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What if multirefs were all inlined?   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #5591 of 10820 |
Re: [soapbuilders] What if multirefs were all inlined?

Paul, please see my response inside. 8-)

Jacek Kopecky

Idoox
http://www.idoox.com/



On Fri, 12 Oct 2001, Paul Kulchenko wrote:

> > <a id="c" xml:lang="en_us">hello</a>
> > <b href="#c" xml:lang="de" />
> > or even
> > <a id="c" xsi:type="string">1234</a>
> > <b href="#c" xsi:type="int" />
> It doesn't look like encoded multiref for me. As far as I understand
> we need multirefs to encode references to *the same object* that
> occur in different places of tree. I can't come up with explanation
> why they would have different attributes (except mentioned position,
> actor and mustUnderstand). Am I missing something?
>
> If it's just a case of XML reduction (as in case of xml:lang) it has
> nothing to do with multirefs and shouldn't be mixed. imho

I agree with you completely here.

> > So I'd rather go with listing the attributes allowable on
> > referencing accesors, and the list would probably look like
> > [href, enc:position].
> I would add actor and mustUnderstand, because they have fixed
> position regardless of used encoding method (forward or backward) and
> can appear on both ID and HREF elements.

Here's where SOAP's layering shows the right way. There are two
layers here: 1) SOAP envelope with headers, 2) the data which
form a header.

Actor and mustUnderstand attributes are in the first layer and
they don't care what the data is. If the data is encoded using
SOAP encoding rules, this does in no way affect actor and
mustUnderstand. This means that these attributes must be on the
header, even if it is just
<ns:header href="#somethingelse"/>

The meaning of the attribute 'href' is hidden from the processor
when the layer-one-processing is being done. The values of actor
and mustUnderstand attributes, on the other hand, have no effect
on the actual header processor when the header is being
processed. And anyway, the processor should receive the header
(<ns:header href="#..."/>) and it can do whatever it will, e.g.
apply SOAP encoding rules to it. If it cares about actor and
mustUnderstand, it has to understand this layering.

So my response is: I don't think actor and mustUnderstand belong
to the list.

Regards,

Jacek





Mon Oct 15, 2001 10:39 am

jacek@...
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Message #5591 of 10820 |
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Hello all. 8-) The W3C XML Protocol Working Group's Encoding task force is pondering now the issues of "what's the top level of serialization" and such and we...
Jacek Kopecky
jacek@...
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Oct 11, 2001
4:43 pm

+1 ! -- Zolera Systems, Your Key to Online Integrity Securing Web services: XML, SOAP, Dig-sig, Encryption http://www.zolera.com...
Rich Salz
rsalz@...
Send Email
Oct 11, 2001
5:10 pm

Hello, I would welcome such a change. The bottom line is that it's painless from an implementation standpoint, since the support for "inline" multi-refs has to...
Bob Cunnings
cunnings@...
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Oct 11, 2001
5:29 pm

Hi, Jacek! ... It definitely won't hurt me, but there are still several questions to answer (hope you're not surprised ;) ). Is href before id allowed: <a><b...
Paul Kulchenko
paulclinger@...
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Oct 11, 2001
5:49 pm

Hi Paul, Of course, these concerns must already exist for strings and byte arrays in the current spec, right? "href before id" is supported here for strings,...
Bob Cunnings
cunnings@...
Send Email
Oct 11, 2001
6:07 pm

Paul, thank you for the very insightful response. 8-) I'm not surprised by your questions and I'll gladly try to answer them. Href before ID probably needn't...
Jacek Kopecky
kopretinka2
Offline Send Email
Oct 12, 2001
8:37 am

Hi, Jacek! ... I don't think it's possible. cycles is just one of the examples of what won't be possible. Another one is below. I also understand that you're...
Paul Kulchenko
paulclinger@...
Send Email
Oct 12, 2001
3:32 pm

Paul, please see my responses inside. This message contains a proposed solution to these problems, one that does not forbid forward linking, circular graph...
Jacek Kopecky
jacek@...
Send Email
Oct 15, 2001
12:35 pm

Hi all, IMHO forward references should be allowed. It is true that inline serialization would "solve" the forward reference problem. However, SOAP must be kept...
Robert van Engelen
ravenengelen
Offline Send Email
Oct 15, 2001
2:09 pm

Hi, Jacek! Thanks for your comments. My concerns and suggestions below ;) ... No, they are different. #1 describes serialization with two roots, and #6...
Paul Kulchenko
paulclinger@...
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Oct 15, 2001
2:53 pm

Paul, in #6 you say "no local references external to a header", whild in #1 I say "no local references external to a serialization tree". We haven't defined...
Jacek Kopecky
jacek@...
Send Email
Oct 15, 2001
3:20 pm

Hi, Jacek! ... I see now. I understood #1 as forbidding references between header and body (those are "serialization trees" we usually discuss ;)) and encode...
Paul Kulchenko
paulclinger@...
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Oct 15, 2001
3:33 pm

I would personally welcome this! GLUE would encounter no problems. Cheers, graham ... From: Jacek Kopecky [mailto:jacek@...] Sent: Thursday, October 11,...
Graham Glass
graham@...
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Oct 11, 2001
7:04 pm

Definitely better than the current scheme. CapeConnect would not have a problem with this and I personally think it is the way to go. I would guess just about...
Pete Hendry
peter.hendry@...
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Oct 12, 2001
8:32 am

... It is currently permitted and so probably supported by most implementations. Even though the proposal is that multirefs MAY be serialized inline, the...
Pete Hendry
peter.hendry@...
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Oct 12, 2001
9:06 am

Pete, in connection with the solution no. 1 to the second problem, the proposal is not to _allow_ inlining of multirefs, it's to _require_ inlining. Depending...
Jacek Kopecky
kopretinka2
Offline Send Email
Oct 12, 2001
12:23 pm

Hi, Jacek! ... It doesn't look like encoded multiref for me. As far as I understand we need multirefs to encode references to *the same object* that occur in...
Paul Kulchenko
paulclinger@...
Send Email
Oct 12, 2001
4:07 pm

Paul, please see my response inside. 8-) Jacek Kopecky Idoox http://www.idoox.com/ ... I agree with you completely here. ... Here's where SOAP's layering shows...
Jacek Kopecky
jacek@...
Send Email
Oct 15, 2001
10:39 am

Hi, Jacek! ... I believe it's not very significant point, but my resolution from your arguments is "actor and mustUnderstand attributes DO belong to the list"...
Paul Kulchenko
paulclinger@...
Send Email
Oct 15, 2001
3:00 pm

... I would like to add that in certain cases it is impossible to avoid forward references. For example, consider <ns:person id="1"> <name>John</name> <address...
Robert van Engelen
ravenengelen
Offline Send Email
Oct 12, 2001
12:42 pm

Hi, Robert! ... Absolutely agree. ... I don't think it's possible. It's reference to serialized data which is combination of value and attributes. My strong HO...
Paul Kulchenko
paulclinger@...
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Oct 12, 2001
3:51 pm

Saying "you can inline at the first instance" is a small simplification. Outlawing forward references is a big limitation. For example, it would make it...
Rich Salz
rich_salz
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Oct 12, 2001
1:23 pm

... The problem is we can't predict what the developer wants and if we list the attributes which are *allowed* then we limit the developers scope. For example,...
Pete Hendry
peter.hendry@...
Send Email
Oct 12, 2001
1:27 pm

Pete, please see my response below. Jacek Kopecky Idoox http://www.idoox.com/ ... The current SOAP encoding does not serialize any data into attributes. Any...
Jacek Kopecky
jacek@...
Send Email
Oct 15, 2001
10:32 am

+1 Forcing inline serialization, IMHO, is a bad idea. Allowing it seems like a good one. --Glen...
Glen Daniels
glen_macromedia
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Oct 12, 2001
2:06 pm

+1 Ruling out cycles seems a mistake. Indeed, a main point of the chapter 5 serialization is allowing graphs of datastructures. Restricting that to acyclic...
Noah_Mendelsohn@...
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Oct 12, 2001
2:12 pm

I don't like that user-data MUST appear in the header. For example, please write an XPATH expression that would capture all the data in such a case, so that I...
Rich Salz
rsalz@...
Send Email
Oct 15, 2001
1:33 pm

Rich, my wording allows for the user data to be all in the body. Just when the referenced data can be removed before removing all of the references to it, it...
Jacek Kopecky
jacek@...
Send Email
Oct 15, 2001
2:02 pm
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