Duane,

Have you ever noticed that power plants appear next to major bodies of
water?  Not only do they use the water for the steam cycle but the lakes
and rivers can be used as the cold body temperature for Carnot's efficiency
equation.

Tom Moritz

At 11:50 AM 5/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>From: Duane/Dorothy Lindstrom <cboy@...>
>
*snip*
>What I am most taken with here is not so much the actual efficiency
>calculations, but the fact that heat engines will run more efficiently
>at cold temperatures than hot.  I'm sure dozens of folks have tinkered
>with driving down the Tc rather than raising the Th in the past but I'd
>like to explore that history a little further to see what the problems
>have been.
>
>Duane Lindstrom
>Lac du Flambeau, WI
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Who offers the richest group communications tools on the Internet?
>http://www.onelist.com
>Answer:  ONElist.  Check out our homepage for details!
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The SESUSA Web Site is at http://sesusa.hypermart.net
>
>

Actually, the Stirling engine was invented by two brothers, one was a
preacher the other was an engineer.

At 05:07 PM 5/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>From: "Tom Gentry" <tomg3@...>
>
>Remember the Inventor was a preacher and amateur blacksmith not a
>scientist and in addition to which, Thermodynamics was still 40 years in
>the future!
>

http://www.symanski.net/index.html

We mentioned Olaf Berge and his air engine reproductions.
Check out this page of "Air engine" enthusiasts.
Lake Itasca MN in August of 2000.


http://www.bji.net/users/lirpf/

Tom Gentry wrote:
>
> From: "Tom Gentry" <tomg3@...>
>
> There is a fellow in your area named Olaf Berg who is a double whiz at
> making these things and they all work.  There is a show every summer
> with Stirlings, Ericsson's and Steam engines of all kinds.

Tom,

Thanks.  I found him and he's even got an email address.  I'll follow
up.

I'm afraid I'd come out the big winner trading your knowledge for my
welding skills - that is unless you want an old hay baler patched
together or the frame in you 32 Ford Z'd.  I do want to do some
experimentation with welding aluminum, however.  Apparently there are
some new rods out that are supposed to work pretty good even for us non
experts.

Duane

Duane/Dorothy Lindstrom wrote:
>
> From: Duane/Dorothy Lindstrom <cboy@...>
>
> Tom Moritz wrote:
> >  Just remember, in thermodynamics, heat
> > transfer and chemistry you just about always use degrees R or K.
>
> Tom,
>
> Thanks.  The fact is I love noodling around with this kind of stuff
> mechanically but I don't understand the first thing about figuring it
> all out on paper (physics and chemistry were never my forte - but I did
> love welding class.)  So your input is very helpful to me as a beginner.

Remember the Inventor was a preacher and amateur blacksmith not a
scientist and in addition to which, Thermodynamics was still 40 years in
the future!

I'll show you how to do the calculations and you show me how to braze
316 stainless tubing to an iron head.

There is a fellow in your area named Olaf Berg who is a double whiz at
making these things and they all work.  There is a show every summer
with Stirlings, Ericsson's and Steam engines of all kinds.  Look on the
http://www.tamin.com page and look at the events.  I think it is in
there.  Don from Tamin goes every year but I'm too poor. still.<:-).

Also get on the sesusa page and look at the Graham Walker, The Stirling
Alternative ISBN number. Then go to the Library and see if they can find
it for you. I guarantee it will help your understanding math or no math
capability.


Duane/Dorothy Lindstrom wrote:
>
> From: Duane/Dorothy Lindstrom <cboy@...>
>
> Tom Moritz wrote:
> >  Just remember, in thermodynamics, heat
> > transfer and chemistry you just about always use degrees R or K.
>
> Tom,
>
> Thanks.  The fact is I love noodling around with this kind of stuff
> mechanically but I don't understand the first thing about figuring it
> all out on paper (physics and chemistry were never my forte - but I did
> love welding class.)  So your input is very helpful to me as a beginner.
>
> What I am most taken with here is not so much the actual efficiency
> calculations, but the fact that heat engines will run more efficiently
> at cold temperatures than hot.  I'm sure dozens of folks have tinkered
> with driving down the Tc rather than raising the Th in the past but I'd
> like to explore that history a little further to see what the problems
> have been.
>
> Duane Lindstrom
> Lac du Flambeau, WI
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Who offers the richest group communications tools on the Internet?
> http://www.onelist.com
> Answer:  ONElist.  Check out our homepage for details!
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The SESUSA Web Site is at http://sesusa.hypermart.net

Tom Moritz wrote:
>  Just remember, in thermodynamics, heat
> transfer and chemistry you just about always use degrees R or K.

Tom,

Thanks.  The fact is I love noodling around with this kind of stuff
mechanically but I don't understand the first thing about figuring it
all out on paper (physics and chemistry were never my forte - but I did
love welding class.)  So your input is very helpful to me as a beginner.

What I am most taken with here is not so much the actual efficiency
calculations, but the fact that heat engines will run more efficiently
at cold temperatures than hot.  I'm sure dozens of folks have tinkered
with driving down the Tc rather than raising the Th in the past but I'd
like to explore that history a little further to see what the problems
have been.

Duane Lindstrom
Lac du Flambeau, WI

Tom Gentry wrote:
> but your assumption that the delta-T and the Th affect the efficiency > is
correct.  Cooler engine Tc is higher efficiency but is difficult to
> reduce to or below ambient in practice.

Tom,

Very interesting.  I live on a lake in northern Wisconsin so have access
to lots and lots of cold and ice - at least during half the year.  I'm
also intrigued by the idea of possibly using the excess heat from the
hot cylinder of a Stirling to power an an absorption refrigeration unit
which would be used to cool the cold cylinder.  Ever hear of anyone
trying that either in theory or in practice?

Duane

One thing to note here.  There are actually four scales of temperature.
The two we commonly use are Celsius and Fahrenheit.  These are referenced
to the freezing point of water.  The other two are Kelvin (K) and
Renkin(sp?)(R).  These are referenced to absolute zero.  The temperatures
utilized in Carnot's efficiency equation are absolute so you need to
convert the temperatures we commonly use to degrees above absolute zero.
If you are starting with a temperature on the Fahrenheit scale add 460 to
get degrees R.  If you start with degrees Celsius add 273 to get degrees K
as Tom Gentry stated earlier.  Just remember, in thermodynamics, heat
transfer and chemistry you just about always use degrees R or K.

Tom Moritz

The theoretical ideal (friction less machine) efficiency of a heat
engine such as a Stirling can be stated ((Th-Tc)/Th) x 100 which gives
the efficiency in percent.  This is work out over heat in.  The
temperatures are in degrees absolute (K) so you must add 273 to each
term Tc and Th.  Thus your 1-(65/165) becomes 1-(273+65/273+165) but
your assumption that the delta-T and the Th affect the efficiency is
correct.  Cooler engine Tc is higher efficiency but is difficult to
reduce to or below ambient in practice. Plus there are many other losses
that reduce this ideal or Carnot (car no) efficiency.

Duane/Dorothy Lindstrom wrote:
>
> From: Duane/Dorothy Lindstrom <cboy@...>
>
> The sesusa website includes a formula for the efficiency of heat engines
> which I don't quite understand.  The formula is Efficiency= 1-tc/th.  If
> I am reading this formula correctly, it would indicate to me that the
> efficiency varies not only by the temperature differential between the
> hot chamber and the cold chamber but by the base temperature as well and
> that "colder" Stirlings would be more efficient than "hot" Stirlings.
> For example, a Stirling with a hot chamber at 165 degrees and a cold
> chamber at 65 degrees would have a theoretical efficiency of .61 (if I
> am applying for formula correctly).  At the same time a Stirling with a
> hot chamber at 265 degrees and a cold chamber at 165 degrees would have
> an efficiency of .38.  Both of these engines would be operating at a 100
> degree difference in temperature but the efficiencies would by quite
> different.
>
> Am I totally misinterpreting this formula?
>
> Duane Lindstrom
> Lac du Flambeau, WI
> cboy@...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The possibilities are endless!
> http://www.onelist.com
> ONElist has something for everyone!
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The SESUSA Web Site is at http://sesusa.hypermart.net

The sesusa website includes a formula for the efficiency of heat engines
which I don't quite understand.  The formula is Efficiency= 1-tc/th.  If
I am reading this formula correctly, it would indicate to me that the
efficiency varies not only by the temperature differential between the
hot chamber and the cold chamber but by the base temperature as well and
that "colder" Stirlings would be more efficient than "hot" Stirlings.
For example, a Stirling with a hot chamber at 165 degrees and a cold
chamber at 65 degrees would have a theoretical efficiency of .61 (if I
am applying for formula correctly).  At the same time a Stirling with a
hot chamber at 265 degrees and a cold chamber at 165 degrees would have
an efficiency of .38.  Both of these engines would be operating at a 100
degree difference in temperature but the efficiencies would by quite
different.

Am I totally misinterpreting this formula?

Duane Lindstrom
Lac du Flambeau, WI
cboy@...

Since Duane asked about archives.  I though it would be good to let the
list know how to view them.

First use your browser and go to: http://www.onelist.com

Second use the search box on their web page for 'sesusa' without the
quotes.

Third click on the sesusa in the description box and it will take you to
the archive of the digests.

Remember: When in doubt 'click'....you can always go back!

Tom

The list is new to the web so the questions have not been asked yet in
all probability.  Look over the website and check out the references and
links first.  This will give you a feel for the subject and then ask
away.

"There is no such thing as a dumb question"

Duane/Dorothy Lindstrom wrote:
>
> From: Duane/Dorothy Lindstrom <cboy@...>
>
> I am brand new to the list.  Is there an archive of prior messages so
> that I'm not repeating a lot of questions that have already been
> answered?
>
> Duane
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The possibilities are endless!
> http://www.onelist.com
> ONElist has something for everyone!
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The SESUSA Web Site is at http://sesusa.hypermart.net

I am brand new to the list.  Is there an archive of prior messages so
that I'm not repeating a lot of questions that have already been
answered?

Duane

http://www.stirlingtech.com/ is back up with a new look and some additional
models of free piston Stirling engines.  Nice looking site with sound effects.

Thanks for the correction Johan.

And how did you download it without a modem ?
I would love to get either format on a CD-R.

Tom

Johan Bergerlind wrote:
>
> From: "Johan Bergerlind" <jojjeb@...>
>
> Hello
> I'm new to stirling technology. My first experience of stirling engines was
> a schoolproject I and a friend carried out. We wrote about them and built a
> working can model.
>
> The movie you are talking about is in two formats, .MOV and .AVI. For the
> .MOV you need Quiktime, but for the AVI you only need Microsoft mediaplayer
> or similar.
>
> It's a quite interesting movie, but a big download if you use a modem.
>
> /Johan Bergerlind
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Gentry <tomg3@...>
> To: sesusa@onelist.com <sesusa@onelist.com>
> Date: den 1 maj 1999 23:45
> Subject: [sesusa] Re: New AVI Movie of Stirling Engine Operation
>
> >From: "Tom Gentry" <tomg3@...>
> >
> >oops....Forgot the URL
> >
> >Tom Gentry wrote:
> >>
> >> From: "Tom Gentry" <tomg3@...>
> >>
> >> May 1, 1999
> >>
> >> Stirling Technology of Athens, Ohio (not connected with Stirling
> Technologies
> >> of Richland WA) has a new 52 Megabyte AVI movie for download.  It can be
> >> downloaded in pieces or the full movie.  It requires quick time to see
> it.
> >> http://www.stirling-tech.com/video/main.html
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Did you know that you can now set up a shared calendar to
> >> post events of interest to your community?
> >> http://www.onelist.com
> >> Check out our homepage for details.
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The SESUSA Web Site is at http://sesusa.hypermart.net
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Want to learn more about your list users...?
> >their opinions, interests, thoughts?
> >http://www.onelist.com
> >You can now survey them with our new User Survey Tool
> >Check out our homepage for details.
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >The SESUSA Web Site is at http://sesusa.hypermart.net
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Looking for a new hobby?  Want to make a new friend?
> http://www.onelist.com
> Come join one of the 130,000 e-mail communities at ONElist!
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The SESUSA Web Site is at http://sesusa.hypermart.net

Hello
I'm new to stirling technology. My first experience of stirling engines was
a schoolproject I and a friend carried out. We wrote about them and built a
working can model.

The movie you are talking about is in two formats, .MOV and .AVI. For the
.MOV you need Quiktime, but for the AVI you only need Microsoft mediaplayer
or similar.

It's a quite interesting movie, but a big download if you use a modem.


/Johan Bergerlind

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Gentry <tomg3@...>
To: sesusa@onelist.com <sesusa@onelist.com>
Date: den 1 maj 1999 23:45
Subject: [sesusa] Re: New AVI Movie of Stirling Engine Operation


>From: "Tom Gentry" <tomg3@...>
>
>oops....Forgot the URL
>
>Tom Gentry wrote:
>>
>> From: "Tom Gentry" <tomg3@...>
>>
>> May 1, 1999
>>
>> Stirling Technology of Athens, Ohio (not connected with Stirling
Technologies
>> of Richland WA) has a new 52 Megabyte AVI movie for download.  It can be
>> downloaded in pieces or the full movie.  It requires quick time to see
it.
>> http://www.stirling-tech.com/video/main.html
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Did you know that you can now set up a shared calendar to
>> post events of interest to your community?
>> http://www.onelist.com
>> Check out our homepage for details.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The SESUSA Web Site is at http://sesusa.hypermart.net
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Want to learn more about your list users...?
>their opinions, interests, thoughts?
>http://www.onelist.com
>You can now survey them with our new User Survey Tool
>Check out our homepage for details.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The SESUSA Web Site is at http://sesusa.hypermart.net
>

Hello folks, I just joined this list out of an interest and need to know
more about Stirling cycle engines.  My main interest is in robotics and I
am researching alternate methods to power a personal robot.  On the
newsgroup comp.robotics.misc someone is exploring the use of a steam engine
to directly drive a robot using the microcontroller to guide it with a
clutch.  I would rather use a Stirling engine as a method to generate the
electricity to power the servomotors and computer circuits.  To generate
heat for the engine I am exploring chemical reactions that use easily
acquired materials.  I have looked at water and ammonium nitrate but
getting quantities of the chemical could require clearance with the ATF.
Calcium oxide (Quicklime) has possibilities but I'm still experimenting
with different materials.  Anyone else has experience with ideas like these?

I currently reside in Houston, Texas and make my living as a computer
drafter for a civil engineering company.  I have also worked as a graphic
artist, machinist, electronics technician, etc.  I lurk on and contribute
to the following newsgroups: comp.robotics.misc, alt.animation,
rec.arts.animation and the Small Wonder website.

-Herb Montes (tinkering in Texas)

oops....Forgot the URL

Tom Gentry wrote:
>
> From: "Tom Gentry" <tomg3@...>
>
> May 1, 1999
>
> Stirling Technology of Athens, Ohio (not connected with Stirling Technologies
> of Richland WA) has a new 52 Megabyte AVI movie for download.  It can be
> downloaded in pieces or the full movie.  It requires quick time to see it.
> http://www.stirling-tech.com/video/main.html
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Did you know that you can now set up a shared calendar to
> post events of interest to your community?
> http://www.onelist.com
> Check out our homepage for details.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The SESUSA Web Site is at http://sesusa.hypermart.net

May 1, 1999

Stirling Technology of Athens, Ohio (not connected with Stirling Technologies
of Richland WA) has a new 52 Megabyte AVI movie for download.  It can be
downloaded in pieces or the full movie.  It requires quick time to see it.

May 1, 1999

We have discovered that Stirling Technologies of Richland WA (not connected
with the company of a similar name in Ohio) has taken their website down and
posted a message notice of 'future home'.  Does anyone know what happened to
their old site? Or what activities are currently under way there?

You can visit the sites of most of the known active Stirling companies by
going to http://sesusa.hypermart.net and selecting "today's engines".

Michael,

Do you know of the German group of Dieter Viebach?
http://members.aol.com/bkammerich/stirleengl.htm
They seem quite active.  Also MIT in Boston, MA USA
has such a program.

Michael Schmid wrote:
>
> From: Michael Schmid <Michael.Schmid@...>
>
> I am new to this list. I am a research associate at the University in
> Bayreuth, Germany. We are planning to let design and construct our students
> a stirling engine. Sorry, yet I do not have interesting news about stirling
> engines.
>
> Michael Schmid
>

Michael Schmid wrote:
>
> From: Michael Schmid <Michael.Schmid@...>
>
> I am new to this list. I am a research associate at the University in
> Bayreuth, Germany. We are planning to let design and construct our students
> a stirling engine. Sorry, yet I do not have interesting news about stirling
> engines.
>
> Michael Schmid
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
> select the Member Center link from the menu bar on the left.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The SESUSA Web Site is at http://sesusa.hypermart.net

Michael,

Do you know of the German group of Dieter Viebach?
http://members.aol.com/bkammerich/stirleengl.htm
They seem quite active.  Also MIT in Boston, MA USA
has such a program.

Michael Schmid wrote:
>
> From: Michael Schmid <Michael.Schmid@...>
>
> I am new to this list. I am a research associate at the University in
> Bayreuth, Germany. We are planning to let design and construct our students
> a stirling engine. Sorry, yet I do not have interesting news about stirling
> engines.
>
> Michael Schmid
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
> select the Member Center link from the menu bar on the left.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The SESUSA Web Site is at http://sesusa.hypermart.net

The known number of companies making Stirling machines for sale is very small.
I only know of three. They all make models and not practical machines for use.
Check the links in Today's engines on the webpage and you can see the level of
activity.  Besides the submarines, the dish/stirling solar concentrator
generators are the most active development that can be purchased.  But to my
knowledge there are no production Stirling devices for sale anywhere except
cryo-coolers, models and toys.

I would love to stand corrected!

Tom Moritz wrote:
>
> From: Tom Moritz <tom.moritz@...>
>
> Greetings.  I'm new to this list and I hope this is within the scope of
> discussion here.  I was wondering how many companies manufacture machines
> based on the Stirling cycle?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Tom Moritz
> ***********************************
> *                                       *
> *       From the computer of:   *
> *           Tom Moritz          *
> *                                       *
> ***********************************
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Did you know that knowledge is power?
> http://www.ONElist.com
> Join a new ONElist e-mail community and strengthen your mind!
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The SESUSA Web Site is at http://sesusa.hypermart.net

I am pleased to report that the SESUSA page continues to be accessed by an
ever increasing number of people from around the world. The number of hits has
doubled each month since February 1999 and continues to grow.

The 'list' is growing in the number of subscribers but there still is less
activity than anticipated. I urge you to continually scout out information
about Stirling engines and post it to the list.  If you locate a URL about
Stirlings please post it here as soon as possible.  What ever you find in your
searches, whatever activities in which you are personally involved, please
share them with the 'list'

The people who populate this list will be the first to know about any new
developments that I discover and I hope you post your findings too.

Tom Gentry
webmaster
sesusa.hypermart.net

I am new to this list. I am a research associate at the University in
Bayreuth, Germany. We are planning to let design and construct our students
a stirling engine. Sorry, yet I do not have interesting news about stirling
engines.

Michael Schmid

Greetings.  I'm new to this list and I hope this is within the scope of
discussion here.  I was wondering how many companies manufacture machines
based on the Stirling cycle?

Thank you,

Tom Moritz
***********************************
* 			 *
* From the computer of: *
*     Tom Moritz  *
* 			 *
***********************************

Please post your Stirling related news, ideas or activities to the list for
all to share.  The more traffic relative to Stirlings that passes through the
list the more the list subscribers will participate.

A simple posting of who you are and what interest you have in Stirlings will
allow us to begin to find others with whom we can network.

Lurk Not! Lest we lose our list!

Tom

Welcome, Welcome One and All to the Stirling Engine Society USA List.
Your comments and news is welcome here.. please post soon and often.