Where am I?
Well, as a matter of fact I'm sitting in a motel room in Fort Lauderdale, and in
about 12 hours I'll probably be aboard the gigantic new Oasis of the Seas for
the next 11 days.  ;-)

And, satellite charges being what they are, most of my groups will probably not
be getting many messages approved while I'm onboard the ship....!  :-)

I expect to be back home in Dallas by the 21st of December, but will be back to
the USA by Dec 12th so should be at least somewhat online again by then...!

Charles Richmond wrote:
> On Nov 30, 2009, at 3:48 PM, Paul Bartlett wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Charles Richmond wrote:
>>
>>> What happened to the traffic on this Yahoo Group??? No one seems to
>>> have posted since late October.
>> On some newsgroups, especially for restricted topics such as SNOBOL,
>> traffic tends to wax and wane. Let's be honest: SNOBOL is not the
>> hottest topic in the usenet universe. If you have any particular
>> issues or topics, please post them.
>>
>>
>
> I suppose you are right about news traffic coming in spurts for
> specialized groups. I was just surprised that *nothing* had been
> posted in over a month.
>
> --
> +----------------------------------------+
> |     Charles and Francis Richmond       |
> |                                        |
> |  plano dot net at aquaporin4 dot com   |
> +----------------------------------------+
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--

Gordon Peterson II
http://personal.terabites.com
1977-2007:  Thirty year anniversary of local area networking

On Nov 30, 2009, at 3:48 PM, Paul Bartlett wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Charles Richmond wrote:
>
> > What happened to the traffic on this Yahoo Group??? No one seems to
> > have posted since late October.
>
> On some newsgroups, especially for restricted topics such as SNOBOL,
> traffic tends to wax and wane. Let's be honest: SNOBOL is not the
> hottest topic in the usenet universe. If you have any particular
> issues or topics, please post them.
>
>

I suppose you are right about news traffic coming in spurts for
specialized groups. I was just surprised that *nothing* had been
posted in over a month.

--
+----------------------------------------+
|     Charles and Francis Richmond       |
|                                        |
|  plano dot net at aquaporin4 dot com   |
+----------------------------------------+

On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Charles Richmond wrote:

> What happened to the traffic on this Yahoo Group??? No one seems to
> have posted since late October.

On some newsgroups, especially for restricted topics such as SNOBOL,
traffic tends to wax and wane.  Let's be honest: SNOBOL is not the
hottest topic in the usenet universe.  If you have any particular
issues or topics, please post them.

--
Paul Bartlett

Charles Richmond wrote:
>
>
> What happened to the traffic on this Yahoo Group??? No one seems to
> have posted since late October
>
Lurking here for someone to say anything while happily writing
applications, many small and some humungous to do important
jobs and have fun doing that.

John.

What happened to the traffic on this Yahoo Group??? No one seems to
have posted since late October.

--
+----------------------------------------+
|     Charles and Francis Richmond       |
|                                        |
|  plano dot net at aquaporin4 dot com   |
+----------------------------------------+

There were programs that were modifications of the SNOBOL4
interpreter (I think) which had additions to allow viewing of the
internal data structures created. One of these was called "Window to
Hell". I think that the other was called SPIDER-10.

Are any of these available for home computer SNOBOL4, say for Phil
Budne's SNOBOL4 in C???

There are some University of Arizona documents concerning these two,
but I can *not* find them on the university website. Perhaps someone
here knows where these documents are stored.

--
+----------------------------------------+
|     Charles and Francis Richmond       |
|                                        |
|  plano dot net at aquaporin4 dot com   |
+----------------------------------------+

hey guys really thanks

--- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Peterson <gep2@...> wrote:
>
> Boyko Bantchev wrote:
> > 2009/9/17 Gordon Peterson <gep2@...>
> >

<snip>

I can't say anything about .djvu, because I've had no contact with it besides
reading the conversations on this e-mail list in the past few days.  However, I
can say a little about Acrobat.  While creating some short test documents with
an early Acrobat version in 1995, I liked that you could build links to other
parts of the same document, or between documents.  I also liked that the
document's appearance didn't change, regardless of the fonts installed on the
computer it was displayed on, because the fonts were built into the document. 
I've recently learned that an Acrobat document is actually a compressed
PostScript file.

Adobe is the developer of PostScript and of Acrobat, and other fine programs. 
Also, while Adobe was not the original developer of FrameMaker, Adobe has owned
and developed that publishing software for about 15 years.

With the software I have now, I can produce an Acrobat document in either of two
ways: through version 3 of OpenOffice.org Writer (or a recent version of
StarWriter), or with version 7 of FrameMaker.  Using documents I created three
years ago and since, I compared the sizes of Acrobat documents produced by
different pieces of software, and found that for nearly-identical Acrobat "final
products" I had made using different software, the largest was twice the size of
the smallest, in terms of filesize.  The smallest version was the one I made in
FrameMaker, although I probably imported a Word document into FrameMaker to get
started, and after making the necessary adjustments, used "Save As" to .PDF.

My point is that if filesize is a relevant point of comparison between .PDF and
.DJVU, make sure to compare oranges to oranges: smallest version to smallest, or
whatever.

Also, I wanted to comment on what's STANDARD and what's not.  How many of us
still use WordStar?  dBase?  In the mid-80s, those were the standards. 
(Incidentally, I once took out a car loan from the "Perpetual Savings Bank"; by
the time I was ready to sell the car, the bank was GONE.

-Mark Laster

For what it's worth, here is my contribution.

(1) I agree that the site hosting these books should give a link or a suggestion
where to download a suitable viewer. It is less well known than pdf, but even if
it weren't, would there be any harm in providing a link just in case? If there
are people who don't know about pdf then that may perhaps be an argument for
sites that host pdf files to give links to a viewer, but it is not an argument
for djv-hosting sites not to do so.

(2) On the other hand I think one or two people seem to be confusing a (valid)
criticism of the way that site is run with a criticism of djvu. Also, although
nobody has said so explicitly, I get the feeling one or two people may be
implicitly blaming download problems on djvu. Whether by ftp, tftp, http, or
other means, I can't off hand think of a situation where file download is
sensitive to the format of the file: normally file transfer just accepts the
file as a string of bits.

(3) When I was looking for a suitable djvu viewer I found (amongst other things)
djvu solo. It was described as "old" software, but I nevertheless decided to
look further, and found that it did not read the latest version, so I decided
not to bother with it. I did not time myself, but I doubt that it took me two
minutes to find this much information.

(4) I have had problems with pdf files because the latest version was not
readable by the version of Adobe reader I had. Easy enough, download the latest
version? No, because the latest version would not run on the version of Windows
on the computer I was using. Djvu is not the only format that can cause
version-related problems.

(4) Has anyone actually experienced any difficulty or problem caused by the djvu
format? (Note, NOT by lack of information provided by a hosting web site, NOT by
download problems, NOT by using outdated software, by the use of djvu.)

Michael Davis

----- Original Message -----

From: Gluck, Kurt A

To: snobol@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 7:56 AM

Subject: [snobol] DjUu - PDF - The "Mother test"

Folks

 

While I would much rather reading about snobol then this argument, I guess I have been pulled in by the inability of folks to understand when something is ‘known’ vs ‘not so known’ . My preferred method is my ‘mother test’  - if my Mom knows what it is, then it is ‘known’ if not it is ‘not so known’.  

 

I am afraid to say that my mom, knows about needing acrobat for PDF’s, and when presented with one with a new PC she will call me and ask me to come back home (from NJ to NY)  to fix her computer – while DjVu, I am sad to report has not risen to that level – and she would think of it as some sort of attempt to take over her PC by the forces of evil.

 

Now, I do not propose that my Mom should be used as a universal standard (I mean not without funding J ) – but think of it as a gedanken test.

 

Kurt

 

Boyko Bantchev wrote:
> 2009/9/17 Gordon Peterson <gep2@...>
>> This is an example of the problem... a website that is going to use a
>> less-well-known format ought to include a link to a page suggesting which
>> software is reliable and good to work with that format. Rather than leaving
>> everything to chance, and us all wondering which software to use, and being
>> frustrated by sites and programs that don't work well.
>>
>> --- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, "w8rd" <rayd@...> wrote:
>>> After jumping thru hoops to get there, message from DjVuSolo...
>>> DjVu Decoder: Cannot decode DjVu files with version >= 25
>>> Nice. What a waste of time.
>
> I am sure there are people that don't know of .pdf, yet by far
> not every website tells you how to read it. The same holds of
> .ps, .dvi, .ai, .tif, .rss, .man, .cab, .tgz, .avi, .svg etc …
> let alone .sno :) Can you imagine webpages assiduously furnished
> with all the relevant explanations?

I disagree... PDF is VERY, very widely recognized and used. While strictly
speaking you are correct, ("there ARE (a nonzero number of) people who don't
know of .pdf") it is a very small fraction of those who are unfamiliar with .djvu.

Also, for PDF there is ONE standard player (Adobe Acrobat Player, which is
freeware) which is almost universally used.

For DJVU it appears that there are numerous different players, which differ in
details and price, and therefore for the uninitiated there is likely to be
considerable confusion regarding where to get a suitable player, and which one
is the "good" one to get.

People who are promoting/pioneering the use of less-standard formats have an
obligation, I believe, to educate people about that format... in a way that
people who use de-facto standards do not have.

> These days, it is anything but uncommon to encounter something
> you didn't know of. Most often, it is not hard to find out what
> you need yourself – there are plenty of sources of information
> around.

Right, and many of those differ. For example, when I did my search, a
NON-freeware alternative (costing about $30) is what turned up. People who
generate files for wider public consumption in a less-standard format presumably
know which software they imagine the public "should" use. That knowledge and
experience, I believe, should be shared on such a site.

It doesn't have to be bulky or cumbersome, it can be as simple as a link saying
something like "This site hosts files in .djvu format, which is supported by
open-source freeware viewers. Click here for more information and recommendations."

And for that matter, note that every site I'm aware of which includes .sno
source code ALSO has links to suitable compilers. Do you know of any that doesn't?

> Another option is to ask, as you did. And I believe
> you got useful answers from several people. Is that not enough?
> How are you ‘left wondering’ and ‘frustrated’?

I only asked AFTER I found information on a non-freeware viewer, and had decided
not to purchase that one.

> Now, ‘w8rd’ is complaining about DjVu Solo not working for him
> (her? it?). Why and to whom he/she/it is complaining is a deep
> mystery to me, as no one here suggested using this particular
> program.

We are discussing the format, and confusion about what viewers are suitable and
desirable. The complaint is ABSOLUTELY germane, and is ontopic to the thread.

w8rd clearly FOUND (somehow) a link to DjVu Solo. Which did not work for them.
This is PRECISELY an example of the same type of confusion that I had, which
could have been avoided if the site had given better guidance.

> Moreover, the webpage http://djvu.org/resources
> lists DjVu Solo as ‘old DjVu software’.

OK, but when you're just looking for something to read .djvu format, there are a
LOT of references that come up. (Or one, or whatever)... but NOT just the
"magic" one you reference with the key nugget of information.

> As I see it, no website
> author is responsible for w8rd's misfortune. And certainly not
> djvu as technology and file format.

Then clearly we differ on our opinions on that point. Again, people who post
software in less-familiar formats ought to include a link on the page that
answers the (obvious!!) question... ".djvu? what's that?"

Please don't put words in my mouth, or misrepresent my position, as stated.

Boyko Bantchev wrote:
> 2009/9/18 Gordon Peterson <gep2@...>
>> As direct and easy as possible? No. That would be a link on the download page
>> for .djvu files, offering suggestions on what viewers are good, and where
they
>> can be downloaded.
>
> Ok, I stand corrected.  I should have said ‘as direct and easy
> as possible for those who, in the absence of a link to a viewer,
> are not so lazy as to type 5 keystrokes (including the Enter)
> to discover it themselves’ …
>
> The point being that it is extremely hard to take seriously your
> claims that searching for a viewer is difficult and confusing.
> Indisputably, it is not.
>
>> I've been on the Internet for more than 14 years, and earn my llving as a
>> computer programmer and systems consultant to businesses.
>
> Just ‘being somewhere’ does not create competence.  It depends on
> what one has been doing there.  It is quite apparent – from your
> (lack of) knowledge about e-book data formats and e-book sizes –
> that your experience has not much to do with e-book repositories
> or reading (let alone creating) scanned documents.
>
>> I don't think you can possibly pretend that .djvu files are anything
>> remotely as well-established, or familiar to current users, as .pdf
>> files are.
>
> And I am not saying that djvu is as popular as pdf, just that it
> is popular enough – especially among those used to reading scanned
> books.  And if somebody still happens to be new to djvu, it is
> trivially easy to find a viewer, as already demonstrated.
>
>> ... my previous unfamiliarity with .djvu files REFLECTS the relative
>> lack of prominence of .djvu format files worldwide ...
>
> It can reflect nothing but your own (also relative) ignorance about
> document file formats.
>
>> I wouldn't dispute that I approach problem solving in a way that is different
>> (and, I feel, better than) many "ordinary" people. And I don't have any
problem
>> at all in the use of SNOBOL4/SPITBOL, even though the language is
>> "less-standard" (or, more accurately, less familiar) than things like C, C++
....
>
> I am sure you are excellent Snobol programmer.  I have been,
> and am going to be interested in your opinion on matters
> concerning Snobol.  But on the topic being discussed in this
> thread I beg to differ with you.  First, because djvu is either
> known to a person – and indeed known to many – or is very easy
> to start to make use of.  Second, because I believe that
> everyone of us is responsible for his own education, and that
> if web page holders' business was to provide us with reference
> to the utmost detail, that would be both unhealthy for us and
> impractical for them.

--

Gordon Peterson II
http://personal.terabites.com
1977-2007:  Thirty year anniversary of local area networking

I still think this DjVu discussion should take place off-line,
but I can't resist this one. Why should anyone even bother
with 5 keystrokes? Microsoft will spend millions trying
to convince the world that Bing is a better search engine
than Google. Do you think it will work?. There were better
networking protocols than Ethernet, but it was free and
accepted. But apparently the DjVu community seems
to think that it is clearly a superior thing, and we are all
idiots for not realizing that. The hostility of the DjVu
advocates almost guarantee that it will fall by the
wayside.

Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Boyko Bantchev" <boykobb@...>
To: <snobol@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: [snobol] Re: DjVu


> 2009/9/18 Gordon Peterson <gep2@...>
>> As direct and easy as possible? No. That would be a link on the download
>> page
>> for .djvu files, offering suggestions on what viewers are good, and where
>> they
>> can be downloaded.
>
> Ok, I stand corrected.  I should have said ‘as direct and easy
> as possible for those who, in the absence of a link to a viewer,
> are not so lazy as to type 5 keystrokes (including the Enter)
> to discover it themselves’ …
>
> The point being that it is extremely hard to take seriously your
> claims that searching for a viewer is difficult and confusing.
> Indisputably, it is not.
>
>> I've been on the Internet for more than 14 years, and earn my llving as a
>> computer programmer and systems consultant to businesses.
>
> Just ‘being somewhere’ does not create competence.  It depends on
> what one has been doing there.  It is quite apparent – from your
> (lack of) knowledge about e-book data formats and e-book sizes –
> that your experience has not much to do with e-book repositories
> or reading (let alone creating) scanned documents.
>
>> I don't think you can possibly pretend that .djvu files are anything
>> remotely as well-established, or familiar to current users, as .pdf
>> files are.
>
> And I am not saying that djvu is as popular as pdf, just that it
> is popular enough – especially among those used to reading scanned
> books.  And if somebody still happens to be new to djvu, it is
> trivially easy to find a viewer, as already demonstrated.
>
>> ... my previous unfamiliarity with .djvu files REFLECTS the relative
>> lack of prominence of .djvu format files worldwide ...
>
> It can reflect nothing but your own (also relative) ignorance about
> document file formats.
>
>> I wouldn't dispute that I approach problem solving in a way that is
>> different
>> (and, I feel, better than) many "ordinary" people. And I don't have any
>> problem
>> at all in the use of SNOBOL4/SPITBOL, even though the language is
>> "less-standard" (or, more accurately, less familiar) than things like C,
>> C++ ....
>
> I am sure you are excellent Snobol programmer.  I have been,
> and am going to be interested in your opinion on matters
> concerning Snobol.  But on the topic being discussed in this
> thread I beg to differ with you.  First, because djvu is either
> known to a person – and indeed known to many – or is very easy
> to start to make use of.  Second, because I believe that
> everyone of us is responsible for his own education, and that
> if web page holders' business was to provide us with reference
> to the utmost detail, that would be both unhealthy for us and
> impractical for them.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

2009/9/18 Gordon Peterson <gep2@...>
> As direct and easy as possible? No. That would be a link on the download page
> for .djvu files, offering suggestions on what viewers are good, and where they
> can be downloaded.

Ok, I stand corrected.  I should have said ‘as direct and easy
as possible for those who, in the absence of a link to a viewer,
are not so lazy as to type 5 keystrokes (including the Enter)
to discover it themselves’ …

The point being that it is extremely hard to take seriously your
claims that searching for a viewer is difficult and confusing.
Indisputably, it is not.

> I've been on the Internet for more than 14 years, and earn my llving as a
> computer programmer and systems consultant to businesses.

Just ‘being somewhere’ does not create competence.  It depends on
what one has been doing there.  It is quite apparent – from your
(lack of) knowledge about e-book data formats and e-book sizes –
that your experience has not much to do with e-book repositories
or reading (let alone creating) scanned documents.

> I don't think you can possibly pretend that .djvu files are anything
> remotely as well-established, or familiar to current users, as .pdf
> files are.

And I am not saying that djvu is as popular as pdf, just that it
is popular enough – especially among those used to reading scanned
books.  And if somebody still happens to be new to djvu, it is
trivially easy to find a viewer, as already demonstrated.

> ... my previous unfamiliarity with .djvu files REFLECTS the relative
> lack of prominence of .djvu format files worldwide ...

It can reflect nothing but your own (also relative) ignorance about
document file formats.

> I wouldn't dispute that I approach problem solving in a way that is different
> (and, I feel, better than) many "ordinary" people. And I don't have any
problem
> at all in the use of SNOBOL4/SPITBOL, even though the language is
> "less-standard" (or, more accurately, less familiar) than things like C, C++
....

I am sure you are excellent Snobol programmer.  I have been,
and am going to be interested in your opinion on matters
concerning Snobol.  But on the topic being discussed in this
thread I beg to differ with you.  First, because djvu is either
known to a person – and indeed known to many – or is very easy
to start to make use of.  Second, because I believe that
everyone of us is responsible for his own education, and that
if web page holders' business was to provide us with reference
to the utmost detail, that would be both unhealthy for us and
impractical for them.

Boyko Bantchev wrote:
> 2009/9/17 Gordon Peterson <gep2@...>
>
>> OK, but when you're just looking for something to read .djvu
>> format, there are a LOT of references that come up.  (Or one,
>> or whatever)... but NOT just the "magic" one you reference ...
>
> Magic?  Well, searching for "djvu" in any of:
>     1. Google,
>     2. Yahoo,
>     3. Lycos,
>     4. Wikipedia,
>     …
> or just typing "djvu" in the URL field of my browser (!)
> invariably points me to precisely that page.  Perhaps *that*
> is magic?  I prefer to consider it a very definite indication
> that what you are trying to present as difficult and confusing
> is in fact as direct and easy as possible.

As direct and easy as possible?  No.  That would be a link on the download page
for .djvu files, offering suggestions on what viewers are good, and where they
can be downloaded.

> Anyway, you keep insisting, in essence, that:
>   – the things you know of are standard, the rest are, at best,
>     less-standard, and

I've been on the Internet for more than 14 years, and earn my llving as a
computer programmer and systems consultant to businesses.  While obviously I
don't know *everything* (and nor does anybody else!), I don't think you can
possibly pretend that .djvu files are anything remotely as well-established, or
familiar to current users, as .pdf files are.  It's not MY personal experience
that dictates that lack of something being an established standard;  although my
previous unfamiliarity with .djvu files REFLECTS the relative lack of prominence
of .djvu format files worldwide, compared to .pdf files.

>   – every appearance of a ‘less-standard’ format on every web
>     page ought to be accompanied by links to viewers etc.

That really depends on what the site is for, (and who its target audience is),
how likely someone is to land directly on a given page of the site.  I wouldn't
make absolute statements like "*EVERY* APPEARANCE", but I believe that it is a
design failing of a library website to offer books in a format that is
unfamiliar to (at least) many, without as much as a hint of what software is
suggested as suitable (and recommended) to view or access those downloaded
files.

You may disagree, and that's certainly your right.

> From what I have seen, though, web pages don't behave the way
> you want them –

Of course.  There are a LOT of badly conceived and implemented websites out
there.  No dispute there.

> with regard to tens of file formats.

Sure, and many file formats are widely recognized.

> And somehow
> people seem to find that situation normal.

As far as what's "normal"... you ARE familiar with the acronym SNAFU, right?

> So, perhaps, it is
> your expectations and requirements that are … less-standard.

I wouldn't dispute that I approach problem solving in a way that is different
(and, I feel, better than) many "ordinary" people.  And I don't have any problem
at all in the use of SNOBOL4/SPITBOL, even though the language is
"less-standard" (or, more accurately, less familiar) than things like C, C++, or
Ada.

--

Gordon Peterson II
http://personal.terabites.com
1977-2007:  Thirty year anniversary of local area networking

2009/9/17 Gordon Peterson <gep2@...>

> OK, but when you're just looking for something to read .djvu
> format, there are a LOT of references that come up.  (Or one,
> or whatever)... but NOT just the "magic" one you reference ...

Magic?  Well, searching for "djvu" in any of:
     1. Google,
     2. Yahoo,
     3. Lycos,
     4. Wikipedia,
     …
or just typing "djvu" in the URL field of my browser (!)
invariably points me to precisely that page.  Perhaps *that*
is magic?  I prefer to consider it a very definite indication
that what you are trying to present as difficult and confusing
is in fact as direct and easy as possible.

Anyway, you keep insisting, in essence, that:
   – the things you know of are standard, the rest are, at best,
     less-standard, and
   – every appearance of a ‘less-standard’ format on every web
     page ought to be accompanied by links to viewers etc.
From what I have seen, though, web pages don't behave the way
you want them – with regard to tens of file formats.  And somehow
people seem to find that situation normal.  So, perhaps, it is
your expectations and requirements that are … less-standard.

Boyko Bantchev wrote:
> 2009/9/17 Gordon Peterson <gep2@...>
>> This is an example of the problem... a website that is going to use a
>> less-well-known format ought to include a link to a page suggesting which
>> software is reliable and good to work with that format. Rather than leaving
>> everything to chance, and us all wondering which software to use, and being
>> frustrated by sites and programs that don't work well.
>>
>> --- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, "w8rd" <rayd@...> wrote:
>>> After jumping thru hoops to get there, message from DjVuSolo...
>>> DjVu Decoder: Cannot decode DjVu files with version >= 25
>>> Nice. What a waste of time.
>
> I am sure there are people that don't know of .pdf, yet by far
> not every website tells you how to read it.  The same holds of
> .ps, .dvi, .ai, .tif, .rss, .man, .cab, .tgz, .avi, .svg etc …
> let alone .sno :)  Can you imagine webpages assiduously furnished
> with all the relevant explanations?

I disagree... PDF is VERY, very widely recognized and used.  While strictly
speaking you are correct, ("there ARE (a nonzero number of) people who don't
know of .pdf") it is a very small fraction of those who are unfamiliar with
.djvu.

Also, for PDF there is ONE standard player (Adobe Acrobat Player, which is
freeware) which is almost universally used.

For DJVU it appears that there are numerous different players, which differ in
details and price, and therefore for the uninitiated there is likely to be
considerable confusion regarding where to get a suitable player, and which one
is the "good" one to get.

People who are promoting/pioneering the use of less-standard formats have an
obligation, I believe, to educate people about that format... in a way that
people who use de-facto standards do not have.

> These days, it is anything but uncommon to encounter something
> you didn't know of.  Most often, it is not hard to find out what
> you need yourself – there are plenty of sources of information
> around.

Right, and many of those differ.  For example, when I did my search, a
NON-freeware alternative (costing about $30) is what turned up.  People who
generate files for wider public consumption in a less-standard format presumably
know which software they imagine the public "should" use.  That knowledge and
experience, I believe, should be shared on such a site.

It doesn't have to be bulky or cumbersome, it can be as simple as a link saying
something like "This site hosts files in .djvu format, which is supported by
open-source freeware viewers.  Click here for more information and
recommendations."

And for that matter, note that every site I'm aware of which includes .sno
source code ALSO has links to suitable compilers.  Do you know of any that
doesn't?

> Another option is to ask, as you did.  And I believe
> you got useful answers from several people.  Is that not enough?
> How are you ‘left wondering’ and ‘frustrated’?

I only asked AFTER I found information on a non-freeware viewer, and had decided
not to purchase that one.

> Now, ‘w8rd’ is complaining about DjVu Solo not working for him
> (her? it?).  Why and to whom he/she/it is complaining is a deep
> mystery to me, as no one here suggested using this particular
> program.

We are discussing the format, and confusion about what viewers are suitable and
desirable.  The complaint is ABSOLUTELY germane, and is ontopic to the thread.

w8rd clearly FOUND (somehow) a link to DjVu Solo.  Which did not work for them.
     This is PRECISELY an example of the same type of confusion that I had, which
could have been avoided if the site had given better guidance.

  > Moreover, the webpage  http://djvu.org/resources
> lists DjVu Solo as ‘old DjVu software’.

OK, but when you're just looking for something to read .djvu format, there are a
LOT of references that come up.  (Or one, or whatever)... but NOT just the
"magic" one you reference with the key nugget of information.

> As I see it, no website
> author is responsible for w8rd's misfortune.  And certainly not
> djvu as technology and file format.

Then clearly we differ on our opinions on that point.  Again, people who post
software in less-familiar formats ought to include a link on the page that
answers the (obvious!!) question... ".djvu?  what's that?"

--

Gordon Peterson II
http://personal.terabites.com
1977-2007:  Thirty year anniversary of local area networking

2009/9/17 Gordon Peterson <gep2@...>
> This is an example of the problem... a website that is going to use a
> less-well-known format ought to include a link to a page suggesting which
> software is reliable and good to work with that format. Rather than leaving
> everything to chance, and us all wondering which software to use, and being
> frustrated by sites and programs that don't work well.
>
> --- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, "w8rd" <rayd@...> wrote:
>> After jumping thru hoops to get there, message from DjVuSolo...
>> DjVu Decoder: Cannot decode DjVu files with version >= 25
>> Nice. What a waste of time.

I am sure there are people that don't know of .pdf, yet by far
not every website tells you how to read it.  The same holds of
.ps, .dvi, .ai, .tif, .rss, .man, .cab, .tgz, .avi, .svg etc …
let alone .sno :)  Can you imagine webpages assiduously furnished
with all the relevant explanations?

These days, it is anything but uncommon to encounter something
you didn't know of.  Most often, it is not hard to find out what
you need yourself – there are plenty of sources of information
around.  Another option is to ask, as you did.  And I believe
you got useful answers from several people.  Is that not enough?
How are you ‘left wondering’ and ‘frustrated’?

Now, ‘w8rd’ is complaining about DjVu Solo not working for him
(her? it?).  Why and to whom he/she/it is complaining is a deep
mystery to me, as no one here suggested using this particular
program.  Moreover, the webpage  http://djvu.org/resources
lists DjVu Solo as ‘old DjVu software’.  As I see it, no website
author is responsible for w8rd's misfortune.  And certainly not
djvu as technology and file format.

This is an example of the problem... a website that is going to use a
less-well-known format ought to include a link to a page suggesting which
software is reliable and good to work with that format.  Rather than leaving
everything to chance, and us all wondering which software to use, and being
frustrated by sites and programs that don't work well.

yanquiidoodle wrote:
> --- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, "w8rd" <rayd@...> wrote:
>> After jumping thru hoops to get there, message from DjVuSolo...
>>
>> DjVu Decoder: Cannot decode DjVu files with version >= 25
>>
>> Nice. What a waste of time.
>>
>
> I don't know anything about djvu but,
>
> DjVuLibre http://djvulibre.djvuzone.org djview 4.5 
http://djvu.sourceforge.net/
>
> WinDjView 1.0.3 http://windjview.sourceforge.net/
>
> seem to work just fine.

--

Gordon Peterson II
http://personal.terabites.com
1977-2007:  Thirty year anniversary of local area networking

--- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, "w8rd" <rayd@...> wrote:
>
> After jumping thru hoops to get there, message from DjVuSolo...
>
> DjVu Decoder: Cannot decode DjVu files with version >= 25
>
> Nice. What a waste of time.
>

I don't know anything about djvu but,

DjVuLibre http://djvulibre.djvuzone.org djview 4.5  http://djvu.sourceforge.net/

WinDjView 1.0.3 http://windjview.sourceforge.net/

seem to work just fine.

After jumping thru hoops to get there, message from DjVuSolo...

DjVu Decoder: Cannot decode DjVu files with version >= 25

Nice. What a waste of time.

Casting spells? Obviously you have no intent of being taken seriously.
In any case this has nothing to with Snobol and should be taken off-line.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Boyko Bantchev" <boykobb@...>


> 2009/9/16 Jim Mehl <mehl@...>
>> Agreed. It simply doesn't work. Folks that want to replace accepted
>> Internet standards are at a major disadvantage. PDF works, DjVu doesn't.
>> To change an existing standard, reasons and help in shifting over would
>> seem to be critical, Rah,rah DjVu won't do it.
>
> Had you spent a minute digging up about what djvu is, you
> would have learnt that it was created precisely with Internet
> in mind.  You would also have learnt that djvu most certainly
> *is* an Internet standard already; it has been for years now.
> Thousands of precious books are being scanned&OCRed and made
> widely available each month.  Of course, you are free to not
> take advantage of the progress.  Casting spells on djvu as
> you do won't change a thing though.

Thanks, but nothing ever showed up.

----- Original Message -----
From: "yanquiidoodle" <kaliuzhkin@...>


> The.Macro.Implementation.Of.Snobol4_Griswold_0716704471.djvu
>
> --- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Mehl" <mehl@...> wrote:
>>
>> Umm. What file is that?
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "yanquiidoodle" <kaliuzhkin@...>
>>
>>
>> > File sent.
>> >
>> > --- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Mehl" <mehl@> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Agreed. It simply doesn't work. Folks that want to replace accepted
>> >> Internet standards are at a major disadvantage. PDF works, DjVu
>> >> doesn't.
>> >> To change an existing standard, reasons and help in shifting over
>> >> would
>> >> seem to be critical, Rah,rah DjVu won't do it.
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Gordon Peterson" <gep2@>
>> >> To: <snobol@yahoogroups.com>
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:50 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [snobol] Re: Snobol4 eBook
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > yanquiidoodle wrote:
>> >> >> No problem.
>> >> >>
http://ifile.it/2bxyiej/The.Macro.Implementation.Of.Snobol4_Griswold_0716704471.\
djvu
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Request download ticket.
>> >> >> The.Macro.Implementation.Of.Snobol4_Griswold_0716704471.djvu   2.24
>> >> >> MB
>> >> >
>> >> > That's when I just get a "wait" message, which "never" goes away.  I
>> >> > tried
>> >> > on
>> >> > both Chrome and Firefox.
>> >> >
>> >> > Could someone please just e-mail (or zip and e-mail) me a copy of
>> >> > the
>> >> > file, please?
>> >> >
>> >> >>  download
>> >> >> The.Macro.Implementation.Of.Snobol4_Griswold_0716704471.djvu   2.24
>> >> >> MB
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Do you want to open or save this file?  Save.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And then it starts downloading.
>> >> >
>> >> > Yeah.... on my system, it never gets past "wait".
>> >> >
>> >> >> I must note that the first time I downloaded it, it wouldn't run.
>> >> >> There
>> >> >> was something wrong with the file.  I downloaded it again and it
>> >> >> worked
>> >> >> fine.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dan
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > It's not as if I really *need* this book... I have a printed copy of
>> >> > the
>> >> > book
>> >> > somewhere, even along with Mark's "implementor's notes" which
>> >> > reportedly
>> >> > basically turn what looks like a feasible project into a truly
>> >> > possible
>> >> > one.  ;-)
>> >> >
>> >> > But while we're talking about this, I'd like to snag a copy and keep
>> >> > one
>> >> > on my
>> >> > own system here...!
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Peterson <gep2@> wrote:
>> >> >>> Did anybody succeed in getting the Macro Implementation book
>> >> >>> downloaded?
>> >> >>> I just
>> >> >>> get the admonition to "wait", and I think Godot will get here
>> >> >>> first...!!!
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> And I still think that any site distributing stuff in
>> >> >>> less-standard
>> >> >>> formats
>> >> >>> should really offer some links to places where the requisite tools
>> >> >>> can
>> >> >>> be
>> >> >>> downloaded.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> . . .
>> >> >>> Gordon Peterson II
>> >> >>> http://personal.terabites.com
>> >> >>> 1977-2007:  Thirty year anniversary of local area networking
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> >
>> >> > Gordon Peterson II
>> >> > http://personal.terabites.com
>> >> > 1977-2007:  Thirty year anniversary of local area networking
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

2009/9/16 Jim Mehl <mehl@...>
> Agreed. It simply doesn't work. Folks that want to replace accepted
> Internet standards are at a major disadvantage. PDF works, DjVu doesn't.
> To change an existing standard, reasons and help in shifting over would
> seem to be critical, Rah,rah DjVu won't do it.

Had you spent a minute digging up about what djvu is, you
would have learnt that it was created precisely with Internet
in mind.  You would also have learnt that djvu most certainly
*is* an Internet standard already; it has been for years now.
Thousands of precious books are being scanned&OCRed and made
widely available each month.  Of course, you are free to not
take advantage of the progress.  Casting spells on djvu as
you do won't change a thing though.

--- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, Boyko Bantchev <boykobb@...> wrote:
>
> I have received the following with a request to post it
> to this group.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ...
> Here are the rest of the books, if you wouldn't mind sharing with the
> Snobol group.
>

So, are these books now all in the public domain?

-L. Gene Battin

The.Macro.Implementation.Of.Snobol4_Griswold_0716704471.djvu

--- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Mehl" <mehl@...> wrote:
>
> Umm. What file is that?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "yanquiidoodle" <kaliuzhkin@...>
>
>
> > File sent.
> >
> > --- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Mehl" <mehl@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Agreed. It simply doesn't work. Folks that want to replace accepted
> >> Internet standards are at a major disadvantage. PDF works, DjVu doesn't.
> >> To change an existing standard, reasons and help in shifting over would
> >> seem to be critical, Rah,rah DjVu won't do it.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Gordon Peterson" <gep2@>
> >> To: <snobol@yahoogroups.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:50 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [snobol] Re: Snobol4 eBook
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > yanquiidoodle wrote:
> >> >> No problem.
> >> >>
http://ifile.it/2bxyiej/The.Macro.Implementation.Of.Snobol4_Griswold_0716704471.\
djvu
> >> >>
> >> >> Request download ticket.
> >> >> The.Macro.Implementation.Of.Snobol4_Griswold_0716704471.djvu   2.24 MB
> >> >
> >> > That's when I just get a "wait" message, which "never" goes away.  I
> >> > tried
> >> > on
> >> > both Chrome and Firefox.
> >> >
> >> > Could someone please just e-mail (or zip and e-mail) me a copy of the
> >> > file, please?
> >> >
> >> >>  download
> >> >> The.Macro.Implementation.Of.Snobol4_Griswold_0716704471.djvu   2.24 MB
> >> >>
> >> >> Do you want to open or save this file?  Save.
> >> >>
> >> >> And then it starts downloading.
> >> >
> >> > Yeah.... on my system, it never gets past "wait".
> >> >
> >> >> I must note that the first time I downloaded it, it wouldn't run.
> >> >> There
> >> >> was something wrong with the file.  I downloaded it again and it
> >> >> worked
> >> >> fine.
> >> >>
> >> >> Dan
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > It's not as if I really *need* this book... I have a printed copy of
> >> > the
> >> > book
> >> > somewhere, even along with Mark's "implementor's notes" which
> >> > reportedly
> >> > basically turn what looks like a feasible project into a truly possible
> >> > one.  ;-)
> >> >
> >> > But while we're talking about this, I'd like to snag a copy and keep
> >> > one
> >> > on my
> >> > own system here...!
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> --- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Peterson <gep2@> wrote:
> >> >>> Did anybody succeed in getting the Macro Implementation book
> >> >>> downloaded?
> >> >>> I just
> >> >>> get the admonition to "wait", and I think Godot will get here
> >> >>> first...!!!
> >> >>>
> >> >>> And I still think that any site distributing stuff in less-standard
> >> >>> formats
> >> >>> should really offer some links to places where the requisite tools
> >> >>> can
> >> >>> be
> >> >>> downloaded.
> >> >>>
> >> >> . . .
> >> >>> Gordon Peterson II
> >> >>> http://personal.terabites.com
> >> >>> 1977-2007:  Thirty year anniversary of local area networking
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> > Gordon Peterson II
> >> > http://personal.terabites.com
> >> > 1977-2007:  Thirty year anniversary of local area networking
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

Umm. What file is that?

----- Original Message -----
From: "yanquiidoodle" <kaliuzhkin@...>


> File sent.
>
> --- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Mehl" <mehl@...> wrote:
>>
>> Agreed. It simply doesn't work. Folks that want to replace accepted
>> Internet standards are at a major disadvantage. PDF works, DjVu doesn't.
>> To change an existing standard, reasons and help in shifting over would
>> seem to be critical, Rah,rah DjVu won't do it.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Gordon Peterson" <gep2@...>
>> To: <snobol@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:50 PM
>> Subject: Re: [snobol] Re: Snobol4 eBook
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > yanquiidoodle wrote:
>> >> No problem.
>> >>
http://ifile.it/2bxyiej/The.Macro.Implementation.Of.Snobol4_Griswold_0716704471.\
djvu
>> >>
>> >> Request download ticket.
>> >> The.Macro.Implementation.Of.Snobol4_Griswold_0716704471.djvu   2.24 MB
>> >
>> > That's when I just get a "wait" message, which "never" goes away.  I
>> > tried
>> > on
>> > both Chrome and Firefox.
>> >
>> > Could someone please just e-mail (or zip and e-mail) me a copy of the
>> > file, please?
>> >
>> >>  download
>> >> The.Macro.Implementation.Of.Snobol4_Griswold_0716704471.djvu   2.24 MB
>> >>
>> >> Do you want to open or save this file?  Save.
>> >>
>> >> And then it starts downloading.
>> >
>> > Yeah.... on my system, it never gets past "wait".
>> >
>> >> I must note that the first time I downloaded it, it wouldn't run.
>> >> There
>> >> was something wrong with the file.  I downloaded it again and it
>> >> worked
>> >> fine.
>> >>
>> >> Dan
>> >
>> >
>> > It's not as if I really *need* this book... I have a printed copy of
>> > the
>> > book
>> > somewhere, even along with Mark's "implementor's notes" which
>> > reportedly
>> > basically turn what looks like a feasible project into a truly possible
>> > one.  ;-)
>> >
>> > But while we're talking about this, I'd like to snag a copy and keep
>> > one
>> > on my
>> > own system here...!
>> >
>> >>
>> >> --- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Peterson <gep2@> wrote:
>> >>> Did anybody succeed in getting the Macro Implementation book
>> >>> downloaded?
>> >>> I just
>> >>> get the admonition to "wait", and I think Godot will get here
>> >>> first...!!!
>> >>>
>> >>> And I still think that any site distributing stuff in less-standard
>> >>> formats
>> >>> should really offer some links to places where the requisite tools
>> >>> can
>> >>> be
>> >>> downloaded.
>> >>>
>> >> . . .
>> >>> Gordon Peterson II
>> >>> http://personal.terabites.com
>> >>> 1977-2007:  Thirty year anniversary of local area networking
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Gordon Peterson II
>> > http://personal.terabites.com
>> > 1977-2007:  Thirty year anniversary of local area networking
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

File sent.

--- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Mehl" <mehl@...> wrote:
>
> Agreed. It simply doesn't work. Folks that want to replace accepted
> Internet standards are at a major disadvantage. PDF works, DjVu doesn't.
> To change an existing standard, reasons and help in shifting over would
> seem to be critical, Rah,rah DjVu won't do it.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gordon Peterson" <gep2@...>
> To: <snobol@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [snobol] Re: Snobol4 eBook
>
>
> >
> >
> > yanquiidoodle wrote:
> >> No problem.
> >>
http://ifile.it/2bxyiej/The.Macro.Implementation.Of.Snobol4_Griswold_0716704471.\
djvu
> >>
> >> Request download ticket.
> >> The.Macro.Implementation.Of.Snobol4_Griswold_0716704471.djvu   2.24 MB
> >
> > That's when I just get a "wait" message, which "never" goes away.  I tried
> > on
> > both Chrome and Firefox.
> >
> > Could someone please just e-mail (or zip and e-mail) me a copy of the
> > file, please?
> >
> >>  download
> >> The.Macro.Implementation.Of.Snobol4_Griswold_0716704471.djvu   2.24 MB
> >>
> >> Do you want to open or save this file?  Save.
> >>
> >> And then it starts downloading.
> >
> > Yeah.... on my system, it never gets past "wait".
> >
> >> I must note that the first time I downloaded it, it wouldn't run.  There
> >> was something wrong with the file.  I downloaded it again and it worked
> >> fine.
> >>
> >> Dan
> >
> >
> > It's not as if I really *need* this book... I have a printed copy of the
> > book
> > somewhere, even along with Mark's "implementor's notes" which reportedly
> > basically turn what looks like a feasible project into a truly possible
> > one.  ;-)
> >
> > But while we're talking about this, I'd like to snag a copy and keep one
> > on my
> > own system here...!
> >
> >>
> >> --- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Peterson <gep2@> wrote:
> >>> Did anybody succeed in getting the Macro Implementation book downloaded?
> >>> I just
> >>> get the admonition to "wait", and I think Godot will get here
> >>> first...!!!
> >>>
> >>> And I still think that any site distributing stuff in less-standard
> >>> formats
> >>> should really offer some links to places where the requisite tools can
> >>> be
> >>> downloaded.
> >>>
> >> . . .
> >>> Gordon Peterson II
> >>> http://personal.terabites.com
> >>> 1977-2007:  Thirty year anniversary of local area networking
> >
> > --
> >
> > Gordon Peterson II
> > http://personal.terabites.com
> > 1977-2007:  Thirty year anniversary of local area networking
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Agreed. It simply doesn't work. Folks that want to replace accepted
Internet standards are at a major disadvantage. PDF works, DjVu doesn't.
To change an existing standard, reasons and help in shifting over would
seem to be critical, Rah,rah DjVu won't do it.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Peterson" <gep2@...>
To: <snobol@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [snobol] Re: Snobol4 eBook


>
>
> yanquiidoodle wrote:
>> No problem.
>>
http://ifile.it/2bxyiej/The.Macro.Implementation.Of.Snobol4_Griswold_0716704471.\
djvu
>>
>> Request download ticket.
>> The.Macro.Implementation.Of.Snobol4_Griswold_0716704471.djvu   2.24 MB
>
> That's when I just get a "wait" message, which "never" goes away.  I tried
> on
> both Chrome and Firefox.
>
> Could someone please just e-mail (or zip and e-mail) me a copy of the
> file, please?
>
>>  download
>> The.Macro.Implementation.Of.Snobol4_Griswold_0716704471.djvu   2.24 MB
>>
>> Do you want to open or save this file?  Save.
>>
>> And then it starts downloading.
>
> Yeah.... on my system, it never gets past "wait".
>
>> I must note that the first time I downloaded it, it wouldn't run.  There
>> was something wrong with the file.  I downloaded it again and it worked
>> fine.
>>
>> Dan
>
>
> It's not as if I really *need* this book... I have a printed copy of the
> book
> somewhere, even along with Mark's "implementor's notes" which reportedly
> basically turn what looks like a feasible project into a truly possible
> one.  ;-)
>
> But while we're talking about this, I'd like to snag a copy and keep one
> on my
> own system here...!
>
>>
>> --- In snobol@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Peterson <gep2@...> wrote:
>>> Did anybody succeed in getting the Macro Implementation book downloaded?
>>> I just
>>> get the admonition to "wait", and I think Godot will get here
>>> first...!!!
>>>
>>> And I still think that any site distributing stuff in less-standard
>>> formats
>>> should really offer some links to places where the requisite tools can
>>> be
>>> downloaded.
>>>
>> . . .
>>> Gordon Peterson II
>>> http://personal.terabites.com
>>> 1977-2007:  Thirty year anniversary of local area networking
>
> --
>
> Gordon Peterson II
> http://personal.terabites.com
> 1977-2007:  Thirty year anniversary of local area networking
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>