What do people generally do about the sequence of items in an RSS file?
Is it most recent first or last? There's nothing in the standard about
this, and probably shouldn't be.

And what about those RSS feeds that put all the content in the feed,
such as the Radio cloud. Is the RSS file expected to be read top down or
bottom up?

The reason I'm asking is that I'm experimenting with aggregating a
number of feeds into a database and want to read them out last in first
out. It looks as though generally, people are adding new items at the
beginning of the file and expiring old ones off the bottom but I'm
wondering if this is a common convention.

--
Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173  T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time

Julian, speaking for our RSS stuff only..

1. In Manila, the order of the RSS is determined by the order of items on
your home page.

2. In Radio-generated RSS feeds it's most-recent-first, and they scroll off
the bottom, as you describe in this post.

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Julian Bond" <julian@...>
To: <syndication@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 11:46 AM
Subject: [syndication] sequence of items in RSS


> What do people generally do about the sequence of items in an RSS file?
> Is it most recent first or last? There's nothing in the standard about
> this, and probably shouldn't be.
>
> And what about those RSS feeds that put all the content in the feed,
> such as the Radio cloud. Is the RSS file expected to be read top down or
> bottom up?
>
> The reason I'm asking is that I'm experimenting with aggregating a
> number of feeds into a database and want to read them out last in first
> out. It looks as though generally, people are adding new items at the
> beginning of the file and expiring old ones off the bottom but I'm
> wondering if this is a common convention.
>
> --
> Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
> HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
> WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
> WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
> M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173  T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
> ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Howdy,

> From: "Julian Bond" <julian@...>

> > What do people generally do about the sequence of items in an RSS file?
> > Is it most recent first or last? There's nothing in the standard about
> > this, and probably shouldn't be.

From what I've seen, it can go either way.  Putting newest items at the top,
though, seems to a convention of sorts.

> > And what about those RSS feeds that put all the content in the feed,
> > such as the Radio cloud. Is the RSS file expected to be read top down or
> > bottom up?

The tools and libraries I've used (e.g. XML::RSS) tend to parse top down.

Note: In RSS 1.0, order is explicit using an RDF Seq(uence), thusly:

     <items>
       <rdf:Seq>
         <rdf:li resource="http://xml.com/pub/2000/08/09/xslt/xslt.html" />
         <rdf:li resource="http://xml.com/pub/2000/08/09/rdfdb/index.html" />
       </rdf:Seq>
     </items>

This is analagous to the HTML ordered list:

     <ol>
       <li>First</li>
       <li>Second</li>
     </ol>

So, while this still doesn't tell you whether the person is going in
chronological, reverse chronological, or some other order, it does tell you
the order in which they'd prefer the items to appear.

> > The reason I'm asking is that I'm experimenting with aggregating a
> > number of feeds into a database and want to read them out last in first
> > out.

Radio Userland, Meerkat, Manila (using the News feature), et al adopt the
same philosophy.  Amphetadesk, Slashboxes, and the like also read top-down
and seem to assume latest at the top and oldest falling off the bottom.

Hope this helps.

Rael

Http://search.altavista.com/sites/news
Just had a quick look at the Altavista-moreover linkup. IMHO it doesn't
work great.

But, a specialized Google style indexing engine that retrieved and
indexed every page referenced in RSS files, would make a powerful tool.
Especially if you could save the searches and retrieve the results as
RSS.

--
Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173  T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time

> But, a specialized Google style indexing engine that retrieved and
> indexed every page referenced in RSS files, would make a powerful tool.
> Especially if you could save the searches and retrieve the results as
> RSS.

Have you looked at Meerkat?

http://www.oreillynet.com/meerkat/


L.

> But, a specialized Google style indexing engine that retrieved and
> indexed every page referenced in RSS files, would make a powerful tool.
> Especially if you could save the searches and retrieve the results as
> RSS.

Right on. I want this too. We put up such a search engine like this a couple
of years ago, I think it's still running, but it only indexed three sites
this way. A news-oriented search engine is a good idea. The
AltaVista-Moreover partnership announced a few weeks ago is a step in the
right direction, but we all want Google, right, and the news should be
integrated with search results.

It would also be a good first step towards tightening the connection betw
search engines and content management software. Lots more can be done to
optimize this.

Dave

PS: I even have an acronym for these kinds of search engines: JIT-SEs, for
Just-In-Time-Search-Engine.

Julian Bond <julian@...> wrote:

> Especially if you could save the searches and retrieve the results as
> RSS.

Speaking of this, don't forget that Google and others are available using
RSS through Sherch.com. For example, here's Google's RSS channel:

     http://www.sherch.com/~pldms/cgi-bin/Google.rss

And here's a link to the results of a search for "RSS":

     http://www.sherch.com/~pldms/cgi-bin/Google.rss?searchterm=RSS

Just change the term on the end to get the search you want. It supports a
number of search engines, a full list is at:

     http://www.sherch.com/~pldms/cgi-bin/sherch.pl

You can also add more by submitting a Sherlock plugin.

--
[ Aaron Swartz | me@... | http://www.aaronsw.com ]

Version 0.9.6 of Headline Viewer is now available for download at

     http://www.headlineviewer.com

The full feature list can be found at
     http://www.headlineviewer.com/hist_096.html

Newest features:

* Hierarchical Category List.

* Display of newest providers and categories at startup time.

* Category Management - Create your own categories; assign categories
   using drag and drop.

* Searching within all current headlines.

* Arrival Sounds configurable for each provider.

* Improved External Provider loading from the XMLTree service list.

* External Provider loading from the NewsIsFree service list.

* Improved drag and drop integration with Yahoo Groups.

* Improved background updating.

* Compatibility with MSXML3.DLL.

* Bug fixes and performance improvements.

Background Information:

   Headline Viewer displays syndicated news headlines from over 3500
   sources in a clean and organized fashion. Use Headline Viewer as a
   browser accessory, and scan headlines at lightning speed. Double-click
   on any interesting headline to open the full story in your browser.
   The program is fully skinnable and includes many user-settable
   preferences.

Jeff;

Jeff Barr - Vertex Development - (mailto:jeff@...)
   Address:  4610 191st Place NE. Redmond, WA 98074;
   Phone:    Office: 425-868-4919 - Home: 425-836-5624
   IM:       MSN: jeffscottbarr@...; AIM: jeffscottbarr
   Homepage: http://www.vertexdev.com/~jeff
   Resume:   http://www.vertexdev.com/~jeff/real_jb_resume.html

Thought this group might be interested in this Apache module.
I released the first beta for mod_index_rss. It
allows someone to take a directory filled with files
and publish the contents via RSS. This is an Apache
module so its fairly easy to use. Currently I am finding
that XML::RSS is not having any issues parsing
the output, but netscape's validation tool is.
You can find out more info at:
http://tangent.org/mod_index_rss/

	 -Brian

--
_______________________________________________________
Brian Aker, brian@...
Slashdot Senior Developer
Seattle, Washington
http://tangent.org/~brian/
http://slashdot.org/
_______________________________________________________
You can't grep a dead tree.

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http://www.5five.tv/mailorder.htm

For what it's worth, my Search page allows searches of Moreover's headlines
too. You can also choose to search either headlines or keywords within stories,
which AltaVista's doesn't appear to do, and it can search Slashdot and the rest
of the sites in my own database.

http://www.figby.com/search.php

This uses Moreover's custom search feature via RSS. Interestingly, I've found
that their custom search (as with most of their RSS output) ignores the 15-item
limit, hence you can page through about 240 results maximum for a common search
term like "Microsoft".

--
michael moncur   mgm@...   http://www.starlingtech.com/
"The universe is a big place, perhaps the biggest."         -- Kilgore Trout>

There was a discussion here a couple of weeks ago about syndicating non-news
content via RSS. This inspired me to create an RSS feed of Quotes of the Day
from my quotations site, http://www.quotationspage.com/.

I have authors in the <title> field and quotations in the <description> field,
and the <link> field pointing to other quotations by the same author where
possible. Please let me know if there's a better way to format this.

The feeds are here:
http://www.quotationspage.com/data/qotd.rss (Quotes of the Day)
http://www.quotationspage.com/data/mqotd.rss (Motivational Quotes of the Day)

Each day four new quotations are added at the top of the RSS file, which also
includes two previous days for a total of 12 items.

--
michael moncur   mgm@...   http://www.starlingtech.com/
"The universe is a big place, perhaps the biggest."         -- Kilgore Trout

I just checked it out and it works great!  I can't think of any way to
really improve it, work fine like that.

Patrick

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Moncur" <mgm-lists@...>
To: <syndication@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 1:49 AM
Subject: [syndication] Syndicated quotations


> There was a discussion here a couple of weeks ago about syndicating
non-news
> content via RSS. This inspired me to create an RSS feed of Quotes of the
Day
> from my quotations site, http://www.quotationspage.com/.
>
> I have authors in the <title> field and quotations in the <description>
field,
> and the <link> field pointing to other quotations by the same author where
> possible. Please let me know if there's a better way to format this.
>
> The feeds are here:
> http://www.quotationspage.com/data/qotd.rss (Quotes of the Day)
> http://www.quotationspage.com/data/mqotd.rss (Motivational Quotes of the
Day)
>
> Each day four new quotations are added at the top of the RSS file, which
also
> includes two previous days for a total of 12 items.
>
> --
> michael moncur   mgm@...   http://www.starlingtech.com/
> "The universe is a big place, perhaps the biggest."         -- Kilgore
Trout
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

The newest Headline Viewer (www.headlineviewer.com) has a Find feature
which allows interactive searching within the loaded headlines.

Jeff;

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Moncur [mailto:mgm-lists@...]
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 1:45 AM
To: syndication@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [syndication] Re: Searching headlines



For what it's worth, my Search page allows searches of Moreover's headlines
too. You can also choose to search either headlines or keywords within
stories,
which AltaVista's doesn't appear to do, and it can search Slashdot and the
rest
of the sites in my own database.

http://www.figby.com/search.php

This uses Moreover's custom search feature via RSS. Interestingly, I've
found
that their custom search (as with most of their RSS output) ignores the
15-item
limit, hence you can page through about 240 results maximum for a common
search
term like "Microsoft".

--
michael moncur   mgm@...   http://www.starlingtech.com/
"The universe is a big place, perhaps the biggest."         -- Kilgore
Trout>




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I've noticed some feeds entities to put tags within rss feeds while others
just put the tags in.  Which is the proper method?

Example:

<title><i>italic</i> in the title</title>

<title><i>italic</i> in the title</title>

The first method seems most common, and much easer to process, but I noticed
the second form tonight.

Just wondering if I need to re-write my php code to handle the second method
:-)  I hope not because it looks like it's going to be tough to work around.

Patrick
---
"Every weekday morning the school bell cast its glamour over
  the surrounding hills, calling the young to classes.  They came
  running down the slopes and leaping over the streams, out from
  caves and the hollows of trees and suburban tract homes, impelled
  by powers greater then their own to gain an education."
     "The Iron Dragon's Daughter" by Michael Swanwick

Patrick Kellum <webmaster@...> wrote:

> <title><i>italic</i> in the title</title>
>
> <title><i>italic</i> in the title</title>
>
> The first method seems most common, and much easer to process, but I noticed
> the second form tonight.

The first method seems correct, since the second doesn't look like it's
valid RSS.

--
[ Aaron Swartz | me@... | http://www.aaronsw.com ]

This is interesting to me because it is another aspect of a problem
I've run into a lot lately; markup that is processed by an
intermediary (of some form) and then emitted for further processing
by another device, using namespaces for dispatch.

An alternative, to-me intuitive solution is to use namespaces, as in
   <rss:title><html:i>italic</html:i> in the title</rss:title>
so that the rss namespace is dispatched to the intermediary processor
(in this case, the rss client), while the html namespace is given to
the end client (browser).

Unfortunately, this still requires out-of-band knowledge about the
namespaces and who should process them, and the granularity of that
dispatch.

I'm just getting my head around this...



On Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 10:43:32PM -0500, Aaron Swartz wrote:
> Patrick Kellum <webmaster@...> wrote:
>
> > <title><i>italic</i> in the title</title>
> >
> > <title><i>italic</i> in the title</title>
> >
> > The first method seems most common, and much easer to process, but I noticed
> > the second form tonight.
>
> The first method seems correct, since the second doesn't look like it's
> valid RSS.

--
Mark Nottingham
http://www.mnot.net/

That's what I thought, I'll have to fix the author of php-Nuke know about
this.

Thanks,

Patrick

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Swartz" <aswartz@...>
To: <syndication@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 8:43 PM
Subject: [syndication] Re: Question about tags withen tags


> Patrick Kellum <webmaster@...> wrote:
>
> > <title><i>italic</i> in the title</title>
> >
> > <title><i>italic</i> in the title</title>
> >
> > The first method seems most common, and much easer to process, but I
noticed
> > the second form tonight.
>
> The first method seems correct, since the second doesn't look like it's
> valid RSS.
>
> --
> [ Aaron Swartz | me@... | http://www.aaronsw.com ]
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Http://backend.userland.com/rss092
"Further, 0.92 allows entity-encoded HTML in the <description> of an
item, to reflect actual practice by bloggers, who are often proficient
HTML coders."

If you're going to allow <html> in the <description> element, why not
allow it in the <title> element and have done with it.

If the parser in the reader doesn't want to use it, just strip all html
tags.

--
Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173  T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time

Mark Nottingham <mnot@...> wrote:

> An alternative, to-me intuitive solution is to use namespaces, as in
> <rss:title><html:i>italic</html:i> in the title</rss:title>
> so that the rss namespace is dispatched to the intermediary processor
> (in this case, the rss client), while the html namespace is given to
> the end client (browser).
>
> Unfortunately, this still requires out-of-band knowledge about the
> namespaces and who should process them, and the granularity of that
> dispatch.
>
> I'm just getting my head around this...

Yup. It's an interesting issue. So while technically the title elements are
defined as plain text, making all of this stuff speculative, let's indulge
ourselves for a moment here:

If we think of this stuff as layers, with different portions of the
information meant to be processed by different people, we can see it as sort
of unwrapping a package, where each system decodes its part before passing
it on to the next. The problem with this is that it's "dangerous" -- systems
that aren't safe enough to check for strange things (like nasty JavaScript,
or the more mundane blink tag) will end up doing things they don't want.

The alternative is, as you say, namespaces, but the systems need to know how
to deal with them. And, if we're adding new namespaces all the time, the
systems need to be "smart" enough to figure out how to use them
automatically. So, we could put some sort of description file at the
namespace that explained how to deal with it (we could probably break it
down into several classifications) and then have the processor fetch that to
decide how to process it.

Of course, this is all just insane noodling, and it shouldn't be used with
the current RSS, but it's interesting to think about.
--
[ Aaron Swartz | me@... | http://www.aaronsw.com ]

check this out at napster:




dense reverberations

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

the only reference i can find to this right now is on f'dcompany.com,
but apparently isyndicate.com has laid off a bunch of people
and is on the verge of either some sort of deal (acquisition by
screamingmedia.com?) or shutting its doors.

i wonder what lessons there are to be learned from what they've
gone through (and are going through).

jim

Lessons to be learned are probably the same as for other dot coms,

1) balance investments and cashflow projections
2) keep a low profile, new economy players do not need big expensive
corporate offices to impress with their business models, do they? If there
is a new economy at all, it is based on
microeconomic efficiencies
3) become aware of new economy dimensions and dynamics and embed them
in the business model. Dont start off pretending you are time warner, cause
you aren't.
4) huge technology investments should be carefully weighed and backed by
sound plans for returns, before capital is layed out, not after

what else?

paola di maio
content-wire.com





-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Winstead [mailto:jimw-yahoo@...]
Sent: 10 April 2001 18:35
To: syndication@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [syndication] trouble at isyndicate?


the only reference i can find to this right now is on f'dcompany.com,
but apparently isyndicate.com has laid off a bunch of people
and is on the verge of either some sort of deal (acquisition by
screamingmedia.com?) or shutting its doors.

i wonder what lessons there are to be learned from what they've
gone through (and are going through).

jim



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

In article <LOBBKMJLGNGOEFFIOHKCMELFCLAA.editor@...>, Paola
Di Maio <editor@...> writes
>Lessons to be learned are probably the same as for other dot coms,
>
>what else?

Announcements that a company is changing it's business model from
providing a service or content to selling software are the kiss of death
and an early indication that it's going down the tubes. In old economy,
large technology houses the equivalent announcement was "We're focussing
on vertical niche markets". (A cynic writes...)

A discussion about how to make money from content syndication might not
go amiss here. There does seem to be a market for custom tailored news
feeds to corporates for use on intranet and internal research sites. The
chargeable added value is human categorization and editing.

--
Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173  T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time

In article <LOBBKMJLGNGOEFFIOHKCMELFCLAA.editor@...>,
Paola Di Maio <editor@...> writes
>Lessons to be learned are probably the same as for other dot coms,
>
>what else?

In a nutshell, online syndicators seem to be too busy self-serving to
address the needs of their customers.

There are many syndicators that will only aggregate from large
publishers now.  This isn't because the content that smaller
publishers offer is not as valuable.  Speak to the aggregators of
headline content that rely on selling business intelligence products
and they will tell you that regional and niche content is highly
valuable.  It's being ignored by syndicators simply because it is
less convenient to aggregate.

Then we have the syndicators that want to sell you software, which
seems the result of them happening to have it made for themselves
rather than them having designed it for anyone else.

iSyndicate was the only syndicator that had actually bothered with
free content, the average syndicator seems oblivious to the existence
of RSS or the concept of using headlines and other similar content to
drive traffic to websites and promote a brand.  Why, because the
revenue model for them is not as clear-cut.  It wouldn't take much
effort on the part of a syndicator to produce a headline feed for any
existing customer but most of them would laugh at such a suggestion.

I was recently reading up on the McClure Syndicate, set up by Irish
born Samuel Sidney McClure in 1884, which is generally regarded as
America's first profitable literary syndicate.  Whilst making a
profit the McClure's Syndicate was largely responsible for promoting
many American and British writers to the nation including Mark Twain,
Sarah Orne Jewett, Rudyard Kipling and Robert Louis Stevenson.  The
irony is that today's online syndicators have even more options open
to them and could do so much more for publishers, yet I don't think
they would have given any of these writers a look in.

The online syndication industry needs intelligent players and I think
some of these companies need to put the industry cocktail down and
put their thinking caps on:)


With Kindest Regards

Alis Marsden
Purple Pages
http://www.purplepages.ie
e: alis@...
t: + 353 1 4961943
f: + 353 1 4911497

Take a look at this:
  http://netscan.research.microsoft.com/Netscan/Frames/

Especially the cross-post visualization at:
  http://netscan.research.microsoft.com/Start.asp?content=crosspost

Now, attach an RSS feed to a newsgroup and then use this kind of
engine to wander up/down/across the related feeds...

Also from one of my old favorites:
   http://www.theobvious.com/archive.html?thenextusenet

Cool, eh?

-Bill Kearney

Rael, thanks for the info, I finally got some time to work on this
(much later than planned), I have a question about sy:updateBase,
should this be kept upto date (i.e. the last time the rss was
generated), or can it be a static value that is used to work out the
schedule ?

i.e. i have
   <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
   <sy:updateFrequency>3</sy:updateFrequency>
   <sy:updateBase>2001-01-01T01:10:00Z</sy:updateBase>

To indicate that the channel is updated 3 times an hour at 10, 30 & 50
minutes past the hour.

I decided in the end to go with a mix of dc:date and a textual
description of the date (see [1] if you want to see a full sample)

I also decided to split the data into two separate rss files, one for
upcoming events, and one that details newly archived events, does this
make sense (i was having a hard time working out how to do this in a
single file)

If all goes well, this should go live early next week, i'll post the
real URL's when it does.

Thanks
Simon

[1] http://www.4s4c.com/sf/test_live.rss

On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:34:46 -0800, in soap you wrote:

>Howdy,
>
>RSS is perfect for your purposes.  Unfortunately you're right, 0.9x do not
>currently have a per-item date/time element.  It's exactly the problems
>you're encountering (overloading existing title or description elements)
>that led to RSS 1.0's modular extensibility.
>
>RSS 1.0[1] allows you to either supply such information using one of the
>existing modules (Dublin Core[2] seems apropos) or via your own ad hoc
>modular extension.
>
>You could:
>
>  a) Use the Dublin Core "date" element to represent the date
>     of publication or broadcast; there's no restriction against
>     this date being in the future[3].
>
>     <dc:date>2001-01-01T12:00+00:00</dc:date>
>
>     (That's January 1st, 2001 at 12:00 noon GMT.)
>
>or
>
>  b) Create your own ad-hoc extension(s), something like this:
>
>     <broadcast:date>2001-01-01</broadcast:date>
>     <broadcast:time>12:00</broadcast:time>
>
>     if that suits you better.
>
>     The "broadcast" prefix would be associated with a URI representing
>     a namespace for this modular extension thusly:
>
>     xmlns:broadcast="http://me.org/rss/mod_broadcast"
>
>Of course it'd probably be far more useful to make use of a more standard
>extension whenever possible so as to aid interoperability with those
>applications not specifically designed to make use of your ad hoc
>extensions.  Any RSS application understanding and using dc:date would have
>no trouble with a) above.
>
>As an aside, Dave Winer has asked before (can't quite remember where,
>unfortunately) whether or not 0.92[4] should include a date/time element at
>the item level; I'd say so -- I keep seeing it popping up in postings like
>this one and it would also perhaps work nicely with the <enclosure> element
>so as to allow enclosures to be scheduled for some time in the future while
>the URL is already known.
>
>Regards,
>
>Rael
>
>[1] http://purl.org/rss/1.0/
>[2] http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/dc/
>[3] "A date associated with an event in the life cycle of the resource"
>    http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/
>[4] http://backend.userland.com/rss092

>RSS is perfect for your purposes.  Unfortunately you're right, 0.9x do not
>currently have a per-item date/time element.  It's exactly the problems
>you're encountering (overloading existing title or description elements)
>that led to RSS 1.0's modular extensibility.

With all due respect Rael, it's totally possible to do what he wants with
RSS 0.9x.

It's called working together -- something we've been doing a lot of with
Simon and others in SOAP-land.

Dave

Don't know if you're aware of these or not, but just in case -

IETF Calendaring and Scheduling WG:
   http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/calsch-charter.html

W3C RDF Calendar Interest Group list:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2001Apr/0000.html

   The focus of the list is on practical implementation work
   (testbeds, prototypes, collaborative development), although
   theoretical work (eg. on representations for events, time-periods
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   etc) in RDF, XML, DAML etc.

I'm interested in solutions like the sy namespace below, for a
variety of applications (HTTP freshness, P3P policy expiration, etc.)
Did that come from somewhere particular (I didn't see a reference)?

Cheers,


On Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 07:17:33PM -0700, Simon Fell wrote:
> Rael, thanks for the info, I finally got some time to work on this
> (much later than planned), I have a question about sy:updateBase,
> should this be kept upto date (i.e. the last time the rss was
> generated), or can it be a static value that is used to work out the
> schedule ?
>
> i.e. i have
>   <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
>   <sy:updateFrequency>3</sy:updateFrequency>
>   <sy:updateBase>2001-01-01T01:10:00Z</sy:updateBase>
>
> To indicate that the channel is updated 3 times an hour at 10, 30 & 50
> minutes past the hour.
>
> I decided in the end to go with a mix of dc:date and a textual
> description of the date (see [1] if you want to see a full sample)
>
> I also decided to split the data into two separate rss files, one for
> upcoming events, and one that details newly archived events, does this
> make sense (i was having a hard time working out how to do this in a
> single file)
>
> If all goes well, this should go live early next week, i'll post the
> real URL's when it does.
>
> Thanks
> Simon
>
> [1] http://www.4s4c.com/sf/test_live.rss
>
> On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:34:46 -0800, in soap you wrote:
>
> >Howdy,
> >
> >RSS is perfect for your purposes.  Unfortunately you're right, 0.9x do not
> >currently have a per-item date/time element.  It's exactly the problems
> >you're encountering (overloading existing title or description elements)
> >that led to RSS 1.0's modular extensibility.
> >
> >RSS 1.0[1] allows you to either supply such information using one of the
> >existing modules (Dublin Core[2] seems apropos) or via your own ad hoc
> >modular extension.
> >
> >You could:
> >
> >  a) Use the Dublin Core "date" element to represent the date
> >     of publication or broadcast; there's no restriction against
> >     this date being in the future[3].
> >
> >     <dc:date>2001-01-01T12:00+00:00</dc:date>
> >
> >     (That's January 1st, 2001 at 12:00 noon GMT.)
> >
> >or
> >
> >  b) Create your own ad-hoc extension(s), something like this:
> >
> >     <broadcast:date>2001-01-01</broadcast:date>
> >     <broadcast:time>12:00</broadcast:time>
> >
> >     if that suits you better.
> >
> >     The "broadcast" prefix would be associated with a URI representing
> >     a namespace for this modular extension thusly:
> >
> >     xmlns:broadcast="http://me.org/rss/mod_broadcast"
> >
> >Of course it'd probably be far more useful to make use of a more standard
> >extension whenever possible so as to aid interoperability with those
> >applications not specifically designed to make use of your ad hoc
> >extensions.  Any RSS application understanding and using dc:date would have
> >no trouble with a) above.
> >
> >As an aside, Dave Winer has asked before (can't quite remember where,
> >unfortunately) whether or not 0.92[4] should include a date/time element at
> >the item level; I'd say so -- I keep seeing it popping up in postings like
> >this one and it would also perhaps work nicely with the <enclosure> element
> >so as to allow enclosures to be scheduled for some time in the future while
> >the URL is already known.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Rael
> >
> >[1] http://purl.org/rss/1.0/
> >[2] http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/dc/
> >[3] "A date associated with an event in the life cycle of the resource"
> >    http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/
> >[4] http://backend.userland.com/rss092
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--
Mark Nottingham
http://www.mnot.net/

Thanks Mark, i was aware of the RDF list, just joined that last week.
I'll take a look at the IETF stuff, but based on past experience (with
vCalendar), no one implements these specs fully, e.g. vCalendar would
be great if anyone implemented the optional parts (or even implemented
the non-optional parts properly), the same for iCalendar from what
i've seen. This is a pity because it only leaves us with proprietary
expensive solutions like Inteli-sync (for desktop PIM import / sync)
. I'll stop my OT rant now :)

sy:updateBase is from the syndication module for RSS 1.0
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/files/Modules/Standard/mod_syndication.htm\
l

Cheers
Simon

On Sun, 15 Apr 2001 14:35:13 -0700, in soap you wrote:

>
>Don't know if you're aware of these or not, but just in case -
>
>IETF Calendaring and Scheduling WG:
>  http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/calsch-charter.html
>
>W3C RDF Calendar Interest Group list:
>  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2001Apr/0000.html
>
>  The focus of the list is on practical implementation work
>  (testbeds, prototypes, collaborative development), although
>  theoretical work (eg. on representations for events, time-periods
>                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  etc) in RDF, XML, DAML etc.
>
>I'm interested in solutions like the sy namespace below, for a
>variety of applications (HTTP freshness, P3P policy expiration, etc.)
>Did that come from somewhere particular (I didn't see a reference)?
>
>Cheers,
>
>
>On Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 07:17:33PM -0700, Simon Fell wrote:
>> Rael, thanks for the info, I finally got some time to work on this
>> (much later than planned), I have a question about sy:updateBase,
>> should this be kept upto date (i.e. the last time the rss was
>> generated), or can it be a static value that is used to work out the
>> schedule ?
>>
>> i.e. i have
>>   <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
>>   <sy:updateFrequency>3</sy:updateFrequency>
>>   <sy:updateBase>2001-01-01T01:10:00Z</sy:updateBase>
>>
>> To indicate that the channel is updated 3 times an hour at 10, 30 & 50
>> minutes past the hour.
>>
>> I decided in the end to go with a mix of dc:date and a textual
>> description of the date (see [1] if you want to see a full sample)
>>
>> I also decided to split the data into two separate rss files, one for
>> upcoming events, and one that details newly archived events, does this
>> make sense (i was having a hard time working out how to do this in a
>> single file)
>>
>> If all goes well, this should go live early next week, i'll post the
>> real URL's when it does.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Simon
>>
>> [1] http://www.4s4c.com/sf/test_live.rss
>>
>> On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:34:46 -0800, in soap you wrote:
>>
>> >Howdy,
>> >
>> >RSS is perfect for your purposes.  Unfortunately you're right, 0.9x do not
>> >currently have a per-item date/time element.  It's exactly the problems
>> >you're encountering (overloading existing title or description elements)
>> >that led to RSS 1.0's modular extensibility.
>> >
>> >RSS 1.0[1] allows you to either supply such information using one of the
>> >existing modules (Dublin Core[2] seems apropos) or via your own ad hoc
>> >modular extension.
>> >
>> >You could:
>> >
>> >  a) Use the Dublin Core "date" element to represent the date
>> >     of publication or broadcast; there's no restriction against
>> >     this date being in the future[3].
>> >
>> >     <dc:date>2001-01-01T12:00+00:00</dc:date>
>> >
>> >     (That's January 1st, 2001 at 12:00 noon GMT.)
>> >
>> >or
>> >
>> >  b) Create your own ad-hoc extension(s), something like this:
>> >
>> >     <broadcast:date>2001-01-01</broadcast:date>
>> >     <broadcast:time>12:00</broadcast:time>
>> >
>> >     if that suits you better.
>> >
>> >     The "broadcast" prefix would be associated with a URI representing
>> >     a namespace for this modular extension thusly:
>> >
>> >     xmlns:broadcast="http://me.org/rss/mod_broadcast"
>> >
>> >Of course it'd probably be far more useful to make use of a more standard
>> >extension whenever possible so as to aid interoperability with those
>> >applications not specifically designed to make use of your ad hoc
>> >extensions.  Any RSS application understanding and using dc:date would have
>> >no trouble with a) above.
>> >
>> >As an aside, Dave Winer has asked before (can't quite remember where,
>> >unfortunately) whether or not 0.92[4] should include a date/time element at
>> >the item level; I'd say so -- I keep seeing it popping up in postings like
>> >this one and it would also perhaps work nicely with the <enclosure> element
>> >so as to allow enclosures to be scheduled for some time in the future while
>> >the URL is already known.
>> >
>> >Regards,
>> >
>> >Rael
>> >
>> >[1] http://purl.org/rss/1.0/
>> >[2] http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/dc/
>> >[3] "A date associated with an event in the life cycle of the resource"
>> >    http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/
>> >[4] http://backend.userland.com/rss092
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>