Hey Randy,

Since you are also using servo motors as generators,
why not characterize one for performance vs RPM?
They are almost perfectly cylindrical, and it's
easy to jury-rig (no pun intended) a test setup.
Once you know the generator characteristics, you'll
have a much better idea of what sort of rotor you
need for your wind conditions.

Just put two of the motors, shafts facing one another,
in the "V" of a piece of angle iron.  A couple of
wraps of duct tape will hold them in place, and the
shafts will be in nearly perfect alignment.  Then
couple the two end-to-end shafts with a few wraps
of duct tape and you're all set to use one as the
power source to drive the other as the generator.

You will find that the output voltage of the servo
motor is practically a linear function of RPM (for
a constant-resistance load), and the output resistance
of the generator is practically independent of both
RPM and loading.  Therefore the entire generator
can be reduced to a Thevenin equivalent circuit,
a voltage source in series with a resistor.  The
the voltage source will be a constant times the shaft
RPM.  You can then use this equivalent circuit to
figure the RPM needed to provide an arbitrary voltage
output into an arbitrary load.

In theory, you can determine both the generator
constant and the output resistance from only two
data points, but I tested over a range of
RPM and load just to check my results and get a
good average.

You will need a way to vary the voltage applied to
the driving motor so that you can vary the RPM of
the generator to take data.  I used a variable-
voltage power supply, but you could also use a
couple of batteries (one vs two in series).  You
will also need a way to measure the shaft RPM.  An
electronic tach is ideal, but if you don't have one
you can use a stopwatch and a long piece of string.
Time how long it takes to wind up a certain length
of string on the motor shaft, and use the average
circumference of the winding to figure how many
revolutions occured during that time.  Any good
meter can be used to measure output voltage, but
you may want to put a filter capacitor in parallel
with the output to smooth the measurement.

If you test open-circuit voltage (no electrical
load on generator) vs RPM, you can determine the
generator constant in volts per RPM.  I'd check
this value for at least two generator speeds.
Then you can determine the generator's output
resistance by putting a known load on the generator,
measuring the output voltage and RPM, and calculating
what the internal resistance must be in order to
produce the measured reduction in output from what
you would have expected at that same RPM with no
load.  Again, it is advisable to take several
measurements at different conditions of RPM and
load so that you can average out measurment
uncertainties from your results.

By the way, the servo motors I have (bought from
Surplus Sales in Lincoln, Nebraska) produce a
no-load voltage of 0.0377 volts per RPM, and
have an output resistance of 1.24 ohms.

How do you use this information once you have it?

For example, suppose I want to be able to supply
5 amps charging current at 14.6 volts (13.8 volts
battery plus 0.8 volts across my blocking diode).
First, I calculate that the 5 amps will cause a
loss of 5 x 1.24 = 6.2 volts across the generator's
internal resistance.  I therefore have to produce
an internal generator voltage of 14.6 + 6.2 = 20.8
volts.  At 0.0377 volts per RPM, this means I
have to come up with some driving arrangement that
will spin the shaft at 20.8/0.0377 = 552 RPM.

What happens if the shaft spins slower, say,
450 RPM?  The internal voltage becomes 450 x 0.0377
= 16.965 volts.  The current supplied into
the battery is the difference in charging voltage
and internal voltage, divided by the internal
resistance.  So, the charging current (if we assume
that the battery and diode voltages are the
same as in the previous example) now becomes
(16.965 - 14.6) / 1.24 = 1.91 amps.

I can also calculate the cut-in RPM for the
generator in this charging application.  It is
simply the RPM at which the generator's internal
voltage just equals the voltage needed to start
supplying charge to the battery.  For a 14.6-volt
charging requirement, this is 14.6/0.0377 = 387
RPM.

I have not measured the mechanical-to-electrical
conversion efficiency of my servo generator, as
I don't yet have a method to measure torque at
the shaft while it is running.

best regards,

Marty Jones
mjones@...

ps - I may be driving through West Texas this
coming spring, on my way to a pool tournament
in Las Vegas.  I wouldn't mind seeing your
plastic-barrel blades, I really think that's a
neat idea.

-----Original Message-----
From: randy young [mailto:judgeyoung@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 11:12 AM
To: awea-wind-home@eGroups.com
Subject: [a-w-h] multiple turbines


Happy Holidays, all!

Has anyone ever had experience with using multiple gennys on one tower? My
little home made 5' unit is light and doesn't produce much power, but two
might charge the battery for my treehouse cabin. Is there any advantage to
multiple small units(other than my small units only cost about $30 ea., a
larger unit might cost more to build)? Could they be wired in series for an
increase in low wind performance? Any other  advantages/disadvantages? Could
they be set up to switch from series to parallel at higher wind speeds to
prevent to high of a voltage?

Another question: If my generator is not properly sized to my blade, is it
possible that a smaller blade would make more usable energy by virtue of
increasing the rpm and, consequently, voltage?

just one more... Has anyone used a "golf cart" differential as a gear box
for a slightly larger generator? The units are light, efficient and rugged
and have a ratio of about 5-7 to one. I think that the unit, combined with
an alternator might be feasible with about a 9 foot or so prop (pvc pipe, of
course!) with a belt drive to increase the ratio further. Do you think that
this will be too much friction to start in relatively light winds?

I planned to try to attach the prop to one wheel hub of the cart rear end
and use that brake to stop the prop and simply lock the other brake, but the
differential spider gears may make the ratio double? Any brainstorming
ideas?



______________________________________________________

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> Is there any advantage to
>multiple small units

reliability maybe

>(other than my small units only cost about $30 ea., a
>larger unit might cost more to build)?

cheaper than 2 small ones probably though.

>Could they be wired in series for an
>increase in low wind performance?

true but rather a hassle.

> Any other  advantages/disadvantages?

disavantages include lots of fiddling about.

> Could
>they be set up to switch from series to parallel at higher wind speeds to
>prevent to high of a voltage?

yes in theory.
>
>Another question: If my generator is not properly sized to my blade, is it
>possible that a smaller blade would make more usable energy by virtue of
>increasing the rpm and, consequently, voltage?

yes if the alternator speed is away above the best speed for the blades.
Then you will probably do better with a smaller diameter, even though it
will catch less wind.
>
>just one more... Has anyone used a "golf cart" differential as a gear box
>for a slightly larger generator?

sounds like a lot of friction and maintenance.

Hugh

Scoraig,Scotland.
http://homepages.enterprise.net/hugh0piggott/

01854 633 286 (phone)
01854 633 233 (fax)
07713157600 (mobile)

John Sayler -
Why do only the Oregon people get in on the "massage" thing?

:)

Elaine Hebert
Happy Y2K, All!
ehebert@...

Happy Holidays, all!

Has anyone ever had experience with using multiple gennys on one tower? My
little home made 5' unit is light and doesn't produce much power, but two
might charge the battery for my treehouse cabin. Is there any advantage to
multiple small units(other than my small units only cost about $30 ea., a
larger unit might cost more to build)? Could they be wired in series for an
increase in low wind performance? Any other  advantages/disadvantages? Could
they be set up to switch from series to parallel at higher wind speeds to
prevent to high of a voltage?

Another question: If my generator is not properly sized to my blade, is it
possible that a smaller blade would make more usable energy by virtue of
increasing the rpm and, consequently, voltage?

just one more... Has anyone used a "golf cart" differential as a gear box
for a slightly larger generator? The units are light, efficient and rugged
and have a ratio of about 5-7 to one. I think that the unit, combined with
an alternator might be feasible with about a 9 foot or so prop (pvc pipe, of
course!) with a belt drive to increase the ratio further. Do you think that
this will be too much friction to start in relatively light winds?

I planned to try to attach the prop to one wheel hub of the cart rear end
and use that brake to stop the prop and simply lock the other brake, but the
differential spider gears may make the ratio double? Any brainstorming
ideas?



______________________________________________________

You guys could report this to Ebay as a case of fraud. Are there
any bids for it yet?

Michael Klemen wrote:

> Well, folks, I checked this one out for kicks.  $4500.  On sale.  8)
>
> I asked the folks for a couple more details about the turbine.
> Below is my original message and their response.  The "new" math
> they are talking about sounds like they forget the "hours" part
> of energy.  If you read very carefully below, in a 12 mph wind,
> this turbine will generate the "daily rated amount of energy".
> It sounds to me like they are saying that in a 12 mph wind for
> 16 HOURS, they will get 5000 Watt(-hours) off of the turbine.
> 5000/16 = 312 WATTS!  That's a much more "normal" rating for a
> 7 foot prop.  HOWEVER, comparing it to the Whisper H900, in a
> 12 mph wind, the H900 will produce 3580 Watt-hours.  So, they're
> still saying that they can capture a lot more energy (50% more)
> in the same swept area as the Whisper H900, at 3 times the price,
> of course, assuming that this is how their "new math" works.
> Of course, I don't understand how with this "new math" works to
> allow them to make the claim that this turbine will allow you to
> energize an entire, AVERAGE American home that uses 2,000 kWh/month.
> The new math just doesn't add up there.  Of course, since it sounds
> like they do not know what they're talking about, what more would we
> expect?
>
> And, of course, the turbine is internally regulated so it'll
> spin like a banshee since it doesn't govern.  Heck, the Air is
> about a 4 foot diameter...this one's 7 feet.  So, if it never
> turns out of the wind, it's probably gonna sound wild, unless
> there's enough drag and the airfoil is poor enough that it can
> not attain a speed to flutter!
>
> Mike
>
> > Subject:
> >      Re: 5000 watt wind turbine
> >    Date:  Tue, 28 Dec 1999 23:20:55 -0600
> >    From: "Russel Kuschel - Wizard Compu-Doctor" <compudoc@...>
> >      To: <windy@...>
> >
> >
> > Thanks for asking, Mike;
> >
> > Until January 3rd (during an eBay auction-advertisement) our turbines are
> > priced at $4500.  Normal price is $5000 per kit.  You may save $500 by
> > placing your order before that date.
> >
> > The 5000 Watt rating for our generator is based upon a daily output produced
> > from a 16-hour expected average wind per day.  This is the rating that was
> > used by turbine designers at the turn of the century (at the end of the
> > 1800s).
> >
> > The output curve would show a variable voltage and wattage fluctuating with
> > the wind-speed.  At 3.5 MPH, our blades are already spinning fast-enough to
> > cut-in (unlike our competitors).  At 12 MPH it will produce the rated daily
> > amount of electricity.  At 25+ MPH, our generator produces above a 7500 Watt
> > daily rating.
> >
> > The governing is done through automatic electronic regulation.  The unit is
> > designed to take extreme weather conditions, including high-wind.  There is
> > also a one-year Act of God warranty, followed by four-years of maintenance
> > warranty coverage as described on our web-site.
> >
> > Note: The generator component of our turbine kit is manufactured using
> > high-capacity parts.  The bearings, for example, are industrial quality
> > high-speed bearings rated for 25 years of "normal" use.  Our generators do
> > not spin this fast, therefore the bearings in our generators should last
> > much longer.  Other internal generator components are similarly oversized.
> > It is a solid investment with easy maintenance.
> >
> > Again, thanks for asking.
> >
> > Russel Kuschel
> > Director of Sales and Marketing, Wind Turbine Project
> > 320-684-2999
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Michael Klemen <windy@...>
> > To: <compudoc@...>
> > Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 10:45 PM
> > Subject: 5000 watt wind turbine
> >
> >
> > > Hi.
> > >
> > > I was wondering how much you charge for your 5000 watt
> > > wind turbine.  Could you please send me the power curve
> > > for this machine, so that I may determine the energy production
> > > at my site?  How does the turbine govern?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Mike Klemen
> > >
> >
> >
>
> Dea Nagstrom wrote:
> >
> > 5000W in 12 MPH wind using a 7' prop. Hmmm, good thing they are using
> > that new math so they can rate it higher.  Check it out for a bit of
> > humor.
> >
> > http://www.pcchannels.net/bladepower/en/en_index.htm
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> You have received this message because you are a subscriber to the American
Wind Energy Association's Home Energy Systems list.  To view previous messages
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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>
> Take advantage of the savings and selection now.
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Well, folks, I checked this one out for kicks.  $4500.  On sale.  8)

I asked the folks for a couple more details about the turbine.
Below is my original message and their response.  The "new" math
they are talking about sounds like they forget the "hours" part
of energy.  If you read very carefully below, in a 12 mph wind,
this turbine will generate the "daily rated amount of energy".
It sounds to me like they are saying that in a 12 mph wind for
16 HOURS, they will get 5000 Watt(-hours) off of the turbine.
5000/16 = 312 WATTS!  That's a much more "normal" rating for a
7 foot prop.  HOWEVER, comparing it to the Whisper H900, in a
12 mph wind, the H900 will produce 3580 Watt-hours.  So, they're
still saying that they can capture a lot more energy (50% more)
in the same swept area as the Whisper H900, at 3 times the price,
of course, assuming that this is how their "new math" works.
Of course, I don't understand how with this "new math" works to
allow them to make the claim that this turbine will allow you to
energize an entire, AVERAGE American home that uses 2,000 kWh/month.
The new math just doesn't add up there.  Of course, since it sounds
like they do not know what they're talking about, what more would we
expect?

And, of course, the turbine is internally regulated so it'll
spin like a banshee since it doesn't govern.  Heck, the Air is
about a 4 foot diameter...this one's 7 feet.  So, if it never
turns out of the wind, it's probably gonna sound wild, unless
there's enough drag and the airfoil is poor enough that it can
not attain a speed to flutter!

Mike




> Subject:
>      Re: 5000 watt wind turbine
>    Date:  Tue, 28 Dec 1999 23:20:55 -0600
>    From: "Russel Kuschel - Wizard Compu-Doctor" <compudoc@...>
>      To: <windy@...>
>
>
> Thanks for asking, Mike;
>
> Until January 3rd (during an eBay auction-advertisement) our turbines are
> priced at $4500.  Normal price is $5000 per kit.  You may save $500 by
> placing your order before that date.
>
> The 5000 Watt rating for our generator is based upon a daily output produced
> from a 16-hour expected average wind per day.  This is the rating that was
> used by turbine designers at the turn of the century (at the end of the
> 1800s).
>
> The output curve would show a variable voltage and wattage fluctuating with
> the wind-speed.  At 3.5 MPH, our blades are already spinning fast-enough to
> cut-in (unlike our competitors).  At 12 MPH it will produce the rated daily
> amount of electricity.  At 25+ MPH, our generator produces above a 7500 Watt
> daily rating.
>
> The governing is done through automatic electronic regulation.  The unit is
> designed to take extreme weather conditions, including high-wind.  There is
> also a one-year Act of God warranty, followed by four-years of maintenance
> warranty coverage as described on our web-site.
>
> Note: The generator component of our turbine kit is manufactured using
> high-capacity parts.  The bearings, for example, are industrial quality
> high-speed bearings rated for 25 years of "normal" use.  Our generators do
> not spin this fast, therefore the bearings in our generators should last
> much longer.  Other internal generator components are similarly oversized.
> It is a solid investment with easy maintenance.
>
> Again, thanks for asking.
>
> Russel Kuschel
> Director of Sales and Marketing, Wind Turbine Project
> 320-684-2999
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Klemen <windy@...>
> To: <compudoc@...>
> Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 10:45 PM
> Subject: 5000 watt wind turbine
>
>
> > Hi.
> >
> > I was wondering how much you charge for your 5000 watt
> > wind turbine.  Could you please send me the power curve
> > for this machine, so that I may determine the energy production
> > at my site?  How does the turbine govern?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mike Klemen
> >
>
>


Dea Nagstrom wrote:
>
> 5000W in 12 MPH wind using a 7' prop. Hmmm, good thing they are using
> that new math so they can rate it higher.  Check it out for a bit of
> humor.
>
> http://www.pcchannels.net/bladepower/en/en_index.htm

Who on the list is from Oregon? Send massage directly....
Sayler

                         J. P. Sayler & Associates Consultants, Ltd.
                            Wind Energy Development Since 1973.
                              Des Moines - Boulder - Los Angeles
   Consumers Guide to Commercially Available Wind Systems; 1997,
  Meteorological Considerations in the Utilization of Windturbines; 1985.
                          "Renewable solutions for a finite planet."
                                           windpowr@...

I've lost Mick Segrillo's e-mail address, can someone forward it to me
directly?
Appreciated,
Sayler

                          J. P. Sayler & Associates Consultants, Ltd.
                            Wind Energy Development Since 1973.
                              Des Moines - Boulder - Los Angeles
   Consumers Guide to Commercially Available Wind Systems; 1997,
  Meteorological Considerations in the Utilization of Windturbines; 1985.
                          "Renewable solutions for a finite planet."
                                           windpowr@...

Dea Nagstrom wrote:

> 5000W in 12 MPH wind using a 7' prop. Hmmm, good thing they are using
> that new math so they can rate it higher.  Check it out for a bit of
> humor.
>
> http://www.pcchannels.net/bladepower/en/en_index.htm
>

I am thoroughly disgusted with this guys claims.  I sure hope that nobody
actually puts down good money for one of his turbines.

Jeff Gilbert
Chair, Potomac Region Solar Energy Association

Just read "Death toll in European storms at 54, France, Austria, Germany,
Switzerland hit by gusts up to 136 mph", http://www.msnbc.com/msn/350424.asp
I hope and pray that listmembers in the region are safe.

In a message dated 12/27/99 10:31:20 PM EST, dean.m.hagstrom@... writes:

<< 5000W in 12 MPH wind using a 7' prop. Hmmm, good thing they are using
  that new math so they can rate it higher.  Check it out for a bit of
  humor.>>

  Hmmm............    Augmentor not included???

Jon Ricker

5000W in 12 MPH wind using a 7' prop. Hmmm, good thing they are using
that new math so they can rate it higher.  Check it out for a bit of
humor.


http://www.pcchannels.net/bladepower/en/en_index.htm

Our generators are engineered with the purpose of providing for the
maximum output, durability,
             and reliability in our products.  Our "breakthrough" design
breaks previous mathematic attempts to
             calculate wind-to-power output levels.  Your standardized
wind-to-power math formulas are expected
             to under-rate this new type of generator.

Our breakthroughs in Wind-Turbine technologies have produced the first
and only turbine of this kind in
       the world today.  It begins producing power at 3.5 MPH
wind-speed, it reaches 5000 Watts production at
        about 12MPH, and produces over 7600 Watts of electric power in a
25+MPH wind.  The KIT is small
       enough and strong enough to be used effectively and conveniently
by the average household.  The whole
           generator kit weighs less than 150 pounds and can be
installed by local electricians (where locally
                                                 acceptable).





Prop-size: SMALL, 3 Blades, 7 foot diameter.  We have found that the
blades do NOT need to be large to
             produce more power.

At 05:04 PM 12/27/99 -0500, CBrant5618@... wrote:
> Hello  all,
>  Well i cut some off my prop, glued the magnets, stood the 85ft tower back
>up, now i have a new emergency, I forgot how my rectifiers are wired! I had
>them all out and unwired because i had new ones to install but now i cant
>remember if the are wired in a delta configuration or what. As you probably
>know there are 3 Blue wires coming down from the Whisper 600. In the control
>panel there are 2 wires coming off each of them to go to the rectifiers (3).
>Does each pair of 2 go to the same rectifier? OR, are they in a delta config?
>I will be checking mail this evening while i experiment.  Thanks again.
>  Glad I'm not working on a 30kw unit.   : )

The Whispers are reconnectable in a wye-delta/series/parallel fashion for
different voltages, but all this happens at the top.
(These connections have to be right, or nothing else will be!)  You should have
three conductors coming down, and each of these should be connected "delta" to
the electrically common point of a pair of diodes in the box.  Then, from the
other ends of the diodes, you have three cathodes and three anodes for taking
off the DC.  If this is not clear by inspection, I suggest you label everything
and key the labels to a drawing.....

am

Thanks for the Xmas Greetings and just to hope to all of you:


Happy New 2000, the last year of the Twentieth Century

and also hope you could reach your own goals.

Could us Eduardo? :)



				 Rafael

>Does each pair of 2 go to the same rectifier? OR, are they in a delta config?

It doesn't much matter, so long as each wire from the windmill goes to an
AC wire on the rectifier.

You cannot distinguish delta and wye(star) on a rectifier; it's just AC in
and DC out, always delta in effect.

Hugh

Scoraig,Scotland.
http://homepages.enterprise.net/hugh0piggott/

01854 633 286 (phone)
01854 633 233 (fax)
07713157600 (mobile)

The PM alternator has a three phase delta output (the three blue wires you
mentioned) consisting of phase A, B, and C.  You will use six diodes to
create a full wave rectifier as shown below in the schematic.  The little
horizontal pointers with the vertical line are the rectifiers (diodes).  The
vertical line represents the cathode--be sure to get the polarity correct on
the diodes!  Connect the blue wires to the locations marked A, B, and C
(phasing in not of a concern on the input side--any blue wire to A, any blue
wire to B, etc.  The + is your positive output and the _ is the negative
output.

Good Luck,     Brent Peterson


         |------->l--------A-------->l-------|
         |                                                      |
_----|------->l--------B-------->l-------|------+
         |                                                      |
         |------->l--------C-------->l-------|


----- Original Message -----
From: <CBrant5618@...>
To: <nomadger@...>; <awea-wind-home@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 4:04 PM
Subject: [a-w-h] Re: I need help again !


> Hello  all,
>   Well i cut some off my prop, glued the magnets, stood the 85ft tower
back
> up, now i have a new emergency, I forgot how my rectifiers are wired! I
had
> them all out and unwired because i had new ones to install but now i cant
> remember if the are wired in a delta configuration or what. As you
probably
> know there are 3 Blue wires coming down from the Whisper 600. In the
control
> panel there are 2 wires coming off each of them to go to the rectifiers
(3).
> Does each pair of 2 go to the same rectifier? OR, are they in a delta
config?
> I will be checking mail this evening while i experiment.  Thanks again.
>   Glad I'm not working on a 30kw unit.   : )
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> You have received this message because you are a subscriber to the
American Wind Energy Association's Home Energy Systems list.  To view
previous messages from the list, subscribe to a daily digest of the list, or
stop receiving the list by e-mail (and read it on the Web), go to
<http://www.egroups.com/list/awea-wind-home>.  To unsubscribe from the list,
send a blank message to <awea-wind-home-unsubscribe@egroups.com>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>

Hello  all,
   Well i cut some off my prop, glued the magnets, stood the 85ft tower back
up, now i have a new emergency, I forgot how my rectifiers are wired! I had
them all out and unwired because i had new ones to install but now i cant
remember if the are wired in a delta configuration or what. As you probably
know there are 3 Blue wires coming down from the Whisper 600. In the control
panel there are 2 wires coming off each of them to go to the rectifiers (3).
Does each pair of 2 go to the same rectifier? OR, are they in a delta config?
I will be checking mail this evening while i experiment.  Thanks again.
   Glad I'm not working on a 30kw unit.   : )

Hope the next year will bring us better winds... and remember year 2000 is
not the twenty first century starting year ... year 2001 will be :))
Have a nice celebration and behave yourself... but if you do not.... send
me a call :))))

						 EDUARDO

Thanks for the christmas greetings Mr. Nybroe

Ken Bosley wrote:
>
> Claus,
> People would have to go into your homepage to find your e mail address.
  ...

Greeting eachother here on the lists would have been just fine Ken

My message released many Christmas greetings to me privately this time,
thanks everybody!

> BTW, Many years ago, one of the Micon brothers, Earling? or Peder,
> included your many multi bladed machines into their brochures....  or
> was that someone else's machines?

That must have been Erling, and Yes that was my machine in a downwind
version.

--
Claus Nybroe
http://www.windmission.dk
Denmark

Hello friends,
Hope everyone had a good holiday,

I  have received an e-mail that the link on my last post did not work, so
here is the whole paper.

All we need to do is get it to say wind and solar.

Thanks,
Bob Ellison

RE. Ellison
Alternative Energy Systems & Supplies
34642 Countryman Road
Theresa, New York. USA.
                            13691-2076

   Policy Statement on Photovoltaic Interconnection Issues
An ASES Position Paper


Paper author(s): Chris Larsen and Thomas J. Starrs
Date of first publication: October 1999

Participating Organizations: ASES
Look for "ASES" in the Organization Module.

Availability: High
Price:
Content Relevance:
Primary Region / Country: North America
Secondary Region / Country: United States
Contact Person: Chris Larsen
Organization: North Carolina Solar Center at NC State University
Street/P.O.Box: Box 7401
City: Raleigh, North Carolina
Postal/Zip code: 27695-7401
Country: United States

E-Mail: ncsun@...
Fax: +1 (919) 515-5778







The American Solar Energy Society (ASES), America's leading solar membership
organization - one with technical and policy credentials - believes there is
a pressing need for a simplified, uniform set of interconnection standards
for small-scale renewable energy systems. This policy statement specifically
addresses customer-owned photovoltaic (PV) systems of 100kW or less. With
the proliferation of state net metering laws and the growing number of home
and business owners interested in small-scale, grid-connected PV systems,
there is a need for consensus on a reasonable set of requirements so that
the burdens associated with interconnection can be removed. ASES believes
that laws establishing net metering and utility commission rulings
implementing net metering should contain the principles and policies below.
Moreover, ASES and the renewable energy community want to work with
utilities to help them adopt appropriate standards and believe that
voluntary implementation is a preferred alternative to legislation.
Interconnection requirements include both technical and contractual issues
that define the relationship between the small system owner and the utility.
Although 30 U.S. states now require net metering, many of these states have
not addressed interconnection issues, thereby effectively limiting the
implementation of net metering and slowing the growth of the grid-connected
PV market. Although this policy statement addresses photovoltaic systems
specifically, ASES supports the development of simplified, reasonable
standards for all customer-owned, grid-connected renewable energy systems.
Many electric utilities have expressed legitimate concerns regarding the
safety of small-scale, customer-owned generating facilities. However,
utility concerns regarding safety and power quality have been addressed
through the development of technical standards for interconnection of PV
systems. These standards have been developed by national standards-setting
authorities, including the Underwriters Laboratories (UL) and the Institute
of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE). Both UL 1741 and IEEE 929,
which are discussed below, were developed through a lengthy,
consensus-based, collaborative process with the participation of utilities,
inverter manufacturers, the national energy laboratories and other
stakeholders. Utility interactive inverters being produced today are able to
meet the exacting standards of UL 1741 and IEEE 929, which include
sophisticated and reliable anti-islanding protocols for non-islanding
inverters, as well as power quality requirements. Anti-islanding algorithms
for non-islanding inverters include not only under- and over-voltage and
frequency trip settings, but also active feedback loops that force the
frequency to drift outside of the trip points within a few cycles of when
utility power is cut off or disconnected from the inverter. Inverters
meeting UL 1741 and IEEE 929, therefore, do not need additional protective
equipment to prevent islanding or filters to maintain power quality.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----


ASES Guiding Principles on Interconnection
- Safety and Reliability. Interconnection standards should ensure the safety
of system owners, utility personnel and the general public, as well as the
safety and reliability of all equipment.

- Simplicity. The interconnection process should be simple for both system
owner and utility.

- Fairness. The process must be fair and reasonable to the small-scale
system owner who has invested in technology that will improve the
environment.

- Standardization. For technologies that do not change from state to state
or across utility territories, there should be uniformity of standards from
state to state or across utility territories.

- Cost Efficiency. The interconnection process should avoid imposing
unnecessary and inappropriate expenses on system owners, system installers
or utilities.

ASES Recommended Policies

General

All utilities should adopt uniform, simplified requirements for small PV
systems under 100kW. While utilities already are required to interconnect
small-scale renewable energy systems under the federal PURPA law, nearly all
of the interconnection documentation and standards established for PURPA
Qualifying Facilities (QFs) are inappropriately burdensome for small-scale
renewable energy systems. Utilities, therefore, should establish a separate
set of interconnection requirements that are appropriate for these smaller
customer-generators.

Technical

Technical standards should be based on UL 1741 and IEEE 929. The two leading
technical documents addressing the interconnection of small-scale PV systems
with the utility grid are Underwriters Laboratories Standard 1741 Static
Inverters and Charge Controllers for Use in Photovoltaic Power Systems and
the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) 929 Recommended
Practice for Utility Interface of Photovoltaic (PV) Systems. These are
national, consensus-based documents developed by representatives from
utilities, inverter manufacturers, end users and the national laboratories.
These documents address all legitimate safety and power quality issues
including:

- Islanding - Power factor - DC injection - Voltage flicker - Harmonic
Distortion - Automatic reconnection

No other protection equipment or testing beyond that specified by IEEE
929/UL 1741 should be required of grid-tied PV systems under 100kW. Further
protection requirements such as isolation transformers, on-site testing,
engineering reports, extra relays or mandatory periodic maintenance tests
should not be allowed for PV systems under 100kW. In accordance with IEEE
929, voltage set points for systems larger than 10kW may be altered by the
utility to accommodate system-specific needs. The utility may, with customer
consent, arrange for periodic maintenance checks, although for static power
converters, such maintenance checks are largely unnecessary.

Manual external disconnects should be required only for PV systems over 10
kW. For UL listed, non-islanding inverters, which already have external AC
disconnects built-in, another external AC disconnect is redundant. While
redundancy is often considered desirable where safety is concerned, an extra
AC disconnect is an inappropriate financial burden for owners of small-scale
PV systems. However, utilities that may require an external, lockable AC
disconnect should be allowed to install such equipment at the utility?s
expense.

Interconnected PV systems should be installed by a licensed electrical
contractor according to the National Electrical Code. Article 690 of the
National Electrical Code (NEC) addresses the proper procedures for the
installation of grid-tied and grid-independent PV systems. While UL listing
ensures the proper design of particular system components, the system still
must be installed in accordance with the NEC to ensure safe operation.
   Although 30 U.S. states now require net metering, many of these states
have not addressed interconnection issues, thereby effectively limiting the
implementation of net metering and slowing the growth of the grid-connected
PV market. The American Solar Energy Society and the renewable energy
community want to work with utilities to help them adopt appropriate
standards and believe that voluntary implementation is a preferred
alternative to legislation.


Contractual

The interconnection agreement between the customer-generator and their
utility should be as simple as possible. It is in the interest of both the
customer and the utility that the paperwork involved in establishing an
interconnection agreement be easily read and understood by non-attorneys.
Simplified interconnection agreements are already being used by a number of
utilities around the country and are as short as one page. Customers should
not be required to have their interconnection agreements signed by a
Professional Engineer or an attorney. Such an agreement should ask the
customer-generator to provide the following:

- Name, address and account number - Rated system AC output - Inverter
manufacturer and model - Name and license number of installer - Confirmation
that inverter is UL 1741 approved

- Name and jurisdiction of inspector, if applicable

ASES has developed a model interconnection agreement for use with PV systems
10kW or smaller and another one for use with systems between 10 and 100kW.
The model agreement is for smaller systems included at the end of this
policy statement. The agreement for larger systems is posted at the ASES web
site: www.ases.org.

Contact with the utility. Utilities should designate a specific point of
contact - an office or an individual employee - responsible for working with
customers and PV system installers on interconnection issues. This would
address the frequent complaint among PV system owners that their requests
for interconnection have been ignored, delayed or passed off from one person
to another, leading to lengthy delays before the customer receives an
appropriate response.

Processing of interconnection agreements. Utilities should take no more than
ten (10) working days to notify a customer if an interconnection agreement
has been accepted once the agreement has been submitted by the
customer-generator. If a utility wishes to inspect a system prior to its
interconnection, it should do so at its own expense and within ten working
days of submittal of the agreement by the customer. The utility should
notify the customer-generator of an upcoming inspection, so that the
customer can have the system installer present if he or she so chooses.


Access to customer premises. Utilities should have no greater access to a
customer?s property than they already have in order to inspect meters or
utility lines. Once the interconnection agreement has been approved by the
utility, if a utility wishes to inspect a system, they should have a
reasonable cause and should have the consent of the customer.

Insurance and indemnification. Customer-generators should not be required to
purchase additional liability insurance if he or she already has coverage of
at least $100,000 (for residential systems) or $250,000 (for commercial
systems). Customer-generators should not be required to indemnify their
utility.

Conflict resolution. A state or local third party - in most cases the state
utility commission or (for publicly-owned utilities) the utility board -
should establish a simplified, streamlined process for the resolution of
conflicts regarding interconnection requirements between utilities and
owners of small-scale, grid-connected PV systems.

The complete report can be accessed on the web at the address given below
Related Links : http://www.ases.org/solarguide/photovoltaic.htm

Claus,
People would have to go into your homepage to find your e mail address.
AWEA selected to scramble the e mail addresses in the message texts.
That is why you see   -   instead of " y  " in my e mail address of
windenergy@...
I stick my e mail address in the title of messages sometimes because it
does not get scrambled there.

The e groups e mail address list is top secret.  I have no idea who
contracts AWEA's to have these e groups in the first place.
I am upset that NREL shut down their bulletin board.  All of the
posting there got into nearly every search engine.  But now, when you
click on all of these massive numbers of NREL bulletin board search
engine results, it does not exist any more.  So, besides missing the
NREL boards, the search engines are filled up with NREL board hits that
are all vanished.

I post my US toll free voice mail, and no one responds.
1 800 5 SPRINT 3990662.

I think there is a way to respond to an individual poster through the e
group web site, but, I would not want to do that as e groups would own
your message, and maybe AWEA would have access to it too.

BTW, Many years ago, one of the Micon brothers, Earling? or Peder,
included your many multi bladed machines into their brochures....  or
was that someone else's machines?

en Bosley
Wind Energy Consultant
PO Box 585
Sparks, Maryland 21152
USA

I sent out a Merry Christmas message to the two awea-lists.
There were only two replies, and we must be several hundreds
Agree this is on wind power, Cp-values and economy
Is that really all there is to wind power?
Cultural difference or the fool on the hill?
Feel very poor.
--
Claus Nybroe
http://www.windmission.dk
Denmark

I sent out a Merry Christmas message to the two awea-lists.
There were only two replies, and we must be several hundreds
Agree this is on wind power, Cp-values and economy
Is that really all there is to wind power?
Cultural difference or the fool on the hill?
Feel very poor.
--
Claus Nybroe
http://www.windmission.dk
Denmark

Charles

> I hinged my tower and took it down today (Christmas) and found that a couple
>of the magnets came loose and also the tip of the blade on one side has about
>5 inches rotten on the edge of one tip. I thought of maybe trying to rebuild
>the tip on that side with fiberglass? But it would seem to me that tip speed
>would put alot of stress on any "builtup" tip.

You could build it up with epoxy resin, no problem.  Cut the blade tips
back to sound wood.  Mix the resin with thickening powder.

> So, I am thinking of cutting about 6 inches of the blade on each side and
>the question i have is......will it burn up my alternator?

no it would not.  It would make the blade less powerful, so safer and
easier to live with, and it might last longer,  but you would get less out
of the machine compared to the full blade while it is running.

>I realize that it
>will turn faster......how much faster i have no idea and , will it still
>govern (tilt up) at a safe rpm ?

It will not run faster, unless you disconnect the load.  A smaller diameter
rotor with narrower blades would indeed run *best* at a higher rpm speed,
but even if in this case it would not *actually* run faster because it
would not have enough torque to crank the alterntor.  Blade speed is
actually controlled (limited) by the alternator, and by the way the
alternator itself is loaded (the battery).

As for tilting, the lighter blade will allow easier tiliting, but then
again, the relatively lower wind pressure due to smaller size may mean that
it faces into higher winds, and you can get slightly more power in those
higher winds.

>The blade thats on it is a 2 blade (one
>single piece) wood 7 ft.
>I also realize that start up will be at a higher wind speed.

this is one of the downsides.

>I have limited
>funds (broke) so i cannot afford a new prop. Also, any advice on what glue to
>used to glue the magnets back in?

again, epoxy is good.  You may have problems getting it to turn freely
again.  If magnets drag then they will prevent low wind running and they
will overheat and come loose again.

> and......what about leading edge tape? any
>substitutes?

epoxy lasts longer than wood, so you could do without.

Hugh

Scoraig,Scotland.
http://homepages.enterprise.net/hugh0piggott/

01854 633 286 (phone)
01854 633 233 (fax)
07713157600 (mobile)

Michael, List,

I think Tom Gray is sensitive to the issue of censorship, but it's always
good for someone to remind us to be vigilant. Tom's message didn't say
directly that he would censor Ken. I don't think he would do that.

While I don't always like seeing dozens of messages that "may" be off topic
I agree with Michael that the sender should have the right to post them. As
someone who posts the occassional unpopular message I think Ken should have
his venues open to him on both lists.

If people are bothered by the so-called spam of unpopular messages may I
suggest using the www access to egroups.

Further, I don't think of this lists as big wind and little wind. I view
them or as centralized wind and distributed wind. Big wind topics are
appropriate to this list if they have some relevance to the distributed use
of wind energy. Whether we like it or not politics and energy issues in
general affect how or whether we use distributed wind turbines.

Paul Gipe
Someone who follows topics in Chile and is sensitive to the post-Pinochet
climate of discourse.


Paul Gipe
208 S. Green St., #5; Tehachapi CA 93561-1741 USA; ph: +661 822 9150; fax:
+661 822 8452; pgipe@.... Author of Wind Power for Home & Business
(1993), Wind Energy Comes of Age (1995), Wind Energy Basics (1999).
<http://rotor.fb12.tu-berlin.de/personen/paul.html>

Hello and merry CHRISTmas to all.
I have a problem that i need expert advice on please. I have a Whisper 600
that has been dormant on the tower several months now because due to certain
circumstances i could not get it down at the time that it stopped turning.
  I hinged my tower and took it down today (Christmas) and found that a couple
of the magnets came loose and also the tip of the blade on one side has about
5 inches rotten on the edge of one tip. I thought of maybe trying to rebuild
the tip on that side with fiberglass? But it would seem to me that tip speed
would put alot of stress on any "builtup" tip.
  So, I am thinking of cutting about 6 inches of the blade on each side and
the question i have is......will it burn up my alternator? I realize that it
will turn faster......how much faster i have no idea and , will it still
govern (tilt up) at a safe rpm ? The blade thats on it is a 2 blade (one
single piece) wood 7 ft.
I also realize that start up will be at a higher wind speed. I have limited
funds (broke) so i cannot afford a new prop. Also, any advice on what glue to
used to glue the magnets back in? and......what about leading edge tape? any
substitutes?
Thanks,
  Charles Brantner

Let's hope Trace is reading. That start switch is a piece of xxxxx. I
hadn't had my DR1524 up for more than 15 minutes when I broke the start
switch. Trace was good about fixing the board when I sent it back. But not
being a jock with electronics I was fixed to remove the whole xxxx inverter
and send it back when Peter Freere hiked in with his wife and kids. He
said, no problem mate (or something to that effect) and removed the board
for me. Thanks Peter.

The Trace is working fine now butI am very careful with the stop switch.

Paul Gipe
Paul Gipe
208 S. Green St., #5; Tehachapi CA 93561-1741 USA; ph: +661 822 9150; fax:
+661 822 8452; pgipe@.... Author of Wind Power for Home & Business
(1993), Wind Energy Comes of Age (1995), Wind Energy Basics (1999).
<http://rotor.fb12.tu-berlin.de/personen/paul.html>

Our Polish collegue Pawel yesterday asked, how we had gone through the
Danish hurricane.
When told his answer was:

Your house is dry and your family is fine, one cannot have more than
that for Christmas.

Merry Christmas everyone!
--
Claus Nybroe
http://www.windmission.dk
Denmark