> <svg viewBox="0 0 1024 768" width="100%" height="100%"
version="1.1"
> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"
> xmlns:a3="http://ns.adobe.com/AdobeSVGViewerExtension/3.0/"
> xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink"
> xmlns:attrib="http://www.carto.net/attrib"
> xmlns:batik="http://xml.apache.org/batik/ext"
> onload="init(evt);startup(evt);" onresize='myMapApp.resetFactors();'
> zoomAndPan="disable">
>
> <svg id="mainMap" x="0" y="0"  viewBox="30000 20000 800 700"
width="553"
> height="700" cursor="crosshair">

the inner width and height of the viewBox (800 700) should have the
same aspect ratio as the width and height attribute of the svg
element, which is not the case in your example.


> If u see the above example ...map display from the top left corner
of the
> browser..
> Instead it is displaying the map in middle of the browser .

this is normal behavior - by default, SVG always centers content if
the aspectRatio of the browser window does not fit the width and
height dimensions specified.

Have a look at:
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/coords.html#PreserveAspectRatioAttribute

where the default (also in your case) being "xMidYMid"

Maybe you can try fixing the aspect Ratio things and if it still
fails, provide a full (but simple) example. It is hard to debug large
examples, but it needs to be a fully working example demonstrating
that the coordinate transformation fails.

Andreas

> It has been typical in my time on the internet  ( since ~1994 )
that all
> the
> browser offerings have been years behind the spec. In this instance
> it might even be a good thing that M$ refrains from butchering
another spec.

yes, there are many other W3C standards that aren't widely
implemented beside SVG.

But SVG really is basic infrastructure in my opinion that needs to be
present in all browsers.

> The SVG advocates need to get their collective act together,

I can only agree here

> The SVG WIKI is in ill repair and offering to edit the parts I can
> seems to fall upon deaf ears, My  findings during
> development  would be there for  others as well as myself the
> next time through.

yes improving the Wiki is important.

> The galleries are full of SVG that does not even pass validation at
> http://validator.w3.org let alone come close to being XBrowser.

yes, fixing

> These things have far less to do with the behaviors of
> the evil empire  ( Microsoft, Adobe etc) and far more to
> do with the SVG communities apparent lack of interest in
> pulling it together.

I fully agree with this statement. The community wasn't that active
in the past couple months. If there'd be a lot of compelling SVG
content out their, it would increase the pressure on Microsoft to
include SVG support sooner than later.

Andreas

> natively support SVG.  The Fortune 500 company I work for insists
> that IE 6 is our approved web browser.

yes, this is sad. I agree that SVG support in IE is important.

But if you have choice or can guide them to a different product, I am
convinced that most of the alternative browsers are much better than
IE, both from a security, usability and capabilities point of view

But I guess I don't have to convince you, but the companies out there
  ...

> I was able to put together some very nice SVG based dashboards that
> were very well recieved but that required the installation of
Adobe's
> (another W3C member) SVG viewer (ASV).  Now I hear that there are
> some major issues if one upgrades to IE 7.  Combine that with
Adobe's
> decision to drop support for their ASV product and things do not
look
> good for SVG.

Well its not that bad. Opera is really active in SVG, Firefox 3 will
have major improvements and Safari/Webkit is soon also shipping SVG
support.

Given that all the alternative browsers are gaining ground, its not
that bad.

I agree that all the implementations need to improve, esp. in
performance, when compared, f.e. to the performance that Flash
offers. This is critical not for all graphics/applications, but for
some (with larger amounts of data, e.g. mapping, technical drawings,
etc.)

> What can we as SVG advocates do to turn this situation around or is
> it time to learn a non standard like XAML?  Is it time to throw in
> the towel and pay Adobe for their Flash product?  How is that W3C
> members such as M$ and Adobe can ignore the very recommendation of
> the boards they are part of?

Luckily most browsers makers (including Microsoft) offer now the
community to provide feedback. It is important to speak up in these
communities (forums, mailinglists, wikis) and tell people that SVG is
important and useful. Also, if they are implementing, it is important
to provide bug reports. The use of SVG is so diverse, that the
browser makers can't test all use cases. Only if you report bugs,
there is a chance that bugs and performance problems get fixed.

Also, creating compelling SVG content would help to put pressure on
browser makers to put more resources behind SVG.

Andreas

Thanx a lot andreas .
I found that aspect ratio problem...It's working now..


Thanx
   -----Original Message-----
   From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Andreas Neumann
   Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 2:33 PM
   To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Unable to draw inside the canvasrect


   > <svg viewBox="0 0 1024 768" width="100%" height="100%"
   version="1.1"
   > xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"
   > xmlns:a3="http://ns.adobe.com/AdobeSVGViewerExtension/3.0/"
   > xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink"
   > xmlns:attrib="http://www.carto.net/attrib"
   > xmlns:batik="http://xml.apache.org/batik/ext"
   > onload="init(evt);startup(evt);" onresize='myMapApp.resetFactors();'
   > zoomAndPan="disable">
   >
   > <svg id="mainMap" x="0" y="0" viewBox="30000 20000 800 700"
   width="553"
   > height="700" cursor="crosshair">

   the inner width and height of the viewBox (800 700) should have the
   same aspect ratio as the width and height attribute of the svg
   element, which is not the case in your example.

   > If u see the above example ...map display from the top left corner
   of the
   > browser..
   > Instead it is displaying the map in middle of the browser .

   this is normal behavior - by default, SVG always centers content if
   the aspectRatio of the browser window does not fit the width and
   height dimensions specified.

   Have a look at:
   http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/coords.html#PreserveAspectRatioAttribute

   where the default (also in your case) being "xMidYMid"

   Maybe you can try fixing the aspect Ratio things and if it still
   fails, provide a full (but simple) example. It is hard to debug large
   examples, but it needs to be a fully working example demonstrating
   that the coordinate transformation fails.

   Andreas






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Opening in IE 6/W2K /ASV6b, I get the alert:
"jsXMLlib.js::DCxml(../XML/SpeakerSelector.xml) No XML Support

The onmouseovers don't seem to work.

On IE, I use:

   if (!e) var e = window.event;
   var oSourceEvt = e.target ? e.target: e.srcElement;

(where e is the event parameter).

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "tcpcoder" <drclue@...> wrote:
>
> http://kirksaeter.com/SpeakerSelector/Assets/Images/SpeakerSelector.svg
>
> Opera and Firebox simply seem to be happy for both linuc/windows
>
> IE is making strides, and I think this round will
> see but maybe one or two errors more.
>
> One thing I did notice is that using an onmousexxxx attributr
> that calls a javascript function passing the value (this)
> ends up not with the object firing the event but rather
> a window object.
>
> Easy enough to just pass (evt) which I think should
> be working now.
>
> I look forward to completing this little project as
> it has served the perpose of identifying the common paths
> of support in the viewers.
>

Just like we managed to get Adobe to postpone the End-Of-Life of ASV,
there's more we can do:


On HTML: First everybody blamed 'other' browsers ("but it works in
IE"), now even the broader public is starting to understand it's
usually broken HTML (or just "broken websites") being the cause,
though you now also sometimes hear "IE is broken" or more often "IE
sucks".

The broader public has mostly never heard of SVG, that's no problem.
If something doesn't seem to work they first blame the things visible
to them (the vehicles of SVG), a product name like for example
"Inkscape" or "Firefox" or "Google Maps". These might be bad examples
though, as these are considered to offer significant added value or to
be just COOL, mostly because they seem to just work.

Improving the general "it just works" factor of SVG with some easy
community effort (can start with just a few minutes) would speed up
both the growth of SVG and "IE is broken":


- Fixing the MIME-type:

Some content that is meant to result in an image on screen, shows up
code or a saveAs dialog because it is not served as image/svg+xml
This problem is definitely shrinking (and goes away once IANA adds it
to THE list), but could shrink faster. Especially content that is
linked to a lot, could use a polite report of needing a simple fix to
stop it from being invisible to many (customers). Send along
http://wiki.svg.org/MIME_Type You'll  get thanked.


- Not forgetting the namespace declarations:

similar


- Updating SVG Wiki:

Join in. Use Wiki URLs in answering on this list


- pimp SVG

Visually of course !!
"clipart of the week" on http://openclipart.org/cchost is a nice
little example. Looking forward to many more, addicting (mobile) games
maybe, screensaver pieces of art, etc.
When you blog about them, also be visual, just use SVG (possible
fallback: "your browser can't handle SVG directly; see it indirectly
through Java" (Batik Squiggle WebStarted))


- report bugs:

On viewers, editors, generators, content, documentation


- ask for SVG as a feature:

This is often covered already, if not: just ask


- help Xbrowser projects:

There are useful validators and Xbrowser scripting libraries that can
use some help or promotion


I'm sure the small minority already doing lots or all of these would
very much appreciate your bit of help, as will you yourself.


Just some ideas
Ruud
http://svg.startpagina.nl (SVG links resource)

For those who didn't know yet: irc://irc.freenode.net/svg

The Speaker Selector is almost done for Opera,Firefox and IE
with but some last tweaks required for IE.

http://kirksaeter.com/SpeakerSelector/Assets/Images/SpeakerSelector.svg
http://kirksaeter.com/SpeakerSelector/SpeakerSelector.html

I've added a new tool that will only try and fire
for IE , but works foe Oper and Firefox.

This tool allows one developing in svg to have a
scrolling message window to send ones development messages to.

I just need to debug this las little click thing
in the speaker selection menu in the IE context and I can
call the speaker selector itself done.

I'm slowly working on the wiki.svg.org stuff in my spare time
and have established some basic templates for most of the
SVG elements.

I really want to do something about that wiki.svg element list,
but I need to figure out how I can get past the wiki syntax
and inject various XML via XSL. in an iframe or something.
It does our cause little good if the documentation system
does not allow us to use the technologies we are working with.

Hi folks,

this is a very preliminary announcement. We haven't settled all the
details yet, but we have at least lined up management support and got
commitments to go ahead, so we can let you know.

The SVG Open 2007 Conference will be held in Tokyo Japan, co-hosted by
Opera Software and W3C Keio. We are planning for a date sometime in
september, but until Keio's university scheduling process is complete,
which should be in february, we cannot finally confirm an exact date. (We
are hoping for 12-14 September)

In due course we will be updating the website, putting out a call for
papers, and so forth. We are interested in full papers, posters, and
perhaps lightning talks and late-breaking news (which obviously can wait
until later for submission :) ).

Further details will be coming here too, when we have a bit more of a
proper shape. In the meantime, start planning to be in Japan in September
- practice with those chopsticks, get out the language tapes and make some
cool demo fonts using japanese characters, think about vertical text
layout, and get the budget in shape.

We look forward to seeing you in Tokyo.

for the organisers at W3C and Opera,

Chaals

--
    Charles McCathieNevile, Opera Software: Standards Group
    hablo español  -  je parle français  -  jeg lærer norsk
chaals@...          Try Opera 9 now! http://opera.com

Excellent news!
not sure I can make it, but...
be sure to check out the Rock Festival held near Mt Fuji at the end
of September...
It's smaller that Fuji Rock Festival but the same management.

best wishes

Jonathan Chetwynd



On 3 Dec 2006, at 04:31, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:

Hi folks,

this is a very preliminary announcement. We haven't settled all the
details yet, but we have at least lined up management support and got
commitments to go ahead, so we can let you know.

The SVG Open 2007 Conference will be held in Tokyo Japan, co-hosted by
Opera Software and W3C Keio. We are planning for a date sometime in
september, but until Keio's university scheduling process is complete,
which should be in february, we cannot finally confirm an exact date.
(We
are hoping for 12-14 September)

In due course we will be updating the website, putting out a call for
papers, and so forth. We are interested in full papers, posters, and
perhaps lightning talks and late-breaking news (which obviously can wait
until later for submission :) ).

Further details will be coming here too, when we have a bit more of a
proper shape. In the meantime, start planning to be in Japan in
September
- practice with those chopsticks, get out the language tapes and make
some
cool demo fonts using japanese characters, think about vertical text
layout, and get the budget in shape.

We look forward to seeing you in Tokyo.

for the organisers at W3C and Opera,

Chaals

--
Charles McCathieNevile, Opera Software: Standards Group
hablo español - je parle français - jeg lærer norsk
chaals@... Try Opera 9 now! http://opera.com

Bonjour,

J'ai besoin d'afficher une image svg à partir de mon programme Java.

J'ai abandonné la solution d'utiliser un applet, parce que j'ai
besoin, non seulement de récupérer des paramètres suite à
des événements sur l'image, mais aussi de manipuler l'image en
fonction des traitements spéciaux en Java de ces paramètres...

en gros: je prend les coordonnées des événements (clicks) sur
l'image, je fais mon traitement en Java, et après je fais des
feedbacks sur l'image ...

mon programme marchait très bien avec une image raster (jpeg, etc.),
mais je voulais passer en svg ..., il y a un petit souçi

ce que j'ai fait est le suivant :
j'ai téléchargé la librairie Batik. J'ai crée l'image à
partir du fichier SVG, je l'ai ajouté dans un Panel comme montré
dans le code ci-dessous. Mais finalement j'ai le frame vide, pourtant
j'ai bien activé mon panel dans le frame...

public class ImagePanel extends JPanel
{
private Image image;
private int x,y;// coordonnées du coin sup gauche

public ImagePanel(URL url,int x,int y)
{
super();
try {
image = new SvgImage(url).getImage(500,300);
} catch (IOException e) {
image = null;
System.err.println("Fichier invalide");
}
System.out.println("image: " + image);
this.x = x;
this.y = y;
setVisible(true);
}

/**
* Gere l'affichage graphique du JPanel, ainsi que le refraichissement.
*/
public void paintComponent(Graphics g)
{
System.out.println("Dans paintComponent. x = " + x + " y = " + y);
super.paintComponent(g);
g.drawImage(image,x,y,null);//w,h,null);
}

/**
* Teste la classe.
*/
public static void main(String[] args) throws Exception{

Dimension screenSize =
java.awt.Toolkit.getDefaultToolkit().getScreenSize();

JFrame w = new JFrame("Essai");
w.pack();
w.setLocation(screenSize.width/2, screenSize.height/2);

URL fichierSvg = new URL("http://.../butterfly.svg
<http://.../butterfly.svg> ");
ImagePanel p = new ImagePanel(fichierSvg,0,5);

p.setVisible(true);
w.setDefaultCloseOperation(JFrame.EXIT_ON_CLOSE);
w.getContentPane().add(p);
w.setSize(550,375);
w.setVisible(true);
}
}

Merci de votre aide,
Send instant messages to your online friends
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There are some issues regarding the rendering of svg document in
Malayalam (an indic language).For some characters eg:- combination of
consonants + vowels signs(
E(0D46),EE(0D47),AI(0D48),O(0D4A),OO(0D48),AU(0D4C)) the rendering are
different from it`s logical order. For details please refer
http://people.w3.org/rishida/scripts/indic-overview/ Eg: Malayalam
letter KA (0D15) + Malayalam Vowel sign E (0D46) has to be rendered as
Malayalam Vowel sign E (0D46) + Malayalam letter KA (0D15).Malayalam
letter KA (0D15) + Malayalam Vowel sign O (0D4A) has to be rendered as
Malayalam Vowel sign E (0D46) + Malayalam letter KA (0D15)+ Malayalam
Vowel sign AA (0D46) etc.. But in svgviewer it is rendered in logical
order.Is this because of lack of support in rendering of indic script ?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

WPF/E is much more closer to SVG than the full fledged WPF, in that it
runs "loose markup" with a scripting model, in a browser. The Full
Fledged WPF really requires a compilation step before it is very useful.

SVG Model

1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or SVG.
2) Files (HTML, SVG, JS, CSS) are returned, rendered, and the scripts
are activated. Javascript can manipulate the SVG DOM to do stuff
3) User is in Business

WPF/E Model

1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or XAML.
2) Files (HTML, XAML, JS) are returned, rendered, and the scripts are
activated. Javascript can manipulate the WPF/E DOM to do stuff
3) User is in Business

Check it out, you might find it interesting

Kevin

Nup, I'm not the least bit interested in that. Another proprietary
model for delivering "rich web apps"? no thanks.

I can't believe *anyone*, except die-hard and blinkered M$ fans, can
want this.

Sounds like they ought to be able to support SVG using this stuff
though, and pretty easily I'd have thought. Clearly they understand
the problem space well enough. What's lacking, as always with M$, is
the will to give support to a technology they can't own. It's my
fervent hope that sooner or later this will bring about their demise,
however, breathless announcements about how "cool" stuff like this is
indicates to me that M$ are as good as ever at spinning a line for
the gullible. They'll have everyone believing they invented the web
all over again.

Let's hope this goes the way of "Microsoft Network", and they are
eventually forced to throw their lot in with the rest of humanity,
instead of reinventing everything as their own.

Guy

On 05/12/2006, at 6:56 AM, kggsystem wrote:

> WPF/E is much more closer to SVG than the full fledged WPF, in that it
> runs "loose markup" with a scripting model, in a browser. The Full
> Fledged WPF really requires a compilation step before it is very
> useful.
>
> SVG Model
>
> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or SVG.
> 2) Files (HTML, SVG, JS, CSS) are returned, rendered, and the scripts
> are activated. Javascript can manipulate the SVG DOM to do stuff
> 3) User is in Business
>
> WPF/E Model
>
> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or XAML.
> 2) Files (HTML, XAML, JS) are returned, rendered, and the scripts are
> activated. Javascript can manipulate the WPF/E DOM to do stuff
> 3) User is in Business
>
> Check it out, you might find it interesting
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
> -----
> To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> -or-
> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit
> my membership"
> ----
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Well, too bad you won't give it a spin.

I forgot to mention that the WPF/E Beta has runtimes for Internet
Explorer and Firefox on the PC, and for the MAC. Linux runtimes will
follow within a year. Makes me wonder how much more effort the FF
people will want to put into SVG now that they have this WPF/E stuff.

I have been a SVG fan for a long time, but not because it was an Open
Standard spec'd by comittee. I am a fan of SVG because of what it can
do for me and my customers. I am a fan because of it's declarative
nature, elegant schema, rich feature set, and scriptable DOM. So by
extension I am a fan of this WPF/E stuff too. Same model. It has
nothing to do with blinders or gullibility or that Bill Gates
invented the Web, Cellular Telephone, and Transistor or whatever else
he invented.

Kevin




--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton <guy@...> wrote:
>
> Nup, I'm not the least bit interested in that. Another proprietary
> model for delivering "rich web apps"? no thanks.
>
> I can't believe *anyone*, except die-hard and blinkered M$ fans,
can want this.
>
> Sounds like they ought to be able to support SVG using this stuff
> though, and pretty easily I'd have thought. Clearly they understand
> the problem space well enough. What's lacking, as always with M$,
> is the will to give support to a technology they can't own.
> It's my fervent hope that sooner or later this will bring about
> their demise, however, breathless announcements about how "cool"
> stuff like this is  indicates to me that M$ are as good as ever at
> spinning a line for the gullible. They'll have everyone believing
> they invented the web all over again.
>
> Let's hope this goes the way of "Microsoft Network", and they are
> eventually forced to throw their lot in with the rest of humanity,
> instead of reinventing everything as their own.
>
> Guy
>
> On 05/12/2006, at 6:56 AM, kggsystem wrote:
>
> > WPF/E is much more closer to SVG than the full fledged WPF, in
that it
> > runs "loose markup" with a scripting model, in a browser. The Full
> > Fledged WPF really requires a compilation step before it is very
> > useful.
> >
> > SVG Model
> >
> > 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or SVG.
> > 2) Files (HTML, SVG, JS, CSS) are returned, rendered, and the
scripts
> > are activated. Javascript can manipulate the SVG DOM to do stuff
> > 3) User is in Business
> >
> > WPF/E Model
> >
> > 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or
XAML.
> > 2) Files (HTML, XAML, JS) are returned, rendered, and the scripts
are
> > activated. Javascript can manipulate the WPF/E DOM to do stuff
> > 3) User is in Business
> >
> > Check it out, you might find it interesting
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
> > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > -or-
> > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and
click "edit
> > my membership"
> > ----
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

Why would I want to ask my Firefox and Opera-using clients to
download a plug-in to do something those browsers can already do
natively?

Maybe if all you really care about is Windows, then yeah, knock
yourself out.

A vote for proprietary technology in this case is a vote for more
corporate power. Yeah, I think M$ needs some more of that. I'm sure
they'll never abuse it. Let's all help M$ by adopting WPF/E over
equivalent open standard and open source alternatives!

Guy




On 05/12/2006, at 4:47 PM, kggsystem wrote:

> Well, too bad you won't give it a spin.
>
> I forgot to mention that the WPF/E Beta has runtimes for Internet
> Explorer and Firefox on the PC, and for the MAC. Linux runtimes will
> follow within a year. Makes me wonder how much more effort the FF
> people will want to put into SVG now that they have this WPF/E stuff.
>
> I have been a SVG fan for a long time, but not because it was an Open
> Standard spec'd by comittee. I am a fan of SVG because of what it can
> do for me and my customers. I am a fan because of it's declarative
> nature, elegant schema, rich feature set, and scriptable DOM. So by
> extension I am a fan of this WPF/E stuff too. Same model. It has
> nothing to do with blinders or gullibility or that Bill Gates
> invented the Web, Cellular Telephone, and Transistor or whatever else
> he invented.
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton <guy@...> wrote:
>>
>> Nup, I'm not the least bit interested in that. Another proprietary
>> model for delivering "rich web apps"? no thanks.
>>
>> I can't believe *anyone*, except die-hard and blinkered M$ fans,
> can want this.
>>
>> Sounds like they ought to be able to support SVG using this stuff
>> though, and pretty easily I'd have thought. Clearly they understand
>> the problem space well enough. What's lacking, as always with M$,
>> is the will to give support to a technology they can't own.
>> It's my fervent hope that sooner or later this will bring about
>> their demise, however, breathless announcements about how "cool"
>> stuff like this is  indicates to me that M$ are as good as ever at
>> spinning a line for the gullible. They'll have everyone believing
>> they invented the web all over again.
>>
>> Let's hope this goes the way of "Microsoft Network", and they are
>> eventually forced to throw their lot in with the rest of humanity,
>> instead of reinventing everything as their own.
>>
>> Guy
>>
>> On 05/12/2006, at 6:56 AM, kggsystem wrote:
>>
>>> WPF/E is much more closer to SVG than the full fledged WPF, in
> that it
>>> runs "loose markup" with a scripting model, in a browser. The Full
>>> Fledged WPF really requires a compilation step before it is very
>>> useful.
>>>
>>> SVG Model
>>>
>>> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or SVG.
>>> 2) Files (HTML, SVG, JS, CSS) are returned, rendered, and the
> scripts
>>> are activated. Javascript can manipulate the SVG DOM to do stuff
>>> 3) User is in Business
>>>
>>> WPF/E Model
>>>
>>> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or
> XAML.
>>> 2) Files (HTML, XAML, JS) are returned, rendered, and the scripts
> are
>>> activated. Javascript can manipulate the WPF/E DOM to do stuff
>>> 3) User is in Business
>>>
>>> Check it out, you might find it interesting
>>>
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----
>>> To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
>>> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> -or-
>>> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and
> click "edit
>>> my membership"
>>> ----
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> -----
> To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> -or-
> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit
> my membership"
> ----
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

this might be an interesting target for the developers of cross
browser 2D vectorgraphics toolkits (dojo, etc.) until IE properly
supports SVG, which I hope they do soon, now that they already
support similar technology.

I guess its more powerful than VML, is it?

Does WPF/E support declarative animation?

Does that WPF/E thing run in IE6 and IE7 without having to install
additional software?

Andreas


--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "kggsystem" <kevgor@...> wrote:
>
> WPF/E is much more closer to SVG than the full fledged WPF, in that
it
> runs "loose markup" with a scripting model, in a browser. The Full
> Fledged WPF really requires a compilation step before it is very
useful.
>
> SVG Model
>
> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or SVG.
> 2) Files (HTML, SVG, JS, CSS) are returned, rendered, and the
scripts
> are activated. Javascript can manipulate the SVG DOM to do stuff
> 3) User is in Business
>
> WPF/E Model
>
> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or XAML.
> 2) Files (HTML, XAML, JS) are returned, rendered, and the scripts
are
> activated. Javascript can manipulate the WPF/E DOM to do stuff
> 3) User is in Business
>
> Check it out, you might find it interesting
>
> Kevin
>

* Andreas Neumann wrote:
>I guess its more powerful than VML, is it?

Mostly.

>Does WPF/E support declarative animation?

Yes.

>Does that WPF/E thing run in IE6 and IE7 without having to install
>additional software?

Of course not.
--
Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@... · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de
Weinh. Str. 22 · Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de
68309 Mannheim · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/

Hi list,
I thought WPF/E was just a grab at December Advertisement networks of
computer users with an announcement of 'open' SDK of 5.1MB for XP2 or Vista
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=2b01ec7e-c3b8-47cc-
b12a-67c30191c3aa&DisplayLang=en that is downloaded from a DOCTYPE HTML
PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN" page with the 'wonderful'
mine-type of MSI format.  At the same time I can find a add to upgrade my
os, and perhaps later new computer to run my upgraded vista? (I am sure m$
hide that from advertisers and would never boast how many users they target
with online and offline advertisements like AOL CD mailouts while getting my
government and others to create laws preventing Spam)

I can only think that "within a year" simply is evidence of 'the current m$
grab' at bogging down open standards in billions of line of code while
Preventing the porting for a year to target sales on Server environments
first, users are second with a line of offline tools.

I think the below is somewhat incorrect in that a Server is required for
most XAML returns of data unless you can hand code it.  In WPF/E step 2 the
function is broken because m$ "recommends" that you use "the related m$
server product" to return XAML.  As such its just a 'marketing term' for the
current m$ grab at cgi ssi.

While I am dumb simple user, I am not that dumb - The only thing invented
here is greed, simple, pure, ...
:-)
Jason

----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Morton" <guy@...>
To: <svg-developers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview
available for download


> Why would I want to ask my Firefox and Opera-using clients to
> download a plug-in to do something those browsers can already do
> natively?
>
> Maybe if all you really care about is Windows, then yeah, knock
> yourself out.
>
> A vote for proprietary technology in this case is a vote for more
> corporate power. Yeah, I think M$ needs some more of that. I'm sure
> they'll never abuse it. Let's all help M$ by adopting WPF/E over
> equivalent open standard and open source alternatives!
>
> Guy
>
>
>
>
> On 05/12/2006, at 4:47 PM, kggsystem wrote:
>
> > Well, too bad you won't give it a spin.
> >
> > I forgot to mention that the WPF/E Beta has runtimes for Internet
> > Explorer and Firefox on the PC, and for the MAC. Linux runtimes will
> > follow within a year. Makes me wonder how much more effort the FF
> > people will want to put into SVG now that they have this WPF/E stuff.
> >
> > I have been a SVG fan for a long time, but not because it was an Open
> > Standard spec'd by comittee. I am a fan of SVG because of what it can
> > do for me and my customers. I am a fan because of it's declarative
> > nature, elegant schema, rich feature set, and scriptable DOM. So by
> > extension I am a fan of this WPF/E stuff too. Same model. It has
> > nothing to do with blinders or gullibility or that Bill Gates
> > invented the Web, Cellular Telephone, and Transistor or whatever else
> > he invented.
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton <guy@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Nup, I'm not the least bit interested in that. Another proprietary
> >> model for delivering "rich web apps"? no thanks.
> >>
> >> I can't believe *anyone*, except die-hard and blinkered M$ fans,
> > can want this.
> >>
> >> Sounds like they ought to be able to support SVG using this stuff
> >> though, and pretty easily I'd have thought. Clearly they understand
> >> the problem space well enough. What's lacking, as always with M$,
> >> is the will to give support to a technology they can't own.
> >> It's my fervent hope that sooner or later this will bring about
> >> their demise, however, breathless announcements about how "cool"
> >> stuff like this is  indicates to me that M$ are as good as ever at
> >> spinning a line for the gullible. They'll have everyone believing
> >> they invented the web all over again.
> >>
> >> Let's hope this goes the way of "Microsoft Network", and they are
> >> eventually forced to throw their lot in with the rest of humanity,
> >> instead of reinventing everything as their own.
> >>
> >> Guy
> >>
> >> On 05/12/2006, at 6:56 AM, kggsystem wrote:
> >>
> >>> WPF/E is much more closer to SVG than the full fledged WPF, in
> > that it
> >>> runs "loose markup" with a scripting model, in a browser. The Full
> >>> Fledged WPF really requires a compilation step before it is very
> >>> useful.
> >>>
> >>> SVG Model
> >>>
> >>> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or SVG.
> >>> 2) Files (HTML, SVG, JS, CSS) are returned, rendered, and the
> > scripts
> >>> are activated. Javascript can manipulate the SVG DOM to do stuff
> >>> 3) User is in Business
> >>>
> >>> WPF/E Model
> >>>
> >>> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or
> > XAML.
> >>> 2) Files (HTML, XAML, JS) are returned, rendered, and the scripts
> > are
> >>> activated. Javascript can manipulate the WPF/E DOM to do stuff
> >>> 3) User is in Business
> >>>
> >>> Check it out, you might find it interesting
> >>>
> >>> Kevin
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----
> >>> To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
> >>> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>> -or-
> >>> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and
> > click "edit
> >>> my membership"
> >>> ----
> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
> > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > -or-
> > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit
> > my membership"
> > ----
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> -----
> To unsubscribe send a message to:
svg-developers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> -or-
> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my
membership"
> ----
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

> I forgot to mention that the WPF/E Beta has runtimes for Internet
> Explorer and Firefox on the PC, and for the MAC. Linux runtimes
will

hm - I had no luck viewing WPF/E content on my Mac, despite its
claims to support MacOSX. First it told me I have to use Firefox
1.5.8. It did not like Firefox2. Then it told me, that I need a
plugin, which it did not find.

> follow within a year. Makes me wonder how much more effort the FF
> people will want to put into SVG now that they have this WPF/E
stuff.

hopefully more. I don't see this WPF/E as an SVG replacement if it
does not run in the common browsers and operating systems and is not
based on open standards.


> I have been a SVG fan for a long time, but not because it was an
Open
> Standard spec'd by comittee. I am a fan of SVG because of what it
can
> do for me and my customers. I am a fan because of it's declarative
> nature, elegant schema, rich feature set, and scriptable DOM. So by
> extension I am a fan of this WPF/E stuff too. Same model. It has

true - I would certainly prefer this WPF/E stuff over Macrodobe
Flash, since its closer to the declarative way. However, I still hope
that SVG succeeds in this area.

Andreas

> hm - I had no luck viewing WPF/E content on my Mac, despite its
> claims to support MacOSX. First it told me I have to use Firefox
> 1.5.8. It did not like Firefox2. Then it told me, that I need a
> plugin, which it did not find.

I finally installed the plugin on the mac. It needs a manual install.
Automatic install does not work yet.

Performance is very disappointing, though. The page turn is slow and
the video comes with a framerate of 2-3 frames per second.

My Computer is not the latest, its still a PowerPC, with 1GB Ram,
1Ghz Processor.

Flash content runs slick on this machine.

Andreas

Why ?
1. Firefox and Opera support is no where near complete compare to
both Adobe SVG Viewer. It really limit the scope of the application
you could develop with those 2 browser as target.

2. For IE, you need plugin anyway. And the best SVG viewer (Adobe) is
dead.

If your application involves simple stuff which works fine in Firefox
and Opera, and you only target less than 20% of the browser install
base, go ahead with SVG.

I have been a SVG fan for a long time (for the exact same reason as
Kevin), and did develop application with it. But since Adobe pull the
plug, it is a whole different game.

Tony

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton <guy@...> wrote:
>
> Why would I want to ask my Firefox and Opera-using clients to
> download a plug-in to do something those browsers can already do
> natively?
>
> Maybe if all you really care about is Windows, then yeah, knock
> yourself out.
>
> A vote for proprietary technology in this case is a vote for more
> corporate power. Yeah, I think M$ needs some more of that. I'm
sure
> they'll never abuse it. Let's all help M$ by adopting WPF/E over
> equivalent open standard and open source alternatives!
>
> Guy
>
>
>
>
> On 05/12/2006, at 4:47 PM, kggsystem wrote:
>
> > Well, too bad you won't give it a spin.
> >
> > I forgot to mention that the WPF/E Beta has runtimes for Internet
> > Explorer and Firefox on the PC, and for the MAC. Linux runtimes
will
> > follow within a year. Makes me wonder how much more effort the FF
> > people will want to put into SVG now that they have this WPF/E
stuff.
> >
> > I have been a SVG fan for a long time, but not because it was an
Open
> > Standard spec'd by comittee. I am a fan of SVG because of what it
can
> > do for me and my customers. I am a fan because of it's declarative
> > nature, elegant schema, rich feature set, and scriptable DOM. So
by
> > extension I am a fan of this WPF/E stuff too. Same model. It has
> > nothing to do with blinders or gullibility or that Bill Gates
> > invented the Web, Cellular Telephone, and Transistor or whatever
else
> > he invented.
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton <guy@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Nup, I'm not the least bit interested in that. Another
proprietary
> >> model for delivering "rich web apps"? no thanks.
> >>
> >> I can't believe *anyone*, except die-hard and blinkered M$ fans,
> > can want this.
> >>
> >> Sounds like they ought to be able to support SVG using this stuff
> >> though, and pretty easily I'd have thought. Clearly they
understand
> >> the problem space well enough. What's lacking, as always with M$,
> >> is the will to give support to a technology they can't own.
> >> It's my fervent hope that sooner or later this will bring about
> >> their demise, however, breathless announcements about how "cool"
> >> stuff like this is  indicates to me that M$ are as good as ever
at
> >> spinning a line for the gullible. They'll have everyone believing
> >> they invented the web all over again.
> >>
> >> Let's hope this goes the way of "Microsoft Network", and they are
> >> eventually forced to throw their lot in with the rest of
humanity,
> >> instead of reinventing everything as their own.
> >>
> >> Guy
> >>
> >> On 05/12/2006, at 6:56 AM, kggsystem wrote:
> >>
> >>> WPF/E is much more closer to SVG than the full fledged WPF, in
> > that it
> >>> runs "loose markup" with a scripting model, in a browser. The
Full
> >>> Fledged WPF really requires a compilation step before it is very
> >>> useful.
> >>>
> >>> SVG Model
> >>>
> >>> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or
SVG.
> >>> 2) Files (HTML, SVG, JS, CSS) are returned, rendered, and the
> > scripts
> >>> are activated. Javascript can manipulate the SVG DOM to do stuff
> >>> 3) User is in Business
> >>>
> >>> WPF/E Model
> >>>
> >>> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or
> > XAML.
> >>> 2) Files (HTML, XAML, JS) are returned, rendered, and the
scripts
> > are
> >>> activated. Javascript can manipulate the WPF/E DOM to do stuff
> >>> 3) User is in Business
> >>>
> >>> Check it out, you might find it interesting
> >>>
> >>> Kevin
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----
> >>> To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
> >>> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>> -or-
> >>> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and
> > click "edit
> >>> my membership"
> >>> ----
> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
> > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > -or-
> > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and
click "edit
> > my membership"
> > ----
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

tony_ser wrote:
> Why ?
> 1. Firefox and Opera support is no where near complete compare to
> both Adobe SVG Viewer. It really limit the scope of the application
> you could develop with those 2 browser as target.
>
Well, I already create SVG applications, and while
the various implementations are still short of being fully
compliant with the w3.org standards, the overlap of what is already
implemented has me already making money developing
xbrowser SVG.

> 2. For IE, you need plugin anyway. And the best SVG viewer (Adobe) is
> dead.
>
Personally I'm glad that M$ is using a plug-in as it avoids them butchering
yet another spec. As to the Adobe viewer being dead , I think that
is probably but a half truth. Yes  , in 2008 the Adobe Viewer will cease
( That's the true part ). Since Adobe bought Macromedia, that probably
means
they will take the SVG parser and slap it onto an existing Macromedia
product
as otherwise they would need to maintain two code trees. Being as the
flash plugin is in most computers , shifting the SVG effort there would
see an explosion in SVG support.

> If your application involves simple stuff which works fine in Firefox
> and Opera, and you only target less than 20% of the browser install
> base, go ahead with SVG.
>
> I have been a SVG fan for a long time (for the exact same reason as
> Kevin), and did develop application with it. But since Adobe pull the
> plug, it is a whole different game.
>
> Tony
>

I think your just sitting too close to the screen, and need to pull back
some
to see the larger picture of why Adobe having acquired the Flash player
would want to shift the SVG effort into that product and discontinue
the ASV

Doc

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "tony_ser" <tser@...> wrote:
>
> Why ?
> 1. Firefox and Opera support is no where near complete compare to
> both Adobe SVG Viewer. It really limit the scope of the application
> you could develop with those 2 browser as target.

what, specifically are you missing in Opera? Please be specific and
don't just say that its "no where near complete".

In my experience, Opera is already very complete  - not too much
missing. It even does certain stuff in DOM that ASV isn't supporting.

> I have been a SVG fan for a long time (for the exact same reason as
> Kevin), and did develop application with it. But since Adobe pull
the
> plug, it is a whole different game.

why is Adobe so important to SVG? IE is the only browser with no
native SVG support. They have to support it soon if they don't want
to loose more market share. Native SVG support in browsers is much
better than a plugin anyway. With a plugin you are in this box and
the Eolas case showed us what can happen to plugins ... lots of
annoying stuff ...

Andreas

> Well, I already create SVG applications, and while
> the various implementations are still short of being fully
> compliant with the w3.org standards, the overlap of what is already
> implemented has me already making money developing
> xbrowser SVG.

I can say the same about my applications. Most of it runs fine
accross Opera 9, Firefox >1.5 and ASV, with Safari/Webkit soon to
join the club.

Here are some more complex examples that work across browsers:

http://www.geofoto.ch/geophotomap/
http://www.carto.net/williams/yosemite/
all of http://www.carto.net/papers/svg/gui/

Yes, there are some open issues, but none of them are too serious and
not resolvable. If you take the time and report bugs or complain
about missing features, I am sure that Opera and Firefox will react
in a timely manner.

Andreas

On 06/12/2006, at 5:56 AM, tony_ser wrote:

> Why ?
> 1. Firefox and Opera support is no where near complete compare to
> both Adobe SVG Viewer. It really limit the scope of the application
> you could develop with those 2 browser as target.

Well I'm not sure I agree. I've built a pretty sophisticated app that
runs in all three.

> 2. For IE, you need plugin anyway. And the best SVG viewer (Adobe) is
> dead.

Well yes, it's dead in 2008. I agree that we need a good solution for
IE sometime soon. What shits me to tears is that MS clearly could
provide that support if they chose to, but instead they release
something that "embraces and extends" concepts they've ripped off
from the open source community. Personally I'll be in the cold cold
ground before I give that sort of behaviour my support.

Personally, I'd support Flash over WPF/E, via a dojo type solution
that will render to whatever is available in the browser. If that
gives me support via Flash in IE and via SVG in FF and opera, then
I'm happy and MS can go fcuk themselves... :-)

> If your application involves simple stuff which works fine in Firefox
> and Opera, and you only target less than 20% of the browser install
> base, go ahead with SVG.

That's not the only answer to the problem of IE not supporting SVG.

> I have been a SVG fan for a long time (for the exact same reason as
> Kevin), and did develop application with it. But since Adobe pull the
> plug, it is a whole different game.

It's a slightly different game. ASV was always likely to go away
eventually and we've all known that for a while.

Re: the suggestion that Adobe will build support for SVG into the
Flash plugin, that's a tantalising prospect, but I can't see it
happening in our lifetimes. Why would Adobe not have announced that
intention before now, if that was their plan? Why would they do it?

Guy




>
> Tony
>
> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton <guy@...> wrote:
>>
>> Why would I want to ask my Firefox and Opera-using clients to
>> download a plug-in to do something those browsers can already do
>> natively?
>>
>> Maybe if all you really care about is Windows, then yeah, knock
>> yourself out.
>>
>> A vote for proprietary technology in this case is a vote for more
>> corporate power. Yeah, I think M$ needs some more of that. I'm
> sure
>> they'll never abuse it. Let's all help M$ by adopting WPF/E over
>> equivalent open standard and open source alternatives!
>>
>> Guy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 05/12/2006, at 4:47 PM, kggsystem wrote:
>>
>>> Well, too bad you won't give it a spin.
>>>
>>> I forgot to mention that the WPF/E Beta has runtimes for Internet
>>> Explorer and Firefox on the PC, and for the MAC. Linux runtimes
> will
>>> follow within a year. Makes me wonder how much more effort the FF
>>> people will want to put into SVG now that they have this WPF/E
> stuff.
>>>
>>> I have been a SVG fan for a long time, but not because it was an
> Open
>>> Standard spec'd by comittee. I am a fan of SVG because of what it
> can
>>> do for me and my customers. I am a fan because of it's declarative
>>> nature, elegant schema, rich feature set, and scriptable DOM. So
> by
>>> extension I am a fan of this WPF/E stuff too. Same model. It has
>>> nothing to do with blinders or gullibility or that Bill Gates
>>> invented the Web, Cellular Telephone, and Transistor or whatever
> else
>>> he invented.
>>>
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton <guy@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Nup, I'm not the least bit interested in that. Another
> proprietary
>>>> model for delivering "rich web apps"? no thanks.
>>>>
>>>> I can't believe *anyone*, except die-hard and blinkered M$ fans,
>>> can want this.
>>>>
>>>> Sounds like they ought to be able to support SVG using this stuff
>>>> though, and pretty easily I'd have thought. Clearly they
> understand
>>>> the problem space well enough. What's lacking, as always with M$,
>>>> is the will to give support to a technology they can't own.
>>>> It's my fervent hope that sooner or later this will bring about
>>>> their demise, however, breathless announcements about how "cool"
>>>> stuff like this is  indicates to me that M$ are as good as ever
> at
>>>> spinning a line for the gullible. They'll have everyone believing
>>>> they invented the web all over again.
>>>>
>>>> Let's hope this goes the way of "Microsoft Network", and they are
>>>> eventually forced to throw their lot in with the rest of
> humanity,
>>>> instead of reinventing everything as their own.
>>>>
>>>> Guy
>>>>
>>>> On 05/12/2006, at 6:56 AM, kggsystem wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> WPF/E is much more closer to SVG than the full fledged WPF, in
>>> that it
>>>>> runs "loose markup" with a scripting model, in a browser. The
> Full
>>>>> Fledged WPF really requires a compilation step before it is very
>>>>> useful.
>>>>>
>>>>> SVG Model
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or
> SVG.
>>>>> 2) Files (HTML, SVG, JS, CSS) are returned, rendered, and the
>>> scripts
>>>>> are activated. Javascript can manipulate the SVG DOM to do stuff
>>>>> 3) User is in Business
>>>>>
>>>>> WPF/E Model
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or
>>> XAML.
>>>>> 2) Files (HTML, XAML, JS) are returned, rendered, and the
> scripts
>>> are
>>>>> activated. Javascript can manipulate the WPF/E DOM to do stuff
>>>>> 3) User is in Business
>>>>>
>>>>> Check it out, you might find it interesting
>>>>>
>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----
>>>>> To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
>>>>> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>> -or-
>>>>> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and
>>> click "edit
>>>>> my membership"
>>>>> ----
>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----
>>> To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
>>> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> -or-
>>> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and
> click "edit
>>> my membership"
>>> ----
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> -----
> To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> -or-
> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit
> my membership"
> ----
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton <guy@...> wrote:
>
> On 06/12/2006, at 5:56 AM, tony_ser wrote:
<snip>
> Re: the suggestion that Adobe will build support for SVG into the
> Flash plugin, that's a tantalising prospect, but I can't see it
> happening in our lifetimes. Why would Adobe not have announced that
> intention before now, if that was their plan? Why would they do it?
>
> Guy

There are many business reasons I can think of for
keeping such a goal under wraps, although not being a mind
reader I don't know which reasons might be in play.

Well, the why they would do it is XML and all the places
they could market their products that they cannot now.
Additionally , if they don't reposition themselves,
nature abhors a vacuum  and someone will make the plug in.

Even as is , one can do flash like applications in SVG
and the growing maturity of the native implementations
in other browsers will simply make the ASV the ugly one
in the family but still workable.

FLASH will eventually become ever more irrelevant
as will all it's related tools if it decides not
to migrate to w3.org standards.

Guy Morton wrote:
> Re: the suggestion that Adobe will build support for SVG into the
> Flash plugin, that's a tantalising prospect, but I can't see it
> happening in our lifetimes. Why would Adobe not have announced that
> intention before now, if that was their plan? Why would they do it?

I haven't seen any announcements either. Player size still undergoes
vigorous internal debate, though.

But you do know it has been possible, for quite some time, to render
core SVG instructions on the majority of desktops today, right?
http://deng.com.br/features/

If you wish to improve the rendering instructions, then you can do so...
it's an opensource SWF which contains the SVG code:
http://deng.com.br/support/

(Trivia point: The Macromedia Flash Lite 1.1+ libraries for mobile have
the option for an SVG-Tiny compliant rendering engine, but I do not know
of any manufacturers who have deployed that option.)

Summary: There's already a cross-platform, cross-browser engine deployed
to the world's desktops today, which has the capability to render SVG
content. We just need to turn that capability into practice, that's all....

jd






--
John Dowdell . Adobe Developer Support . San Francisco CA USA
Weblog: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd
Aggregator: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mxna
Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/
Spam killed my private email -- public record is best, thanks.

I don't see any support in Deng for scripting or bitmaps. This would be a
show-stopper for us, sadly.


Quoting John Dowdell <jdowdell@...>:

> Guy Morton wrote:
>> Re: the suggestion that Adobe will build support for SVG into the
>> Flash plugin, that's a tantalising prospect, but I can't see it
>> happening in our lifetimes. Why would Adobe not have announced that
>> intention before now, if that was their plan? Why would they do it?
>
> I haven't seen any announcements either. Player size still undergoes
> vigorous internal debate, though.
>
> But you do know it has been possible, for quite some time, to render
> core SVG instructions on the majority of desktops today, right?
> http://deng.com.br/features/
>
> If you wish to improve the rendering instructions, then you can do so...
> it's an opensource SWF which contains the SVG code:
> http://deng.com.br/support/
>
> (Trivia point: The Macromedia Flash Lite 1.1+ libraries for mobile have
> the option for an SVG-Tiny compliant rendering engine, but I do not know
> of any manufacturers who have deployed that option.)
>
> Summary: There's already a cross-platform, cross-browser engine deployed
> to the world's desktops today, which has the capability to render SVG
> content. We just need to turn that capability into practice, that's all....
>
> jd
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> John Dowdell . Adobe Developer Support . San Francisco CA USA
> Weblog: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd
> Aggregator: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mxna
> Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/
> Spam killed my private email -- public record is best, thanks.
>
>
> -----
> To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> -or-
> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my
> membership"
> ----
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Isn't that funny...I almost invoked your name today in that post
john...you must
have picked up the vibes from the morphogenetic field.

Deng sounds interesting. I'll look into it. Will Adobe look at sinking
any funds
into its development?

Guy


Quoting John Dowdell <jdowdell@...>:

> Guy Morton wrote:
>> Re: the suggestion that Adobe will build support for SVG into the
>> Flash plugin, that's a tantalising prospect, but I can't see it
>> happening in our lifetimes. Why would Adobe not have announced that
>> intention before now, if that was their plan? Why would they do it?
>
> I haven't seen any announcements either. Player size still undergoes
> vigorous internal debate, though.
>
> But you do know it has been possible, for quite some time, to render
> core SVG instructions on the majority of desktops today, right?
> http://deng.com.br/features/
>
> If you wish to improve the rendering instructions, then you can do so...
> it's an opensource SWF which contains the SVG code:
> http://deng.com.br/support/
>
> (Trivia point: The Macromedia Flash Lite 1.1+ libraries for mobile have
> the option for an SVG-Tiny compliant rendering engine, but I do not know
> of any manufacturers who have deployed that option.)
>
> Summary: There's already a cross-platform, cross-browser engine deployed
> to the world's desktops today, which has the capability to render SVG
> content. We just need to turn that capability into practice, that's all....
>
> jd
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> John Dowdell . Adobe Developer Support . San Francisco CA USA
> Weblog: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd
> Aggregator: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mxna
> Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/
> Spam killed my private email -- public record is best, thanks.
>
>
> -----
> To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> -or-
> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my
> membership"
> ----
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>