On Saturday, July 27, 2002, 1:59:11 PM, Jim wrote:

JL> "Chris Lilley" <chris@...>
>> On Saturday, July 27, 2002, 1:36:00 AM, Jim wrote:
>> JL> Or was that also removed form I18N issues - I'd be surprised
>> JL> as tabindex survived HTML scrutiny without the same issue.
>>
>> How would tabindex be related to text input events?

JL> The ability to receive text input events, requires the ability for the
JL> relevant element to receive keyboard focus. This is done via the "tab"
JL> key in all window managers, access technologies and applications I can
JL> think of.

And is independent of whether the *user* is also allowecd to get
access to events produced by the tab key, or set an event listener
that cancels them, etc.


JL> So for SVG to be accessible you need to be able to give keyboard focus to
JL> any element which can receive a text input event without using the mouse -
JL> I can't imagine anyone would recommend any method other than tab.

None of which requires anything special from SVG. The implementation
can feel free to provide this just as it can provide a bookmark
facility, or close the program when you click on the little cross, or
whatever.

>> JL> Which at least means we can approach some practical accessibility
JL> even if
>> JL> we have no true accessibility.
>>
>> No, it means you can approach some locking of content to one
>> particular implementation, which is not a great idea.

JL> Absolutely, but then we can either say "screw you, use the mouse" (which
JL> appears to be your position with SVG 1.0 and 1.1)

Please don't put words in my mouth, I don't know where they have been.

JL> or we can attempt to do
JL> something for our users. Like wcag 1.0 says lots of "until user agents
JL> support ... do ..." - with SVG we have to have "until the SVG
JL> recommendation supports ... do ..."

Or "until user agents do "....


>> I agree Daves concept of "tell what you remember' is good, but it
>> seems to rely on particular structuring that seems to be a limitation.

JL> Structuring how? images are about information, I tend to believe the RNIB
JL> to have a fair amount of experience in describing the information in
JL> images for non-visual
JL> users.

You persist in misinterpreting what I said, conveniently ignoring the
word "good" in the sentence above, and adding slants that are not
there. Its rather tiresome.

>> JL> so this issue you cite is a strawman that those following even the
>> JL> current WCAG guidelines would never see.
>>
>> Really. On the contrary, I have seen some vague handwaving advice
>> about it and sought to correct it to make sure that the guidelines are
>> implementable.

JL> Okay, you've addressed colour blindness, can you now address my genuine
JL> concerns wrt to the accessibility of interactive SVG?

>> JL> Have you had any thoughts about how I can make my jigsaw accessible
JL> in
>> JL> SVG?
>>
>> Your jigsaw web server?

JL> No... (do you read replies to your messages?),

Do you? Sigh. Its true I might miss some when skipping past your
assorted insults looking for actual facts, but I try not to.

JL> you recently suggested we
JL> look at http://jibbering.com/pics/ an inaccessible page to see if SVG can
JL> make it accessible. I demonstrated how I believe HTML alone could make it
JL> accessible with http://jibbering.com/pics/access.1 and can't think of
JL> anything SVG would add (in an accessibility sense.)

How about doing the rather simple interactivity in a declarative
manner, without needing scripting?

JL> I also suggested you
JL> might like to consider how I could make some SVG accessible
JL> http://jibbering.com/2002/4/jigsaw.svg - I don't believe it's possible

Well, that page is an svg page in the same way that an html page with
a single image element is HTM<L! Its one big script tag, and nothing
else. I realise that you come from a scripting background, but this is
a classic worst case in either svg or html (or anything else).

You could of course rewrite it to use animation, or to provide static
pieces (that can be described) that are animated by script, or that
are animated by another namespace (liek Antoine's draggable namespace,
for example) all of which would give an accessibility helper app a lot
more to work with than your single, opaque script blob.

JL> If you believe SVG does contain the ability to be accessible, please
JL> demonstrate some techniques, I have experience of javascript, RDF, SVG,
JL> and accessibility issues - and I can't think of a single way either as SVG
JL> is currently implemented or in a theoretical sense to the spec.

JL> The jigsaw could be made theoretically accessible if implemented in flash
JL> MX *, so I'm very confident that there's nothing preventing the idea from
JL> being accessible. It's simply that SVG does not contain the necessary
JL> functionality.

JL> Jim.

JL> * only theoretically as there's the problem of lack of accessible
JL> implementations.

Bingo. Back where we started.




--
Chris mailto:chris@...