monz wrote:
> Hi Herman,
>
>
> --- In tonescape_denhaag@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@...>
> wrote:
>
>> monz wrote:
>>
>>> * Time Signature (the default is "4/4 Rock"). We have
>>> included a large number of different Time Signatures in
>>> a drop-down list, with accent patterns utilizing volume
>>> and tempo changes already built in.
>> Nice! Will these be programmable? Could I set up a
>> repeating pattern with 2 bars of 7 against 5 followed by
>> one bar of 11 against 8? :-)
>>
>> http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/bug9.mp3
>
>
> I'm pretty good at hearing complex meters, and can hear
> the 7+7+11 in this in this short piece (which i really
> like BTW -- sounds to me kind of like a steel-drum band
> which got drunk *and* took speed! ;-) ). By "against",
> do you mean some sort of tuplet configuration?

Essentially one percussionist playing in 7+7+11 while another one plays
a different rhythm in 5+5+8 (with very slight changes in tempo so that
they both start at the same time). Another one of these bug temperament
sketches that I have (in a similarly early state of development) has a
meter of 4 + 2/3 beats per measure!

> However, if you (or anyone else) desires to use a particular
> Time Signature which is not in Tonescape's built-in list,
> simply let me know and i'll be able to set up a file for you
> with that Time Signature included.

It wouldn't be worth the trouble for a rhythmic pattern that I'll
probably only use once. But if you had some kind of hand-editable file
for these (something that could be edited in Notepad), even if you don't
have a nice GUI for editing them inside Tonescape, I'd probably get some
use out of it. I just thought it was a pretty cool feature already to
have built-in preset rhythmic patterns more than just quantizing to the
nearest 16th note (as in a typical MIDI editor).

Hi Herman,


--- In tonescape_denhaag@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@...>
wrote:

> monz wrote:
>
> > * Time Signature (the default is "4/4 Rock"). We have
> > included a large number of different Time Signatures in
> > a drop-down list, with accent patterns utilizing volume
> > and tempo changes already built in.
>
> Nice! Will these be programmable? Could I set up a
> repeating pattern with 2 bars of 7 against 5 followed by
> one bar of 11 against 8? :-)
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/bug9.mp3


I'm pretty good at hearing complex meters, and can hear
the 7+7+11 in this in this short piece (which i really
like BTW -- sounds to me kind of like a steel-drum band
which got drunk *and* took speed! ;-) ). By "against",
do you mean some sort of tuplet configuration?

Anyway, our plan for Tonescape eventually is to have a
Time Signature editor dialog-box, which will allow you
to construct any kind of metrical pattern you want.
But with development stalled as it is right now, that's
certainly a long way off.

For now, we've simply supplied a long list of time-signatures:
(as usual with Windows, the ones from 10 to 19 should come
after 9 but instead are "alphabetized" to come after "1")

1: Neutral
10: 2+2+3+3 as 4+6
10: 2+3+2+3 as 5+5
10: 2+3+3+2 as 5+5
10: 3+2+2+3 as 7+3
10: 3+2+3+2 as 5+5
10: 3+3+2+2 as 6+4, Mission Impossible
10: Neutral
11: 2+2+2+2+3 as 6+5
11: 2+2+2+2+3 as 8+3
11: 2+2+2+3+2 as 4+7
11: 2+2+2+3+2 as 6+5
11: 2+2+3+2+2 as 4+7
11: 2+2+3+2+2 as 7+4
11: 2+3+2+2+2 as 5+6
11: 2+3+2+2+2 as 7+4
11: 2+3+3+3 as 5+6
11: 2+3+3+3 as 8+3
11: 3+2+2+2+2 as 3+8
11: 3+2+2+2+2 as 5+6
11: 3+2+2+2+2 as 7+4
11: 3+2+3+3 as 5+6
11: 3+2+3+3 as 8+3
11: 3+3+2+3 as 6+5
11: 3+3+2+3 as 8+3
11: 3+3+3+2 as 6+5
11: 3+3+3+2 as 9+2
11: Neutral
12: 3+3+3+3, Standard
12: Neutral
13: 3+2+2+3+3 as 7+6
13: 3+3+3+2+2 as 6+7
13: 3+3+3+2+2 as 9+4
13: Neutral
14: 4+3+3+4, Monzo - Bulgaria Unlimited
14: Neutral
15: 3*5 as 6+9
15: 3*5 as 9+6
15: Neutral
16: 3+3+4+2+4, Bo Diddley
16: 3+3+6+4, Mellow Bo Diddley
16: Neutral
17: 8+9
17: 9+8
17: Neutral
18: 8+4+6
18: Neutral
19: (4*4)+3
19: Neutral
2: Heavy 1
2: Neutral
3: Heavy 1
3: Neutral
3: Viennese Waltz
4: Funeral March
4: Heavy 1
4: Neutral
4: Rock
5: 2+3
5: 3+2
5: Neutral
6: 2+2+2, 3-beat
6: 3+3, Standard
6: Neutral
7: 2+3+2
7: 3+4
7: 4+3
7: Neutral
8: 2+3+3
8: 3+2+3
8: 3+3+2, half Bo Diddley
8: Neutral
9: 2+2+2+3 as 6+3, Brubeck
9: 2+2+3+2 as 4+5
9: 2+3+2+2 as 5+4
9: 3+2+2+2 as 5+4
9: 3+3+3 Standard
9: Neutral


Even this is a far from exhaustive list, but it does
provide a good selection of built-in accent patterns,
especially considering how many users will probably
stick with "4: Rock", "4: Heavy 1", "6: 3+3 Standard",
etc. But i personally happen to really like crazy meters.
:-P


> I'd like to finish this someday, but the rhythms are so
> tedious to set up by hand. (I actually used the Event List
> and a pocket calculator...)
> But I don't suppose many composers will want to use this
> particular rhythm....

I actually created an Excel spreadsheet to figure out
the tempo and volume changes needed for these accent
patterns. Since the spreadsheet is already set up, it
would be easy to continue making the list longer ... but
as i said, it's not likely that the Time Signature features
of Tonescape are going to be updated any time soon.

However, if you (or anyone else) desires to use a particular
Time Signature which is not in Tonescape's built-in list,
simply let me know and i'll be able to set up a file for you
with that Time Signature included.


-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

monz wrote:

> * Time Signature (the default is "4/4 Rock"). We have
> included a large number of different Time Signatures in
> a drop-down list, with accent patterns utilizing volume
> and tempo changes already built in.

Nice! Will these be programmable? Could I set up a repeating pattern
with 2 bars of 7 against 5 followed by one bar of 11 against 8? :-)

http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/bug9.mp3

I'd like to finish this someday, but the rhythms are so tedious to set
up by hand. (I actually used the Event List and a pocket calculator...)
But I don't suppose many composers will want to use this particular
rhythm....

--- In tonescape_denhaag@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <joemonz@...> wrote:

> <snip>
>
> Tonescape has two different volume settings, which
> both look exactly the same and are edited in exactly
> the same way:
>
> 1) One which affects all Parts in the entire score
> simultaneously. This makes it easy to, for example,
> build a big full-orchestra crescendo.
>
> 2) One for each individual part.
>
> <snip>
>
> When you right-click on the Conductor View background
> and select "Show Modifiers Entire Piece" from the drop-down
> menu, then you can see the volume setting which affects
> all parts simultaneously. Again, it appears as a pink
> horizontal line. Here you'll also see a grey horizontal
> line which represents tempo, and it can be edited in
> exactly the same way as the volume line.


Two things to add about the "Show Modifiers Entire Piece"
volume:

1) The default value is 1.00 -- that is, maximum volume
for all Parts.

2) To date, i have not yet changed the "Entire Piece"
volume setting on any of the Tonescape files i've created.
I find that when a good composer wants a crescendo in
the whole orchestra, he *orchestrates it in*! In other
words, the creative addition and use of instruments
augments the sound automatically.


For a good example of how i've used Tonescape's volume
settings, take a look at the Beethoven "Cavatina" which
comes bundled as one of the sample Pieces.


-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

Hi Tristan,


--- In tonescape_denhaag@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
> I've almost finished an actual piece, and this one even plays!


Awesome! I can't wait to hear it!

(BTW, Chris is back from his vacation and is working
on getting your "sketchin300" piece to play.)


> It sounds pretty bad right now, though, because the
> French horn is the same volume as the flute. I broke
> the program last time I tried to add dynamics, so can
> you walk me through it?


Sure, no problem.
I'd appreciate it if you would describe how you
"broke the program" before.


Anyway, here's the deal on dynamics:

Tonescape has two different volume settings, which
both look exactly the same and are edited in exactly
the same way:

1) One which affects all Parts in the entire score
simultaneously. This makes it easy to, for example,
build a big full-orchestra crescendo.

2) One for each individual part.


Both volume settings appear as pink lines going
horizontally across the Conductor View. In their
default settings, volume is set at one level for
the entire Section, so it looks like one long pink
horizontal line.

The second one (individual part volume) is what
appears by default when you open the Conductor View.


You'll also see other settings in the Conductor View
for each Part, each of which can be edited by right-clicking
on the little black square next to the label:

* Spatialization, which is a square box in which you
can place the Part in 2-dimensional space (left/right
and front/back) -- however, so far Tonescape only has
regular stereo separation, so only the left/right placement
will have any effect. Eventually, Tonescape will have
full 3-D spatialization, including up/down as well.

* Time Signature (the default is "4/4 Rock"). We have
included a large number of different Time Signatures in
a drop-down list, with accent patterns utilizing volume
and tempo changes already built in.

* Phrasing. The default is "Normal", which leaves a bit
of silence between notes; other choices are "Tenuto"
which leaves only a very small silence between notes,
"Legato" which leaves no space, and "Staccato" which
makes each note's actual duration only half of what is
notated. NOTE: i used to use this a lot, but phrasing
can also be applied to individual notes by right-clicking
on the note, selecting "Set" from the pop-up menu,
then selecting "Phrasing" and then choosing which type
you want from the sub-menu. I save the Conductor View
Phrasing for the main type of phrasing which should be
in effect for most notes of a Section or Piece.


When you right-click on the Conductor View background
and select "Show Modifiers Entire Piece" from the drop-down
menu, then you can see the volume setting which affects
all parts simultaneously. Again, it appears as a pink
horizontal line. Here you'll also see a grey horizontal
line which represents tempo, and it can be edited in
exactly the same way as the volume line.


Before i describe how to use them, you'll probably
want to invoke the "Show Tips" command from the "Compose"
menu. When "Show Tips" is checked (with the little red
sphere which Tonescape uses to show enabled menu choices),
a rectangular "balloon" appears at the cursor when you
mouse-over anywhere on the Musical Piece window. The
information shown is context-sensitive, depending on
whether you are mousing over the Outline View, the
Conductor View, or the Pitch-Height View.

The "Show Tips" balloon gives you loads of information
for each thing you mouse over, especially notes in the
Pitch-Height score (i.e.: "Ratio" gives the "monzo" which
shows the position of the note on the Lattice, "Cents" is
the value of the tuning of the note, etc.). It's very useful
-- however, you'll probably find that after a while it
becomes annoying. So we have it turned off by default, but
it's a simple matter to turn it on and off from the "Compose"
menu as needed.


So if you have "Show Tips" enabled, when you mouse over
one of the pink volume lines, you'll see exactly what the
volume setting is. The "Loudness" data goes from 0.00
(silent) to 1.00 (as loud as possible), so all volume
settings are between zero and one. The "Range" data shows
the beats over which that Loudness setting is in effect,
and is based on how many quarter-notes and their divisions
are involved.

To change the Loudness, simply grab the pink line with
the mouse and drag it to where you want it. If all you
want to do is adjust the relative volumes of the
French Horn and Flute, that's simple: just drag the
French Horn's volume line down a little.


Of course the real power comes from subtle control of
Loudness over short periods of time, which allows you
to truly shape the dynamics of the music. The Range over
which you can change the Loudness (or the Tempo, in the
"Show Modifiers Entire Piece" view) is determined by
the "Snap Mouse to ..." settings, which you find by
right-clicking anywhere in the Musical Piece window
and selecting from the drop-down menu.

There are three separate "Snap Mouse to ..." choices,
which lead to simple sub-menus for the regular and
dotted notes, and to a more intricate dialog box for
the Tuplets choice. The default snap setting (whenever
you open Tonescape) is "Snap Mouse to Note > Quarter Note".
Snap settings can be changed at any time while working
on a piece, and are not saved with the file, they have
only a real-time effect. (If you have questions about
the Tuplet dialog, i'll be happy to explain it.)

To change a small piece of a Loudness or Tempo, you
hold the "Ctrl" key and grab the section of the horizontal
line which you want to move, then drag it to where you
want it. If, for example, you leave the snap setting on
"Quarter Note", then you can change volume or tempo in
quarter-note-sized pieces. If you want more subtle control,
change the Snap Setting to something smaller.


-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

I've almost finished an actual piece, and this one even plays! It
sounds pretty bad right now, though, because the French horn is the
same volume as the flute. I broke the program last time I tried to add
dynamics, so can you walk me through it?

--Tristan
http://dolor-sit-amet.deviantart.com

monz wrote:
> Hi Herman,
>
>
> --- In tonescape_denhaag@yahoogroups.com, "teamousechanezumi"
> <hmiller@...> wrote:
>> The good news is I got Tonescape to install successfully on my new
>> Gateway laptop (Windows Vista, Intel Core 2 Duo). Unfortunately, when
>> I try to launch it, I get the following message:
>>
>> Application has generated an exception that could not be handled.
>>
>> Process id=0x9d0 (2512), Thread id=0x814 (2068).
>>
>> Click OK to terminate the application.
>> Click CANCEL to debug the application.
>>
>> Are there any other versions of the executable I could test out?
>
>
> No, there are no other versions of the Den Haag executable,
> unless Chris has one that i don't know about. He'll be home
> from a vacation on Monday, and hopefully he can help then.
>
> Sorry you had the problem, and thanks for trying Tonescape.
> Did it do this again after you rebooted?

I've tried it again a couple of times, and I still get the exception. It
could be something specific to Vista, or something related to the
dual-core processor. Does Tonescape write out any kind of a log file or
other data?

Hi Herman,


--- In tonescape_denhaag@yahoogroups.com, "teamousechanezumi"
<hmiller@...> wrote:
>
> The good news is I got Tonescape to install successfully on my new
> Gateway laptop (Windows Vista, Intel Core 2 Duo). Unfortunately, when
> I try to launch it, I get the following message:
>
> Application has generated an exception that could not be handled.
>
> Process id=0x9d0 (2512), Thread id=0x814 (2068).
>
> Click OK to terminate the application.
> Click CANCEL to debug the application.
>
> Are there any other versions of the executable I could test out?


No, there are no other versions of the Den Haag executable,
unless Chris has one that i don't know about. He'll be home
from a vacation on Monday, and hopefully he can help then.

Sorry you had the problem, and thanks for trying Tonescape.
Did it do this again after you rebooted?


-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

The good news is I got Tonescape to install successfully on my new
Gateway laptop (Windows Vista, Intel Core 2 Duo). Unfortunately, when
I try to launch it, I get the following message:

Application has generated an exception that could not be handled.

Process id=0x9d0 (2512), Thread id=0x814 (2068).

Click OK to terminate the application.
Click CANCEL to debug the application.

Are there any other versions of the executable I could test out?

Hi Tristan,


--- In tonescape_denhaag@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
> http://rozencrantz.googlepages.com/Sketchin300.tonescape
>
> Here it is, in all its glory. This piece revealed to me one of
> the benefits of the lattice system: I can tell at a glance if
> I need to move individual notes up or down a comma after I've
> transposed a melody to a different key. I also figured out how
> to deselect a block of notes. It's nice to have something I
> can bang around inside of without worrying about breaking it.


Chris (Tonalsoft's programmer) is away on a vacation
right now. He'll look into why your file won't play when
he gets back next week.



-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

http://rozencrantz.googlepages.com/Sketchin300.tonescape

Here it is, in all its glory. This piece revealed to me one of the
benefits of the lattice system: I can tell at a glance if I need to
move individual notes up or down a comma after I've transposed a
melody to a different key. I also figured out how to deselect a block
of notes. It's nice to have something I can bang around inside of
without worrying about breaking it.

On 3/13/07, monz <joemonz@...> wrote:

> I have made .tonescape Musical Piece files which utilize
> different Sections, and they played fine. But i haven't
> used the Sections feature much yet, so i'll have to hunt
> around for an example.
>
> One problem that i personally have is that i've created
> Tonescape files in several different versions of Tonescape
> during the course of its evolution, and those versions
> are not always 100% backwards-compatible. But sometimes
> when i compare a file from an older version which doesn't
> work in the Den Haag version, with a newer file which
> works fine, i don't see anything different, so i can't
> tell how to edit the older file to make it work. It
> usually requires an in-depth review with Chris so that
> together we can hunt down what's not working ... Tonescape
> at this stage is now a very complex program.
>
> If you would post the newer version of your piece,
> i can put it under the microscope and try fix it.
>
>
> -monz
> http://tonalsoft.com
> Tonescape microtonal music software

--Tristan
http://dolor-sit-amet.deviantart.com

Hi Tristan,


--- In tonescape_denhaag@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
> I moved the sections so that they no longer overlap, and
> while I was doing that I found out that I had never put
> in the third voice, so I did that too. It still won't play,
> so I'm not going to send it just yet. Do you have a working
> example of a piece with sections, or could it be a bug in
> the way they are implemented?


I have made .tonescape Musical Piece files which utilize
different Sections, and they played fine. But i haven't
used the Sections feature much yet, so i'll have to hunt
around for an example.

One problem that i personally have is that i've created
Tonescape files in several different versions of Tonescape
during the course of its evolution, and those versions
are not always 100% backwards-compatible. But sometimes
when i compare a file from an older version which doesn't
work in the Den Haag version, with a newer file which
works fine, i don't see anything different, so i can't
tell how to edit the older file to make it work. It
usually requires an in-depth review with Chris so that
together we can hunt down what's not working ... Tonescape
at this stage is now a very complex program.

If you would post the newer version of your piece,
i can put it under the microscope and try fix it.


-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

I moved the sections so that they no longer overlap, and while I was
doing that I found out that I had never put in the third voice, so I
did that too. It still won't play, so I'm not going to send it just
yet. Do you have a working example of a piece with sections, or could
it be a bug in the way they are implemented?

--Tristan
http://dolor-sit-amet.deviantart.com

--- In tonescape_denhaag@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <joemonz@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Tristan,
>
>
> The problem is almost certainly being cause by
> the overlapping of Sections. Tonescape is designed
> to use Sections in its Outline View in the same way
> that one might block out a piece on paper before
> composing the details, but they're not supposed to
> overlap.


Actually, it might be possible for us to change that
without too much trouble. It makes sense to me that
Sections should be able to overlap. I'll look into it
and report back.

But if you can still create another version of your
piece without the overlap, that would be nice, because
i want to hear it. ;-)


-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

Hi Herman,


I'm flattered that you are basing your purchase of a
laptop at least in part on Tonescape's hardware requirements.
And yes, you're right to ask ahead of time because of the
inability to swap out laptop video cards. (My own laptop
is 10 years old and doesn't meet the video card requirements,
so Tonescape won't even install on it, even tho it runs Win XP.)

Tonescape's hardware requirements are spelled out here:

http://tonalsoft.com/support/tonescape/knowledge.aspx


I'm not sure what to say about chip requirements. The older
Mustang version runs fine on my Win 2000 system, which has
either a Celeron or Athlon chip (i can't remember which and
i'm not on that computer right now), but the current Den Haag
version won't run on Win 2000 so i can't try it out on that
system.

My guess is that most (if not all) video cards produced since
about 2003 should work OK. Tonescape is a very graphics
intensive application, and the more you invest in a good
video card the better it will run. Base your hardware
purchase on the same kind of system you would use if you
were a heavy gamer.

As for sound hardware, Tonescape still does not do most
of the high-end sound production that we eventually want
it to do, so basically you'll be working with General MIDI.
So i don't think you have to do much there beyond having
a decent soundcard.

I'll ask Chris (my Tonalsoft partner and the Tonescape
architect and programmer) to take a look at your post and
see if he can shed any light before you buy.

I'm looking forward to you joining the ranks of Tonescape
users! ... and very much looking forward to the .tonescape
pieces you'll compose!


-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software


--- In tonescape_denhaag@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@...>
wrote:
>
> I'm getting ready to buy a new laptop, and I'd like to
> try out Tonescape, but I know it has particular requirements
> for graphics and sound hardware and other system requirements.
> I'm assuming that probably anything sold these days that can
> run Vista should be powerful enough, but whether the built-in
> sound and graphics hardware can meet the system requirements
> is something that I can't easily figure out just by looking
> at the crude feature lists in a store that sells laptops.
> The problem with laptops is I can't just swap out a sound
> or graphics card with something better if it doesn't work.
> Is there anything in particular I should look for? Does it
> need to be a Pentium or would an Intel Core Duo or something
> from AMD work just as well? What kinds of video and sound
> hardware should I look for?

Hi Tristan,


The problem is almost certainly being cause by
the overlapping of Sections. Tonescape is designed
to use Sections in its Outline View in the same way
that one might block out a piece on paper before
composing the details, but they're not supposed to
overlap.

I was going to open the piece up and try to edit it
so that the Sections don't overlap, but it would be
best if you could do that and repost it.


-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software



--- In tonescape_denhaag@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
> I have the same problem on my end, I thought it was a problem with my
> computer, though. I don't know what I could have done to it: it was
> playing fine until I saved/closed it last time I worked on it.
>
> The overlapping sections are the only unorthodox thing I remember
> doing, could that be causing the problem?
>
> On 3/12/07, monz <joemonz@...> wrote:
> > Hi Tristan,
> >
> >
> > I'm glad to see a piece composed in Tonescape by
> > someone who's not part of Tonalsoft. ;-)
> >
> > I downloaded your piece, but when i tried to play
> > it i got an error dialog from Tonescape. I've tried
> > many times, always with the same result. Does this
> > file play OK for you?
> >
> > I'm thinking that perhaps you made an alteration to
> > the file before posting it, and now that alteration
> > is causing it to crash. If it plays OK on your end,
> > then we need to investigate what's going wrong.
> >
> >
> > -monz
> > http://tonalsoft.com
> > Tonescape microtonal music software
>
> --Tristan
> http://dolor-sit-amet.deviantart.com
>

I'm getting ready to buy a new laptop, and I'd like to try out
Tonescape, but I know it has particular requirements for graphics and
sound hardware and other system requirements. I'm assuming that probably
anything sold these days that can run Vista should be powerful enough,
but whether the built-in sound and graphics hardware can meet the system
requirements is something that I can't easily figure out just by looking
at the crude feature lists in a store that sells laptops. The problem
with laptops is I can't just swap out a sound or graphics card with
something better if it doesn't work. Is there anything in particular I
should look for? Does it need to be a Pentium or would an Intel Core Duo
or something from AMD work just as well? What kinds of video and sound
hardware should I look for?

I have the same problem on my end, I thought it was a problem with my
computer, though. I don't know what I could have done to it: it was
playing fine until I saved/closed it last time I worked on it.

The overlapping sections are the only unorthodox thing I remember
doing, could that be causing the problem?

On 3/12/07, monz <joemonz@...> wrote:
> Hi Tristan,
>
>
> I'm glad to see a piece composed in Tonescape by
> someone who's not part of Tonalsoft. ;-)
>
> I downloaded your piece, but when i tried to play
> it i got an error dialog from Tonescape. I've tried
> many times, always with the same result. Does this
> file play OK for you?
>
> I'm thinking that perhaps you made an alteration to
> the file before posting it, and now that alteration
> is causing it to crash. If it plays OK on your end,
> then we need to investigate what's going wrong.
>
>
> -monz
> http://tonalsoft.com
> Tonescape microtonal music software

--Tristan
http://dolor-sit-amet.deviantart.com

Hi Tristan,


I'm glad to see a piece composed in Tonescape by
someone who's not part of Tonalsoft. ;-)

I downloaded your piece, but when i tried to play
it i got an error dialog from Tonescape. I've tried
many times, always with the same result. Does this
file play OK for you?

I'm thinking that perhaps you made an alteration to
the file before posting it, and now that alteration
is causing it to crash. If it plays OK on your end,
then we need to investigate what's going wrong.


-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

--- In tonescape_denhaag@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
> I accidentally sent this to the wrong group. Short piece in
> 24-out-of-300-edo, composed using Tonescape.
>
> The piece:
> http://rozencrantz.googlepages.com/Sketchin300.tonescape
>
> The tuning:
> http://rozencrantz.googlepages.com/Zig-zag24.tuning
>
> --
> --Tristan
> http://dolor-sit-amet.deviantart.com
>

I accidentally sent this to the wrong group. Short piece in
24-out-of-300-edo, composed using Tonescape.

The piece:
http://rozencrantz.googlepages.com/Sketchin300.tonescape

The tuning:
http://rozencrantz.googlepages.com/Zig-zag24.tuning

--
--Tristan
http://dolor-sit-amet.deviantart.com

Hi Tristan,


--- In tonescape_denhaag@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:

> New section, not a section instance. When I copied the
> notes into the same section, I no longer had this problem,
> but I ran into another: When I made the tuning, a subset
> of 300-tet, I only gave myself 12 notes, but after a few
> modulations I found I needed more. Is there a way to
> add notes on-the-fly, or do I have to make a new tuning?


You have to make a new Tuning -- there's no way to add
notes to a Tuning that you've already embedded into a
Musical Piece.

Tonescape keeps track of the notes in your Musical Piece
as degrees-of-a-scale, so if you create a new Tuning which
has the additional notes, and then create a new version
of your Musical Piece which uses that new Tuning, it will
be necessary for you to adjust the positions of the old
notes.

If you copy and paste the notes from the old Piece into
the new one, Tonescape will keep the notes in the degree
order that they had in the original Piece. But since the
notes that have been added into the new Tuning will change
the degree numbers of the old notes, you'll have to move
them to the new positions.


-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

On 2/27/07, monz <joemonz@...> wrote:
> Hi Tristan,

> > I'm working on a piece that repeats the same melody
> > in different keys. I have copied the melody forward
> > into a new section,
>
>
> When you say you "copied the melody forward into a new section",
> does that mean that you actually used the Outline View to create
> a new Section (in Tonescape terminology)? Or are you just
> using the word "section" loosely?

New section, not a section instance. When I copied the notes into the
same section, I no longer had this problem, but I ran into another:
When I made the tuning, a subset of 300-tet, I only gave myself 12
notes, but after a few modulations I found I needed more. Is there a
way to add notes on-the-fly, or do I have to make a new tuning?

> > Once I work out these issues, I will have my first
> > completed piece made entirely in Tonescape. This is
> > really exciting to me, thank you for providing this
> > software.
>
> Awesome! Looking forward to hearing *and* seeing it!

I'm going to sit on it until the Euler tricentennial, April 15th,
since I learned to use 300-edo for temperament specifically for that
event. I'll keep composing, though.

--Tristan
http://dolor-sit-amet.deviantart.com

Hi Tristan,

--- In tonescape_denhaag@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:

> I'm working on a piece that repeats the same melody
> in different keys. I have copied the melody forward
> into a new section,


When you say you "copied the melody forward into a new section",
does that mean that you actually used the Outline View to create
a new Section (in Tonescape terminology)? Or are you just
using the word "section" loosely?

It's important to understand how Tonescape works with
Sections if you're going to use them in composing your
Musical Piece.

You can create different Sections for your piece, and
Tonescape will also let you "Create New Section Instance".
A "Section Instance" is a copy of an already-created
Section, and any change you make to one Instance will
cause the same change to be made to all other Instances,
including the original Section.

Let's use "Fur Elise" as a well-known example of Rondo
form, in this case it's ABACA -- the "A" section is the
famous part which everyone knows. You could create
"Fur Elise" in Tonescape using three different Sections,
and then you'd have two copied Instances of Section "A"
in-between Sections "B" and "C".


> and I now want to transpose all of the notes down one
> step. When I select them and drag them down one step on
> the pitch-height view, they snap back to the original key.


Hmm ... now that's weird and i don't know why it's happening.
Whenever i select notes and drag them around to change
either the time-placement or the pitch, they always stay
right where i dragged them to.

Note what i said about creating Section Instances: if
you make a change on one Instance, the same change will
be made to all others.



> Also, is there a fast way to select a large block of notes,
> to move them or copy them?


Hold down the "Ctrl" key, left-click on the Pitch-Height
window near the top left corner of the block of notes you
want to select, and drag the mouse to the lower right corner.

Before you do this, you'll probably want to right-click
on the Pitch-Height window and de-select "Sounding Enabled"
from the pop-up menu, otherwise when you select a whole
bunch of notes they'll all be sounding and will create
a hellish noise. (of course, you might actually *like*
to hear that too!)

Also be aware that the Pitch-Height window does automatic
scrolling when you do this operation, and so far we don't
have any way for the user to customize it, and it scrolls
pretty fast. If i have a large block of notes to select,
i Zoom Out all the way first.


> Once I work out these issues, I will have my first
> completed piece made entirely in Tonescape. This is
> really exciting to me, thank you for providing this
> software.


Awesome! Looking forward to hearing *and* seeing it!

This is terrific news for me. So far, i am the only person
who has actually composed new Musical Pieces in Tonescape.
The most significant thing i used it for so far is my
score to the short film "Darks and Whites" in July 2006.

Please, not only post it to the Files section of this group,
but also to our website Free Music page! I'll have to speak
to Chris to get you set up with an account.


-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

I'm working on a piece that repeats the same melody in different keys.
I have copied the melody forward into a new section, and I now want to
transpose all of the notes down one step. When I select them and drag
them down one step on the pitch-height view, they snap back to the
original key.

Also, is there a fast way to select a large block of notes, to move
them or copy them?

Once I work out these issues, I will have my first completed piece
made entirely in Tonescape. This is really exciting to me, thank you
for providing this software.

--Tristan
http://dolor-sit-amet.deviantart.com

--- In tonescape_denhaag@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <joemonz@...> wrote:
>
> A rudimentary .tonescape file of one of my favorite pieces,
> composed when the brilliant Erich Korngold was 15 years old:
>
>
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/tonescape_denhaag/files/pieces/korngold_sinfo\
nietta-2-trio_1-6cmt_3-5-space.tonescape
>
> Korngold: Sinfonietta (1915), 2nd movement (Scherzo) - Trio,
> tuned to 1/6-comma meantone, 31-tone, origin = F#
>
>
> ... Compare the sound of this to the Hollywood film scores
> he wrote 20 years later.


Oops, my bad ... the correct date is 1912.

You can read about its history in its historical context here,
under the years 1912 and 1913:

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/v/vienna.htm



-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

A rudimentary .tonescape file of one of my favorite pieces,
composed when the brilliant Erich Korngold was 15 years old:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/tonescape_denhaag/files/pieces/korngold_sinfo\
nietta-2-trio_1-6cmt_3-5-space.tonescape

Korngold: Sinfonietta (1915), 2nd movement (Scherzo) - Trio, tuned to
1/6-comma meantone, 31-tone, origin = F#


... Compare the sound of this to the Hollywood film scores
he wrote 20 years later.


-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

Hey folks,


For those who want to play along with my current task of
inputting works from the standard Classical/Romantic repertoire
in a 31-tone subset of 1/6-comma meantone -- or if you want
to get a quick handle on composing in Tonescape by using
my ready-made templates in that tuning -- here is a zip file
of .tonescape Musical Piece files with a full standard
orchestral setup in each of the standard keys:


http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/tonescape_denhaag/files/templates/1-6cmt/1-6c\
mt-keys_tonescape_tunings-and-piece-templates.zip

Zip file: templates for Tonescape Musical Pieces in
1/6-comma meantone, using standard orchestra Parts and
a 31-tone chain, in each of the standard keys, based
on A=440 Hz; the .tuning files are also included (48 Kb)


-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

Hi Tristan,


--- In tonescape_denhaag@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, so when I'm working inside of Tonescape, how do I set
> the output to MIDI and choose the voice?
>
> On 2/24/07, monz <joemonz@...> wrote:
> > Hi Tristan,
> >
> > Tonescape uses MIDI internally to audition sounds as you
> > work on your tunings or pieces in Tonescape.
> >
> > The Classical Guitar sound is the only "instrument" we have
> > in our .wav and .aif creation process. I've been working hard
> > on Classical Piano but it's not to my satisfaction yet.
> >
> > The internal MIDI of Tonescape is based on General MIDI,
> > so it uses all 128 of the GM sounds (timbres). Tonescape
> > can also export your .tonescape Musical Piece file as
> > a MIDI file, or as a Csound .csd file.
> >
> > If you export to either MIDI or Csound, you may then use
> > whatever MIDI/Csound instruments you wish to play the
> > exported file, and use your various other software tools
> > to create audio files from them.


While working on a .tonescape Musical Piece file
inside of Tonescape, you don't have to set anything
to MIDI: that's what Tonescape uses to play your
.tonescape Musical Piece files.

We call the various instrumental parts, logically enough,
"parts". To select a part, you open the Outline window,
which you can do either via the "View" menu or by clicking
the toolbar button that has long pink, blue, and green
rectangles (just to the left of the button with the two
badly-drawn outstretched conductor's arms). It will show
a list of Sections and Parts. A new .tonescape file has
by default only one Section and only one Part, and the
Part is "Classical Piano".

To add a new part, right-click on one of the existing
parts, select "Create New Part" for a new part using an
instrument with fixed pitch, or "Create New Percussion Part"
for an unpitched percussion instrument. Then choose the
instrument you want from the "Tools" window list. The
instruments are categorized in trees.

We have a complete set of transposing instruments for those
which transpose, but Tonescape doesn't yet do the automatic
transposition, so you still have to enter those parts at
"concert pitch".

You can change the pitched instruments at any time by
using the "Instruments" tab of the "Tools" window, which
you can open either via the "View" menu or by clicking
the toolbar button which has a picture of a wrench
(it actually looks kind of like a dog bone). Have the
Outline view open, click on the instrument you want in
the Instruments tab list, and drag it over to the Part
(on the Outline view) that you want to change. These
Instrument changes are global for the Part: whatever
notes and other data are on that part will be played
by whichever Instrument is assigned to that Part.


Working outside Tonescape -- i.e., if you want to export
to MIDI or Csound and use your other tools to create an
audio file -- use the "File" menu and choose "Export to ...".
But be warned that while the MIDI files will preserve
dynamics, phrasing, and tempo, they will lose much of the
information that Tonescape keeps, such as Lattice structure,
Time Signatures, etc.


(Tonescape is extremely complex, and i will be adding
more and more to this group as folks keep asking questions.
I haven't said anything at all yet about our nifty built-in
Time Signatures complete with rythmic and volume accents.)


-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

Ok, so when I'm working inside of Tonescape, how do I set the output
to MIDI and choose the voice?

On 2/24/07, monz <joemonz@...> wrote:
> Hi Tristan,
>
> Tonescape uses MIDI internally to audition sounds as you
> work on your tunings or pieces in Tonescape.
>
> The Classical Guitar sound is the only "instrument" we have
> in our .wav and .aif creation process. I've been working hard
> on Classical Piano but it's not to my satisfaction yet.
>
> The internal MIDI of Tonescape is based on General MIDI,
> so it uses all 128 of the GM sounds (timbres). Tonescape
> can also export your .tonescape Musical Piece file as
> a MIDI file, or as a Csound .csd file.
>
> If you export to either MIDI or Csound, you may then use
> whatever MIDI/Csound instruments you wish to play the
> exported file, and use your various other software tools
> to create audio files from them.
>
>
> -monz
> http://tonalsoft.com
> Tonescape microtonal music software

--Tristan
http://dolor-sit-amet.deviantart.com

Hi Tristan,


--- In tonescape_denhaag@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:

> I just now loaded up Beethoven's 5th to see how you did it,
> and I noticed that you got much more timbral variety than
> I've been able to get. You said earlier that the guitar sound
> was the only one available, did you route this straight
> to MIDI? How did you do that?


Tonescape uses MIDI internally to audition sounds as you
work on your tunings or pieces in Tonescape.

The Classical Guitar sound is the only "instrument" we have
in our .wav and .aif creation process. I've been working hard
on Classical Piano but it's not to my satisfaction yet.

The internal MIDI of Tonescape is based on General MIDI,
so it uses all 128 of the GM sounds (timbres). Tonescape
can also export your .tonescape Musical Piece file as
a MIDI file, or as a Csound .csd file.

If you export to either MIDI or Csound, you may then use
whatever MIDI/Csound instruments you wish to play the
exported file, and use your various other software tools
to create audio files from them.


-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software