Search the web
Sign In
New User? Sign Up
testdrivendevelopment · Test-driven Development
? Already a member? Sign in to Yahoo!

Yahoo! Groups Tips

Did you know...
Hear how Yahoo! Groups has changed the lives of others. Take me there.

Best of Y! Groups

   Check them out and nominate your group.
Having problems with message search? Fill out this form to ensure your group is one of the first to be migrated to the new message search system.

Messages

  Messages Help
Advanced
Community call to action - Where are all the testers   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #28368 of 32076 |
Re: [TDD] Re: Community call to action - Where are all the testers

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:54 AM, heusserm <matt.heusser@...> wrote:

> Basically, if a tester joined this list, he'd get peeved that you guys
> don't know what "unit test" means, or that you are using "integration
> test" the wrong way -- stuff that really doesn't matter. But by
> having overlapping terminology, we create barriers to real
> communication. Another barrier is the Dev/Testers obsession with
> automation, when many testers view the process as an exploratory and
> learning one, which may use automation to help, but defies
> _comprehensive_ automation.
>

Matt...

These are two points I set out to explicitly address in the materials
Industrial Logic uses to teach TDD.

We call XP's unit tests "microtests", at least in part to sidestep the
tedious and error-prone business of constantly explaining how XP's
unit tests are quite unlike the testing world's unit tests.

As for comprehensive automation, with respect to microtesting, our
material teaches from a different stance than most. We take the
position that the real benefit of extensive microtest-driven
development isn't higher quality at all. Higher quality is a side
effect of TDD. Rather, the benefit and real purpose of TDD as we
teach it is sheer productivity: more function faster. Once having
taken this surprising stance, which grew primarily out of my own
personal experience as a TDD'er, it's remarkable how many of the
traditional arguments/gray areas/theory-driven discussions tend to
resolve themselves.

We've found this to be a very successful way to explain and teach TDD,
and from a more theoretical perspective, a more deeply satisfying
framework for decision-making.

Even if one doesn't buy my case that microtesting is really about
productivity, not quality, I'd love to add more folks to the list of
those who call XP's small xUnit-based tests "microtests" and the
business of writing them "microtesting", and the deep discipline of
writing them first "microtest driven development". Any takers?

Hill
Bring your team to speed on Microtest Driven Development, quick:
<http://www.industriallogic.com/elearning>



Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:35 pm

uly562000
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email

Forward
Message #28368 of 32076 |
Expand Messages Author Sort by Date

Hi everyone, Last night I posted about the community and testers and I wanted to get everyone's thoughts, especially with regard to people who are involved in...
Ben Hall
ben2004uk
Offline Send Email
Jun 10, 2008
11:26 pm

The subject of your post is sort of a question I've been asking (myself) for some time, but with a different meaning. I'm developing an open source project,...
uluhonolulu
Offline Send Email
Jun 11, 2008
6:59 am

I would expect the testers to be interested in the functional domain - whatever your project does - and not interested just because they are testers. So, you...
Donaldson, John (GEO)
geo_johnfr
Offline Send Email
Jun 11, 2008
7:41 am

Thanks, now it seems quite logical to me. My post was emotional rather than rational, just as I said, couldn't resist.. ... - whatever your project does - and...
uluhonolulu
Offline Send Email
Jun 11, 2008
3:07 pm

Besides, it's 2008. You're supposed to yell "Where all my testers at!?" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]...
Tim Ottinger
linux_tim
Online Now Send Email
Jun 11, 2008
11:13 pm

... My Eglish will talk pretty on day.....
uluhonolulu
Offline Send Email
Jun 12, 2008
8:42 am

... Testers mostly have their own communities of practice. For example - Software Quality Engineering (www.sqe.com), Stickyminds.com, Software Test and...
heusserm
Offline Send Email
Jun 11, 2008
12:54 pm

PS - In my last post, I used the phrase "real software testers." I did not mean this as any kind of slight or insult. I am totally excited about devs that use...
heusserm
Offline Send Email
Jun 11, 2008
12:57 pm

... Matt... These are two points I set out to explicitly address in the materials Industrial Logic uses to teach TDD. We call XP's unit tests "microtests", at...
Mike Hill
uly562000
Offline Send Email
Jun 11, 2008
3:35 pm

... How are they different???? A Unit Tests tests a *single* unit ... anything that tests 2 or more units is an integration test. What is a micro test?...
Casey Charlton
caseycharlton69
Offline Send Email
Jun 12, 2008
6:54 am

Casey... On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 2:54 AM, Casey Charlton <casey@...> ... A micro test is an automated test of a very small, hence micro, portion of...
Mike Hill
uly562000
Offline Send Email
Jun 13, 2008
3:13 pm

See - now I'm confused - that is just the definition of a good unit test ... define a unit test which is not therefore a microtest, but which is not also an...
Casey Charlton
caseycharlton69
Offline Send Email
Jun 13, 2008
3:26 pm

Casey, ... As far as terminology goes, I think "unit test" vs "integration test" vs "acceptance test" works fairly well. "Microtest" just sounds weird to me. ...
Matt
maswaffer
Online Now Send Email
Jun 13, 2008
5:27 pm

... Matt... I work with a lot of different groups of people who have never heard of TDD in my normal year-round day job. Many of them believe they know what a...
Mike Hill
uly562000
Offline Send Email
Jun 13, 2008
7:22 pm

... Missed that. I thought microtest was an old guard term. Jeff...
Jeff Langr
jlangr
Offline Send Email
Jun 14, 2008
5:29 am

Mike, ... wrote: <snip/> ... Makes sense. I think the problem space you face as a consultant (?) is entirely different than what I face as a developer. I...
Matt
maswaffer
Online Now Send Email
Jun 15, 2008
10:13 pm

The same test can have different uses in the project. The term to use to describe a test depends on context: which use of the test is being referred to. Some...
Nat Pryce
nat_pryce
Offline Send Email
Jun 13, 2008
8:17 pm

... Well, you've kinda answered your own question by making the good/bad unit test distinction. Some of the attributes I listed would distinguish Test X from...
Mike Hill
uly562000
Offline Send Email
Jun 13, 2008
7:11 pm

Greetings Hill, That's a kickass list. My curiosity makes me wonder: Out of the below list, what varies from the original definition? What *is* the original...
Jeff Langr
jlangr
Offline Send Email
Jun 13, 2008
4:07 pm

... Oh, no, Mike, I have no problem with Unit Tests as described in Kent Beck's original paper, or, for that matter, in his first book or XP:Installed....
heusserm
Offline Send Email
Jun 12, 2008
12:03 pm

... Matt, don't go nuts. The purpose of making that distinction is not to split terminology hairs. The purpose is to segregate such tests from the faster...
George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie
Offline Send Email
Jun 12, 2008
10:47 pm

Hello, Mike. On Wednesday, June 11, 2008, at 11:35:14 AM, you ... I very much agree that this is the real benefit, and I admire your cojones(1) in coming...
Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries
Offline Send Email
Jun 13, 2008
1:53 pm

Ron... For me, making the transition from microtesting-as-quality to microtesting-as-productivity resolved at one stroke a wide variety of nagging doubts I had...
Mike Hill
uly562000
Offline Send Email
Jun 13, 2008
3:23 pm

... Yes, I can see that. I think you have expressed what I've felt right along -- regarding TDD. Down boy. ... Yes, very powerful. And it pushes back against...
Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries
Offline Send Email
Jun 13, 2008
7:39 pm

... From: "Casey Charlton" <casey@...> To: <testdrivendevelopment@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 12:54 AM Subject: Re: [TDD] Re:...
John Roth
jhrothjr
Offline Send Email
Jun 12, 2008
11:58 am

... What trap is that? That it is yet another x driven y? (XAXDY?) ... Regards, --matt Co-Inventor, Bacon Driven Coding: ...
heusserm
Offline Send Email
Jun 12, 2008
12:30 pm

Snowclone in the making? The trap is to put too much weight on the term. "Micro test" is refreshing because it's just another word; it doesn't try to say...
John Roth
jhrothjr
Offline Send Email
Jun 12, 2008
1:12 pm

True. Names are slippery. Years ago I went to a meeting that was attended by a number of testing gurus: James Bach, Brett Prettichord, Cen Kaner, Brian...
mfeathers@...
mfeathers256
Offline Send Email
Jun 13, 2008
9:18 pm

Like you Michael, I will use whatever terms a client uses, whilst trying to nudge them in the right direction ... I recently posted on this with regard to...
Casey Charlton
caseycharlton69
Offline Send Email
Jun 16, 2008
6:42 am

... I can see the point with using word 'microtests' when presenting TDD to a group of developers not used to TDD. That is since "microtest" is an unknown word...
Olof Bjarnason
olof.bjarnason@...
Send Email
Jun 16, 2008
7:07 am
Advanced

Copyright © 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy - Terms of Service - Guidelines - Help