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Zubrin's *Entering Space*   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #239 of 378 |
Re: Zubrin's *Entering Space*

I apologize for not including your text in my response, but Yahoo!'s new
html formatting makes that somewhat difficult.

I find your pessimism about solar electric propulsion surprising - it's
been used at least twice with quite remarkable success already - the
EU's SMART-1, and Deep Space 1. It should at most add a few months to
get from LEO to GEO. Claiming it will take over ten times the cost to
deploy to GEO as to LEO for something with as much power available as
SPS components seems very unlikely. I'm not going to get into
engineering details, but any business working those angles would be
clearly malfeasant if they wasted that much of their investment on such
an orbit transfer.

Mass requirements for rocket launch and deployment shouldn't be any
worse than for the solar sail, which was why I mentioned that example.
Something that's in thin foldable or rollable sheets can surely be
easily compacted and made safe for launch without adding hugely to mass
requirements. I'm not trying to account for 10% effects, really just
orders of magnitude at this point. A Japanese group recently launched a
suborbital rocket looking at rapid deployment of a triangular thin sheet
of this sort with robotic assistance.

The problem with any form of solar concentrator is the pointing
requirements are very strict, which limits what you can do as far as
maneuverability via sailing. That's part of why I believe PV is a better
choice - but a concentrator might be the right choice anyway depending
on engineering details - if it's possible to do it economically with one
and the other is better, then it's certainly possible to do it
economically with the other.

Yes, certainly, the farther you go out in the solar system, the less
effective solar energy becomes. Inverse square law etc. The lowest
material requirements for space solar power would, conversely, be in
orbits much closer to the Sun. There's 90 million miles of room
sun-ward; if we ever do choose to build space colonies and space
manufacturing facilities, heading in would be much more effective than
heading out.

I wasn't referring to a human-inhabited lunar colony, in talking about
Criswell's lunar solar power project. Rather, it is a robotically run
system that should require little or no oxygen or hydrogen for
construction or operations, other than for occasional human visits to
replace or tend equipment. The moon is ideal for the construction
proposed; solar panels have already been made from the equivalent of
lunar regolith in experiments (only 1% efficient so far though).

Arthur



Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:14 pm

arthurpsmith
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Message #239 of 378 |
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Zubrin got it wrong. His focus on Mars perhaps distorted his views on the subject. Mike Combs has a nice "debunking" here: ...
Arthur Smith
arthurpsmith
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Jul 5, 2006
1:55 pm

"When Zubrin factors in lack of cloudy atmosphere, and the ability to track the sun, together with conversion efficiencies, he calculates an orbital solar...
Terry Wilson
aftercolumbia2
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Jul 9, 2006
4:17 pm

From: solarpowersatelliteplace@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solarpowersatelliteplace@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Terry Wilson Here Mike Combs has not defined a...
Combs, Mike
mikecombs
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Jul 14, 2006
3:52 am

... Weren't they using L1? Anyway, having read High Frontier, it is obvious that O'Niell has underestimated targeting, rendezvous and docking difficulties. On...
Terry Wilson
aftercolumbia2
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Jul 14, 2006
8:44 pm

Terry, If you read my "Science and Society" article, you'll note SPS launched from Earth may compete economically with base power plants (nuclear, coal -...
Arthur Smith
arthurpsmith
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Jul 10, 2006
12:21 am

... plants ... launch ... costs) ... That's easy, I think ... space ... below 0.1 ... As for these two, I don't think that it is possible do both at the same...
aftercolumbia2
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Jul 11, 2006
5:45 am

I apologize for not including your text in my response, but Yahoo!'s new html formatting makes that somewhat difficult. I find your pessimism about solar...
Arthur Smith
arthurpsmith
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Jul 11, 2006
2:36 pm

... Gmail is excellent for managing group mail, and is pretty good at annotated responses like this one. I sent you an invitation email...if you got good spam...
Terry Wilson
aftercolumbia2
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Jul 11, 2006
9:49 pm

I've decided that the best way to fix this is to take it from the horse's mouth. He goes in W/kg and so does OECD and CRC books, so that's what I'll use. ...
Terry Wilson
aftercolumbia2
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Jul 12, 2006
4:36 am

So Zubrin's estimates improved the cost effectiveness of SPS by a factor of 16 in just a few years? I suppose that's encouraging... For current communications...
Arthur Smith
arthurpsmith
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Jul 12, 2006
2:08 pm

... No, mine did. ... All indications I have are that launch costs are 40% total cost of launching a commercial satellite, and have been in this ballpark since...
Terry Wilson
aftercolumbia2
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Jul 12, 2006
10:03 pm
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