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RFC: Clearing confusion for RSS, agreement for forward motion   Topic List   < Prev Topic  |  Next Topic >
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OK, I've given this some thought, I'd like everyone to keep discussing even
if there are points of disagreement. There may be holes in what I'm
proposing. So please read this carefully, give it some thought, if you see a
problem, state it. Items 1-5 are recitals, and 6-14 form a proposal. I am
not a lawyer, and did not have my lawyer review this document before posting
it.

1. I don't like the idea of "sharing" the name. While sharing is a good
thing in general, when it comes to naming things, well if they're different
they should have different names. This is the source of the confusion.

2. Mark Nottingham says that the number of 0.90 sources plus the "1.0"
sources roughly equals the number of 0.91 sources. My numbers show
otherwise, as I've posted them here and on Scripting News. Among the
actively updating channels on My.UserLand 0.91 is by far the format with the
largest installed base. So if we're going to quote numbers we must get some
agreeable way of surveying the installed base before making decisions based
on this. Or we could stop quoting numbers. (Which is I think is the
productive and forward-moving way.)

3. One thing's for sure, though, 0.91 has had the longest run of any of the
formats. It was promoted heavily, and gained wide adoption. Orphaning this
format is not a good option. Therefore, in my humble opinion, anything that
has the RSS name must be compatible with 0.91.

4. I strongly believe RSS is a Web content syndication format and nothing
more. You can see that I acted on this belief by creating a new format in
OPML, and did not try to shoehorn it into RSS. However, it seems that OPML
is in somewhat the same space as "1.0".

5. I could indeed withdraw from further discussions and work on RSS. In fact
that's part of my proposal, below. There are other people at UserLand who
can represent our interests, and in fact some of our development partners
could adequately represent our interests if a collegial atmosphere develops,
and I hope it does.

6. Now, putting on my "what's the best thing for RSS" hat, and ignoring any
difficulty that might be there for any person, company or group, I think the
best thing is to do some renamimg. Let the RSS name be used only for the
0.90 and 0.91 formats. Declare 0.90 deprecated and document 0.91, do more
tutorials, etc. Evangelize. Clear up all the confusion. Authorship credit
for 0.91 goes equally to Netscape and UserLand. A final version of the 0.91
spec is created derived from the one on backend.userland.com, and it will
contain pointers, at the end of the document, to any websites that are
created for subsequent formats that offer compatibility with 0.91. As a
gesture of goodwill it will also include a pointer to the RDF fork. This
specification will maintain a copyright notice that allows it to be copied
in whole or in part.

7. Both branches take new names. Neither format has the letters "SS" in
their name. The RSS-DEV list changes its name to reflect the new name for
the RDF-and-namespaces branch.

8. Re the "simple" branch -- if a working group is formed, it should be
comprised of users of the format, i.e. content developers, and it should
take input from tool vendors, aggregators, content management system
developers. This is an insurance that their needs are met should the simple
branch evolve. It will not be called RSS. Then what RSS is is very simple,
is no longer contested, in any way, now or in the future, it has a large
installed base, is easily documented and evangelized, there's no need for
further discussion since it's well-known what it is.

9. I will not personally participate in the evolution of either branch. This
is my exit point, personally, from RSS work. However, UserLand will
participate in some manner in the work done on the "simple" branch, and
possibly in the RDF branch. If either group asks my opinion on something, I
will offer it, but only offlist, and only if I have the time.

10. I believe there are only a few users of 0.92, while there may be many
channels, most of them are managed with Radio UserLand, and we would commit
to changing the name of the format in a subsequent release, and would
encourage others who are deploying in this format to change the name in
their implementations.

11. When we've made similar offers in the past, some have said that we
should just change the name and let the RDF people use the RSS name. That is
not acceptable. The goal is to clear up confusion in what RSS means. I make
this offer to show that we're willing to share the pain to help RSS
re-establish a clear identity.

12. Arbitration. If there are disputes about this agreement, they will be
arbitrated by a group of three content developers chosen from the
Syndication list, one to be chosen by each side and agreeable to the other,
and a third to be chosen by Mark Nottingham, the founder of the Syndication
list, and this person must also be agreeable to both sides. Decisions of the
three-person panel will be made in a timely fashion and will be final.

13. If this proposal is not accepted by the other side, its terms are not
enforceable.

14. All parties agree to put the past fully behind us. Discussion of events
that took place before agreement was reached will be off-topic on all three
mail lists.

15. A mechanism will be set up for people to endorse this proposal, and a
response is requested from the working group for the RDF fork.

Dave




Wed May 30, 2001 3:46 am

dave@...
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OK, I've given this some thought, I'd like everyone to keep discussing even if there are points of disagreement. There may be holes in what I'm proposing. So...
Dave Winer
dave@...
Send Email
May 30, 2001
3:47 am

... Just looking at this quickly, not reading it thoroughly, this looks like a huge step forward. Thanks for taking the leap of courage, Dave. -- [ Aaron...
Aaron Swartz
aswartz@...
Send Email
May 30, 2001
4:02 am

... different ... Absolutely. We need to get two distinct names, with like-named sites, that come up on top on a Google search. ... the ... some ... based ... ...
Jeff Barr
jeff@...
Send Email
May 30, 2001
4:20 am

... letters "SS" in ... name for ... I think this is a good idea. Especially if something in the HSL feed understands how to *directly* link to an item...
Bill Kearney
wkearney99@...
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May 30, 2001
1:20 pm

... Agreed. RSS 1.0 and RSS 0.92/OPML are intended for different purposes. ... I propose that RSS is frozen at version 0.91 for evermore. Anything else may be...
Ian Davis
ian@...
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May 30, 2001
12:56 pm

I've liked this idea since it was very first proposed, I'm on board. -- Ken...
Ken MacLeod
ken118@...
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May 30, 2001
3:31 pm

Howdy, Well, I've watched percolate a little, both on the lists and in my own head. I have some thoughts which I will inline, along with apropos comments from ...
Rael Dornfest
rael@...
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May 31, 2001
9:37 pm

Alright, I now have the time to look over this proposal carefully. I see some flaws, so I'm going to propose some corrections. Let me know what you think. As...
Aaron Swartz
aswartz@...
Send Email
Jun 1, 2001
12:51 am

I only have time for a quick reply. There's a major problem with the naming: 1. RSS 0.91 2. RSS-Simple x.xx 3. RSS-Semantic-x.xx The problem is this. Why is...
Dave Winer
dave@...
Send Email
Jun 1, 2001
1:39 am

... Now I'm confused -- I thought you said that you were willing to take the pain of changing the name to stop the confusion. I'm proposing a simple solution...
Aaron Swartz
aswartz@...
Send Email
Jun 1, 2001
1:49 am

Howdy, ... I believe folks were proposing "Simple" based upon your reallySimpleSyndication. RSS-Simple is obviously a stand-in until a new name is found. We...
Rael Dornfest
rael@...
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Jun 1, 2001
2:06 am

It doesn't matter so much what these things mean to you and I, what matters is what they mean to newbies. I'm going to be really straight -- the two new names...
Dave Winer
dave@...
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Jun 1, 2001
4:31 am

Hi, ... Agreed completely. And I invite, as I did for all the lurkers on RSS-DEV, users, both newbies and old hacks, to speak up on what makes most sense to ...
Rael Dornfest
rael@...
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Jun 1, 2001
4:59 am

I think the proposed roadmap was really clear. We're going around in loops here. View my proposed roadmap as a spec. See what it says. I don't want to carry...
Dave Winer
dave@...
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Jun 1, 2001
4:56 am

Hi, ... It most definitely was, as were the responses to it. I think we're fundamentally very much in agreement. The naming seems to be the primary stumbling...
Rael Dornfest
rael@...
Send Email
Jun 1, 2001
5:10 am

... And we do. Sorry. RSS-Semantic seems like a good compromise to me, but we can always leave the name as it is. -- [ Aaron Swartz | me@... |...
Aaron Swartz
aswartz@...
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Jun 1, 2001
5:43 am

... You do, Aaron, and I may want to -- indeed my lean is towards that at present. Indeed there have been several times when I'd have had no problem with xRSS...
rael@...
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Jun 1, 2001
5:52 am

... Sorry -- I'm a bit addicted to the Royal We. ;-) What I really meant is that _I_ want to, but it is, of course, open to discussion. -- [ Aaron Swartz |...
Aaron Swartz
aswartz@...
Send Email
Jun 1, 2001
5:59 am

... but we ... GIVE UP ON THIS. Stop attempting to consider anything with RSS in it. The users certainly don't care. The developers will adjust. All this...
Bill Kearney
wkearney99@...
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Jun 1, 2001
4:14 pm

... None of us disagree on this point, at least as far as I know. We're just needing to move forward that doesn't entail simply listening to the loudest voices...
Rael Dornfest
rael@...
Send Email
Jun 1, 2001
4:19 pm

... the past and keep moving forward. Rael, there's an imbalance here. We're still talking about your point of view from August of last year, because of the...
Dave Winer
dave@...
Send Email
Jun 1, 2001
5:09 am

... Those are your rules; I believe the majority here was just glad to find a way forward rather than reopening seemingly unresolveable issues for the ...
Rael Dornfest
rael@...
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Jun 1, 2001
5:22 am

... otherwise. Look, according to the proposal RSS 0.92 becomes something completely different, not called RSS at all, so take it off the table. I think a...
Dave Winer
dave@...
Send Email
Jun 1, 2001
5:18 am

Hi, ... Understood. And what's also understood is that this isn't an RSS 1.0 vs 0.92 issue; it's a matter of non-partisan discussion and decision on whether ...
Rael Dornfest
rael@...
Send Email
Jun 1, 2001
5:32 am

Cool, I'm in favor of civility too. On the other hand, I haven't dismissed anything you've said as being repetitive, so if you want civility, practice it. Dave...
Dave Winer
dave@...
Send Email
Jun 1, 2001
5:28 am

Hey, I suggest we start trying on names ... if we can get some that are catchy, then maybe this wrangling will stop .. and people will walk away happy .. each...
Seth Russell
seth@...
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Jun 1, 2001
5:37 am

Thanks Seth, I think this is quite an interesting direction. How about this for the RDF branch.. SWML. Semantic Web Markup Language. Dave ... From: "Seth...
Dave Winer
dave@...
Send Email
Jun 1, 2001
5:45 am

... Interesting, but a bit too broad. We could probably rename RDF itself that. Perhaps for something like David Galbraith's proposal of embedding metadata in...
Aaron Swartz
aswartz@...
Send Email
Jun 1, 2001
5:50 am

... Doesn't work cause RDF is the Semantic Web Markup Language. How about Semantic Syndication Markup Language SSML Seth...
Seth Russell
seth@...
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Jun 1, 2001
5:52 am
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