Prompted by my own post, *http://tinyurl.com/3h3ylc *, I see writing a test as mostly a trivial technical task. The problem I see with writing tests, TDD or...
Casey, You say "in such a way that covers all eventualities and paths" - but if you are fairly strict about no-code-before-a-failing-test then your tests will...
Pretend TDD isn't the first step, ie we need to tech someone how to write a test, after we have code ... How do we teach what is a good test and what is a bad...
Then you would use Feather's definition of unit tests (doesn't touch the file system, etc) along with Beck's rules of simple design (first, runs all of the...
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Olof Bjarnason
olof.bjarnason@...
Oct 1, 2008 10:50 am
I think this has more to do with attitudes than anything else. As you said in your blogpost, testing isn't really very technically challenging. But it is...
Hello, Casey. On Wednesday, October 1, 2008, at 4:28:35 AM, you ... Aspiring writers have to write. Aspiring artists have to paint. Most important things...
Hello, Casey. On Wednesday, October 1, 2008, at 5:03:49 AM, you ... A good test is one that advances the capability you're trying to write and that can be...
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Olof Bjarnason
olof.bjarnason@...
Oct 1, 2008 11:46 am
One place to practice is http://sites.google.com/site/tddproblems Anyone interested in collaborating just say so and me or someone else of the admins will add...
Ron I appreciate the point you are making, but the key part here is a fundamental difference between some participants over what is a good test vs a bad test,...
Hello, Casey. On Wednesday, October 1, 2008, at 6:52:56 AM, you ... Two examples would come in handy right about now. But the question is how to teach. I...
To learn, someone must teach - self-tuition is precarious and time consuming ... I have an obvious answer to my own question - pair programming - but many...
Hi Casey, From my experience, the best teaching on TDD always from the root ( why TDD is better than normal coding/design ways). If possible, just let the guys...
Casey Charlton ... I see much of that as tool writers looking for a customer. John Roth...
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Olof Bjarnason
olof.bjarnason@...
Oct 1, 2008 12:47 pm
@Casey, I've felt the same desparation at my work place: "not enough time", "pair-programming are you nuts", "unit tests are for cowards" -- if not literally...
Hello, Casey. On Wednesday, October 1, 2008, at 7:34:41 AM, you ... I think I'd like to deny your major premise, that if someone is to learn someone else must...
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Olof Bjarnason
olof.bjarnason@...
Oct 1, 2008 12:58 pm
... Yeah but I think TDD is a little bit different from learning AbstractFactory, Command or Memento patterns. TDD is more of a method/craft than something you...
... TDD, pattern and refactor is close related, pattern is for elegant solution for specific design problem, refactor is the description of method for moving...
With my idealist hat on, I would agree ... but what if someone sees no value in SOLID, and wants to get people writing unit tests *before* they understand...
I have seen the site, and agree it is a step towards some learning points, but who evaluates the solution for correctness, simplicity and completeness? ...
Ok, that's normal ( i find this trouble as well), just let young guys design and coding, and for the trainer the best is to help him/her fiigure out what's the...
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Olof Bjarnason
olof.bjarnason@...
Oct 1, 2008 1:34 pm
... That is a "craft" which I think is hard to teach.. It is something that has to grow on people. Heck I learn from my mistakes each day. It's nothing...
[Seems I'm a bit addict to this thread, :)] One more killer skill to persuade managers, let him know that the investment DO save money b/c managers just money...
... Generally a good test follows the FIRST principles: Fast (running: a few ms at most) Isolates errors (you don't have to figure out what failed) Repeatable...
... I sometimes talk about "future pain." Why will this non-SOLID design slow down the rate of development in a few months? Why are you going to hate life in...
... I'm an ex-Object Mentor, so I definitely see the value in SOLID, but when you're talking about tests, it's FIRST you're interested in most. I've even found...
Hello, Olof. On Wednesday, October 1, 2008, at 7:58:25 AM, you ... I agree with your conclusion here ... AND I have learned a lot by reading the TDD books,...
I've never seen that acronym before. I like solid code, but SOLID code I don't know. Alan Baljeu http://www.collaborative-systems.org Intelligent software...
