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  • Category: Algorithms
  • Founded: May 19, 1998
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Re: On State Machine Decomposition   Message List  
Reply Message #100 of 14634 |
Re: [theory-edge] On State Machine Decomposition


BTW, caveat: the gsm_superset program written in Perl
mentioned in my post is not debugged very well. the general
idea and structure of the code is correct,
I do believe it can be used to resolve whether some
TMs halt in theory. but I abandoned the code when I realized it
probably couldn't solve the 3n+1 problem. I don't
recommend spending too much time with this code.

however, "iterative exclusion" is an interesting
technique I got to work to resolve some primitive
TM-like computations as either halting or nonhalting.
more information at

http://www8.pair.com/mnajtiv/halt/iterative.html

the code gsm_superset.csh is definitely heavily
tested and gives interesting results described on
this page.

I believe all this is some smaller element of a much
larger theory that I am pursuing intermittently.
there are some odds-and-ends ideas here.

(another caveat: I've noticed some minor incompatibilities
between perl 4 and perl 5 with the code all written in
perl 4. I've never gone back to port the code to perl 5.)

I can see if I'm going to talk to Nico in his own language
I'm going to have to study a lot of my group theory
books!! be patient Nico!! meantime maybe someone here
who knows about group theory can engage in this discussion..
I'm surprised no one else is saying much.

in my last post I talked about Mealy machines. a mealy
machine is a FSM with an output associated with each
input transition. in other words, for an input '0', the
transition function may be (s2,1) where s2 is the next
state and '1' is the output.

the paper talks more about "generalized sequential machines".
this is a machine that allows transitions with an
input string, an output string, and (as I recall) possibly
even nondeterminism. a GSM can be simulated with a mealy
machine that expands out all the strings with extra states,
one state per character in the input and output strings.

Nico, regarding decomposition, this is what you said:

>I want a 'balanced' decomposition into
>a "least-coupled" network of smaller state
>machines, preferably in a cascaded
>fashion (eg. for testing purposes;-) --
>But if not possible, then a
>"cyclic-coupling" pattern possibly (as
>necessary for a simple-group machine: a
>prime machine!).

I think you're on to something here, and I continue to
wonder if this same framework could be used to analyze TMs.
you say you are not too fond of TMs, but you realize FSMs
are not computationally very powerful!! of course if we
can figure out how to convert the GSMs I have been studying
into FSMs you can study..

if you could more formally define this requirement above,
I think it would help. define "balanced", "least
coupled", "cyclic coupling" etc. using mathematical terms.
at your leisure!!



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Thu Jan 1, 1970 6:59 am

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Message #100 of 14634 |
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... It's not only testing that benefits from FSM structure, but especially the "coupling" between components is minimized by cascade decomposition. In fact,...
Nico Benschop
benschop@... Send Email
Aug 30, 1998
9:53 am

Nico, I understand fairly well now what you are doing with the FSMs. the group theory is still a little out of my reach, but the composition of FSMs is...
Vladimir Z. Nuri
vznuri@... Send Email
Aug 31, 1998
4:40 am

... I copied your text on gsm_supersets and will get back to you. Meanwhile: I always forget what's Moore and what's Mealy, so I use a "donkey_bridge": ---...
Nico Benschop
benschop@... Send Email
Aug 31, 1998
6:06 pm

BTW, caveat: the gsm_superset program written in Perl mentioned in my post is not debugged very well. the general idea and structure of the code is correct, I...
Vladimir Z. Nuri
vznuri@... Send Email
Aug 31, 1998
9:19 pm

... Dr. Anil Joshi CA&SI 2004, S. Wright Steet Urbana, IL 61801, USA Phone:217 244 7875 Fax: 217 244 7874 email:joshi@... ... ...
Anil Joshi
joshi@... Send Email
Aug 31, 1998
11:49 pm

<< the paper, again, shows how to convert a TM to a Mealy machine composition sequence. the general idea is that each TM iteration transforms the ID ...
SuperRyan@... Send Email Sep 1, 1998
6:31 am

Ryan, you are totally correct. a mealy machine has the same power as a finite state machine, FSM. I wasn't working with Mealy machines but GSMs. sorry, I...
Vladimir Z. Nuri
vznuri@... Send Email
Sep 1, 1998
9:00 pm

... I have read the section on GSMs in Hopcroft and Ullman... I think that GSMs are still equivalent to finite automata, simply because they have no ...
SuperRyan@... Send Email Sep 2, 1998
8:44 pm

ok Ryan, you are a bit persistent, which I always admire. <g> an intelligent challenge. you read hopcroft & ullman? halleluja. can't ask much more than that....
Vladimir Z. Nuri
vznuri@... Send Email
Sep 3, 1998
7:25 am

BTW ryan, I didn't notice in your post-- you interpreted the way of doing a computation using multiple GSMs, GSM1,GSM2, such that we have a computation like...
Vladimir Z. Nuri
vznuri@... Send Email
Sep 3, 1998
7:28 am

<< you read hopcroft & ullman? halleluja. can't ask much more than that. unless you haven't read any of the url's I've given you. >> I've read pieces of the...
SuperRyan@... Send Email Sep 3, 1998
6:13 pm

uh Ryan, nothing personal, but "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". A mealy machine is not a FSM. mealy and moore machines are FSMs with the notion of an...
Vladimir Z. Nuri
vznuri@... Send Email
Sep 3, 1998
8:55 pm

Hi. I'm new to this mailing list, but the current thread (i.e. mealy machines, Finite state automata, semigroups, Turing machines) is my sort of area of...
peter hines
max003@... Send Email
Sep 4, 1998
10:47 am

In a message dated 98-09-03 16:55:50 EDT, you write: << uh Ryan, nothing personal, but "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". >> Sure. I admit I am new to...
SuperRyan@... Send Email Sep 4, 1998
7:05 pm

... Hi Ryan. Well, I did have some concerns about GSMs and their computational power as claimed in the previous posts, but I patiently read the messages and I...
Stefan Bruda
bruda@... Send Email
Sep 4, 1998
8:05 pm

ryan: I appreciate your posts, don't take it personally. I always thought "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" is just a funny expression. I apply it to...
Vladimir Z. Nuri
vznuri@... Send Email
Sep 4, 1998
9:14 pm

... [...] a lot about existence of a Language & an Automaton recognizing it. ... But I see nothing about optimal implementation & decomposition. Is that to...
Nico Benschop
benschop@... Send Email
Sep 4, 1998
9:03 pm

On Fri, 04 Sep 1998 23:03:05 +0100 Nico Benschop ... Ok. The reference is http://www.bangor.ac.uk/~max003/papers.html and the paper in question is 'The role of...
peter hines
max003@... Send Email
Sep 5, 1998
3:30 pm

Hello again. I said that I'd take a look at the paper on Generalised state machines, etc. I think that most the comments I wanted to make have already been...
peter hines
max003@... Send Email
Sep 14, 1998
2:46 pm

hi Peter, thanks for the msg. nicely written. glad you have no objections. you do question what the point of it all is, though. let my try to "advertise" a...
Vladimir Z. Nuri
vznuri@... Send Email
Sep 15, 1998
2:27 am

... Yeah, just a terminology thing. They are equivalent all right. To me, a Moore machine is a State Machine, with output=state, with no special arrangement to...
Nico Benschop
benschop@... Send Email
Sep 14, 1998
6:08 pm

... Nico B: The text-recognition automaton of this list did it again: cut the bottom part of my posting! (my warning the WebMaster did not help, apparently;-(...
Nico Benschop
benschop@... Send Email
Sep 15, 1998
11:55 am

In a message dated 98-09-14 10:46:33 EDT, you write: << I won't attempt to prove it directly, but to answer the point about finite storage: >> After thinking...
SuperRyan@... Send Email Sep 14, 1998
8:34 pm

On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:08:04 +0100 Nico Benschop ... Hi, Nico. I'm not sure if it's the same thing, or not (terminology again). What I understand by automatic...
peter hines
max003@... Send Email
Sep 26, 1998
3:45 pm

... True: an FSM does not get more powerfull in the math sense by decomposing it. I am working in industry, so my first priority is: for all practical purposes...
Nico Benschop
benschop@... Send Email
Sep 1, 1998
6:47 am

Nico: I went through your paper pretty thoroughly. I studied my good group theory book. for anyone looking, there is a great book for beginners on group theory...
Vladimir Z. Nuri
vznuri@... Send Email
Sep 1, 1998
9:12 pm

... Right, I used the "function" for a mapping a: Q --> Q and the concept of function composition ab: Q --> Q to denote what you get after composing (qa)b =...
Nico Benschop
benschop@... Send Email
Sep 1, 1998
10:40 pm

Nico: I enjoy ET Bell a lot too. one of my favorite math writers. very opinionated. readers should consider the books "Men of Mathematics" and "The Last...
Vladimir Z. Nuri
vznuri@... Send Email
Sep 1, 1998
11:06 pm
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