectural ... Mark/Steve, let's not forget that the ultimate goal of...
Mike Glendinning
mglendin
Offline Send Email
Jun 15, 2007
10:12 am

+1 from me. This is pretty much what I've been banging on about for a few years. The implementation bit is the secondary concern and then its about "what...
Steve Jones
jones.steveg
Offline Send Email
Jun 15, 2007
10:34 am

... I haven't had a chance to read everything in the replies that followed up my previous response on the Anne on REST (Time for Spring WS v. REST Campaign to...
Gregg Wonderly
w5ggw
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Jun 15, 2007
5:03 pm

... It's interesting to watch you compare a crufty http access implementation with an *interface*. Sheesh. Alternatively: h = httplib2.Http(".cache") #...
Bill de hOra
bdehora
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Jun 16, 2007
11:57 am

... Bill, Your example is indeed more elegant than the crufty classes that come as standard with Java, but still looks suspiciously like RPC. Isn't this...
Mike Glendinning
mglendin
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Jun 18, 2007
9:40 am

... If we had a trace on the wire, it would look like a regular HTTP request. There's no embedded method call in the request body (or the URL), unless we want...
Bill de hOra
bdehora
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Jun 18, 2007
5:10 pm

... the ... Bill, Sorry for the late response, but I've been distracted on other things for the past couple of days. I didn't mean to pick on you, but I do see...
Mike Glendinning
mglendin
Offline Send Email
Jun 21, 2007
10:55 am

... [snip] From this POV, we could certainly argue that issuing an HTTP GET request is RPC per definitions above. After all, the client sends a request over...
Miran Z.
miran_z_1
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Jun 21, 2007
1:48 pm

Mike, RPC (*bad*) is not the same as Request/Response (*ok*) ... Stefan -- Stefan Tilkov, http://www.innoq.com/blog/st/...
Stefan Tilkov
stilkov
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Jun 18, 2007
5:12 pm

In fairness to Mike, the "RR" code isn't much different from the RPC code, and that was part of the point - maybe you do lose something on tooling support with...
Bill de hOra
bdehora
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Jun 19, 2007
8:04 am

... This is the point that I try to stress about using HTTP. It can be a good thing, but in the end, if you write code with the right layers of separation, it...
Gregg Wonderly
w5ggw
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Jun 19, 2007
3:47 pm

... So I have to ask to be clear. Are you saying that if I design a Java interface that is public interface HTTP { public Response get( URI uri ) throws...
Gregg Wonderly
w5ggw
Offline Send Email
Jun 19, 2007
3:46 pm

Of course I wasn't entirely serious with my "bad" and "ok" categorization. The interface you described looks fine to me because when I use it, I'll quite...
Stefan Tilkov
stilkov
Offline Send Email
Jun 20, 2007
9:32 am

... Hmmm, and what is RPC-ish in this example? h.request part? HTTP request has to be sent somehow down the pipe ... AFAIK, the point is that he did not use...
Miran Z.
miran_z_1
Offline Send Email
Jun 18, 2007
5:13 pm

... My point was that the HTTP layer is now embedded into the software, and even with your example, it still implementation details that anchor you to a ...
Gregg Wonderly
w5ggw
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Jun 19, 2007
3:43 pm

... I don't buy that. To repeat what I've already said, I say that the architectural style chosen should match the needs of the enterprise. And I think most...
Mark Baker
gonga_thrash
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Jun 15, 2007
2:04 pm

... Mark, You're still thinking too technically. Long before we can discuss what qualities an IT system may have, we need to decide what functionality is...
Mike Glendinning
mglendin
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Jun 17, 2007
3:29 pm

... I was responding to the paragraph where you made the (technical) claim that enterprises "*need* both WS-Everything and REST approaches". Nothing in your...
Mark Baker
gonga_thrash
Offline Send Email
Jun 18, 2007
9:42 am

... Mark, OK, sorry. Here I'm just being pragmatic (and technical!). The packaged applications and software infrastructure from SAP, IBM, Oracle et al. are...
Mike Glendinning
mglendin
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Jun 18, 2007
10:26 am

Now ... if only we could convince the software solution providers to adopt REST over WS-* ... Anne...
Anne Thomas Manes
annemanes
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Jun 18, 2007
5:12 pm

Why? What actual business benefits would that produce other than 2 years of re-engineering of solutions just to support a different way of shipping XML around?...
Steve Jones
jones.steveg
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Jun 19, 2007
3:35 pm

... But they already have....given HTTP is the transport of choice for WS- * these days. So they already adopted REST, didn't they? Jan...
Jan Algermissen
algermissen1971
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Jun 19, 2007
3:40 pm

... Umm....what exactly are the benefits of such packages? One of the major advantages of going the Web-way is, IMHO, to *avoid* the WS-* complexity overhead. ...
Jan Algermissen
algermissen1971
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Jun 18, 2007
5:15 pm

... You're kidding, right? What are the benefits of installing an off- the-shelf application package (the result of perhaps tens of thousands of man-years of...
Mike Glendinning
mglendin
Offline Send Email
Jun 19, 2007
8:07 am

... No, I wasn't. But I thought you referred to WS-* stack packages and not to the applications, sorry. Anyhow, just because some app you bought includes...
Jan Algermissen
algermissen1971
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Jun 19, 2007
3:40 pm

... Ummm have you used SAP Portal? ... Again, as some people have said (and they are right) REST is (when done right) pretty complex and people who just know a...
Steve Jones
jones.steveg
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Jun 20, 2007
9:37 am

The most obvious advantages of going with a packaged application solution over custom developed software are: - faster time to market - reduced risk of failure...
Anne Thomas Manes
annemanes
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Jun 19, 2007
8:08 am

... True, although at least in the case of CRM I would argue that customers would often be better off building a CRM of their own. Stefan...
Stefan Tilkov
stilkov
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Jun 19, 2007
3:40 pm

... Sure, but nobody *needs* those. And even if you are stuck with them because your CIO is golfing buddies with their VP of Sales, a) some parts of WS-* can...
Mark Baker
gonga_thrash
Offline Send Email
Jun 19, 2007
8:07 am
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