testdrivendevelopment : Message: Good testability makes good design?

Often, I hear that "It's not testable *so* it is not a good design" or
something like that. Can anyone give something to prove the relationship
between "testability" and "good design"? Or something proving it's not the
truth?

--
eagle in the sky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Often, I hear that "It's not testable *so* it is not a good design" or something like that. Can anyone give something to prove the relationship between...

sky eagle
peng_bupt

Nov 24, 2006
2:04 pm

Hello, sky. On Friday, November 24, 2006, at 8:50:26 AM, you ... I might start by observing that if it's not tested, it's a good bet that it doesn't work, and...

Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries

Nov 24, 2006
2:20 pm

Sky, Ron is generally correct. That is to say if we all agree on what testability and good design are. Proof is not something that I have really seen in the...

Jay Flowers
jfl0wers

Nov 24, 2006
2:52 pm

In fact, I thought about this when I had to move the singleton Factory out of the method and made it a member variable yesterday. I found I couldn't mock the...

sky eagle
peng_bupt

Nov 24, 2006
3:38 pm

I'm one of the people that thinks putting Singleton in the book Design Patterns was a bad idea. A singleton is just a global variable hidden inside a class....

Keith Ray
attkeithray

Nov 24, 2006
4:13 pm

... From: "avinap77" <avi_a.at.mapa.co.il@...> To: "testdrivendevelopment@yahoogroups.com" ...

yahoogroups@...
jhrothjr

Nov 30, 2006
3:22 pm

It's worth noting that while singletons are considered evil, the singleton pattern is not. IoC techniques like service locator and dependency injection can...

Brad Wilson
bradw_64

Nov 30, 2006
6:00 pm

I have pretty much abandoned static classes (C#) as much as I can and just create one object that is THE singleton. Downside is having to pass that object...

Jim Bennett
jtbennett77

Nov 30, 2006
8:10 pm

I value reliability and flexibility. Hopefully, testability leads to reliability and flexibility. Let's not take the eye off the ball. Testability is a means...

Anderson, Kelly
kellycoinguy

Dec 1, 2006
3:09 am

Ironic that the meta-class which gives you such power is itself a Singleton... ;-) -Kelly ... From: testdrivendevelopment@yahoogroups.com Notice that...

Anderson, Kelly
kellycoinguy

Dec 2, 2006
6:33 am

... Look up "Design for Testing". Now note that we do the next best thing - "Design BY Testing". -- Phlip http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!...

Phlip
phlipcpp

Nov 24, 2006
2:46 pm

Hi Sky Eagle (if that's your real name), ... The primary benefit of testability is decreasing coupling. To be able to control code at a unit level, you need...

Brandon Byars
brandon.byars

Nov 24, 2006
7:02 pm

... Decreased coupling and increased cohesion are attributes of good design. TDD is a design activity. Testability will improve with practice. GB....

Gary Brown
gb70840

Nov 25, 2006
2:18 am

... or ... relationship ... not the ... able ... from ... design. ... Interesting. In another thread in this forum regarding testability and good design, the...

Jim Cakalic
jim_cakalic

Nov 27, 2006
3:29 pm

Hi Jim, ... In my view, lack of duplication isn't a quality of good design. It's a tactic for achieving good design. It's quite amazing how this one "rule" can...

Charlie Poole
cpoole98370

Nov 27, 2006
6:32 pm

... Yes indeed. I posted my thoughts on my blog and will include them here. http://digerati-illuminatus.blogspot.com/ What makes a good software design? Can...

geoffrey_slinker
geoffrey_sli...

Nov 28, 2006
6:08 pm

Hello Geoffrey, I try not to follow up answers since it usually leads nowhere, but I want to concur and perhaps point to some relevant oldish ideas. Like ... ...

Marcus Widerberg
agileior

Nov 29, 2006
6:14 pm

Marcus, Are you still in bed? Get up! See my comments inserted below. ... It is close, and it should be. Using the code is the only purpose for developing the...

geoffrey_slinker
geoffrey_sli...

Nov 29, 2006
11:17 pm

... Duplication is a quality of bad design. Removing it is thus a tactic for producing good design....

Donald Roby
donalroby

Nov 28, 2006
1:33 am

Hello Sky, ... If we accept that a design is a solution to a problem, and that a good design is a solution that exhibits a certain mix of tradeoffs and design...

Marcus Widerberg
agileior

Nov 28, 2006
2:22 pm

... I value testability. Hence the subject of this thread is a tautology :-) Other good things include readability, comprehensibility, extensibility,...

Alan Baljeu
alanbaljeu

Nov 28, 2006
2:53 pm

Yes see: Benefits of Testability <http://jayflowers.com/WordPress/?p=77> ... -- Jay Flowers ... http://jayflowers.com ... [Non-text portions of this message...

Jay Flowers
jfl0wers

Nov 28, 2006
3:41 pm

... extensibility, changeability, ... testability encourage ... The "-ilities" have long been discussed in software architecture circles. The list can be quite...

Jim Cakalic
jim_cakalic

Nov 28, 2006
3:55 pm

Hi Alan, ... Our activities lead to various -ilities of the code. Some of those -ilities are positively correlated, some negatively, but it's probably...

Charlie Poole
cpoole98370

Nov 28, 2006
8:08 pm

... Precisely! Like you hint, the relationships are often more complex. On a relevant note, describing these relationships in an abstract way is hardly useful,...

Marcus Widerberg
agileior

Nov 29, 2006
4:38 pm

Aha, it's difficult give a define. But as we know there some principles: SRP,DIP,OCP, etc. In fact, the question in the bottom of my mind is: is it worthi...

sky eagle
peng_bupt

Nov 28, 2006
3:18 pm

Hi Sky, ... When a design is difficult to test, that's a smell. You need to figure out where the smell is coming from. You might discover "Ah, this is hard to...

Charlie Poole
cpoole98370

Nov 28, 2006
8:17 pm

Hi Sky (?) ... I know singletons are considered "evil" in the TDD circles, but personally I don't see any problems with it. A singleton is a way of providing...

avinap77

Nov 30, 2006
8:31 am

Avi, yes, I too used this technique recently. I had a singleton embedded in some legacy code that I had to test. So, I added a public setter to the Singleton...

Donaldson, John (GEO)
geo_johnfr

Nov 30, 2006
8:54 am

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