> Doug Schepers wrote:
>
>
> >>As discussed before, the risk for non-interoperable and non-conforming
> >>full implementations is very low with SVG.

Can someone clarify why is that a low risk?

> > Very true... one of many Good Things about SVG. But the devil's in the
> > details: ASV1-3, Batik, and Mozilla (a bit) all support
> different feature sets of SVG.

To be more accurate, each relaase of Batik and ASV have become increasingly
more conformant to the same implementation and several mobile vendors are
working toward SVG Mobile.


> >>Again, I also hope that Adobe continues to support SVG and the ASV.
> >>
> > As do I. Or, if not, at least releases the source. <grin/>
>
>
> Yes. Absolutely. It's free (0$), so why not make it free
> (copyleft, eg GPL)?

Tobi,

What are you referring to as free?

Michael

--- In svg-developers@y..., "Richard Bennett" <richard.bennett@s...>
wrote:
> Does anyone know what to do too enable Batik 1.5beta3 to run on
win2k?

I dropped back from JDK 1.4 to 1.3.1 in order to get Batik 1.5b3 to
work.
--
Pete Forman                -./\.-  Disclaimer: This post is originated
WesternGeco                  -./\.-   by myself and does not represent
pete.forman@...    -./\.-   opinion of Schlumberger, Baker
http://petef.port5.com           -./\.-   Hughes or their divisions.

Michael Bierman wrote:


>>>>As discussed before, the risk for non-interoperable and non-conforming
>>>>full implementations is very low with SVG.
>>>>
> Can someone clarify why is that a low risk?


It has been discussed on this list.

Please read
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/17505
and
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/17508


> To be more accurate, each relaase of Batik and ASV have become increasingly
> more conformant to the same implementation


you mean "specification"?


>>Yes. Absolutely. It's free (0$), so why not make it free
>>(copyleft, eg GPL)?
>>
>
> Tobi,
>
> What are you referring to as free?


I explained it above. If that's not enough, you might have to question
in more detail; I can't see what you don't understand.

Free Software gives the users the freedom to run, copy, distribute,
study, change and improve the software. If a company goes out of
business, or stops supporting a sofware application, users, communities
of users, companies, or anyone else can continue to work on it. This
also requires that the source code is shipped with the app, or is available.

A FS license is the only way to guarantee that the app will always be
available, and that it will always be possible to develop it further.

Here are some pointers:
GNU
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/copyleft.html
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html
Others
http://www.opensource.org/licenses/
http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.html
http://www.apache.org/licenses/

Tobi


--
http://www.pinkjuice.com/

Linking geometric informations and attribute data is the most important
tool of GIS. So SVG outputs should also support this feature.
We have try to implement this in our Extension for ArcView a GIS from
ESRI (MapViewSVG). Have a look on our Web site
http://www.blattform.de/mapview/eng/examples/index.html to see a few
examples.

Armin


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Jim Ley [mailto:jim@...]
Gesendet: Samstag, 29. Juni 2002 12:44
An: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com; svgmapping@...
Betreff: Re: [svg-developers] Free? GIS + SVG


"Lance Dyas" <lancelot@...>
> I'm actually surprised, the boss is considering putting the print2svg
> capability in the TNTlite product an enticement to familiarize people
> with the main products of course. (TNTlite is generally export
> disabled so this would be in my opinion a relatively major decision)

One thing I've noticed from the SVG output of GIS systems (never looked
personally at the systems, just in examples posted to the list and
elsewhere.) is that the SVG is a purely visual format with no semantic
information in it - this is a shame as SVG has mechanisms for adding
semantics and it would be nice if the systems could include it.  -
Although as I understand GIS already has established interchange formats
there may only be sense in an output format.

I like the idea of being able to identify what the various bits of the
SVG are from within the SVG, for example at a simplistic level in a map
of the world, knowing which path was which country would be very useful.
This as Lance suggests makes it a very rich export format which isn't
normally a "free" product.

So do any of the GIS people know of any SVG tools which include semantic
information, or have any ideas in this direction?

Jim.

(I hope the svgmapping@... list are happy with the continued
cross-post - I do not subscribe...)



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--- In svg-developers@y..., Tobias Reif <tobiasreif@p...> wrote:
> Michael Bierman wrote:
>
>
> >>>>As discussed before, the risk for non-interoperable and non-
conforming
> >>>>full implementations is very low with SVG.
> >>>>
> > Can someone clarify why is that a low risk?
>
>
> It has been discussed on this list.
>
> Please read
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/17505
> and
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/17508

Good points, of course SVG does inherently have many things going for
it.  But I still think there *is* risk at this point as I have
commented on lately.  I'm still hopeful, but concerned.

> > To be more accurate, each relaase of Batik and ASV have become
increasingly
> > more conformant to the same implementation
>
> you mean "specification"?

Yes, that's correct. Sorry, I was distracted.

> >>Yes. Absolutely. It's free (0$), so why not make it free
> >>(copyleft, eg GPL)?
> >>
> >
> > Tobi,
> >
> > What are you referring to as free?
>
>
> I explained it above. If that's not enough, you might have to
question
> in more detail; I can't see what you don't understand.
>
> Free Software gives the users the freedom to run, copy, distribute,
> study, change and improve the software. If a company goes out of
> business, or stops supporting a sofware application, users,
communities
> of users, companies, or anyone else can continue to work on it.
This
> also requires that the source code is shipped with the app, or is
available.
>
> A FS license is the only way to guarantee that the app will always
be
> available, and that it will always be possible to develop it
further.

Tobi,

I am well aware of Free software and copyleft perspectives. As I have
explained in the past, ASV is built upon the much of the same IP that
powers Adobe's key products:  Acrobat, Photoshop, Illustrator, etc.
I'm sure you can understand the difficulty here.  I am certain that
Adobe will never license this code under GNU.  Nor do I see why they
should, honestly.

I don't want to start an OT discussion of Open Source religion, but
Adobe invested heavily in creating this intellectual property--ASV.
Nothing about that effort was free, with the possible exception of
the SVG Recommendation.  But even there, Adobe had staff working on
that.  SVG is an amazing opportunity.  But for it to be the success
we all hope for, there must be a positive feedback loop where
Companies continue to support SVG, which drives more customers to
want to buy SVG solutions, which allows more product investment and
research.

Michael

--- In svg-developers@y..., Tobias Reif <tobiasreif@p...> wrote:
> Michael Bierman wrote:
>
>
> >>>>As discussed before, the risk for non-interoperable and non-
conforming
> >>>>full implementations is very low with SVG.
> >>>>
> > Can someone clarify why is that a low risk?
>
>
> It has been discussed on this list.
>
> Please read
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/17505
> and
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/17508
>
>
> > To be more accurate, each relaase of Batik and ASV have become
increasingly
> > more conformant to the same implementation
>
>
> you mean "specification"?
>
>
> >>Yes. Absolutely. It's free (0$), so why not make it free
> >>(copyleft, eg GPL)?
> >>
> >
> > Tobi,
> >
> > What are you referring to as free?
>
>
> I explained it above. If that's not enough, you might have to
question
> in more detail; I can't see what you don't understand.
>
> Free Software gives the users the freedom to run, copy, distribute,
> study, change and improve the software. If a company goes out of
> business, or stops supporting a sofware application, users,
communities
> of users, companies, or anyone else can continue to work on it.
This
> also requires that the source code is shipped with the app, or is
available.
>
> A FS license is the only way to guarantee that the app will always
be
> available, and that it will always be possible to develop it
further.
>
> Here are some pointers:
> GNU
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html
> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html
> http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/copyleft.html
> http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html
> Others
> http://www.opensource.org/licenses/
> http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.html
> http://www.apache.org/licenses/
>
> Tobi
>
>
> --
> http://www.pinkjuice.com/

mbier wrote:


> Good points, of course SVG does inherently have many things going for
> it.  But I still think there *is* risk at this point as I have
> commented on lately.


A very low and controllable one. Interoperability is something to work
on (submitting bug reports etc), not something to spread FUD about (you
didn't but there's a risk).


> I am well aware of Free software and copyleft perspectives. As I have
> explained in the past, ASV is built upon the much of the same IP that
> powers Adobe's key products:  Acrobat, Photoshop, Illustrator, etc.
> I'm sure you can understand the difficulty here.  I am certain that
> Adobe will never license this code under GNU.


I also doubt it.

> Nor do I see why they
> should, honestly.


Many people on this list are concerened about Adobe discontinuing
support for the ASV, and they depend on it.

So I wrote
"Free Software gives the users the freedom to run, copy, distribute,
study, change and improve the software. If a company goes out of
business, or stops supporting a sofware application, users, communities
of users, companies, or anyone else can continue to work on it. This
also requires that the source code is shipped with the app, or is available.

A FS license is the only way to guarantee that the app will always be
available, and that it will always be possible to develop it further."


> I don't want to start an OT discussion of Open Source religion


We are discussing strategies, licenses, and user's needs, not religion.
I don't throw you into the "Marketing Religion" corner, do I?


> Nothing about that effort was free, with the possible exception of
> the SVG Recommendation.  But even there, Adobe had staff working on
> that.  SVG is an amazing opportunity.


The ASV is being given away for zero $s. I can't see many disadvantages
of making in GPLd or otherwise copylefted.

> But for it to be the success
> we all hope for, there must be a positive feedback loop where
> Companies continue to support SVG, which drives more customers to
> want to buy SVG solutions, which allows more product investment and
> research.


We're talking about the ASV, which does not cost money. I did not talk
about licensing Illustrator under the GPL (which would be nice ;)
nonetheless).

Tobi

--
http://www.pinkjuice.com/

Hi
<----- Original Message -----
<From: "pete_forman" <pete.forman@...>
<I dropped back from JDK 1.4 to 1.3.1 in order to get Batik 1.5b3 to
<work.
That was it! - I downgraded the JDK, and it works fine now.

Thanks a lot Pete, and thanks for the ideas Tobi.
Richard.

Richard Bennett wrote:


> <I dropped back from JDK 1.4 to 1.3.1 in order to get Batik 1.5b3 to
> <work.
> That was it! - I downgraded the JDK, and it works fine now.


If this isn't in the readme, then please submit your report at
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/


Tobi


--
http://www.pinkjuice.com/

--- In svg-developers@y..., Chris Lilley <chris@w...> wrote:
> <svg width="5in" height="3.5in" viewBox="0 0 5000 3500">
>  <rect fill="black" x="1000" y="500" width="3000" height="2500"/>
> </svg>

This is what I'm having the problem with.

<svg width="5in" height="3.5in" viewBox="0 0 5000 3500">
   <rect fill="black" x="1in" y="0.5in" width="3in" height="2.5in"/>
</svg>

Not to worry, if I stick to user space coordinates then all is
rendered okay.
--
Pete Forman                -./\.-  Disclaimer: This post is originated
WesternGeco                  -./\.-   by myself and does not represent
pete.forman@...    -./\.-   opinion of Schlumberger, Baker
http://petef.port5.com           -./\.-   Hughes or their divisions.

On Sunday, June 30, 2002, 4:26:39 PM, cdubnbug wrote:

c> --- In svg-developers@y..., Chris Lilley <chris@w...> wrote:
>> Or, make all the stars use elements pointing to a single symbol.
>> They you only have one r to adjust.

c> I've already been down that road, and found that the strokes on my
c> circles scaled along with the radius when I performed a
c> transform="scale()" on the <use>. Unfortunately, not workable for me.

Ah. Okay.

c> I needed a transform that worked only on the "r" attribute of the
c> <circle>, and it didn't look like there was such a thing.

Correct.

c> Well, if you can show me how to do a transform="scale()" on a <use>
c> element that points to a <circle> without scaling that stroke width,
c> I'll investigate it again.

Since we dropped the ability to do things like stroke-width="2px" and
have it be 2px regardless of scaling, you can't do that sort of thing
in SVG 1.0. Unfortunately.

So yes, you will have to tree walk and adjust all the radii
individually.

--
  Chris                            mailto:chris@...

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the svg-developers
group.

   File        : /AI2AGLExampleScreenshots.zip
   Uploaded by : ian_tindale <ian_tindale@...>
   Description : Adobe Illustratror and GoLive screenshots editing SVG doc

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/files/AI2AGLExampleScreenshots.zip

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

ian_tindale <ian_tindale@...>

>   File        : /AI2AGLExampleScreenshots.zip
>   Uploaded by : ian_tindale <ian_tindale@...>
>   Description : Adobe Illustratror and GoLive screenshots editing SVG doc


Thanks! Looking good :)

Tobi


--
http://www.pinkjuice.com/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tobias Reif [mailto:tobiasreif@...]
> Sent: 29 June 2002 10:32
> To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Does anyone know a good SVG editor?
>
> Ian,
>
>  > These days I'm using the combination of Adobe Illustrator 10 and Adobe
>  > GoLive 6. GoLive has a particularly useful XML node editor for SVG,
>  > created in Illustrator.
>
> Sounds great. Perhaps you could post some screenshots?
>

Have done so now. They're in the Yahoo group files area, called
AI2AGLExampleScreenshots.zip - it's a zip file with 12 PNG screenshots from it
(although the filter effect I show in the Illustrator half isn't present in the
file I had in GoLive - I changed my mind & chose to show just the gradient
instead).

--
Ian Tindale

Anyone aware of any active work in this area?  The stuff on SourceForge.net
looks like it hasn't really started yet.  Batik port?  Any experimental
stuff?  Animations aren't necessary for what we need.  Only "the basics".

TIA for any suggestions.
Rick Bullotta
CTO
Lighthammer Software (www.lighthammer.com)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In svg-developers@y..., "Rick Bullotta" <Rick.Bullotta@l...>
wrote:
> Anyone aware of any active work in this area?  The stuff on
SourceForge.net
> looks like it hasn't really started yet.  Batik port?  Any
experimental
> stuff?  Animations aren't necessary for what we need.  Only "the
basics".

Protocol 7 is creating a C#-based SVG viewer:

http://www.protocol7.com/svg.net/default.asp

--Eric
Perceive Designs
http://www.perceive.net/
Got Geek? http://www.cafepress.com/got_geek/

Hi

We are working such a implementation. Experimental is probably the best
description at the moment :-)

I just (last week) uploaded the currently implemented SVG DOM classes to the
Sharp Vector Graphics project on sourceforge
(http://sourceforge.net/projects/svgdomcsharp/).

There you will also find a GDI+ renderer for the currently supported subset.
Later tonight I hope to upload some new stuff and also a lot of rewritten
classes.

So far it passed these tests:
http://www.protocol7.com/svg.net/tests.asp

The CVS version I'm uploading tonight also has very basic text support (e.g no
text on paths, no char-by-char positions, no char rotations).

If that's enough for you, you are very welcome to download and play with it and
of course to contribute to the code base! We are currently a bit short on active
developers :-)

/niklas

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Rick Bullotta
   To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 5:42 PM
   Subject: [svg-developers] C# or .NET-based SVG Rendering Engine


   Anyone aware of any active work in this area?  The stuff on SourceForge.net
   looks like it hasn't really started yet.  Batik port?  Any experimental
   stuff?  Animations aren't necessary for what we need.  Only "the basics".

   TIA for any suggestions.
   Rick Bullotta
   CTO
   Lighthammer Software (www.lighthammer.com)





   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
               ADVERTISEMENT



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> "The effect of a 'use'  element is as if the contents of the
> referenced element were deeply cloned into a separate non-exposed DOM
> tree which had the 'use'  element as its parent and all of the 'use'
> element's ancestors as its higher-level ancestors. Because the cloned
> DOM tree is non-exposed, the SVG Document Object Model (DOM) only
> contains the 'use'  element and its attributes. The SVG DOM does not
> show the referenced element's contents as children of 'use' element."


Yes, it is not exposed to the regular XML DOM tree, but I can not really agree
with the spec here and say that it is not exposed in the SVG DOM as it very
clearly is.

I think that exposing it to the regular XML DOM would be wrong since the nodes
doesn't exist.

> The interface you mention looks like a way around it (that I wasn't
> aware of), but I'm mainly interested in ways to customize 'use'
> instances without resorting to scripts.  And besides, ASV doesn't
> support SVGElementInstance, so that severely limits its usefulness.

Well, if you don't want to use scripting then it doesn't much matter if it's
exposed or not, then you got to wait until SVG 1.2/2.0 as Jon wrote :-)

/niklas


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Tobias Reif" <tobiasreif@...>
> Doug Schepers wrote:
>
> > consistant
> > implementation to code to (I like the context menu extension a lot!),
rather
> > than relying on differing partial native implementation in different
> > browsers, as has happened with CSS.
>
>
> As discussed before, the risk for non-interoperable and non-conforming
> full implementations is very low with SVG.
>
> There's a very concise spec, a test suite and -reports, and reference
> implementations.

Do you have a URL, for this reference implementation, it would be great
to see - why are we using these partial implementations when there's a
complete one out there!

>All that is built on the XML concepts of
> well-formedness and validity.

Yet conforming viewers are required to render non well-formed documents
(well they're required to render documents before they can know they are
well formed, what happens when they discover they're not doesn't seem to
be covered.)

I think its clear that there's every bit as much a risk of having a
non-interopable and non-conforming viewers with SVG as any other similar
technology what is constraining it at the moment is not the ease of SVG
development (what's so much harder about XHTML the spec is smaller yet
you could hardly call that a success in this respect.)  The problems that
lead to non-standard support creaping into implementations are bugwards
supporting features (where a dominant platform implements something
wrongly so authors author to the bug not the spec - a number of W3 specs
are happy to publish erratas on this though.) or from supporting features
before they are a standard and ending up incorrectly implemented to the
standard.  SVG is so far avoiding these which is great, but I think it's
luck rather than anything else. (the lack of competition in viewers
actually helps here.)

Jim.

Thanks!  I don't see any files in the archive.  Is the only way to get the
source to download it (piece by piece!) from CVS?

Rick Bullotta
CTO
Lighthammer Software (www.lighthammer.com)


   -----Original Message-----
   From: Niklas Gustavsson [mailto:niklas@...]
   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:53 AM
   To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [svg-developers] C# or .NET-based SVG Rendering Engine


   Hi

   We are working such a implementation. Experimental is probably the best
description at the moment :-)

   I just (last week) uploaded the currently implemented SVG DOM classes to
the Sharp Vector Graphics project on sourceforge
(http://sourceforge.net/projects/svgdomcsharp/).

   There you will also find a GDI+ renderer for the currently supported
subset. Later tonight I hope to upload some new stuff and also a lot of
rewritten classes.

   So far it passed these tests:
   http://www.protocol7.com/svg.net/tests.asp

   The CVS version I'm uploading tonight also has very basic text support
(e.g no text on paths, no char-by-char positions, no char rotations).

   If that's enough for you, you are very welcome to download and play with
it and of course to contribute to the code base! We are currently a bit
short on active developers :-)

   /niklas

     ----- Original Message -----
     From: Rick Bullotta
     To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 5:42 PM
     Subject: [svg-developers] C# or .NET-based SVG Rendering Engine


     Anyone aware of any active work in this area?  The stuff on
SourceForge.net
     looks like it hasn't really started yet.  Batik port?  Any experimental
     stuff?  Animations aren't necessary for what we need.  Only "the
basics".

     TIA for any suggestions.
     Rick Bullotta
     CTO
     Lighthammer Software (www.lighthammer.com)





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jim Ley wrote:


> Do you have a URL, for this reference implementation, it would be great
> to see - why are we using these partial implementations when there's a
> complete one out there!


You are deliberately misunderstanding me. I won't further engage in an
ironic thread like this. I referenced a post which says:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/17505
"There exist exquisite implementations which, inside the subset they
support, can mostly serve as reference: Batik, ASV."


> I think its clear that there's every bit as much a risk of having a
> non-interopable and non-conforming viewers with SVG as any other similar
> technology


False.

Did you read the posts I referenced?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/17508
etc.

> The problems that
> lead to non-standard support creaping into implementations are bugwards
> supporting features (where a dominant platform implements something
> wrongly


test-suite

> or from supporting features
> before they are a standard and ending up incorrectly implemented to the
> standard.


test-suite, and developers who are fed up with browser hell, thus won't
accept this.

> SVG is so far avoiding these which is great, but I think it's
> luck rather than anything else.


Very untrue. How could it be luck if there are technical reasons?
HTML was *very* different than SVG; not just the standard, but the
specification and implementation process. The implementation process was
incorporated in W3C's SVG strategy.
I won't repeat all that's been said.

> (the lack of competition in viewers
> actually helps here.)


Very untrue. There are way more than five viewers.

I repeat that yes, interoperability is a challenge that's to be met, and
an issue that we should care about (submitting bugreports and test cases
is extremely important for us as a community), but there is not reason
to spread FUD based on the history of HTML. You can only do so if you
ignore the facts.

If we would have only one single closed source viewer by a single
company, nothing would be solved. Currently, this becomes clear to many.

Tobi

--
http://www.pinkjuice.com/

Hi,

Does anyone know of anything that can be used to convert maps in the
following vector formats to svg:

1. MapInfo Tab format
2. ESRI Shapefile format

Peter

"Tobias Reif" <tobiasreif@...>

> Jim Ley wrote:
>
> > Do you have a URL, for this reference implementation, it would be
great
> > to see - why are we using these partial implementations when there's
a
> > complete one out there!
>
>
> You are deliberately misunderstanding me.

I was indeed, your statement was simply incorrect, there is no reference
implementation, you complain (rightly) about mis-information then you
give it.

> I won't further engage in an
> ironic thread like this. I referenced a post which says:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/17505
> "There exist exquisite implementations which, inside the subset they
> support, can mostly serve as reference: Batik, ASV."

2? Are there not 2 implementations of every part of the spec (meaning
that at least 3 implementations need to exist unlee the 2 are complete)
You cannot have a reference implementation made up of parts of other
implementations, that makes the whole point of a reference implementation
nonsensical.

Your statement there rightly goes a long way short of calling it a
reference implementation.

> Did you read the posts I referenced?

Yes, I don't think they address my concerns, they do address some
concerns of how to create a standard document, but they do not cover the
bugwards compatibility problem.
> > The problems that
> > lead to non-standard support creaping into implementations are
bugwards
> > supporting features (where a dominant platform implements something
> > wrongly
>
> test-suite

How does that solve it?  Or are you suggesting that the existence of a
test-suite prevents these problems, if it does how - where's the
enforcement process, and why do we have non-conformant viewers currently?

IE5.something on the Mac fully passes the CSS 1.0 test suite AIUI, yet
it's not conformant to the CSS1 Rec.  I'd love to see details of the
results of SVG against the testsuite (in EARL of course) - then we can
also address how test-suites do not solve everything.

> > or from supporting features
> > before they are a standard and ending up incorrectly implemented to
the
> > standard.
>
> test-suite, and developers who are fed up with browser hell, thus won't
> accept this.

We seem all to be accepting the current SVG viewers, yet they aren't
conformant... I don't really understand how you can say that.

> > SVG is so far avoiding these which is great, but I think it's
> > luck rather than anything else.
>
> Very untrue. How could it be luck if there are technical reasons?

I don't agree there are technical reasons... there some elements of the
spec which help (the existence of the spec the tight integration between
spec authors and developers.) but those aren't technical ones.

> HTML was *very* different than SVG; not just the standard, but the
> specification and implementation process. The implementation process
was
> incorporated in W3C's SVG strategy.

I didn't mention HTML, I mentioned XHTML.

> Very untrue. There are way more than five viewers.

Yes, and how many are actually used to view commercially developed
content?

> If we would have only one single closed source viewer by a single
> company, nothing would be solved. Currently, this becomes clear to
many.

Whoever said that was desirable?   I'm actually re-enforcing your view
that interop is hard, but I'm also not deluded into thinking there's a
technical solution.

Jim.

Jim,

there was a time where this was a friendly community; a time when people
did not shout ironic stements at each other.

My statement was incomplete, and was completed by a reference to the
more detailed and correct stament in the archive; it was was a place
holder for that. Since the post was just some weeks old, I did not
repeat all of it's content, but instead included the URL.

Answers to all of your other questions have either been answered here,
ar are available online.

If you find anything in any viewer that does not conform to the spec,
please report that bug to the developers. that's the "enforcement
process"; it works, because you can refer to a concise spec, correctly
implemented features, or/and to a test suite. It's up to the developers
themselves to submit any issues to the implementers.

  > I'd love to see details of the
  > results of SVG against the testsuite

Do you mean results of testing against the SVG test suite? Just look for it.

  >  then we can
  > also address how test-suites do not solve everything.

Sure it doesn't; you youself listed "tight integration between spec
authors and developers", then there's the test suite, correctly
implemented features, and a very concise spec.

Tobi

I was able to get the code using WinCVS.   Do you have a test program for
these classes that you can share?

Rick Bullotta
CTO
Lighthammer Software (www.lighthammer.com)
-----Original Message-----
From: Niklas Gustavsson [mailto:niklas@...]
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:53 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [svg-developers] C# or .NET-based SVG Rendering Engine



   Hi

   We are working such a implementation. Experimental is probably the best
description at the moment :-)

   I just (last week) uploaded the currently implemented SVG DOM classes to
the Sharp Vector Graphics project on sourceforge
(http://sourceforge.net/projects/svgdomcsharp/).

   There you will also find a GDI+ renderer for the currently supported
subset. Later tonight I hope to upload some new stuff and also a lot of
rewritten classes.

   So far it passed these tests:
   http://www.protocol7.com/svg.net/tests.asp

   The CVS version I'm uploading tonight also has very basic text support
(e.g no text on paths, no char-by-char positions, no char rotations).

   If that's enough for you, you are very welcome to download and play with
it and of course to contribute to the code base! We are currently a bit
short on active developers :-)

   /niklas

     ----- Original Message -----
     From: Rick Bullotta
     To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 5:42 PM
     Subject: [svg-developers] C# or .NET-based SVG Rendering Engine


     Anyone aware of any active work in this area?  The stuff on
SourceForge.net
     looks like it hasn't really started yet.  Batik port?  Any experimental
     stuff?  Animations aren't necessary for what we need.  Only "the
basics".

     TIA for any suggestions.
     Rick Bullotta
     CTO
     Lighthammer Software (www.lighthammer.com)





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Tobias Reif" <tobiasreif@...>

> Answers to all of your other questions have either been answered here,
> ar are available online.

Unfortunately they haven't, like much of the discussion it focuses on
technical issues, not human ones.

> If you find anything in any viewer that does not conform to the spec,
> please report that bug to the developers. that's the "enforcement
> process"; it works,

>  > I'd love to see details of the
>  > results of SVG against the testsuite
>
> Do you mean results of testing against the SVG test suite? Just look
for it.

Do you mean http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Test/BE-ImpStatus.html

It's somewhat out of date don't you think? (you also snipped my "in EARL"
of course, but that was tongue in cheek.)

>  >  then we can
>  > also address how test-suites do not solve everything.
>
> Sure it doesn't; you youself listed "tight integration between spec
> authors and developers", then there's the test suite, correctly
> implemented features, and a very concise spec.

One of my points is that implementors such as IE will probably not have
that same tight integration (even within the W3, the developers in IE are
generally distinct to those involved for some reason I understand.)
We've also only got one version of the spec, once we get Edition 1.2 and
2.0 we start to have the larger problem. (that's what happened to HTML
for example.)

Jim.

Jim Ley wrote:


> (that's what happened to HTML
> for example.)


Just read what Chris wrote about HTML. I repeat: there is no reason to
spread FUD based on the history of HTML.


With SVG, a lot of factors are *different*.

Tobi

--
http://www.pinkjuice.com/

3D209E3E.2080400@...>
Subject: Re: [svg-developers] SVG in Google...
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:30:27 -0000
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From: "Jim Ley" <jim@...>
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"Tobias Reif" <tobiasreif@...>
> Jim Ley wrote:
>
> > (that's what happened to HTML for example.)
>
> Just read what Chris wrote about HTML. I repeat: there is no reason to
> spread FUD based on the history of HTML.

None of what Chris wrote addresses my concerns and my arguments for why
there is a risk of incompatibility coming in, My "that's what happened to
HTML for example" highlighted the fact that it wasn't until people wanted
to go beyond the initial spec that anyone had any interopability
problems.

As Chris himself says:

"With SVG, on the other hand, the spec came first and was developed
with the willing participation of the implementors"

Yet, now many people, including me, are advocating support for more
viewers with native support in Mozilla, IE, Konquerer etc.  the more
implementors we have the less people we have involved in that process
(and they may balk at certain decisions in the spec like the use
text/ecmascript which Netscape/Mozilla are already doing.)  and the more
likely we are to get bugs and bugwards compatible authoring.

How many authors do you think validate their SVG?

> With SVG, a lot of factors are *different*.

And lots are the same.

Jim.

--- In svg-developers@y..., "Kevin Lindsey" <kevin@k...> wrote:
> Christopher,
>
> This sounds reasonable.  I tried a simplified version of what
> you described, and it appears to work correctly.  Here's what I
> tried:
>
> [snip code]

OK, Kevin. Here's my simplified version, which does things that way I
need it done. Can you tell me what's wrong with my code? It just
doesn't work. The circle scales too much.

I'm missing something obvious, I know.

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1" standalone="no"?>
<!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 20010904//EN"
	 "http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-SVG-20010904/DTD/svg10.dtd" [
	 <!ATTLIST svg
		 xmlns:a3 CDATA #IMPLIED
		 a3:scriptImplementation CDATA #IMPLIED>
	 <!ATTLIST script
		 a3:scriptImplementation CDATA #IMPLIED>
	 ]>
<svg onload="init(evt)" onzoom="resize(evt)" width="1000px"
height="1000px" viewBox="0 0 1000 1000"
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"
xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink"
xmlns:a3="http://ns.adobe.com/AdobeSVGViewerExtensions/3.0/"
a3:scriptImplementation="Adobe">
<script type="text/ecmascript" a3:scriptImplementation="Adobe"><!
[CDATA[
	 var svgRoot;
	 var starRoot;
	 function init(e) {
		 if (window.svgDocument == null)
			 svgDocument = e.target.ownerDocument;
		 starRoot = svgDocument.getElementById("stars");
		 svgRoot = svgDocument.rootElement;
	 }
	 function star_pop(e,show) {
		 return;
	 }
	 function resize(e) {
		 starNodeList = starRoot.getElementsByTagName
("circle");
		 for (i = 0; i < starNodeList.getLength(); i ++ ) {
			 star = starNodeList.item(i);
			 vt = star.getAttribute("vt");
			 star.setAttributeNS(null, "r", (15.0 - vt) /
svgRoot.currentScale);
		 }
	 }
	 ]]>
</script>
	 <g id="stars" fill="black" stroke="white" stroke-width="2">
		 <circle id="0001 00013 1" cx="450.23283600"
cy="93.04240000" ra="1.12558209" de="2.26739400" r="6.330"
bt="10.488" vt="8.670" mr="27.7" md="-0.5"/>
	 </g>
</svg>
-Christopher

sentto-1298421-18477-1025548421-tobiasreif=pinkjuice.com@...\
m
wrote:


> How many authors do you think validate their SVG?


People who don't validate can not complain about the viewer being
non-conformant; it's that simple.


>>With SVG, a lot of factors are *different*.
>>
> And lots are the same.


These still don't justify spreading FUD.

Tobi


--
http://www.pinkjuice.com/