That will be a very good thing to have a listing of BD opensource projects. I
would like to think about one more thing. Can we propose good ideas about
opensource project? I mean can we start some opensource projects ourselves. I
was thinking of working in a opensource project. I don't know how to apply for
that. But if a team from BD starts one, then it will surely be a pleasure to
work on that.

So I guess no one knows of any open source projects actively
maintained by the BD community, that is worth mentioning? :)

How about the BDOSN (Bangladesh Open Source Network) folks? Care to comment?

Regards,
Sajjadul Hakim
http://rapidtester.blogspot.com/


On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Sajjadul Hakim <sajjadul@...> wrote:
> If anyone knows any open source projects worked on by the BD
> community, can they reply to this thread and list them here for now so
> that we get an idea. I think that would be very interesting. For now
> It would suffice to just list the name of the project and the url of
> the project page (at the project development websites).
>
> Also, you are welcome to discuss ideas about the implementation of the
> suggested project listing page.
>
> Regards,
> Sajjadul Hakim
> http://rapidtester.blogspot.com/
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Shantonu Sarker
> <shantonu_oxford@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi to all
>>
>> I am also agree with sazzad bhi. I prefer, this could be like "Tips &
Tricks".
>>
>> Shantonu
>> Associate SQA
>> KAZ Software
>> ________________________________
>> From: Raisul Kabir <raisulk@...>
>> To: sqa_bangladesh@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 12:30:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [SQABD] A suggestion
>>
>>
>>
>> Agreed with you Sajjadul, no point in investing time on something which is
already built, instead a list of projects is a cool idea, I also was thinking
the same while reading the suggestion. Excellent suggestion.
>>
>> Best regards.
>>
>> Raisul
>>
>>
>> ------------ --------
>> Raisul Kabir, BrainStation- 23
>> H-480, R-32, Mohakhali, New DOHS,
>> Dhaka, Bangladesh
>> cell: +8801713458492
>> email: raisul@brainstation -23.com raisulk@gmail. com raisul@latitude- 23.net
>> skype: raisulk gtalk: raisul@latitude- 23.net
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Sajjadul Hakim <sajjadul@gmail. com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is an interesting thought you guys. However I was wondering why we
>>> need to host the projects on sqabd.com, since SourceForge, Google Code
>>> and other sites do that already. Also they already have pretty good
>>> collaboration tools specifically aimed to facilitate software
>>> development for distributed developers.
>>>
>>> I would think a good idea would be to have a page on sqabd.com to link
>>> your projects on SourceForge or Google Code. So there may be a form to
>>> add a reference of the project. The page can display a brief detail on
>>> the project, the people involved etc. So visitors can browse the
>>> projects being worked on by BD people (maybe not necessarily by BD
>>> folks) and click on the join link to go directly to the appropriate
>>> hosting site for more details or for rare scenario of actually
>>> contributing to the project :)
>>>
>>> Of course to develop an integrated application like this open source
>>> software dev websites should have APIs to retrieve such information. I
>>> don't know if SouceForge or Google Code or others have such APIs. Has
>>> anyone heard of Ohloh (https://www. ohloh.net/)? Does anyone know how
>>> they extract details of open source projects from the development
>>> websites.
>>>
>>> Another way maybe to have a detailed registration form, to enter all
>>> the information required to show on the page. But that will in no way
>>> show updates automatically, on the recent project activity, or
>>> downloadable files, or developers etc. I am not so comfortable with
>>> this solution, but I am open to suggestions.
>>>
>>> I guess the incentive to doing this is what you folks already
>>> mentioned. Apart from the programmers it may even entice testers to
>>> join in, which is a rarer scenario.
>>>
>>> I am not sure if that has already been done already aimed specifically
>>> for the BD folks. Anyone know about similar initiatives?
>>>
>>> What do you all say?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Sajjadul Hakim
>>> http://rapidtester. blogspot. com/
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Foyzul Karim <foyzulkarim@ yahoo.com>
wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Salam to all.
>>> > I think its a great idea. By this, inexperienced and students can help
themselves to code better without being into a company. It will also make better
our company's standard of programming.
>>> > If the experienced developers can guide the projects and code, i think it
will be much better.
>>> >
>>> > Sincerely
>>> > Foyzul Karim
>>> > Mobile: +8801911567771
>>> >
>>> > ____________ _________ _________ __
>>> > From: Azman Sami <azmansami@gmail. com>
>>> > To: sqa_bangladesh@ yahoogroups. com
>>> > Sent: Wednesday, 30 September, 2009 12:41:47 AM
>>> > Subject: [SQABD] A suggestion
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > hi sajjad,
>>> >
>>> > how are you doing? hope great.
>>> > I have a suggestion.
>>> > in sqabd.com website can we have a section to host our open source
projects?
>>> > any sqabd member can open a new project, describe his idea for a project.
>>> > if other members find the idea interesting, they can freely contribute and
join any project.
>>> > a guy in the project team can maintain the code and do integration.
>>> > this will provide bd programming community to come up with great ideas and
implement them.
>>> > code snippet, programming technique, programming and testing articles
(original) can be hosted here.
>>> > what do you guys think?
>>> > regards,
>>> > Azman Sami
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ____________ _________ _________ __
>>> > Yahoo! India has a new look. Take a sneak peek.
>>> >
>>
>>
>>
>

Hey Shehab,

I was wondering why you didn't respond :)

That sounds like a good initiative. You guys seem to be ideal for
doing this. Any thoughts on how you would be hosting those projects?
Would you want everyone to move from their current hosting to your
own, or would you be listing the projects and their details?

Regards,
Sajjadul Hakim


On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 12:15 PM, Abu Mohammad Omar Shehab Uddin Ayub
<shehab@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Sajjad bhai,
>
> So far BdOSN is maintaining to OpenSource project actively. One is
প্রজ্ঞা পারমিতা
(http://groups.google.com/group/progga-permita?hl=en) and the other is Mukti
Linux.
>
> We have a plan to setup an online portal to host all the OpenSource project
from Bangladesh.
> |=============|
> Regards,
> Abu Mohammad Omar Shehab Uddin Ayub
> (আবু মোহাম্মদ ওমর
শেহাবউদ্দীন আইয়ুব)
> Senior Software Engineer, Nilavo Technologies, Banani, Dhaka
> Bangladesh Open Source Network, Dhaka
> 2000 batch, Dept. of CSE, SUST
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 10:42 PM, Sajjadul Hakim <sajjadul@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> So I guess no one knows of any open source projects actively
>> maintained by the BD community, that is worth mentioning? :)
>>
>> How about the BDOSN (Bangladesh Open Source Network) folks? Care to comment?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Sajjadul Hakim
>> http://rapidtester.blogspot.com/
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Sajjadul Hakim <sajjadul@...> wrote:
>> > If anyone knows any open source projects worked on by the BD
>> > community, can they reply to this thread and list them here for now so
>> > that we get an idea. I think that would be very interesting. For now
>> > It would suffice to just list the name of the project and the url of
>> > the project page (at the project development websites).
>> >
>> > Also, you are welcome to discuss ideas about the implementation of the
>> > suggested project listing page.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Sajjadul Hakim
>> > http://rapidtester.blogspot.com/
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Shantonu Sarker
>> > <shantonu_oxford@...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi to all
>> >>
>> >> I am also agree with sazzad bhi. I prefer, this could be like "Tips &
Tricks".
>> >>
>> >> Shantonu
>> >> Associate SQA
>> >> KAZ Software
>> >> ________________________________
>> >> From: Raisul Kabir <raisulk@...>
>> >> To: sqa_bangladesh@yahoogroups.com
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 12:30:24 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [SQABD] A suggestion
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Agreed with you Sajjadul, no point in investing time on something which is
already built, instead a list of projects is a cool idea, I also was thinking
the same while reading the suggestion. Excellent suggestion.
>> >>
>> >> Best regards.
>> >>
>> >> Raisul
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------ --------
>> >> Raisul Kabir, BrainStation- 23
>> >> H-480, R-32, Mohakhali, New DOHS,
>> >> Dhaka, Bangladesh
>> >> cell: +8801713458492
>> >> email: raisul@brainstation -23.com raisulk@gmail. com raisul@latitude-
23.net
>> >> skype: raisulk gtalk: raisul@latitude- 23.net
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Sajjadul Hakim <sajjadul@gmail. com>
wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> It is an interesting thought you guys. However I was wondering why we
>> >>> need to host the projects on sqabd.com, since SourceForge, Google Code
>> >>> and other sites do that already. Also they already have pretty good
>> >>> collaboration tools specifically aimed to facilitate software
>> >>> development for distributed developers.
>> >>>
>> >>> I would think a good idea would be to have a page on sqabd.com to link
>> >>> your projects on SourceForge or Google Code. So there may be a form to
>> >>> add a reference of the project. The page can display a brief detail on
>> >>> the project, the people involved etc. So visitors can browse the
>> >>> projects being worked on by BD people (maybe not necessarily by BD
>> >>> folks) and click on the join link to go directly to the appropriate
>> >>> hosting site for more details or for rare scenario of actually
>> >>> contributing to the project :)
>> >>>
>> >>> Of course to develop an integrated application like this open source
>> >>> software dev websites should have APIs to retrieve such information. I
>> >>> don't know if SouceForge or Google Code or others have such APIs. Has
>> >>> anyone heard of Ohloh (https://www. ohloh.net/)? Does anyone know how
>> >>> they extract details of open source projects from the development
>> >>> websites.
>> >>>
>> >>> Another way maybe to have a detailed registration form, to enter all
>> >>> the information required to show on the page. But that will in no way
>> >>> show updates automatically, on the recent project activity, or
>> >>> downloadable files, or developers etc. I am not so comfortable with
>> >>> this solution, but I am open to suggestions.
>> >>>
>> >>> I guess the incentive to doing this is what you folks already
>> >>> mentioned. Apart from the programmers it may even entice testers to
>> >>> join in, which is a rarer scenario.
>> >>>
>> >>> I am not sure if that has already been done already aimed specifically
>> >>> for the BD folks. Anyone know about similar initiatives?
>> >>>
>> >>> What do you all say?
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards,
>> >>> Sajjadul Hakim
>> >>> http://rapidtester. blogspot. com/
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Foyzul Karim <foyzulkarim@ yahoo.com>
wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Salam to all.
>> >>> > I think its a great idea. By this, inexperienced and students can help
themselves to code better without being into a company. It will also make better
our company's standard of programming.
>> >>> > If the experienced developers can guide the projects and code, i think
it will be much better.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Sincerely
>> >>> > Foyzul Karim
>> >>> > Mobile: +8801911567771
>> >>> >
>> >>> > ____________ _________ _________ __
>> >>> > From: Azman Sami <azmansami@gmail. com>
>> >>> > To: sqa_bangladesh@ yahoogroups. com
>> >>> > Sent: Wednesday, 30 September, 2009 12:41:47 AM
>> >>> > Subject: [SQABD] A suggestion
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > hi sajjad,
>> >>> >
>> >>> > how are you doing? hope great.
>> >>> > I have a suggestion.
>> >>> > in sqabd.com website can we have a section to host our open source
projects?
>> >>> > any sqabd member can open a new project, describe his idea for a
project.
>> >>> > if other members find the idea interesting, they can freely contribute
and join any project.
>> >>> > a guy in the project team can maintain the code and do integration.
>> >>> > this will provide bd programming community to come up with great ideas
and implement them.
>> >>> > code snippet, programming technique, programming and testing articles
(original) can be hosted here.
>> >>> > what do you guys think?
>> >>> > regards,
>> >>> > Azman Sami
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > ____________ _________ _________ __
>> >>> > Yahoo! India has a new look. Take a sneak peek.
>> >>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>
>

Cool...Thanks for *finally* responding. I am aware of some of the
localization projects, but I used to give credit to BDOSN for that
instead of Ankur :)

So, for the record, this is the list of projects (correct?):
http://ankur.org.bd/wiki/Projects


Anyone else have more to share, or do I have to start naming names again? :)


How about the JPGroup folks? Care to comment about something called
'Pathshala', eh? :)

Regards,
Sajjadul Hakim
http://rapidtester.blogspot.com/


On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:34 PM, mak <mahayalamkhan@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> Ankur Bangladesh have been working for / towards open source since it's
inception. Ankur's volunteer members involved with various international open
source projects (i.e. GNOME, OO.o etc) for last several years. Moreover, for the
last one year Ankur is maintaining a decent size team of full time developers
working for various open source projects. I guess, list members (many of them,
if not all) have heard about us. We are at http://ankur.org.bd.
>
> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Anupam Ranku <anupam.ranku@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hello Sajjad bhai,
>>
>> I am not sure if anyone maintaining open source projects in Bangladesh but I
know many developers have articles and projects in codeproject. Those codes are
free to use, but it is not like maintaining a long term project. I guess, if we
start to list all these, there will be too many of them.
>>
>> We can always share code snippets, programming technique in email. But I
think Sami bhai might concerned of one issue, that is, we cannot tag emails with
keywords or topics (like blog or article); which makes it less searchable.
Probably we can solve this issue by having a group blog where all sqabd members
can post their article, link, code snippet, technique etc.
>>
>> Regards
>> Anupam Ranku
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 11:42 PM, Sajjadul Hakim <sajjadul@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So I guess no one knows of any open source projects actively
>>> maintained by the BD community, that is worth mentioning? :)
>>>
>>> How about the BDOSN (Bangladesh Open Source Network) folks? Care to comment?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Sajjadul Hakim
>>> http://rapidtester.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Sajjadul Hakim <sajjadul@...> wrote:
>>> > If anyone knows any open source projects worked on by the BD
>>> > community, can they reply to this thread and list them here for now so
>>> > that we get an idea. I think that would be very interesting. For now
>>> > It would suffice to just list the name of the project and the url of
>>> > the project page (at the project development websites).
>>> >
>>> > Also, you are welcome to discuss ideas about the implementation of the
>>> > suggested project listing page.
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> > Sajjadul Hakim
>>> > http://rapidtester.blogspot.com/
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Shantonu Sarker
>>> > <shantonu_oxford@...> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Hi to all
>>> >>
>>> >> I am also agree with sazzad bhi. I prefer, this could be like "Tips &
Tricks".
>>> >>
>>> >> Shantonu
>>> >> Associate SQA
>>> >> KAZ Software
>>> >> ________________________________
>>> >> From: Raisul Kabir <raisulk@...>
>>> >> To: sqa_bangladesh@yahoogroups.com
>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 12:30:24 PM
>>> >> Subject: Re: [SQABD] A suggestion
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Agreed with you Sajjadul, no point in investing time on something which
is already built, instead a list of projects is a cool idea, I also was thinking
the same while reading the suggestion. Excellent suggestion.
>>> >>
>>> >> Best regards.
>>> >>
>>> >> Raisul
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ------------ --------
>>> >> Raisul Kabir, BrainStation- 23
>>> >> H-480, R-32, Mohakhali, New DOHS,
>>> >> Dhaka, Bangladesh
>>> >> cell: +8801713458492
>>> >> email: raisul@brainstation -23.com raisulk@gmail. com raisul@latitude-
23.net
>>> >> skype: raisulk gtalk: raisul@latitude- 23.net
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Sajjadul Hakim <sajjadul@gmail. com>
wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> It is an interesting thought you guys. However I was wondering why we
>>> >>> need to host the projects on sqabd.com, since SourceForge, Google Code
>>> >>> and other sites do that already. Also they already have pretty good
>>> >>> collaboration tools specifically aimed to facilitate software
>>> >>> development for distributed developers.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I would think a good idea would be to have a page on sqabd.com to link
>>> >>> your projects on SourceForge or Google Code. So there may be a form to
>>> >>> add a reference of the project. The page can display a brief detail on
>>> >>> the project, the people involved etc. So visitors can browse the
>>> >>> projects being worked on by BD people (maybe not necessarily by BD
>>> >>> folks) and click on the join link to go directly to the appropriate
>>> >>> hosting site for more details or for rare scenario of actually
>>> >>> contributing to the project :)
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Of course to develop an integrated application like this open source
>>> >>> software dev websites should have APIs to retrieve such information. I
>>> >>> don't know if SouceForge or Google Code or others have such APIs. Has
>>> >>> anyone heard of Ohloh (https://www. ohloh.net/)? Does anyone know how
>>> >>> they extract details of open source projects from the development
>>> >>> websites.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Another way maybe to have a detailed registration form, to enter all
>>> >>> the information required to show on the page. But that will in no way
>>> >>> show updates automatically, on the recent project activity, or
>>> >>> downloadable files, or developers etc. I am not so comfortable with
>>> >>> this solution, but I am open to suggestions.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I guess the incentive to doing this is what you folks already
>>> >>> mentioned. Apart from the programmers it may even entice testers to
>>> >>> join in, which is a rarer scenario.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I am not sure if that has already been done already aimed specifically
>>> >>> for the BD folks. Anyone know about similar initiatives?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> What do you all say?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Regards,
>>> >>> Sajjadul Hakim
>>> >>> http://rapidtester. blogspot. com/
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Foyzul Karim <foyzulkarim@ yahoo.com>
wrote:
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > Salam to all.
>>> >>> > I think its a great idea. By this, inexperienced and students can help
themselves to code better without being into a company. It will also make better
our company's standard of programming.
>>> >>> > If the experienced developers can guide the projects and code, i think
it will be much better.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > Sincerely
>>> >>> > Foyzul Karim
>>> >>> > Mobile: +8801911567771
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > ____________ _________ _________ __
>>> >>> > From: Azman Sami <azmansami@gmail. com>
>>> >>> > To: sqa_bangladesh@ yahoogroups. com
>>> >>> > Sent: Wednesday, 30 September, 2009 12:41:47 AM
>>> >>> > Subject: [SQABD] A suggestion
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > hi sajjad,
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > how are you doing? hope great.
>>> >>> > I have a suggestion.
>>> >>> > in sqabd.com website can we have a section to host our open source
projects?
>>> >>> > any sqabd member can open a new project, describe his idea for a
project.
>>> >>> > if other members find the idea interesting, they can freely contribute
and join any project.
>>> >>> > a guy in the project team can maintain the code and do integration.
>>> >>> > this will provide bd programming community to come up with great ideas
and implement them.
>>> >>> > code snippet, programming technique, programming and testing articles
(original) can be hosted here.
>>> >>> > what do you guys think?
>>> >>> > regards,
>>> >>> > Azman Sami
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > ____________ _________ _________ __
>>> >>> > Yahoo! India has a new look. Take a sneak peek.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> -----------------------
> Mahay Alam Khan
> gpg key: 4FDD30FB
> http://twitpic.com/photos/mahayalamkhan
>

Dear All!

Greetings from Bangladesh Open Source Network (BdOSN). With your whole hearted support and contribution, BdOSN is going to complete its fourth year. On October 24^th, we are going to start our fifth year.

As a non-profit organization, it has always been our privilege to receive your support during the last four years. The fourth year was really an eventful year for us. We had aggressive expansions, innovations in business focus and lots of fun. Along with our regular workshops, training programs and gathering, we have also started arranging big programs and shows. ICT Carnival in Sylhet, IT Festival in Dinajpur and Knowledge Festival in Bagerhat have enriched us a lot both in depth and breadth. Again public response to these events has also increased our responsibilities.

We have also reinforced our advocacy program during last twelve months. We had a pilot project at Ministry of Cultural Affairs, GoB, to migrate their business process to Open Source technologies. We also converted the computer laboratory, for ICT training, into a Ubuntu classroom successfully. Our volunteers have also trained a group of trainers with Open Source technologies at Ministry of Establishment.

We also have started working closely with two international organizations. One of them is CopySouth.org, who works with intellectual property rights, and the other is Open Document Format Olympiad. BdOSN has been assigned to arrange this Olympiad in Bangladesh.

With our very limited capacity and strength, we have already started contributing others’ endeavor. We are going to prepare off-line Wikipedia Disk for the digital education program started by Bangladesh Computer Society. A ceremony is going to take place at BCS Computer City, Agargaon, Dhaka.

We also extended our effort in Bangla Wikipedia. There was a dedicated session on Wikipedia in Knowledge Festival, Bagerhat. With our support, the local people of Bagerhat has taken a project to enrich information related to Bagerhat in Wikipedia. We are now collecting the information. Later we will replicate this process in other districts.

We have already moved to Katabon. We are sharing our new office with Jamil Sarwar Trust. To fund our activities, we absolutely depend on BdOSN members. We take this chance to thank our patrons for keeping faith on us. It have really been a privilege. This year, we also have published book on Open Source. Eminent writer Muhammed Zafar Iqnal opened the book cover.

All these milestones and achievements have only been due to your wholehearted support. We are grateful to you. Your support and contribution will also help us move forward in coming days.

Like previous years, we will also gather this year at BdOSN office. We will be there from 5pm to 6:30 pm and meet each others. Everyone is invited with friends and family. We do not want to celebrate without YOU!

There is a saying. “Throughout history, every generation has had to stand up for freedom. Now it's our turn”.

On behalf of all BdOSN volunteer,

Munir Hasan

Secretary General

Bangladesh Open Source Network

Jamil Sarwar Trust

Dhaka

A word of caution. In my opinion, when reading Google Testing Blog,
you have to keep in mind that when they talk about testing, they are
usually referring to unit tests or automated tests. I have no problem
with that (well actually I do in some cases), but the common
misconception I see is that agile programmers or so-called automation
testers or programmer drop-offs (i.e. they are tester now) read these
posts and think that is all there is to it.

So folks, I think unit tests or automated tests are all good and dandy
in specific cases, and sure it helps in testing, and I also think the
Google Testing Blog is not telling you where it can be effective (or
even a disaster). So don't get their writings wrong. Understand the
problems they are trying to solve. Understand the context of Google
Testing Blog. Also understand, that although they are Google, they are
not always right :)

Regards,
Sajjadul Hakim
http://rapidtester.blogspot.com/


On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 6:17 PM, Tahmid Munaz <to.munaz@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Here i am sharing what i just read from the Google Testing Blog. You may find
it interesting!
> Hope to hear your valuable feedback.
>
> N.B: I use Google reader to read RSS feeds and this is the 1st time i am
sharing a post using Google reader to the SQABD Group directly. Hope it will not
get messy :)
>
> Regards,
> Tahmid Munaz
>
>
>
>
> Sent to you by Tahmid Munaz via Google Reader:
>
>
>
>
> Cost of Testing
>
> via Google Testing Blog by Misko on 10/2/09
> By Miško Hevery
>
> A lot of people have been asking me lately, what is the cost of testing, so I
decided, that I will try to measure it, to dispel the myth that testing takes
twice as long.
>
> For the last two weeks I have been keeping track of the amount of time I spent
writing tests versus the time writing production code. The number surprised even
me, but after I thought about it, it makes a lot of sense. The magic number is
about 10% of time spent on writing tests. Now before, you think I am nuts, let
me back it up with some real numbers from a personal project I have been working
on.
>
> TotalProductionTestRatio
> Commits1,3471,3471,347
> LOC14,7098,7115,98840.78%
> JavaScript LOC10,0776,8193,25832.33%
> Ruby LOC4,6321,8922,74059.15%
> Lines/Commit10.926.474.4540.78%
> Hours(estimate)1,2001,08012010.00%
> Hours/Commit0.890.800.09
> Mins/Commit53485
> Commits refers to the number of commits I have made to the repository. LOC is
lines of code which is broken down by language. The ratio shows the typical
breakdown between the production and test code when you test drive and it is
about half, give or take a language. It is interesting to note that on average I
commit about 11 lines out of which 6.5 are production and 4.5 are test. Now,
keep in mind this is average, a lot of commits are large where you add a lot of
code, but then there are a lot of commits where you are tweaking stuff, so the
average is quite low.
>
> The number of hours spent on the project is my best estimate, as I have not
kept track of these numbers. Also, the 10% breakdown comes from keeping track of
my coding habits for the last two weeks of coding. But, these are my best
guesses.
>
> Now when I test drive, I start with writing a test which usually takes me few
minutes (about 5 minutes) to write. The test represents my scenario. I then
start implementing the code to make the scenario pass, and the implementation
usually takes me a lot longer (about 50 minutes). The ratio is highly
asymmetrical! Why does it take me so much less time to write the scenario than
it does to write the implementation given that they are about the same length?
Well look at a typical test and implementation:
>
> Here is a typical test for a feature:
>
> ArrayTest.prototype.testFilter = function() {
>  var items = ["MIsKO", {name:"john"}, ["mary"], 1234];
>  assertEquals(4, items.filter("").length);
>  assertEquals(4, items.filter(undefined).length);
>
>  assertEquals(1, items.filter('iSk').length);
>  assertEquals("MIsKO", items.filter('isk')[0]);
>
>  assertEquals(1, items.filter('ohn').length);
>  assertEquals(items[1], items.filter('ohn')[0]);
>
>  assertEquals(1, items.filter('ar').length);
>  assertEquals(items[2], items.filter('ar')[0]);
>
>  assertEquals(1, items.filter('34').length);
>  assertEquals(1234, items.filter('34')[0]);
>
>  assertEquals(0, items.filter("I don't exist").length);
> };
>
> ArrayTest.prototype.testShouldNotFilterOnSystemData = function() {
>  assertEquals("", "".charAt(0)); // assumption
>  var items = [{$name:"misko"}];
>  assertEquals(0, items.filter("misko").length);
> };
>
> ArrayTest.prototype.testFilterOnSpecificProperty = function() {
>  var items = [{ignore:"a", name:"a"}, {ignore:"a", name:"abc"}];
>  assertEquals(2, items.filter({}).length);
>
>  assertEquals(2, items.filter({name:'a'}).length);
>
>  assertEquals(1, items.filter({name:'b'}).length);
>  assertEquals("abc", items.filter({name:'b'})[0].name);
> };
>
> ArrayTest.prototype.testFilterOnFunction = function() {
>  var items = [{name:"a"}, {name:"abc", done:true}];
>  assertEquals(1, items.filter(function(i){return i.done;}).length);
> };
>
> ArrayTest.prototype.testFilterIsAndFunction = function() {
>  var items = [{first:"misko", last:"hevery"},
>               {first:"mike", last:"smith"}];
>
>  assertEquals(2, items.filter({first:'', last:''}).length);
>  assertEquals(1, items.filter({first:'', last:'hevery'}).length);
>  assertEquals(0, items.filter({first:'mike', last:'hevery'}).length);
>  assertEquals(1, items.filter({first:'misko', last:'hevery'}).length);
>  assertEquals(items[0], items.filter({first:'misko', last:'hevery'})[0]);
> };
>
> ArrayTest.prototype.testFilterNot = function() {
>  var items = ["misko", "mike"];
>
>  assertEquals(1, items.filter('!isk').length);
>  assertEquals(items[1], items.filter('!isk')[0]);
> };
>
> Now here is code which implements this scenario tests above:
>
> Array.prototype.filter = function(expression) {
>  var predicates = [];
>  predicates.check = function(value) {
>    for (var j = 0; j < predicates.length; j++) {
>       if(!predicates[j](value)) {
>         return false;
>       }
>     }
>     return true;
>   };
>   var getter = Scope.getter;
>   var search = function(obj, text){
>     if (text.charAt(0) === '!') {
>       return !search(obj, text.substr(1));
>     }
>     switch (typeof obj) {
>     case "bolean":
>     case "number":
>     case "string":
>       return ('' + obj).toLowerCase().indexOf(text) > -1;
>    case "object":
>      for ( var objKey in obj) {
>        if (objKey.charAt(0) !== '$' && search(obj[objKey], text)) {
>          return true;
>        }
>      }
>      return false;
>    case "array":
>      for ( var i = 0; i < obj.length; i++) {
>        if (search(obj[i], text)) {
>          return true;
>        }
>      }
>      return false;
>    default:
>      return false;
>    }
>  };
>  switch (typeof expression) {
>    case "bolean":
>    case "number":
>    case "string":
>      expression = {$:expression};
>    case "object":
>      for (var key in expression) {
>        if (key == '$') {
>          (function(){
>            var text = (''+expression[key]).toLowerCase();
>            if (!text) return;
>            predicates.push(function(value) {
>              return search(value, text);
>            });
>          })();
>        } else {
>          (function(){
>            var path = key;
>            var text = (''+expression[key]).toLowerCase();
>            if (!text) return;
>            predicates.push(function(value) {
>              return search(getter(value, path), text);
>            });
>          })();
>        }
>      }
>      break;
>    case "function":
>      predicates.push(expression);
>      break;
>    default:
>      return this;
>  }
>  var filtered = [];
>  for ( var j = 0; j < this.length; j++) {
>    var value = this[j];
>    if (predicates.check(value)) {
>      filtered.push(value);
>    }
>  }
>  return filtered;
> };
>
> Now, I think that if you look at these two chunks of code, it is easy to see
that even though they are about the same length, one is much harder to write.
The reason, why tests take so little time to write is that they are linear in
nature. No loops, ifs or interdependencies with other tests. Production code is
a different story, I have to create complex ifs, loops and have to make sure
that the implementation works not just for one test, but all test. This is why
it takes you so much longer to write production than test code. In this
particular case, I remember rewriting this function three times, before I got it
to work as expected. :-)
>
> So a naive answer is that writing test carries a 10% tax. But, we pay taxes in
order to get something in return. Here is what I get for 10% which pays me back:
>
> When I implement a feature I don't have to start up the whole application and
click several pages until I get to page to verify that a feature works. In this
case it means that I don't have to refreshing the browser, waiting for it to
load a dataset and then typing some test data and manually asserting that I got
what I expected. This is immediate payback in time saved!
> Regression is almost nil. Whenever you are adding new feature you are running
the risk of breaking something other then what you are working on immediately
(since you are not working on it you are not actively testing it). At least once
a day I have a what the @#$% moment when a change suddenly breaks a test at the
opposite end of the codebase which I did not expect, and I count my lucky stars.
This is worth a lot of time spent when you discover that a feature you thought
was working no longer is, and by this time you have forgotten how the feature is
implemented.
> Cognitive load is greatly reduced since I don't have to keep all of the
assumptions about the software in my head, this makes it really easy to switch
tasks or to come back to a task after a meeting, good night sleep or a weekend.
> I can refactor the code at will, keeping it from becoming stagnant, and hard
to understand. This is a huge problem on large projects, where the code works,
but it is really ugly and everyone is afraid to touch it. This is worth money
tomorrow to keep you going.
>
> These benefits translate to real value today as well as tomorrow. I write
tests, because the additional benefits I get more than offset the additional
cost of 10%. Even if I don't include the long term benefits, the value I get
from test today are well worth it. I am faster in developing code with test. How
much, well that depends on the complexity of the code. The more complex the
thing you are trying to build is (more ifs/loops/dependencies) the greater the
benefit of tests are.
>
> So now you understand my puzzled look when people ask me how much
slower/costlier the development with tests is.
>
>
>
> Things you can do from here:
>
> Subscribe to Google Testing Blog using Google Reader
> Get started using Google Reader to easily keep up with all your favorite sites
>
>
>
>

If this so-called board is anything related to the topics in their
forum, I think the intelligent ones among us will stay as far away
from it as possible:
http://www.bstb.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=ca294813109b233c585f22a4d8c8b8f6


I just hope this is not their official site. Well even if it is, I
wouldn't be surprised, since their mission only talks about how they
plan to make money, and nothing about improving the skills of testers:
http://www.bstb.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=6


Regards,
Sajjadul Hakim
http://rapidtester.blogspot.com/


On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Abu Mohammad Omar Shehab Uddin Ayub
<shehab@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Does anyone have any idea about this board? They do not reply to emails. :(
>
> Thanks in advance about your reply.
> |=============|
> Regards,
> Abu Mohammad Omar Shehab Uddin Ayub
> (আবু মোহাম্মদ ওমর
শেহাবউদ্দীন আইয়ুব)
> Senior Software Engineer, Nilavo Technologies, Banani, Dhaka
> Bangladesh Open Source Network, Dhaka
> 2000 batch, Dept. of CSE, SUST
>
>

Clearly the intention was not to share filthy topic names, but to
reveal negligence of an organization that advertises itself as a
testing board of "Bangladesh"! That, my friend, is allowed :)

Regards,
Sajjadul Hakim
http://rapidtester.blogspot.com/


On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Shaikh Sonny Aman <mailtoaman@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Sajjad vai!!
> Isn't there any prohibition for not to share porn link in this group?!!!
> then gotcha.... :) :P
>
>
>
> On Oct 28, 2009, at 1:25 PM, Sajjadul Hakim wrote:
>
> If this so-called board is anything related to the topics in their
> forum, I think the intelligent ones among us will stay as far away
> from it as possible:
>
http://www.bstb.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=ca294813109b233c585f22a4d8c8b8f6
>
> I just hope this is not their official site. Well even if it is, I
> wouldn't be surprised, since their mission only talks about how they
> plan to make money, and nothing about improving the skills of testers:
> http://www.bstb.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=6
>
> Regards,
> Sajjadul Hakim
> http://rapidtester.blogspot.com/
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Abu Mohammad Omar Shehab Uddin Ayub
> <shehab@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Does anyone have any idea about this board? They do not reply to emails. :(
> >
> > Thanks in advance about your reply.
> > |=============|
> > Regards,
> > Abu Mohammad Omar Shehab Uddin Ayub
> > (আবু মোহাম্মদ ওমর
শেহাবউদ্দীন আইয়ুব)
> > Senior Software Engineer, Nilavo Technologies, Banani, Dhaka
> > Bangladesh Open Source Network, Dhaka
> > 2000 batch, Dept. of CSE, SUST
> >
> >
>
> ---
> Regards.
> Shaikh Sonny Aman
> http://www.amanpages.com
>
>
>
>

Dear all,

We have fully localized the Mozilla Firefox (version 3.5) into Bangla(Bangladesh), along with this we have developed a Bangla Spell Checker consist of 100,000 unique words. To celebrate this occasion, Ankur is arranging a release party supported by Mozilla foundation with swags and Presidency University with a place to host the party. There will be a lightening talk on Firefox 3.5 features and demonstration of Bangla spell checker. The party is open; join us to get Mozilla swags.

Party details

• Date: Thursday, 29th October 2009.
• Time: 4:00 PM to 6:00 PM
• Venue: Library Room, Presidency University - Banani Campus.
• googlemap
• FB Event Page

Tips and tricks to rescue overdue projects

One of my friends, who runs his own offshore development shop, was having nightmare situation with one of his customers. He's way overdue on a release, the customer is screaming everyday, he's paying his team from his own pocket, customer is sending an ever increasing list of changes and so on. Here's how we discussed some ideas to get out of such a situation and make sure it does not repeat in future:

Kabir: Hey, can you help me? My customer is making us work for free for extra two months to fix bugs from our last delivery. We did what he said. But after he saw the output, he came up with hundred changes, which he somehow presents as bugs or missing features and make them look like they are all our fault and making us work for last two months for free. He is sending new changes every week. We have no idea when we will complete the iteration.

Omar: I see. Did you get a signed list of requirements from customer before you started the development?

Kabir: Of course, I did. He sent us a word document explaining what he wants and we sent him a task breakup with hour estimates and total duration of three months. Now after three months when we showed him the product, he said, it's no where close to what he had expected. Then he sent a gigantic list of things to change.

Omar: All of those are bugs?

Kabir: Of course not. Most of them are new features.

Omar: Then why don't you say those are new features? You have the original word document to prove. Just ask him to show where in the word document did he said X needs to be done?

Kabir: Well..., he's tricky. He somehow makes things look like it is obvious that X needs to be done and he's not going to accept a requirement as done until X is done. For example, he said there must be a complete login form in the homepage. So, we did a typical login form with user name, password and OK, Cancel button. Now he says where's the email verification thing? We said, you did not ask for it. He said, "this is obvious, every login form has a forgot password and email verification; I said *complete* login form, not half-baked login form". So, you see, we can't really argue to keep our image. Then, we did the login form exactly how he said. Now he says, where the client side validations of proper email address, username length, password confirmation? We said, you never asked for it! He says, "come on, every single website nowadays has AJAX enabled client side validation, do I have to tell you every single thing? Aren't you guys smart enough to figure this out? You are already doing this for the third time, can't you do it really well this time?"

Omar: OK, stop. I see what's your problem. Some customer will always try to make you work more for less money. They will try to squeeze out every bit of development they can for their bucks. So, you have to be extra careful on how much you commit to them and make sure they cannot chip in more requirements while development is going on or when you deliver a version. Mockups are one good way to make sure things are crystal clear between you and customer.  Did you not show him mockups of the features that you will be building and make him sign those mockups?

Kabir: Yes, I made some mockups. But they were simple mockups. I did not show the validations or all those side jobs like sending verification emails.

Omar: Did you run those mockups through your engineers? They could have told you about those details.

Kabir: No, I did not because developers don't work on the project until I get a signoff from client. So, I prepare all the mockups myself to save cost.

Omar: So, this is the first problem. The mockups were as ambiguous as the customer's word document. Basically the mockups just reflected the sentences in word document. Mockups did not really show all possible navigations (ok, cancel, forgot, signup), system messages, system actions behind the scene, workflows etc. Are you getting what I am saying?

Kabir: Yes. Come on, I am not a developer. I can't think of every single details. That's what developers do when they start working on it.

Omar: But you provide estimates based on your mockups right? So, if mockup shows there's only a simple login form and change password link, you charge 5 hours for it. But then when you realize you have to send email for change password, email needs to contain a tokenized URL, that URL needs to show a change password form, where you need to validate using CAPTCHA etc, it becomes 20 hours of work. Right?

Kabir: Well yes. Generally I multiply all estimates by 1.5 just to be safe. But things have gone 3X to 10X off original estimate.

Omar: Yes, I just gave you an example how a login form estimate can go 4X off when the mockup is not run through an engineer and the important issues are not addressed.

Kabir: So, you are saying I have to prepare all mockup with an engineer?

Omar: In general, yes, since you aren't good enough to figure those out yourself; no offence. You will get good enough after you build couple of products and get your a** kicked couple of times, like mine. Mine got kicked about 17 times. After that it became so hard that when I sit on it, I produce really good mockups. After some more kicks, I hope to get 100% perfect in my mockups.

Kabir: Ok, so the process is, I get word doc from customer. I produce mockups from it. Then I run them through engineers to add more details to them. Then after review with customer, I run them through engineers again to estimate. Then I ask customer to sign-off on the mockups and the estimate, correct?

Omar: Well, first let me say, you don't do a three month long iteration since you are far away from your customer. You do short two weeks sprints. Do you know SCRUM?

Kabir: Yes, one of our team does it.

Omar: I assume the team that got their a** kicked don't do it?

Kabir: right, they don't.

Omar: OK, then first you start doing SCRUM. I won't teach you details. You can study about SCRUM online. Now, you collect 'user stories' from customer. If customer does not give you user stories, just vague paras of requirements, you break the requirements into small user stories. Understood?

Kabir: No, give example.

Omar: OK, say customer wants a *complete* login form. You break it into couple of stories like:

• User clicks on "login" link from homepage so that user can login to the system
  • User enters username (min 5, max 255 chars, only alphanumeric) in the username text field
  • User enters password (min 5, max 50 chars, only alphanumeric) in the password field
  • User clicks on "OK" button after entering username and password.
  • System validates username and password and shows the secure portal if credential is valid and user has permission to login and account is not locked.

Understood what user stories are?

Kabir: Yes, but you are missing all the validations that we also overlooked and now we are working two months for free. This "user stories" do not help at all.

Omar: Hold on, you just saw basic steps of a user story. Now you describe each user story with the following:

• All possible inputs of user and their valid format
• All possible system generated messages for invalid input
• All possible alternate navigation from the main user story. For example, while entering password, user can click on a help icon so that user can see what kind of passwords are allowed.

Got it?

Kabir: Now it's starting to make sense. Then what? Show these user stories to customers?

Omar: No, show them to your lead engineer who has enough experience to identify if you missed something. Your Engr should point out all the alternative system actions at least.

Kabir: What if my Engr can't figure them out? What if he's just as dumb as me?

Omar: Fire him. Get a pay cut for yourself.

Kabir: Seriously, what do I do if that's the case?

Omar: Your engineers will *always* come up with issues with your mockups. You should always use another pair of eyes to verify your mockups and add more details to it. You aren't the only smart guy in the world you know?

Kabir: I thought I was, ok. What's next?

Omar: File those user stories in your issue tracking system in some special category. Say "User Stories" category. What do you use for your issue tracking system?

Kabir: Flyspray

Omar: Good enough. Create a new project in Filespray named "User Stories". File tasks for user stories. Each story, one task. Attach the mockup to the tasks. Then create one account for your customer so that customer can login and see the user stories, make comments, suggest changes etc. You will get the conversation with your customer recorded as comments in the task. This comes handy for engineers and for resolving dispute later on. Moreover, get your customer to prioritize the tasks properly. Understood?

Kabir: I don't think customer will go through that trouble. Customer will ask for some word document that has all the user stories and she will write in the document what are the changes. I will have to reflect them in Flyspray. Is it really necessary to file user stories in Flysrpay? Can't I just maintain one word doc with customer?

Omar: Absolutely not. Word documents suffer from versioning problem. You have one version, your customer has another version, your engineers have another version. it becomes a nightmare to move around with word docs which has many user stories in it and keep them in sync all the time. Moreover, referencing a particular use case also becomes a problem. Say at later stage of the project, there's a bug which needs to refer to User Story #123. You will have to say User Story #123 in \\centralserver\fileshare\user stories1.doc. Now if \\centralserver dies, or you put it somewhere else, all these references are gone. Don't go for word doc. Keep everything on the web that you can refer to it using a URL or small number. Another problem is numbering stories in Word Doc. Word won't produce unique ID for you. You will end up with duplicate user story numbers. If you use Flyspray, it's will generate unique ID for you.

Kabir: OK, let me see how I convince my customer to use Flyspray.

Omar: Yes, you should. If Flyspray is hard for customers, use some simple issue tracking system that's a no-brainer for non-engineers. Some fancy AJAX based todolist site will be good enough if it has picture attachment feature and auto task number feature.

Kabir: OK, I will find such a website. So, I got the user stories done. Now I show them to customer, review, make changes. Finally I get customer to sign off on User story #X to #Y for a two weeks sprint. Then what happens?

Omar: On your first day of sprint, you do a sprint planning meeting where you present those user stories to your engineers and ask them to break each story into small tasks and estimate each task. Make sure no engineer put 1 day or 2 day for any task. Break them into even smaller tasks like 4 hours of tasks. This will force your engineers to give enough thought into the stories and identify possible problems upfront. Generally when someone says this is going to take a day or two, s/he has no idea how to do it. S/he has not thought about the steps need to be done to complete that task. Your are getting an estimate that's either overestimated or underestimated. Forcing an engineer to allocate tasks in less than 4 hours slot makes an engineer think about the steps carefully. 

Kabir: If engineers do this level of estimate, they will think about each task for at least an hour. This is going to take days to finish estimating so many tasks. How do you do it in a day?

Omar: We do 4 hours Planning meeting where Product Owner explains the stories to engineers and then after 30 mins break, another 4 hours meeting where engineers pickup stories and breaks them into tasks and estimate on-the-fly. This 4 hours deadline is strictly maintained. If Product team cannot explain the tasks for a sprint in 4 hours, we don't do the tasks in the sprint. If the tasks are so complex or there are so many tasks that they cannot be explained in 4 hours, engineers unlikely to do them within one/two week long sprint. Similarly if engineers cannot estimate the tasks in their 4 hours slot, the tasks are just too complex to estimate and thus have high probability of not getting done in the sprint. So, we drop them as well.

Kabir: This is impossible! No one's going to attend 8 hours meeting on a day. Besides, telling them to estimate a task on the spot is super inefficient. They won't produce more than 60% correct estimates. They will give some lump sum estimate and then go away.

Omar: Incorrect, if engineers cannot make estimates of a task in 10 to 20 minutes, they don't have the capability of estimating at all. If your engineers are habituated to take a task from you for estimating and then go to their office, talk to their friends on the phone, drink soda, walk around, gossip with colleagues and end of the day if they have the mood to sit and think about the estimate then open a new mail, write some numbers and email it to you; they better learn to do this on-demand, when requested, within time constraint. It's a discipline that they need to learn and implement in their life. Estimates are something they do from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to sleep. Besides, the planning meeting is the best place to estimate tasks - all engineers are there, product team is there, your architects should be there, QA team is there. It's easy to ask questions, get ideas and helps from others.

Kabir: I have engineers who just can't do well under pressure. They need some undisturbed moment, where they can sit and think about tasks without anyone staring at them.

Omar: Train them to learn how to keep their head cool and do their job in the midst of attention. Anyway, let's stop talking about these auxiliary issues and talk about the most important issues. Where were we?

Kabir:About dropping tasks, I already negotiated with customer that we are going to do story A, B, C in this sprint. Now after the sprint planning meetings, engineers say they can't do B. Problem is I have already committed to deliver A, B, and C to customer within 2 weeks and sent him the invoice. How do I handle this?

Omar: How do you commit when you don't know how long A, B, and C are going to take?

Kabir: Customer tells me to do A, B, C within two weeks. And after doing some preliminary discussion with engineers, I commit to customer and then do the sprint planning meeting. I can't wait until the sprint meeting is done and developers have given me estimates of all the tasks.

Omar: Wrong. You commit to customer after the sprint planning meeting is done. Before that, you give customer just a list of things that you believe you can try to do in following two weeks. Tell customer that you will be able to confirm after the sprint planning meeting. The time to do a sprint meeting is only 8 hours = a day. So, end of the day, you have some concrete stuff to commit to customer. From your model where you give engineers days to estimate, it won't work. You have to finish planning within a day and end of the day, commit to customer.

Kabir: What if customer does not agree? What if he says, "I must get A, B and C in two weeks, otherwise I am going somewhere else?"

Omar: This is a hard situation. I am tempted to say that you tell your customer, "Go away!", but in reality you can't. You have to negotiate and come to a mutual agreement. You cannot just obey customer and say "Yes Mi Lord, we will do whatever you say" because you clearly cannot do it. The fact is, end of the sprint, you *will* get only A and C done and B not done. Then customer will Fedex you his shoes so that you can ask someone to kick you with it.

Kabir: Correct, so what do I do?

Omar: There are tricky solutions and non-tricky honest solutions to this. Tricky solution is, say you engaged 5 engineers in the project who can get A and C done in time. But you realize you need another engineer to do B, otherwise there's no way you can finish A, B and C in two weeks. So, you invoice customer with 6 engineers and get A, B and C done. Now customer may not agree with you paying for the 6th engineer. Then you do a clever trick. You engage the 6th engineer free of cost in this sprint. Don't tell customer that there's an extra head working in the project. Or you can tell customer that out of good will, you want to engage another engineer free of cost to make sure customer gets a timely delivery. This boosts your image. Later on, when you get a sprint that's more or less relaxed and 4 engineers can do the job, you secretly engage one engineer to some other project but still charge for 5 engineers to your customer. This way  you cover the cost for the 6th engineer that you secretly engaged earlier sprint. This is dirty. But when you have so hard a** customer who's forcing you "what", "when" and "how" all at the same time and not open to negotiation, you have no choice but to do these dirty tricks. You can also add extra one hour to every task for every engineer in a sprint or add some vague tasks like "Refactor User object to allow robust login". This way you will get quite some amount of extra hours that will compensate for the hidden free engineer that you engage. You get the idea right?

Kabir: Ingenious! And what's the honest and clear way to do these?

Omar: You negotiate with customer. You tell your customer that he or she can only have any two choices from Money-Scope-Time. This is called the project management triangle. Do you know about this?

Kabir: Googling...

Omar: Read this article:

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/project/HA010211801033.aspx

It shows a triangle like this:

So, your customer can specify any two. If customer specifies Scope and Time ("what" and "when"), then customer must be flexible on Money or "how" you do it within those two constraints. If customer specifies Money and Scope, then you are free to decide on time. You engage lower resource and take more time to get things done. Got the idea?

Kabir: Yes, understood. Nice, I can show this to customer and educate him. Is there any book for the evil tricks that you just gave me?

Omar: No, I might write one soon. I will name it "Customers are evil, so be you".

Raisul: Hey, I have fixed people engaged in a project. I can't change the number of people sprint-to-sprint to compensate for change in money. So, the triangle does not work for me. What do I do here?

Omar: Right. I also made a slightly different version of it. Here's my take:

This is for situation where you have fixed resource engaged for a particular customer. In that case, you cannot reduce people on-demand because you cannot reassign them. Such a case requires different strategy. If customer forces you Quality and Time, customer must be willing to sacrifice Quantity. Customer cannot say, produce perfect login form in 2 weeks and add cool ajax effects to it. Customer has to sacrifice cool ajax effects, or sacrifice *perfection* of login form, or sacrifice number of days.

From the above two triangles, which one's more appropriate for you?

Kabir: Second one because customer hires 5 engineers from me. I cannot take one away and engage in a different project. Well, not openly of course.

Omar: OK, sounds fair. What else do you need from me?

Kabir: Let me think about all these. This is definitely worth thinking. I have to figure out whether to play fair or play clever. End of the day, I need to produce great product, so that, I get good recommendation and future projects from customer. So, I need to do whatever it takes. It's hard to run an offshore dev shop where we kinda have to work like slaves and like a bunch of zombies mumble every 10 mins - "Customer is always right". You are very lucky to have your own company.

Omar: I had two offshore dev shops before Pageflakes. I know how it feels. Wish you good luck. I have seen your product, you guys are building a great ASP.NET MVC+jQuery application. Release it. It's worth showcasing.

Raisul: Thank you very much. See ya...

(End of chat)

This is the diagram my friend produced, which shows the steps to do before a sprint is started:

Handy for Product Managers. Enlightening for developers.

Hello All,

I have discussed with my colleagues in different organization, which one is
preferable: Job life or Student life?

Answer goes for both; people are there liking job life and student life as well.
My opinion is for student life :) there was lot of fun. Anyone can do well in
exam if just maintaining class lecture and last 2/3 months serious study. Other
than these 2/3 months we can do e.g. today I am not feeling good, nice day for
sleep etc. But job life is different: there are challenges, work load, time
maintaining and so on. Here what I like to focus; how to improve and can make
our job life more fun and enjoyable.

Many of you could disagree with my point and still I like to have your opinion.
One of my colleague already started thread in agilebd Google group.

Thanks in advance for your improvement suggestion.


Shaiful.