RE: [syndication] Re: Thoughts, questions, and issues.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Winer [mailto:dave@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 08:08
>
> So, Aaron, because we disagree you get to make the rules?
Hi Dave,
Your statement (above) works both ways.
IMHO, Aaron even gave an example to illustrate why he thinks that way.
It seems to me that he is trying to reason over that. Not forcing.
Moreover:
- On one hand I fail to see the technical difficulty of parsing both
versions, with and without namespaces;
- On the other hand, I see advantages in many contexts when merging
RSS with other XMLization.
Notice that I am not talking about any specific elements of the draft.
I am only talking about the two general ideas of:
- Allowing to merge RSS data with other data;
- Allowing the OPTIONAL use of namespaces.
If RSS data is EXTENDED without being amputated, I fail to see why a
well built parser has to be much more complex to support that
extensibility or the use of namespaces than to only support the basic
format:
- Is it that complex to detect if the namespace is being used?
- Is it that complex to ignore what is not RSS data?
Making a balance of simplicity, it seems that these general
functionalities, IF WELL DEFINED can:
- Make life much SIMPLER to many people that need it;
- WITHOUT making it any harder on those that do not used them;
- Without making RSS parser implementation much harder;
- Promoting RSS extension instead of RSS replacement, while allowing
the basic RSS data to be extracted from extended one.
... Huh? I don't understand. The RSS 1.0 people have created a new spec, that's open, where everyone can play and add what they wish. You're welcome to play ...
Aaron Swartz
aswartz@...
Aug 16, 2000 6:30 pm
... Hi Dave, Your statement (above) works both ways. IMHO, Aaron even gave an example to illustrate why he thinks that way. It seems to me that he is trying to...
Paulo Gaspar
Paulo.Gaspar@...
Aug 16, 2000 7:17 pm
Aaron, I wrote a whole essay about this just this morning. http://www.egroups.com/message/syndication/386 Dave...
Dave Winer
dave@...
Aug 16, 2000 6:47 pm
... I've read that Dave (and a whole lot more of the history), but I still don't understand. If you're worried that people are all going to go off and create ...
Aaron Swartz
aswartz@...
Aug 16, 2000 7:00 pm
The solution is to create a collegial atmosphere, where if iSyndicate says "this is a good idea" we document it, and make it an optional element in RSS 1.0....
Dave Winer
dave@...
Aug 16, 2000 7:06 pm
... How is this different from the module adoption system that Rael introduced? The only difference I see is that we're using namespaces. My apologies if I...
Aaron Swartz
aswartz@...
Aug 16, 2000 7:10 pm
Aaron: I have an idea. Could you prepare a RSS "1.0" version of this file? http://static.userland.com/gems/backend/sampleRss.xml Let's do an A-B comparison. ...
Dave Winer
dave@...
Aug 16, 2000 7:20 pm
... Sure Dave! It was really easy, because there's an online RSS 0.9 -> 1.0 converter by Jonathan "Not-So-Desperate Perl Hacker" Eisenzopf. :-) ...
Aaron Swartz
aswartz@...
Aug 16, 2000 7:34 pm
... <code snipped> I think the entire idea of namespaces takes a vastly simple and elegant idea and complicates it for what appears to be no real benefit. ...
zac
zac@...
Aug 16, 2000 8:15 pm
... I think there's a misunderstanding here -- the namespaces are only optional additions -- you can completely ignore them if you don't want to parse them, ...
Aaron Swartz
aswartz@...
Aug 16, 2000 8:27 pm
... I'll test it this afternoon to see. ... Kidding aside I think this is a actually a bit of an important point. I would hope that when people look at...
zac
zac@...
Aug 16, 2000 8:55 pm
... I totally agree -- this is a very important point. Many languages have XML parsers but many don't. Sometimes we forget that. Thanks for keeping us on our...
Aaron Swartz
aswartz@...
Aug 16, 2000 9:14 pm
Hi, That's why we spent so much time examining each change for backward compatibility. When I'm not participating in online discussions ;-) I'm hacking code...
Rael Dornfest
rael@...
Aug 16, 2000 9:19 pm
... But Rael, it breaks my regexp: foreach {<item>(.*?)</item>} { <link>.*?</link> <title>.*?</title> etc. } Adding attributes, etc. breaks...
Aaron Swartz
aswartz@...
Aug 16, 2000 9:30 pm
... If there is a substantial "lightweight/no parser" lobby, why XML at all? Surely formalizing some sort of lightweight text format, perhaps name-value pairs...
Dan Lyke
danlyke@...
Aug 17, 2000 3:49 pm
A lot of you have asked me if I could send them the ASP scripts I created to parse RSS feeds into HTML, HDML, and WML. I've now posted them to the web, along...
Tristan Louis
tristan@...
Aug 18, 2000 2:50 am
... You keep talking about "C or Java" yet there are plenty of scripting environments (I already named just three of them) that are *far* easier to use and...
Eric Bohlman
ebohlman@...
Aug 16, 2000 11:17 pm
... I think you're missing the point. ... I was trying to say that people don't necessarily use the same tools that you all do. So talking about some great...
zac
zac@...
Aug 17, 2000 1:59 am
Howdy, No need to do this by hand -- tools abound: ...
Rael Dornfest
rael@...
Aug 16, 2000 7:42 pm
... http://scriptingnews.userland.com/backissues/2000/08/16 Dave, I'll ask you one more time. Can you please tell us what exactly is wrong with the RSS 1.0...
Aaron Swartz
aswartz@...
Aug 16, 2000 8:50 pm
Paulo, the force comes from the choice of the RSS 1.0 name. Doesn't leave much wiggle room. Dave...
Dave Winer
dave@...
Aug 16, 2000 7:23 pm
Well, I am more interested in defending the principles of extensibility and namespace use (WHERE/WHEN NECESSARY) that the draft itself. I am far from knowing...
Paulo Gaspar
Paulo.Gaspar@...
Aug 16, 2000 8:30 pm
... RDF 1.0 is based on RDF 0.9, not 0.91, which had rdf:RDF as the root element -- so it's there for backwards-compatibility. ... Again,...
Aaron Swartz
aswartz@...
Aug 16, 2000 8:39 pm
Let's get it on the Web so other people can have a look. Dave ... From: "Aaron Swartz" <aswartz@...> To: <syndication@egroups.com> Sent: Wednesday,...
Dave Winer
dave@...
Aug 16, 2000 7:36 pm
... Sure thing: http://my.theinfo.org/rss/newversion.xml -- Aaron Swartz |"This information is top security. <http://swartzfam.com/aaron/>| When...
Aaron Swartz
aswartz@...
Aug 16, 2000 7:38 pm
... ... Any RSS 0.9 or 0.91 source may be viewed as RSS 1.0 on-the-fly using Guha's handy-dandy RSS2RDF at: http://purl.org/rss/1.0/convert Rael ... Rael...
Rael Dornfest
rael@...
Aug 16, 2000 7:45 pm
You'll see where I'm going in Radio UserLand. It's not just because the "proposal" is written by geeks for geeks, and that most of the content worth ...
Dave Winer
dave@...
Aug 16, 2000 9:00 pm
Dave, As a fervent admirer and user of Userland's Frontier, I am appalled by your posts to this list. For a guy with a 'flame retardent policy' your tone and ...
Per Kreipke
per@...
Aug 16, 2000 10:12 pm
... I must apologize, I asked Dave to come out and say what he really felt, and he did. I appreciate that. If you don't, don't listen to him. ... Dave never...
Aaron Swartz
aswartz@...
Aug 16, 2000 10:31 pm
I'm a lurker on this list. I'm not a technical person, though I can program well enough for my own purposes in three or four different languages (and don't...