--- Bob Lee <crazybob@c...> wrote:
> I just posted the source for this AOP framework I've been
> working on to my web site. It enables you to dynamically
> intercept public method invocations, member or static, no
> interfaces required. The code still has a way to go, but
> it's functional. Thought you all might find it interesting.
>
> http://crazybob.org/

I really liked jAdvise, but it looks like Bob Lee has moved on
to "bigger and better" things.  Here are some alternatives:

  - AspectJ = a very powerful and well supported AOP tool.
         http://eclipse.org/aspectj/

  - dynaop = Bob's new AOP library
         https://dynaop.dev.java.net/

  - JBOSS AOP = similar in concept to jAdvise
         http://www.jboss.org/products/aop

And there are plenty of others.  Here's just one list:
    http://www.roseindia.net/opensource/aopframework.php

Jeff

If you are interested, I have a demo app that uses hibernate and a
presentation that I gave to some coworkers.
http://www.shoesobjects.com/blog/2004/04/23/1082756359000.html

Mike Shoemaker
mike@...


On Jun 9, 2004, at 9:13 PM, Jeff Grigg wrote:

> --- "Jack Frosch" <jfrosch@o...> wrote:
>  > (I've just begun reading about Hibernate,
>  > http://hibernate.sourceforge.net, and have to admit, it
>  > looks very interesting.  [...])
>
>  I've heard that Hibernate is very good, but haven't had a chance to
>  use it myself.  (We're using TopLink.)
>
>
>  If your database is of small to moderate size, and you like code
>  simplicity and/or high performance, consider also Object Prevalence
>  technology.  It's like an "in memory database," implemented directly
>  in your host application language.  (But don't think of it as a
>  database -- it supports ACID properties, but not rollbacks.)
>
>  See:
> http://www.prevayler.org/wiki.jsp?topic=PrevalenceSkepticalFAQ
>
>  Prevayler for Java,
>  Bamboo for .NET (C#):
> http://bbooprevalence.sourceforge.net/
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
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> <l.gif>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>  •  To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stlroundtable/
>  
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> Service.
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>

I don't buy computer books anymore because I'm already swimming in pulp.  I've
moved enough across the country to not want to accumulate more stacks of books. 
Instead, I like to use Safari on orielly, which lets me have up to 5 or so
computer books available online.

Tim

Jeff Grigg <jgrigg@...> wrote:
--- "Jack Frosch" wrote:
> One interesting, and mildly disturbing, statistic was
> presented at the keynote address by Dave Thomas.
> While discussing the need for continual learning, he
> said a recent survey showed 90% of developers don't
> purchase books on development. I suspect many of
> the same folks would never attend training unless
> someone else was paying for it.

--- Mike Shoemaker wrote:
> [...] I guess those 90% still don't know that Dave
> mentioned them since, of course, they were not there ;)

I like to say that they don't have the books because /I bought them
all!!!/ Bwaaaa,ha,ha,ha,ha!!! (...evil laugh. ;-)

Funny... I'm not the only one with a Computer Science college
major. And yet they don't see the value in buying a book now and
then, and/or reading a magazine article? I guess they (or their
parents) paid for college, so they must have learned it all?






Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Jeff,
I don't do much anymore with this, but I made you a moderator and you are
welcome.  I would be happy to make anyone else that I know personally a
moderator as well.
Let me know if you need other priviledges.
Tim

Jeff Grigg <jgrigg@...> wrote:
--- "Tim Burns" wrote:
> Hi,
> Are you guys able to get into the database?
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stlroundtable/database
>
> The core stlroundtable members have been flagged as
> "moderators" and are able to update this database.
> Anyone else can see it. What do you guys think?
> Personally, I think it could be very valuable.
> I'd like to have a lot more filled in and various
> other smaller companies included.

Here's an update that could be done:


"Daugherty Systems"

is now known as

"Daugherty Business Solutions"

Located at:
Three CityPlace Drive
Suite 400
Saint Louis, MO 63141

Phone: 314-432-8200
800-737-8217
FAX: 314-432-8217

http://www.daugherty.com






Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- "Jack Frosch" <jfrosch@o...> wrote:
> (I've just begun reading about Hibernate,
> http://hibernate.sourceforge.net, and have to admit, it
> looks very interesting.  [...])

I've heard that Hibernate is very good, but haven't had a chance to
use it myself.  (We're using TopLink.)


If your database is of small to moderate size, and you like code
simplicity and/or high performance, consider also Object Prevalence
technology.  It's like an "in memory database," implemented directly
in your host application language.  (But don't think of it as a
database -- it supports ACID properties, but not rollbacks.)

See:
http://www.prevayler.org/wiki.jsp?topic=PrevalenceSkepticalFAQ

Prevayler for Java,
Bamboo for .NET (C#):
http://bbooprevalence.sourceforge.net/

--- "Tim Burns" <tburns@o...> wrote:
> Hi,
> Are you guys able to get into the database?
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stlroundtable/database
>
> The core stlroundtable members have been flagged as
> "moderators" and are able to update this database.
> Anyone else can see it.  What do you guys think?
> Personally, I think it could be very valuable.
> I'd like to have a lot more filled in and various
> other smaller companies included.

Here's an update that could be done:


"Daugherty Systems"

   is now known as

"Daugherty Business Solutions"

Located at:
   Three CityPlace Drive
   Suite 400
   Saint Louis, MO  63141

Phone: 314-432-8200
        800-737-8217
FAX:   314-432-8217

http://www.daugherty.com

--- Mike Shoemaker <mike@s...> wrote:
> I began Sunday with Test Driven Development presented
> by Mike Clark.  [...]  I did, however, disagree with
> his statement that the tests could be delivered to
> clients of your code instead of javadoc.  [...]

I think that when writing reusable libraries to be used by others,
JavaDoc is probably very important to people who will use but not
modify the library code.

As a deliverable to people who will /maintain/ the code, however, I
think that JUnit tests, along with some kind high level description
that will help them understand the overall organization of the
system, will be *most* helpful.  Figuring out how to test changes to
legacy code that someone else wrote can be *remarkably* difficult.
A good library of JUnit tests can largely solve this problem.

--- "Jack Frosch" <jfrosch@o...> wrote:
> One interesting, and mildly disturbing, statistic was
> presented at the keynote address by Dave Thomas.
> While discussing the need for continual learning, he
> said a recent survey showed 90% of developers don't
> purchase books on development.  I suspect many of
> the same folks would never attend training unless
> someone else was paying for it.

--- Mike Shoemaker <mike@s...> wrote:
> [...]  I guess those 90% still don't know that Dave
> mentioned them since, of course, they were not there ;)

I like to say that they don't have the books because /I bought them
all!!!/  Bwaaaa,ha,ha,ha,ha!!!  (...evil laugh.  ;-)

Funny...  I'm not the only one with a Computer Science college
major.  And yet they don't see the value in buying a book now and
then, and/or reading a magazine article?  I guess they (or their
parents) paid for college, so they must have learned it all?

From: "Mike Shoemaker" <mike@...>

> be.  He stated his testing indicated a potential for holding the same
> kinds of information as HttpSessions with reasonably similar performance
> and overhead.  Not sure what to think about that one.  Ive always stayed

I've seen similar testing results also.  However, there are important
caveats:

* There are purchase price benefits to handling your sessions at the front
end, where you use (generally cheaper) Web app servers, vs. at the back end,
where you might be using a high-cost-per-CPU EJB server

* Web app servers are generally more mature and tuned for a large number of
concurrent sessions, since far more people are using that approach

* Most of the nicer web app frameworks will need sessions at that tier, so
you'll probably have sessions there for that reasons.

* I once saw an architecture that had sessions at both the web tier and EJB
tier.  That's, in general, a large waste and bad idea.  It does double the
work for little extra benefit, and add more failure modes and more need for
complex clustering mechanism, all of which increase cost.


It seems like much of the enterprise development "best practice" community
has congealed around the idea of stateless services in the back-end
application server tier; that model serves a great number of applications
well, though it's not suited for all problems.  Notably, if you find
yourself reinventing sessions at the application level, that's a good sign
that you shouldn't be pretending you are using a stateless servive model.


[ Kyle Cordes * kyle@... * http://kylecordes.com ]
[ Consulting and Software development tips and techniques   ]
[ for Java, EJB, Delphi, the BDE Alternatives Guide, & more ]

Thanks for your input Jack.  Good point about MDB's.  I failed to
mention that.  I can see how they would be quite useful in an enterprise
environment.  Ooops did I just say the "E" word.  He also stated that
Stateful Session Beans were not as bad as the industry perceives them to
be.  He stated his testing indicated a potential for holding the same
kinds of information as HttpSessions with reasonably similar performance
and overhead.  Not sure what to think about that one.  Ive always stayed
away from Stateful beans.

Im with you on Hibernate, I want to understand more about it and get a
sample web application put together before forming an opinion.  It seems
promising though.

Dave's presentation was top notch.  I guess those 90% still don't know
that Dave mentioned them since, of course, they were not there ;)


Mike

Like Mike, I attended the symposium.  For those who didn't, I can only
say, you missed one of St. Louis' best training opportunities in years.

I attended several of the same sessions as Mike and found them generally
very useful.  I would say that in Bruce Tate's "Bitter EJB"
presentation, Bruce was NOT down on EJBs at all, just Entity Beans.  He
said he liked the whole JMS/MDB thing a lot and also thought
SessionBeans (preferably stateless) are a good solution for large-scale,
distributed applications.  He was down on EntityBeans (as would be
anyone who worked with EJB 1.1 BMP), and suggested consideration of
alternative persistence mechanisms, like JDO and Hibernate.

(I've just begun reading about Hibernate,
http://hibernate.sourceforge.net, and have to admit, it looks very
interesting.  Once I get my mind around how it does the O-R mapping, the
framework will probably become addictive because of its power and
simplicity. Large, unwieldy SQL involving multi-table joins is reduced
to a couple of lines of code.  And of course, unlike EJB-QL, all the
desired SQL constructs are available, including ORDER BY, HAVING, GROUP
BY, as well as standard functions.)

One interesting, and mildly disturbing, statistic was presented at the
keynote address by Dave Thomas.  While discussing the need for continual
learning, he said a recent survey showed 90% of developers don't
purchase books on development.  I suspect many of the same folks would
never attend training unless someone else was paying for it.

However, I was heartened to see about 150 people, probably including
several stlroundtable members, gave up their weekend to attend this
event.

Jack

Hello Stranger

I attended the Gateway Java Symposium this weekend and thought I post
my experiences.

The conference started off at 1:15pm on Friday.  The first session I
attended was on webservices.  Jason Hunter, the servlet guy, presented
an overview of webservices while explaining the difference between SOAP
and REST approaches.  After hearing a bit about REST, it dawned on me
that my group at work have a home rolled implementation of this.  Weird
how something I thought I knew very little about is actually familiar.
The second session was on Xdoclet.  Eric Hatcher, the guy that wrote
mannings ant book, presented this.  I saw the usefulness of the tool,
but it didn't contain any "shock and awe" that will push me to try it
out anytime soon.  Following lunch I attended "Dynamic Java", which
went over bytecode generation/manipulation using the BCEL from Apache.
It also involved  a lengthy discussion of Reflections and how it could
be used effectively.  Again, nothing that really shook my world.
Dinner was served following this session, which was great because I was
starved.  A keynote by Dave Thomas, author of The Pragmatic Programmer,
which was highlight of the day.  Dave went into the ways we get
ourselves in unmanageable situations.  He offered 12 practices to help
manage hitting deadlines, budgets, etc.  Fantastic speaker with a topic
that hit home with everyone.

Saturday morning I attended Bitter EJB presented by Bitter Bruce Tate,
actually he was bitter at all but since he is authoring his second book
in the serious the name sticks in my head ;)  For those of you who
don't already know, our very own Bob Lee is coauthoring Bitter EJB with
Bruce and several others.  Anyway, Bruce's talk was fantastic and
reaffirmed that my dislike for EJB's was shared by others as well.
While Session beans might have their place, Ill always view them as
monolithic utility classes that pollute source trees.  After Bitter EJB
lunch was served and all attendee's got to ask questions to the expert
panel, consisting of Ted Neward, Bruce Tate, Stuart Halloway, Robert
Martin, Jason Hunter, and James Duncan Davidson.  This was quite
interesting.  There were many strong conflicting opinions on where Java
was headed, how dynamically typed languages could play a role in the
next "java", and lots of other rants and raves.  After the expert panel
ended, I attend the Robert Martins next two sessions.  OO Class design
and Java package design.  He was nothing short of spectacular.  I
enjoyed both sessions as well as his diatribe's on astronomy and atoms.
   That finished up Saturday.

I began Sunday with Test Driven Development presented by Mike Clark.
This was a 3hr long(2 sessions) explanation of how to use Junit and
also the various tools that complement it.  I thought he did a good job
of presenting the material.  He was clear and concise about how to use
these tools to deliver higher quality software with possibly a better
design.  I did, however, disagree with his statement that the tests
could be delivered to clients of your code instead of javadoc.  After
lunch I attended Objective C presented by James Duncan Davidson(author
of tomcat and ant).  Even though this topic had no bearing on my day to
day professional life, I was very interested.   I recently purchased a
Titanium Powerbook and wanted to learn more about Objective C as a
language and Cocoa as a framework for OS X.  I left realizing I have a
lot more to learn in order to do anything productive on this machine
with respect to Objective C and Cocoa. I did enjoy the course though.
The final session that I attend was Aspect Oriented Java.  Bob Lee
presented this and went into various frameworks floating around the
net, including one that he wrote.  This topic really sparked my
interest after hearing how easy it would be to put logging into all
methods in all classes without cluttering up every class with this
code.  In other words, you could implement this logic once and
interject it at runtime.  Now how cool is that.  I know several members
of my team would have loved to know about this approach a few months
back.  They had to sprinkle audit logging in all of our source in order
to comply with HIPPA regulations.  Not the most pleasant thing to do.

I saw several other roundtable members at the conference, Id love to
hear their thoughts on the conference and the speakers as well.

Mike

I just posted the source for this AOP framework I've been working on to
my web site. It enables you to dynamically intercept public method
invocations, member or static, no interfaces required. The code still
has a way to go, but it's functional. Thought you all might find it
interesting.

http://crazybob.org/

I plan on using this to filter WebLogic EJB invocations on the server
side, however the possibilities are *much* larger.

Thanks,
Bob

For those of you who have an interest in learning the Python programming
language, the Python St. Louis User Group is about to begin their Python
Mentor Program. Participation is free. Mentoring will take place on a
separate mailing list, as well as at regular meetings. Books are available
from our library.

Details can be found on the PyStl website:

     http://www.pystl.org

You can join the mentor list at:

     http://lists.zpug.org/mailman/listinfo/pystl-mentor

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

--
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech      http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien
-----------------------------------------------
"Your source for Python programming expertise."
-----------------------------------------------

I'll be up there.

Bob

On 9/28/02 8:32 AM, "Patrick K. O'Brien" <pobrien@...> wrote:

> Is this meeting still on? I had forgot that my wife and daughter were going
> camping with the Girl Scouts this weekend. So I'm home entertaining my son
> and won't be able to make this meeting after all. :-(
>
> Pat
>
> --
> Patrick K. O'Brien
> Orbtech
> -----------------------------------------------
> "Your source for Python programming expertise."
> -----------------------------------------------
> Web:  http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien/
> Blog: http://www.orbtech.com/blog/pobrien/
> Wiki: http://www.orbtech.com/wiki/PatrickOBrien
> -----------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> stlroundtable-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Is this meeting still on? I had forgot that my wife and daughter were going
camping with the Girl Scouts this weekend. So I'm home entertaining my son
and won't be able to make this meeting after all. :-(

Pat

--
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech
-----------------------------------------------
"Your source for Python programming expertise."
-----------------------------------------------
Web:  http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien/
Blog: http://www.orbtech.com/blog/pobrien/
Wiki: http://www.orbtech.com/wiki/PatrickOBrien
-----------------------------------------------

Much better. ;)

Bob

Patrick K. O'Brien wrote:
> [Bob Lee]
>
>>Pat, we just sit around and BS. Python is as good a topic as any.
>>
>>Saturday, 10AM, Borders in Brentwood sound good? I'll try and
>>round up some new faces.
>
>
> Sounds good to me. I just looked at your car crash pictures, btw. Ouch! Can
> I assume that you came out in slightly better shape than the car?
>
> Pat
>
> --
> Patrick K. O'Brien
> Orbtech
> -----------------------------------------------
> "Your source for Python programming expertise."
> -----------------------------------------------
> Web:  http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien/
> Blog: http://www.orbtech.com/blog/pobrien/
> Wiki: http://www.orbtech.com/wiki/PatrickOBrien
> -----------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> stlroundtable-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[Bob Lee]
>
> Pat, we just sit around and BS. Python is as good a topic as any.
>
> Saturday, 10AM, Borders in Brentwood sound good? I'll try and
> round up some new faces.

Sounds good to me. I just looked at your car crash pictures, btw. Ouch! Can
I assume that you came out in slightly better shape than the car?

Pat

--
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech
-----------------------------------------------
"Your source for Python programming expertise."
-----------------------------------------------
Web:  http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien/
Blog: http://www.orbtech.com/blog/pobrien/
Wiki: http://www.orbtech.com/wiki/PatrickOBrien
-----------------------------------------------

Sounds good to me.
   Later,
     -Louis!


>From: Bob Lee <crazybob@...>
>Reply-To: stlroundtable@yahoogroups.com
>To: <stlroundtable@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [stlroundtable] Meeting?
>Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:04:04 -0500
>
>Pat, we just sit around and BS. Python is as good a topic as any.
>
>Saturday, 10AM, Borders in Brentwood sound good? I'll try and round up some
>new faces.
>
>Bob
>


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Pat, we just sit around and BS. Python is as good a topic as any.

Saturday, 10AM, Borders in Brentwood sound good? I'll try and round up some
new faces.

Bob

On 9/24/02 9:43 PM, "Louis K. Thomas" <louisth@...> wrote:

> Hmm. Guess I better de-lurk. :) I'm up for a meeting. I'm in St. Louis on
> Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays, so those days are usually good. I don't
> really have anything I could present, but I'd be happy to just hang out and
> chat about whatever comes up. I don't know anything about Python, but I'd be
> happy to learn.
>
> I've only been to a few meetings in the past, so I'm not sure what counts as
> a "normal meeting". I guess usually we pick a bookstore coffeeshop and go
> talk hang out and talk about stuff for a while. We used to have planned
> topics for the meeting, but I thonk we could get by without one.
>
> Later,
>   -Louis! :)
>
>
>> From: "Patrick K. O'Brien" <pobrien@...>
>> Reply-To: stlroundtable@yahoogroups.com
>> To: <stlroundtable@yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: RE: [stlroundtable] Meeting?
>> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:29:20 -0500
>>
>> I'm new to the group, so I was waiting to see who else would respond. What
>> kind of meetings have you had in the past? What kind would you like to have
>> next? Anyone else here interested in Python?
>>
>> Pat
>>
>> --
>> Patrick K. O'Brien
>> Orbtech
>> -----------------------------------------------
>> "Your source for Python programming expertise."
>> -----------------------------------------------
>> Web:  http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien/
>> Blog: http://www.orbtech.com/blog/pobrien/
>> Wiki: http://www.orbtech.com/wiki/PatrickOBrien
>> -----------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Bob Lee [mailto:crazybob@...]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 9:22 PM
>>> To: stlroundtable@yahoogroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: [stlroundtable] Meeting?
>>>
>>>
>>> Is the roundtable done for? C'mon slackers.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> stlroundtable-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>
>
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>
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> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> stlroundtable-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

Hmm. Guess I better de-lurk. :) I'm up for a meeting. I'm in St. Louis on
Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays, so those days are usually good. I don't
really have anything I could present, but I'd be happy to just hang out and
chat about whatever comes up. I don't know anything about Python, but I'd be
happy to learn.

I've only been to a few meetings in the past, so I'm not sure what counts as
a "normal meeting". I guess usually we pick a bookstore coffeeshop and go
talk hang out and talk about stuff for a while. We used to have planned
topics for the meeting, but I thonk we could get by without one.

   Later,
     -Louis! :)


>From: "Patrick K. O'Brien" <pobrien@...>
>Reply-To: stlroundtable@yahoogroups.com
>To: <stlroundtable@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [stlroundtable] Meeting?
>Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:29:20 -0500
>
>I'm new to the group, so I was waiting to see who else would respond. What
>kind of meetings have you had in the past? What kind would you like to have
>next? Anyone else here interested in Python?
>
>Pat
>
>--
>Patrick K. O'Brien
>Orbtech
>-----------------------------------------------
>"Your source for Python programming expertise."
>-----------------------------------------------
>Web:  http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien/
>Blog: http://www.orbtech.com/blog/pobrien/
>Wiki: http://www.orbtech.com/wiki/PatrickOBrien
>-----------------------------------------------
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bob Lee [mailto:crazybob@...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 9:22 PM
> > To: stlroundtable@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [stlroundtable] Meeting?
> >
> >
> > Is the roundtable done for? C'mon slackers.
> >
> > Bob
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>stlroundtable-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

I'm new to the group, so I was waiting to see who else would respond. What
kind of meetings have you had in the past? What kind would you like to have
next? Anyone else here interested in Python?

Pat

--
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech
-----------------------------------------------
"Your source for Python programming expertise."
-----------------------------------------------
Web:  http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien/
Blog: http://www.orbtech.com/blog/pobrien/
Wiki: http://www.orbtech.com/wiki/PatrickOBrien
-----------------------------------------------


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Lee [mailto:crazybob@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 9:22 PM
> To: stlroundtable@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [stlroundtable] Meeting?
>
>
> Is the roundtable done for? C'mon slackers.
>
> Bob

Is the roundtable done for? C'mon slackers.

Bob

On 9/22/02 7:53 PM, "Tim Burns" <tburns@...> wrote:

>
> I don't think I really want to know, it would only add to my cynicism.  It's
> really an interesting racket that they've put together with their latest
> release.  It's pretty much just a really garbled repackaging of the standard
> Apache/Orion/LDAP stuff with an Oracle database on the backend.
>
> The install is pretty painful and my cynical side says that they made it
> painful on purpose.  They make it just different enough though so that it
> would really save time to spend time on the phone or bring in a consultant.
> I'm thinking of half a dozen people I worked with in St. Louis who would
> directly have one or two of the skills to install it easily from scratch, but
> no one person I can think of would have every skill.  You have to have
> knowledge of the apache mod stuff to do the LDAP plug in (I don't have that).
> If you don't have the LDAP plug-in, nothing else will work -- nice little
> easter egg there.  Nevermind YAGNI and that most people who will use these
> probably have their own table of users that they will use for the application
> and completely ignore the LDAP, but that's another rant...  The other thing is
> the app server, I know it well because Orion was my development server for
> about a year, but DBAs have a tough time with Orion, so even a really good DBA
> will probably need some help getting Orion configured.  Oracle the database
> sort of speaks for itself - easy to install dummy style - takes a good DBA to
> get in good form (I can do dummy Oracle but out of my league good Oracle).
>
> From the consulting/marketing perspective its a really nice install, because
> it isn't so terrible that will alienate anybody, but it isn't complete and
> easy enough so that you won't at least consider giving Oracle a call to ask
> for a consultant...especially if you work for a big company and have more
> money than time.
>
> Tim
>
> Bob Lee <crazybob@...> wrote:
> Are the development tools and the technical rep. worth whatever Oracle charges
> over Orion's $1500/server (note server as opposed to CPU)? ;) What does Oracle
> charge anyway?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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I don't think I really want to know, it would only add to my cynicism.  It's
really an interesting racket that they've put together with their latest
release.  It's pretty much just a really garbled repackaging of the standard
Apache/Orion/LDAP stuff with an Oracle database on the backend.

The install is pretty painful and my cynical side says that they made it painful
on purpose.  They make it just different enough though so that it would really
save time to spend time on the phone or bring in a consultant.  I'm thinking of
half a dozen people I worked with in St. Louis who would directly have one or
two of the skills to install it easily from scratch, but no one person I can
think of would have every skill.  You have to have knowledge of the apache mod
stuff to do the LDAP plug in (I don't have that).  If you don't have the LDAP
plug-in, nothing else will work -- nice little easter egg there.  Nevermind
YAGNI and that most people who will use these probably have their own table of
users that they will use for the application and completely ignore the LDAP, but
that's another rant...  The other thing is the app server, I know it well
because Orion was my development server for about a year, but DBAs have a tough
time with Orion, so even a really good DBA will probably need some help getting
Orion configured.  Oracle the database sort of speaks for itself - easy to
install dummy style - takes a good DBA to get in good form (I can do dummy
Oracle but out of my league good Oracle).

From the consulting/marketing perspective its a really nice install, because it
isn't so terrible that will alienate anybody, but it isn't complete and easy
enough so that you won't at least consider giving Oracle a call to ask for a
consultant...especially if you work for a big company and have more money than
time.

Tim

   Bob Lee <crazybob@...> wrote:
Are the development tools and the technical rep. worth whatever Oracle charges
over Orion's $1500/server (note server as opposed to CPU)? ;) What does Oracle
charge anyway?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tim,

It never ceases to amaze me how useless vendor reps. can be. He had it totally
backwards. It was originally Oracle's own implementation and they completely
replaced it with Orion about a year or so ago. I could be mistaken, but I don't
think they've done much more than wrapping it and renaming the jar. Like you
said, they didn't even bother to rename the jar at first.

Are the development tools and the technical rep. worth whatever Oracle charges
over Orion's $1500/server (note server as opposed to CPU)? ;) What does Oracle
charge anyway?

I'm working at OCI now. I'm out at A. G. Edwards with Mark Volkmann and Pat
Niemeyer on the Enterprise Services team. Basically we're just mapping their
relational database to the mother load of data transfer objects which will be
used in all of the other AGE applications.

I think my design is actually pretty cool. They originally started out with a
Custom Data Transfer Object pattern (EJB Design Patterns) where they would
create variations on the object maps to service different clients' needs. For
example, Type A references collections of type B and C. Client 1 primarily
accesses A and B, client 2, A and C. They would create two variations on type A,
one with accessors for the B collection and the other with accessors for the
type C collection. This is a common practice. In rare situations where Client 1
needed to access collection C, the client would have to take the ID from A and
query for the C collection separately. The incentive for doing it this way is
that you don't transfer the entire object map which could be very inefficient or
even impossible (in cases where fulfilling every possible relationship would
return the entire database, exploding the heap in the process ;)).

The problems with this typical approach is that one, the number of classes and
services you must implement grows exponentially. Two, it's very difficult to
automate the generation of the code. Three, should the client's needs change,
it's very difficult to modify the implementation and deploy the changes. Four,
it's very difficult to reuse code between the clients. Five, in cases where you
do reuse code, you end up with fragile dependencies. Six, the interface is not
very consistent; sometimes the client calls a getter, sometimes they get the
objects via another service. etc.

My approach is to refactor the code that builds the relationships on the server
side, and the code that manually completes the relationships on the client side,
into the bean implementations themselves. EJB's location transparency makes this
possible. It doesn't matter whether the bean fulfills the relationship on the
client or server side.

Basically what you end up with is lazy-loading getters. When the client calls
the get method, the bean checks to see if it already has the data. If it
doesn't, it queries for the data through the data access service. If you want to
cache up data on the server side (this is equivalent to implementing the
mappings in the first place), all you have to do is invoke the methods before
you return the object to the client. The data will get cached up and sent along
with the response. You can even configure this declaratively using reflection.

You end up with identical performance to the original approach, however you only
have a single implementation class for each bean type. If the client only
accesses collection C 5% of the time, don't preload the data on the server side.
The getter for collection C will automatically go back to the server if it needs
to. You can tweak performance post-deployment without any modifications to the
code or client.

EJB also makes it really easy because the client doesn't have to look up the
data access service. You can simply store the data access service's remote stub
in the bean before you send it back. Given XML descriptions of the beans'
fields, their relational mappings, and their relationships, it is very easy to
autogenerate this code.

It looks like it's going to work. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I'm also
coauthoring a book with Bruce Tate. It's called "Bitter EJB" and is the sequel
to his best seller "Bitter Java". I'm using Custom DTO's as an AntiPatterns and
the pattern I just laid out as the refactored solution.

There are some potential security issues if the client can just send arbitrary
queries. I think keeping the queries on the server side and having the client
pass in a query ID and the parameters should be sufficient. This will allow me
to limit access to given queries based on user roles. This puts me on par
security-wise with the rest of the EJB architecture and it will be easy to
implement and configure declaratively. I'm not too worried about it though
because this is for internal use behind other AGE applications.

Bob
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Tim Burns
   To: stlroundtable@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 11:38 AM
   Subject: Re: [stlroundtable] Meeting?



   Hi Bob!
   Well I flew in but no one was there. :(  Glad to hear from you.
   So what have people been up to?
   I'm right now working on a Struts app and getting ready to port a tomcat
version to Oracle's app server.  I spent a good part of my week this week
fighting with the very painful install.  Anyways, the app server is reall Orion,
which I think is really funny.  I asked the Oracle rep about this and he said it
was originally Orion, but they replaced it a long time ago.  This was the guy
that, "worked on the project and knew everything about the server."  I looked at
the jars for the server, and all they did was change the name from orion.jar to
oc4j.jar.   Oh well, for the Oracle "consultant".
   All that matters though is that it works, and Orion is a great app server. 
Oracle did put some nice web deployment wrappers around it though.
   I've been working a  little perl script to synchronize files between a very
slow vpn link and my home computer.  I'll post it when I get a few more bells
and whistles on it.
   Tim
     Bob Lee <crazybob@...> wrote: Who's up for a meeting for old time's
sake? It's getting to be about
   that time of year. I know it's short notice, but I can go for tomorrow
   if anyone's interested, or next Sat., or both. Tim, Louis, is that
   enough notice for you to fly in? ;)

   It's been a while; where are you all at, what are you up to? Will, you
   outta school yet?

   Bob



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   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Bob!
Well I flew in but no one was there. :(  Glad to hear from you.
So what have people been up to?
I'm right now working on a Struts app and getting ready to port a tomcat version
to Oracle's app server.  I spent a good part of my week this week fighting with
the very painful install.  Anyways, the app server is reall Orion, which I think
is really funny.  I asked the Oracle rep about this and he said it was
originally Orion, but they replaced it a long time ago.  This was the guy that,
"worked on the project and knew everything about the server."  I looked at the
jars for the server, and all they did was change the name from orion.jar to
oc4j.jar.   Oh well, for the Oracle "consultant".
All that matters though is that it works, and Orion is a great app server. 
Oracle did put some nice web deployment wrappers around it though.
I've been working a  little perl script to synchronize files between a very slow
vpn link and my home computer.  I'll post it when I get a few more bells and
whistles on it.
Tim
   Bob Lee <crazybob@...> wrote: Who's up for a meeting for old time's
sake? It's getting to be about
that time of year. I know it's short notice, but I can go for tomorrow
if anyone's interested, or next Sat., or both. Tim, Louis, is that
enough notice for you to fly in? ;)

It's been a while; where are you all at, what are you up to? Will, you
outta school yet?

Bob



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
stlroundtable-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Who's up for a meeting for old time's sake? It's getting to be about
that time of year. I know it's short notice, but I can go for tomorrow
if anyone's interested, or next Sat., or both. Tim, Louis, is that
enough notice for you to fly in? ;)

It's been a while; where are you all at, what are you up to? Will, you
outta school yet?

Bob

For those of you who haven't gotten this email yet, I highly recommend
going to listen to Scott Ambler speak. He has a lot of very interesting
things to say, especially if you are coming from a company with a very
heavy, documentation-based development process.

I'm going, and I'm hoping to see many of you there as well.

bab

--
Brian Button            bbutton@...
Senior Consultant       http://www.objectmentor.com
Object Mentor, Inc.     St. Louis, MO

Extreme Programming in St. Louis - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/xpstl


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You are cordially invited to attend a very special event featuring a
presentation on JBoss by Marc Fleury, creator of JBoss and President &
Founder of the JBoss Group, LLC.

At A Glance:
What: JBoss App Server Presentation
When: September 3, 2002 @ 6:00pm
Where: Maryville Technologies  (directions:
http://www.maryville.com/au-locations-st-louis.asp)
RSVP: By August 20, 2002 jboss-rsvp@...

From the JBoss web site, "JBoss is an Open Source, standards-compliant,
application server implemented in 100% Pure Java and distributed for
free. With 150,000+ downloads per month, JBoss is THE most downloaded
web-app server in the world based on the J2EE specification."

On Tuesday, September 3rd, the Gateway JUG is flying Marc in from
Atlanta to present his unique perspective on the role of open source
software, the features and capabilities of JBoss 3.0, and perhaps some
insights on future directions of JBoss.  Even if your company has
standardized on another J2EE application server, you and your company
will benefit from seeing what JBoss offers as an open source
alternative.

As always, the monthly meetings of the Gateway JUG are free and open to
the public. However, because seating is limited, RSVPs are required.
Please send your RSVP to jboss-rsvp@... by 20 August 2002 so
we can finalize arrangements.

In your RSVP, please include the following information:

- Company Name
- Number of Attendees

For each attendee, please provide the following contact information so
we can reach him/her with updates and last-minute change notices. (List
the primary contact first.)

- Contact Name
- E-Mail Address
- Phone Number

To learn more about this event, please review the Acrobat 5.0 PDF JBoss
announcement at http://www.gatewayjug.org/files/JBossAnnouncement.pdf
and watch our site at http://www.gatewayjug.org for any updates. If
you'd like to learn more about JBoss before our event, please visit the
JBoss Group's web site at http://www.jboss.org/

Feel free to pass this along to co-workers, managers and developers who
might be interested in the presentation.

Thank you for your interest and support.

Jack Frosch
Founder & President, Gateway JUG

The Gateway JUG is a Missouri nonprofit corporation chartered to promote
the advancement of the Java programming language through education,
research, social activities, and community outreach. Our monthly
meetings are always free and open to the public, brought to you by
members and sponsors of the Gateway JUG.

It's been fun meeting with you all, especially before Library Ltd closed (no
place else has the same cozy atmosphere).  However, my wife and I decided to
move back to the east coast.  I've found a permanent position at Ahold
Information Services in Greenville, SC.  I started last Monday.  I'm back in
St. Louis from now until Wednesday night, teaching my last class at CAIT.

Greenville seems like a great town, near the beginning of its growth curve.
I'm an hour from the mountains and 3 1/2 hours from the beach.  Greenville
County has more engineers per capita than any other county in the US!

If any of you are looking for a house, mine goes on the market this week.
It's a 3 bedroom (+bonus room), 3 bath (plus bath & shower in basement),
all-brick house with hardwood floors on main level.  It's in a wonderful
quiet neighborhood across the street from UMSL.   Please visit
http://www.hofflergroup.com/house/ for pictures.

John Hoffler
President, The Hoffler Group, Inc.
jhoffler@...
http://www.hofflergroup.com
President, BDPA-St. Louis
president@...
http://www.bdpa-stl.org
mobile: 314-239-2530