I suggested [1] that a module that talked about the feed ordering,
update practices, etc. might be a good thing; is there any interest in
that yet?


1. http://www.mnot.net/rss/channel.html


On Apr 26, 2004, at 12:11 PM, Danny Ayers wrote:

> Mark Fletcher wrote:
>
>> There are no guarantees about how your data will be displayed.
>> Different
>> aggregators do different things. Bloglines, for example, displays
>> items
>> in date order, and allows the user to decide whether to show newest
>> first or oldest first. When we detect a change in an item, we update
>> the
>> date on that item to when we received the change. One of the ideas of
>> aggregation is to let the user control how they view the content.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Quite.
>
> The best you can do, which probably equates to best practices, is be as
> specific, descriptive and accurate as possible. At this point in time
> that probably means using RSS 1.0 along with extensions as needed.
> There
> is no guarantee that all end users will support these, but some will,
> and it at least offers the /potential/ for richer feeds with more
> useful
> information.
>
> Regarding the order, the formats have different interpretations - RSS
> 1.0 does provide an explicit order (but doesn't really say what the
> significance of it is) and if I remember correctly the RSS 2.0 spec
> says
> absolutely nothing about order. So it's hardly surprising that
> different
> implementations work differently.
>
> The Atom project should get this sorted out more usefully (it's already
> been discussed at length) but it will be a few months at least before
> that will be ready for widespread adoption.
>
> Cheers,
> Danny.
>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ----
> Raw
> http://dannyayers.com
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/

At http://www.wfzimmerman.com/article.php?story=20040504132459454

And other flavors of RSS and Atom at http://www.rssfunbook.com .

Nice... Thanks for the tip.

Best regards
Pavel
http://feedz.info/

--- In syndication@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Winer" <dave@u...> wrote:
> http://www.reuters.com/newsrss.jhtml

Gosh!

Google Groups Beta 2 is now a direct competitor to yahoogroups. As well
as Usenet:-
- You can now start mailing lists
- Sub to usenet groups as if they were an email mailing list

And here's the kicker,
- Every group has one or more atom feeds.

http://groups-beta.google.com/
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/about
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/feeds
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/feed/msgs.xml
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/feed/topics.xm
l

Now where's the atom or rss feed from Google news, froogle, images?...

--
Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond at voidstar.com
Webmaster:                 http://www.ecademy.com/
Personal WebLog:          http://www.voidstar.com/
M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173      T: +44 (0)192 0412 433

It's certainly interesting to see how Google is unveiling its syndication
strategy step by step, skipping things that seem obvious to everyone else
but adding things that are pretty cool.    Who's got a good theory on where
this is all going?  Seems to me that gmail is an important piece ... I'd
love to be able to syndicate from within there.

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Bond [mailto:julian_bond@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 7:09 AM
To: syndication@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [syndication] Google Groups and Atom

Gosh!

Google Groups Beta 2 is now a direct competitor to yahoogroups. As well
as Usenet:-
- You can now start mailing lists
- Sub to usenet groups as if they were an email mailing list

And here's the kicker,
- Every group has one or more atom feeds.

http://groups-beta.google.com/
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/about
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/feeds
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/feed/msgs.xml
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/feed/topics.xm
l

Now where's the atom or rss feed from Google news, froogle, images?...

--
Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond at voidstar.com
Webmaster:                 http://www.ecademy.com/
Personal WebLog:          http://www.voidstar.com/
M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173      T: +44 (0)192 0412 433



Yahoo! Groups Links

I just created a group called "Google-syndication-strategy" at

  http://groups-beta.google.com/group/google-syndication-strategy



-----Original Message-----
From: W. Frederick Zimmerman, Tech Fun Books
[mailto:rssfunbook@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 12:07 PM
To: syndication@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [syndication] Google Groups and Atom

It's certainly interesting to see how Google is unveiling its syndication
strategy step by step, skipping things that seem obvious to everyone else
but adding things that are pretty cool.    Who's got a good theory on where
this is all going?  Seems to me that gmail is an important piece ... I'd
love to be able to syndicate from within there.

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Bond [mailto:julian_bond@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 7:09 AM
To: syndication@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [syndication] Google Groups and Atom

Gosh!

Google Groups Beta 2 is now a direct competitor to yahoogroups. As well
as Usenet:-
- You can now start mailing lists
- Sub to usenet groups as if they were an email mailing list

And here's the kicker,
- Every group has one or more atom feeds.

http://groups-beta.google.com/
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/about
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/feeds
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/feed/msgs.xml
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/feed/topics.xm
l

Now where's the atom or rss feed from Google news, froogle, images?...

--
Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond at voidstar.com
Webmaster:                 http://www.ecademy.com/
Personal WebLog:          http://www.voidstar.com/
M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173      T: +44 (0)192 0412 433



Yahoo! Groups Links











Yahoo! Groups Links

A few more comments after testing out Google Groups 2.  There are still some
wrinkles.

1) new groups aren't being promoted into the directory, at least not as
quickly as promised.  I couldn't find any Google mailing lists in the
directory yet -- it's almost all Usenet groups.
2) Google recommends the AmphetaDesk feed reader (see the "Feeds page", e.g
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/GRRM/feeds\)  but AD doesn't support
Atom!  Morbus Iff has no idea why Google singled out AmphetaDesk in this
fashion.
3) The My Groups tab at left sometimes truncates lengthy group names like
"google-syndication-strategy", producing broken URLs like this:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/google-syndi...strategy.

Cheers,
Fred

PS -- I have a few other questions for any Google lurkers...
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Bond [mailto:julian_bond@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 7:09 AM
To: syndication@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [syndication] Google Groups and Atom

Gosh!

Google Groups Beta 2 is now a direct competitor to yahoogroups. As well
as Usenet:-
- You can now start mailing lists
- Sub to usenet groups as if they were an email mailing list

And here's the kicker,
- Every group has one or more atom feeds.

http://groups-beta.google.com/
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/about
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/feeds
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/feed/msgs.xml
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/feed/topics.xm
l

Now where's the atom or rss feed from Google news, froogle, images?...

--
Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond at voidstar.com
Webmaster:                 http://www.ecademy.com/
Personal WebLog:          http://www.voidstar.com/
M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173      T: +44 (0)192 0412 433



Yahoo! Groups Links

Ouch! I pulled a muscle laughing too hard.

Randy
http://www.kbcafe.com

--- In syndication@yahoogroups.com, "W. Frederick Zimmerman, Tech Fun
Books" <rssfunbook@w...> wrote:
> 2) Google recommends the AmphetaDesk feed reader (see the "Feeds
page", e.g http://groups-beta.google.com/group/GRRM/feeds\)  but AD
doesn't support Atom!  Morbus Iff has no idea why Google singled out
AmphetaDesk in this fashion.

"W. Frederick Zimmerman, Tech Fun Books" <rssfunbook@...>
wrote:
>2) Google recommends the AmphetaDesk feed reader (see the "Feeds page", e.g
>http://groups-beta.google.com/group/GRRM/feeds\)  but AD doesn't support
>Atom!  Morbus Iff has no idea why Google singled out AmphetaDesk in this
>fashion.

if ($atom == "a tax on aggregator authors") {
   W3C($atom);
}

;-)

--
Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond at voidstar.com
Webmaster:                 http://www.ecademy.com/
Personal WebLog:          http://www.voidstar.com/
M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173      T: +44 (0)192 0412 433

Dave Winer wrote:
>
> Is there any place for feedback?

http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/

- Sam Ruby

Fixed. Now the recommended ones are:

Online
. Bloglines

Cross Platform
. BottomFeeder
. NewsMonster

Windows
. FeedDemon
. NewsGator

MacOS X
. NetNewsWire


-----Original Message-----
From: Randy Morin [mailto:randy@...]
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 11:26 PM
To: syndication@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [syndication] Re: Google Groups and Atom

Ouch! I pulled a muscle laughing too hard.

Randy
http://www.kbcafe.com

--- In syndication@yahoogroups.com, "W. Frederick Zimmerman, Tech Fun
Books" <rssfunbook@w...> wrote:
> 2) Google recommends the AmphetaDesk feed reader (see the "Feeds
page", e.g http://groups-beta.google.com/group/GRRM/feeds\)  but AD
doesn't support Atom!  Morbus Iff has no idea why Google singled out
AmphetaDesk in this fashion.




Yahoo! Groups Links

On Mon, 17 May 2004 08:22:59 -0400, Dave Winer <dave@...> wrote:
> I'm seeing a fair amount of variety in how
> entry-level content is expressed.
>
> Some feeds have summary's, others have content.
>
> Some content is embedded in a div, others without
> the div.

Look at it one way, and there are a whole bunch of content elements.
An entry can have a summary element, a content element, or both (or
multiple content elements of different types). For either sort of
element, it might have any MIME type, though for an entry level
aggregator you'll probably only be looking for ones that are
text/plain, text/html, and application/xhtml+xml. Then, the mode might
be escaped or (the default) xml, or Ghu forbid, base64.

Look at it the way that's worked best for me so far, parse XML to an
intermediate data structure, and then pick the parts out of that that
I really want, and you just have "what do I do to it?", "what's it
going to be?" and "how much of it?". If the mode is escaped, then your
XML parser (well, maybe not yours, but mine) will have unescaped it
already, and what you get is in the MIME type it says. If the mode is
XML (or there isn't a mode attribute), then the inline XML is already
that type, and you either don't do any unescaping, or if your parser
will have already unescaped and handed you separate elements and
content, you stitch it back together to get that type (they tell me
that makes life wonderful for people using things like XPath, and I
hope some day they'll actually show me rather than tell me). If it's
base64, you undecode it and have the MIME type it claims. Then, if the
type isn't what suits you (they gave you text, you want HTML), convert
it to what you want (run it through your autoparagraphing routine),
and use whichever quantity, summary or content, suits your needs.

You want as much content as you can get, in HTML? Look for a content
element, if there isn't one settle for summary. If it's escaped,
unescape it, if not just grab it. If it's text/plain, autoparagraph
it, if it's text/html throw it in your source as-is after stripping
dangerous stuff, if it's application/xhtml+xml, maybe strip off the
namespace declaration on the outer element and do the same.

> If we're all going to have to parse Atom, as it
> seems we will, wouldn't it make sense to try to get it to be one format, not
> multiple formats?

My outsider's take on the format is that it's a producer's format, and
an end-consumer's format, more than an aggregator author's format. If
you have plain text you want to stick in a feed, you can do that. If
you have well-formed XHTML, you can do that, and what should come out
the other end of the pipe is however that can best be presented on
whatever you are using, cellphone, teletype, or Mozilla. In either
case, the only munging up it's going to get will be the aggregator
author's fault ;)


> Also, I'm making some judgement calls, for
> example, about which date is the pub date. Are there any guidelines? Should
> the creation date be considered the pub date? Or the modification date? Is
there
> the concept of a publication date? If not, why not?

I've never been quite sure what publication date really is, other than
for the New York Times. But, in theory there will always be an issued
and a modified, and issued is pretty much pubDate.

> Is there a list of design goals for Atom somewhere?
> Is kindness to aggregator developers on the list? If not, it should
> be.

Aggregator developers? Those people who won't let me use a
greater-than symbol in my titles, no matter what I do to it? There's
nothing for them but forty lashes, and a strict set of instructions to
behave themselves, and pay attention to what *I* say my content is,
not what they might guess I might have meant.

Phil Ringnalda

Phil, I'm aware of the theoretical variability allowed by the format.

Let's put it another way. Perhaps some developers who claim Atom support can
explain how they support Blogger users?

Hopefully that's not considered a proprietary advantage.

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Ringnalda" <philringnalda@...>
To: <syndication@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: [syndication] Blogger's Atom format(s)??


> On Mon, 17 May 2004 08:22:59 -0400, Dave Winer <dave@...> wrote:
> > I'm seeing a fair amount of variety in how
> > entry-level content is expressed.
> >
> > Some feeds have summary's, others have content.
> >
> > Some content is embedded in a div, others without
> > the div.
>
> Look at it one way, and there are a whole bunch of content elements.
> An entry can have a summary element, a content element, or both (or
> multiple content elements of different types). For either sort of
> element, it might have any MIME type, though for an entry level
> aggregator you'll probably only be looking for ones that are
> text/plain, text/html, and application/xhtml+xml. Then, the mode might
> be escaped or (the default) xml, or Ghu forbid, base64.
>
> Look at it the way that's worked best for me so far, parse XML to an
> intermediate data structure, and then pick the parts out of that that
> I really want, and you just have "what do I do to it?", "what's it
> going to be?" and "how much of it?". If the mode is escaped, then your
> XML parser (well, maybe not yours, but mine) will have unescaped it
> already, and what you get is in the MIME type it says. If the mode is
> XML (or there isn't a mode attribute), then the inline XML is already
> that type, and you either don't do any unescaping, or if your parser
> will have already unescaped and handed you separate elements and
> content, you stitch it back together to get that type (they tell me
> that makes life wonderful for people using things like XPath, and I
> hope some day they'll actually show me rather than tell me). If it's
> base64, you undecode it and have the MIME type it claims. Then, if the
> type isn't what suits you (they gave you text, you want HTML), convert
> it to what you want (run it through your autoparagraphing routine),
> and use whichever quantity, summary or content, suits your needs.
>
> You want as much content as you can get, in HTML? Look for a content
> element, if there isn't one settle for summary. If it's escaped,
> unescape it, if not just grab it. If it's text/plain, autoparagraph
> it, if it's text/html throw it in your source as-is after stripping
> dangerous stuff, if it's application/xhtml+xml, maybe strip off the
> namespace declaration on the outer element and do the same.
>
> > If we're all going to have to parse Atom, as it
> > seems we will, wouldn't it make sense to try to get it to be one format,
not
> > multiple formats?
>
> My outsider's take on the format is that it's a producer's format, and
> an end-consumer's format, more than an aggregator author's format. If
> you have plain text you want to stick in a feed, you can do that. If
> you have well-formed XHTML, you can do that, and what should come out
> the other end of the pipe is however that can best be presented on
> whatever you are using, cellphone, teletype, or Mozilla. In either
> case, the only munging up it's going to get will be the aggregator
> author's fault ;)
>
>
> > Also, I'm making some judgement calls, for
> > example, about which date is the pub date. Are there any guidelines?
Should
> > the creation date be considered the pub date? Or the modification date?
Is there
> > the concept of a publication date? If not, why not?
>
> I've never been quite sure what publication date really is, other than
> for the New York Times. But, in theory there will always be an issued
> and a modified, and issued is pretty much pubDate.
>
> > Is there a list of design goals for Atom somewhere?
> > Is kindness to aggregator developers on the list? If not, it should
> > be.
>
> Aggregator developers? Those people who won't let me use a
> greater-than symbol in my titles, no matter what I do to it? There's
> nothing for them but forty lashes, and a strict set of instructions to
> behave themselves, and pay attention to what *I* say my content is,
> not what they might guess I might have meant.
>
> Phil Ringnalda
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Dave Winer wrote:

> Phil, I'm aware of the theoretical variability allowed by the format.
>
> Let's put it another way. Perhaps some developers who claim Atom support can
> explain how they support Blogger users?

I have begun work on some test suites.  Here is an example:

    http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2004/04/04/Simple-examples

Here are the corresponding feeds:

    http://www.intertwingly.net/stories/2004/04/04/title.rss1
    http://www.intertwingly.net/stories/2004/04/04/title.rss2
    http://www.intertwingly.net/stories/2004/04/04/title.atom

A design goal of Atom is that feed consumers will be able to verify that
they have implemented features (for example, relative URLs), in a
consistent manner.

- Sam Ruby

Dave Winer wrote:

> Also, I'm making some judgement calls, for example, about which date is
> the pub date. Are there any guidelines? Should the creation date be
> considered the pub date? Or the modification date? Is there the concept
> of a publication date? If not, why not?

http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/IssuedElement
http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-atom-format-01.html#rfc.section.4.13\
.7

--
François

Dave Winer wrote:

> "Use our Really Simple Syndication feeds to get TIME.com headlines and
> story descriptions sent to your news reader program — or put them on
> your site."
>
> http://www.time.com/time/sampler/article/0,8599,635219,00.html
>
Thanx a lot!

Added to http://www.xmlfeeds.de/Time-242/

Mark

--
German Gabber Network @ http://www.gabber.de
Infos und Tips zu PHP http://www.php-homepage.de
RSS? RDF? XML? WTF? http://www.xmlfeeds.de

To further assist our users, we have created a discussion forum on Google
Groups where you can exchange information with other Google Search by
Location users. You can access the news group at
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/google-labs-groups2

-----Original Message-----
From: W. Frederick Zimmerman, Tech Fun Books
[mailto:rssfunbook@...]
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 12:10 PM
To: syndication@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [syndication] Re: Google Groups and Atom

Fixed. Now the recommended ones are:

Online
. Bloglines

Cross Platform
. BottomFeeder
. NewsMonster

Windows
. FeedDemon
. NewsGator

MacOS X
. NetNewsWire


-----Original Message-----
From: Randy Morin [mailto:randy@...]
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 11:26 PM
To: syndication@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [syndication] Re: Google Groups and Atom

Ouch! I pulled a muscle laughing too hard.

Randy
http://www.kbcafe.com

--- In syndication@yahoogroups.com, "W. Frederick Zimmerman, Tech Fun
Books" <rssfunbook@w...> wrote:
> 2) Google recommends the AmphetaDesk feed reader (see the "Feeds
page", e.g http://groups-beta.google.com/group/GRRM/feeds\)  but AD
doesn't support Atom!  Morbus Iff has no idea why Google singled out
AmphetaDesk in this fashion.




Yahoo! Groups Links









Yahoo! Groups Links

Sam Ruby wrote:

>I have begun work on some test suites.
>
>
These are very much welcomed, but what isn't clear is (errm) what the
test *is* - what is the required result, what would be considered failure.

Cheers,
Danny.

--

Raw
http://dannyayers.com

Nature Publishing Group has a number of RSS feeds for its
publications. See

http://tinyurl.com/2x7n2

for the complete list.


Peter Scott
http://www.lights.com/weblogs

Hello World,

Syndic8 now collects and reports on the use of gzip compression
by feed suppliers. I have posted lots of info here:

http://www.syndic8.com/weblog/archive/000333.html

The executive summary is that the potential savings from
compression are very high, and that very few feeds
support it right now.

We need to get suppliers and consumers to do more in
this area!

Jeff;
----
Syndic8:
* Blog: http://www.syndic8.com/weblog/
* Featured Feeds: http://www.syndic8.com/box/featured_feeds/
* Orkut: http://www.orkut.com/Community.aspx?cmm=1243

I have added a histogram of the compression ratios, expressed
as a percent of the original size:

http://www.syndic8.com/stats.php?Section=feeds#FeedCompression

I am surprised that no one seems to care about this.
Wouldn't it be great to reduce feed traffic to 1/3 of its
old level? We can help to make that happen.

Jeff;

On Fri, 28 May 2004 21:48:41 -0700, "Jeff Barr" <jeff@...>
said:
> Hello World,
>
> Syndic8 now collects and reports on the use of gzip compression
> by feed suppliers. I have posted lots of info here:
>
> http://www.syndic8.com/weblog/archive/000333.html
>
> The executive summary is that the potential savings from
> compression are very high, and that very few feeds
> support it right now.
>
> We need to get suppliers and consumers to do more in
> this area!
>
> Jeff;
> ----
> Syndic8:
> * Blog: http://www.syndic8.com/weblog/
> * Featured Feeds: http://www.syndic8.com/box/featured_feeds/
> * Orkut: http://www.orkut.com/Community.aspx?cmm=1243
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

We have recently changed the way that AV plays on the BBC Sport site. This means that all links to AV use javascript to ensure they open at the right size etc. For example

<A href="#" onclick='clickmain=window.open("http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/sol/ukfs_sport/hi/av?redirect=fs.stm&nbram=1&bbram=1&nbwm=1&bbwm=1&news=1&nol_storyid=3803639","console","toolbar=0,location=0,status=0,menubar=0,scrollbars=0,resizable=0,width=681,height=487")'>Link to example AV</A>

We would like to provide links to this AV in feeds for NewsReaders. Is there a standard way for including these 'javascript' links in feeds for NewsReaders?

Joel

--
Joel Chippindale, Software Developer, BBC News Online.
Room 1550 White City 201 Wood Lane, London, W12 7TS.