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Anybody for writing what XML should have been?   Topic List   < Prev Topic  |  Next Topic >
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Re: Anybody for writing what XML should have been?

It seems to me that there are three distinct kinds of jobs that have
been smushed together into XML. Sometimes such merging of
functionality results in synergies, as when PL/1 smushed together
features from Fortran, Cobol, Algol, and Lisp, creating a mess. But
a mess suggesting potential synergies between these elements that
inspired many clean descendents like C and Pascal. In particular,
combining heap-allocated pointer structures from Lisp with
struct/record concept from (believe it or not) Cobol was very
powerful, and was one of the steps to objects.

The best we can hope for from XML at this point is for it to become
the PL/1 of textual data representation. By merging these functions,
perhaps someone will be inspired by some synergy I don't see and
create something both new and valuable. Frankly, I doubt it. I
think XML is simply an irredeemable incoherent mess, and the three
distinct jobs remain better done separately by the three distinct
tools that have traditionally done these jobs. Though, I think, XML
can suggest some enhacements these tools. The three tools?

1) Attributed text. This is the job traditionally associated with a
number of text formats, including FrameMaker's, rtf, and others.
HTML has clearly taken over this world, and if one wants to be
compatible with something, HTML, not XML, is clearly the huge
installed base to be compatible with.

2) S-Expressions. As John McCarthy (creator of Lisp) says "XML is
just S-Expressions, only ten times as verbose". (And, I'd add, about
one hundred times as complex.) As I've said on this list before, if
you need to say you're "XML compatible", and there are many marketing
reasons to do this, Minimal-XML is exciting *because* it removes all
the extraneous crap from XML, leaving just the S-Expressions and the
compatibility. The one cool thing XML does add to traditional
S-Expressions (that Minimal-XML, wisely at this point, leaves out) is
the notion of grammars over S-Expressions. But S-Expressions in
ANTLR http://www.antlr.org/ do this tree grammar thing much better
than XML does, and does it over actual Lisp-like S-Expressions. For
those that don't need XML compatibility, I recommend ANTLR.

3) Object serialization. Both Java and CORBA have created well known
binary serialization formats. Java's is unnecessarily complex, and
has the problem that it's perceived to be language specific (it's
not). CORBA's understandably is crippled, being part of CORBA.
Worse, both are defined only as binary formats. Key to XML's
marketing success is that it's a textual format, and one can
therefore use text in books as an example of the encoding. The world
needs a good language neutral flexible abstract object serialization
format with two concrete syntaxes: an efficient binary one, and a
readadble/editable textual one. Unlike XML, XML/SOAP, or YAML, it
should represent arbitrary graphs straightforwardly. There should be
a full fidelity converter in each direction between these formats. I
suspect such serialization systems already exist, and that some are
good, but none are yet widely known. In today's world, where XML
compatibility is such a crushing issue, I doubt any will become
widely known. But perhaps.




Sun Jul 29, 2001 2:41 pm

markm@...
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Hello guys and gals. Long time no chat about SMLs. I have severed my political ties with the XML world in pursuit of a life of creative self-expression....
Joe Lapp
joe@...
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Jul 28, 2001
12:13 am

... Hi Joe! Good to hear from you. ... Sure, it's not like there's a lot of traffic on this list these days :~) Interesting timing ... I'm having a "why oh why...
Michael Champion
mchamp@...
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Jul 28, 2001
2:28 am

... Boohoo! *wink* ... IMHO, the problem with XML isn't its syntax... it's the bandwagon. XML this, XML that. It has to make you think... if XML is so good,...
Clark C . Evans
cce@...
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Jul 28, 2001
4:24 am

... On a related note, if this isn't what you're saying, there's a lot more to get right than just the technology. But at least we have a chance starting...
Joe Lapp
joe@...
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Jul 29, 2001
12:25 am

... Hi Michael. Glad to see you're still hanging around. I think the people on this list, hanging around like you, comprise the interested group we need....
Joe Lapp
joe@...
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Jul 29, 2001
12:22 am

... Correction: Only '<' is escaped, and it is done as '<<'. Sorry! ~Joe...
Joe Lapp
joe@...
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Jul 29, 2001
12:33 am

... I think this is a pretty fair assessment. For those who have disregarded YAML, it has gone through a fairly serious revision lately, mostly due to the...
Clark C . Evans
cce@...
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Jul 29, 2001
5:02 am

... See: http://www.tbradford.org/FutureOfXML.txt http://www.tbradford.org/clean-namespaces.txt For some of my thoughts. In the past week, I've heard somebody...
Tom Bradford
bradford@...
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Jul 28, 2001
2:43 am

Hello Joe. ... I'd really like to hear your proposal! ... It's been simplifed quite a bit lately... you may want to take a look at the newish draft Oren posted...
Clark C . Evans
cce@...
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Jul 28, 2001
3:42 am

... From: Joe Lapp <joe@...> ... PXML subset of XML : http://www.pault.com/pault/pxml ... users who don't have access to a manual (or who don't...
Paul Tchistopolskii
pault12@...
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Jul 28, 2001
5:30 am

Welcome back, Joe. Done with vesting, eh?;-p I still like XML, but have bad feelings about where it is going. XML's relationship with W3C is both a blessing...
Don Park
donpark@...
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Jul 28, 2001
6:57 am

... [Good ones]. ... [Good directions] ... SML-DEV has fallen very quiet lately, hasn't it? :-) ... Well, in this case YAML should be just for you, as it was ...
Oren Ben-Kiki
orenbk@...
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Jul 29, 2001
6:28 am

It seems to me that there are three distinct kinds of jobs that have been smushed together into XML. Sometimes such merging of functionality results in...
Mark S. Miller
markm@...
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Jul 29, 2001
2:41 pm

... In the XML world, I think the analog of ANTLR is XSLT/XPath where "syntax directed translation" pattern becomes "structure directed translation", since...
Clark C . Evans
cce@...
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Jul 29, 2001
4:14 pm

... In "RDF Applications with Prolog", http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2001/07/25/prologrdf.html?page=1 , they show the next layer: "knowledge directed translation",...
Sjoerd Visscher
sjoerd@...
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Jul 29, 2001
10:21 pm

... Nice separation. I see the application domains for (1) and (3), and I guess (2) has its place (Lisp still being alive and kicking) although it is probably...
Oren Ben-Kiki
orenbk@...
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Jul 29, 2001
3:37 pm

... Don't think of #2 as a niche. Think of it as a universal parse-tree reprentation. When you don't need a specialized surface syntax, you can easily design...
Mark S. Miller
markm@...
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Jul 29, 2001
4:09 pm

... From: "Mark S. Miller" <markm@...> To: <sml-dev@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 10:41 AM Subject: [sml-dev] Re: Anybody for writing...
Michael Champion
mchamp@...
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Jul 29, 2001
4:14 pm

http://www.tameable.com...
roster@...
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Aug 2, 2001
4:23 pm

... that is incompatible with XML, I think it would be wise for us to start by tackling the niches in which XML does poorly.< ... chicken and egg problem (if...
gizmotron@...
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Aug 13, 2001
8:38 pm

sml-dev group, I've just discovered the semanticWeb group. I'm going to look into RDF and how it might or might not work with MTML. Best regards, Mark Brownell...
gizmotron@...
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Aug 17, 2001
4:59 pm

... OK, so I added RDF/Dublin Core portaling to my on-line creation. Vn 2.0.6 of the sub-browser is up and running. You can download the freeware application...
gizmotron@...
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Aug 20, 2001
3:04 pm
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