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Amendments to character names of TSCII draft Version 3 for IETF   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #2101 of 2979 |
Draft Proposal for Primary Character names Rev 5

Friends,

I have uploaded a proposal for the primary character names in the
files section under "tscii char name proposal-rev5.txt".

OLD ASSUMPTIONS:

1. Char names are transliterations
2. IETF requires the char names to be identical to Unicode char names
3. Only one char name should be given for each character/glyph

RESULTS OF ANALYSIS AND RESEARCH

1. Char names are not transliterations.

Unicode char names for Tamil are not meant to be used as
transliterations. They don't follow any recognized transliteration
standard. They are all in a single case, do not use numbers or other
signs and they cannot disambiguate between mey letters (consonants)
and uyirmeys (consonant+vowels) if used as transliterations.

2. Char names are names of characters that don't follow any
transliteration

This is obvious by looking at the unicode char names Aytham,
Visarga, Virama, as well as the names for single and double
quotation marks in the TSCII specifications. The character names
also don't follow any transliteration standard. For instance, the
name for the Aytham letter is spelled as "AYTHAM" and not "AAYTAM"
as would be expected from adherence to Madras Tamil Lexicon or other
transliteration standard. Instead it uses the common names for the
letter.

3. IETF does not require the char names to be identical to Unicode
char names

Though this is true by examining the registered char set names, it
makes it easier for programmers familiar with the Unicode chart to
see identical names in the TSCII.

4. Two sets of char names have been given for each character/glyph

This is obvious from the Sinhala Unicode standard

5. This proposal does not need to challenge, amend, or reform any of
the transliteration standards, conventions or proposals.


RATIONALE FOR THE PROPOSAL:

In several non-Latin character sets such as Greek, Hebrew, Arabic,
Sinhala and Tamil, characters have names. No Greek language
encoding standard would even consider using A, B, G, D, instead of
Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, for the character names. Similarly, a
Hebrew standard would be expected to use names like Alef, Bet,
Gimel, Dalet and an Arab standard would use Alef, Beh, etc. The
Sinhalese standards were careful to include the character names
Ayanna, Aayanna, Aeyanna, etc. It is an oversight of the ISCII
based standards to have missed the character names. Thus, the ISCII
Tamil standard and the Unicode Tamil standard that derives from
ISCII have neglected to include the Tamil character names.

It is this oversight, this proposal wishes to correct.

Several of these character names are used as is in the Tamil grammar
books and other reference works dating from Before Common Era and up
to 2003. Tolkappiyam (200 BCE - 200 AD) the ancient classic,
Nannuul (13th Century CE) and until the 19th century the ultimate
standard Tamil grammar, grammar books by Suddhanandha Bharathiyaar
(1950), Dr. Paramasivam (1995), Singapore Siddharthan (2003), and
general books on Tamil language and linguistics by Dr. Mu.
Varatharasanaar, T. P. Meenatchisundaranaar, are among the several
books that support the notation in this proposal.

BRIEF ANNOTATIONS ON THE PROPOSAL:

I have proposed the character names in consultation with noted Tamil
scholars, Prof. George Hart, holder of Tamil Chair at University of
California at Berkeley and Prof. Ilakkuvanar Maraimalai, Depart of
Tamil, University of Madras, Tamil Nadu.

Essentially, it follows the standard described by TolkAppiyam (200
BCE - 200 CE) in adding -karam to the short vowels (kuRils) and -
kaaram to the long vowels (nedils). The pure consonants are
referred to us -kara mey as in "kakara mey" etc.

I left the Grantha characters without any change except to note that
they are uyirmeys or pure consonants. I couldn't find any reference
where they are also modified with the -karam/-kaaram suffix.

I have used common names for the characters such as Paththu rather
than pattu that would be compatible with the MTL transliteration
notation.

I have left the retroflex N as NN without any modifier. However, to
distinguish between the dental N (thannakaram) and the alveolar N
(Rannakaram), I have used the linguistic terms dental and alveolar.
I have tried not to use any transliteration notation to distinguish
between these two Ns.

I have included the Unicode Tamil character names as secondary names
without any change except to use the latest notations such as Aytham.

Please go over the proposal and send your feedback including typos
etc. I have already discovered that I have spelled PATHTHU AS
PATTHU. I am sure other notations need to be carefully proofed.

Thank you for your consideration.

anbudan,

Mani M. Manivannan





Sun May 15, 2005 10:11 pm

mani_m_maniv...
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Message #2101 of 2979 |
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Hello Dear Mani, Please ignore my previous mail because ur proposal has already changed. ... I have no issues with TH friendliness. But my Q instead of AQ...
lak sri
laksri_3000
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May 11, 2005
6:39 am

Friends, I have uploaded a proposal for the primary character names in the files section under "tscii char name proposal-rev5.txt". OLD ASSUMPTIONS: 1. Char...
Mani M. Manivannan
mani_m_maniv...
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May 15, 2005
10:12 pm

Dear Mani, Are there tamil grammarians in the list, I am waiting to hear from them as mentioned by u too. I think active group can be categorised as some...
lak sri
laksri_3000
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May 16, 2005
6:05 am

Yes, there are Tamil scholars in the list and they are monitoring the discussions. At least one of them, Prof. Vasu Renganathan just posted a response. I am...
Mani M. Manivannan
mani_m_maniv...
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May 16, 2005
6:13 am

Friends, I have uploaded a revised proposal for the primary character names in the files section under "tscii char name proposal-rev6.txt". Thanks for your...
Mani M. Manivannan
mani_m_maniv...
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May 16, 2005
7:26 am

Dear Mani, AD TAMIL VOWEL IKARAM (USAGE IN SLOT DEPRECATED) = Tamil letter i (usage in slot deprecated) Do you think it will be enough to add "" in the TSCII...
Muthu Nedumaran
m_nedumaran
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May 16, 2005
7:38 am

Dear Muthu, ... You are right. We don't need to annotate Unicode names. I'll add it in Rev 7 once I collect enough corrections. anbudan, Mani M. Manivannan...
Mani M. Manivannan
mani_m_maniv...
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May 16, 2005
7:48 am

Dear Mani, First off thanks for putting immense effort even with all your travel etc and spending time to clarify things in between. ... Can we call it...
lak sri
laksri_3000
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May 16, 2005
4:23 pm

... Puujyam was introduced in Tamil arithmetic by the British in 19th century. We've discussed this extensively in wg02infitt, and its proposal to add Zero has...
naga_ganesan
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May 16, 2005
4:24 pm

Hello All, ... AQ can Q (EAQKU can be EQKU) ... Logic in Unicode is simple for TT, NN, T, N, TT:T::NN:N Also see continuation of that with LL:L RR:R which ...
lak sri
laksri_3000
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May 11, 2005
6:37 am

Dear Mani: Let me give initial comments on the scheme that you and others have proposed ... here my preferences are to use simply Q for the aaytham ... (Mani...
K Kalyanasundaram
kkalyana
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May 11, 2005
7:27 am

Friends, The best place to look for the names of the Tamil letters is, of course, the Tamil grammar books. Despite the fact that everybody knows the first ...
Mani M. Manivannan
mani_m_maniv...
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May 12, 2005
4:44 am

My suggestion ... (Mani latest) ... (current unicode) K also acts as q in words like kuyil, Plain Q will complicate future identification using diacritics. AQ...
Sinnathurai Srivas
sisrivas
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May 11, 2005
7:56 pm

mkkaL, mahaL, saharam, nenjch2u, maasi, maasam, maath2am, kadaisi, pasi I can list hundred of words that use the phoneme s, wile others use ch. Tamil letter Ch...
Sinnathurai Srivas
sisrivas
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May 11, 2005
7:57 pm

... It proves that we did not know that we even knew the standards. ... He should add this to Beginners Tamil book, which does not have it. ... OK I agree we...
lak sri
laksri_3000
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May 12, 2005
3:17 pm

Continuing from my last mail... What I see is (from the reference I have) http://www.suparno-tech.com/temp/akara_akaarangal.htm that makaram - makaarangal are...
lak sri
laksri_3000
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May 12, 2005
3:18 pm

Also in Tholkappiyam qkaan is used for a-meykaL Laqkaan For example, laqkaan and other qkaans are used. See sivaraj's recent quotes from Tholkarpiyam....
Sinnathurai Srivas
sisrivas
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May 12, 2005
7:33 pm

Dear All, ... Quite some time ago, I asked a related question on the Unicode mailing list. The authorative answer was: Unicode character names do not contain a...
Peter Jacobi
peter_jacobi.rm
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May 10, 2005
11:26 am

Let me be little more descriptive. 1/ Tamke T, as in Tamil and Th as in This. I 100% understand what Th means. Let's say 90% of the world will understand what...
Sinnathurai Srivas
sisrivas
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May 11, 2005
12:15 am

90% do not understand what is ment by d 90% do not understand what is meant by T 90% do understand what is meant by Th. Why is it that it is difficult to...
Sinnathurai Srivas
sisrivas
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May 11, 2005
12:16 am

I Agree Mani ManivaNNan, Unicode is crying out for help to break free of its outdated practice of stability policy. Microsoft broke its entire Tamil Unicode...
Sinnathurai Srivas
sisrivas
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May 10, 2005
9:40 am

... True. But Unicode follows the Devanagari convention and it is probably not seen as an akaram ERiya uyirmey. In any event, TSCII's descriptions include...
Sinnathurai Srivas
sisrivas
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May 10, 2005
12:18 am

e, ee, o, oo, au, ai will really confuse the international developers. Tholkaarpiyam Tamil e, ee, o, oo, ai, au is already confusing to alarge extent, our...
Sinnathurai Srivas
sisrivas
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May 9, 2005
8:01 pm

Dear Srivas, ... technologies. May be so. But it is hard to understand that from your unique notation. You should try to use a notation that at least one...
Mani M. Manivannan
mani_m_maniv...
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May 9, 2005
8:42 pm

Without understanding what Unicode encodes, Without understanding what TSCII encodes, Without understanding the differences between Unicode and TSCII encoding,...
Sinnathurai Srivas
sisrivas
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May 9, 2005
8:01 pm

Unicode naming is a flawed syatem in some respect. Visarga is still the name of Aytham in Unicode with hidden amendment. Visarga is a foolish name for Aytham...
Sinnathurai Srivas
sisrivas
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May 9, 2005
8:03 pm

And Unicode did not change the name Visarga to Aytham. They at present refuse to change it because of stability policy. However they annotate it as Aytham, due...
Sinnathurai Srivas
sisrivas
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May 9, 2005
8:04 pm

We are not discussing encoding. That is already done. (Except may be for Ohm.). We are now discussing naming and registering with ietf. I do not know what your...
Sinnathurai Srivas
sisrivas
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May 10, 2005
12:12 am

... F2 TAMIL CONSONANT T F0 TAMIL CONSONANT TT with F2 TAMIL CONSONANT TH F3 TAMIL CONSONANT T ... What is meant by T in F3? Unicode names are...
Sinnathurai Srivas
sisrivas
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May 10, 2005
12:15 am

Dear manivaNNan, I think you miss the point. TSCII is based on Viramaa theory. Uses combukaL, uses ai marker, uses au marker. Hence TSCII should name them as...
Sinnathurai Srivas
sisrivas
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May 10, 2005
12:16 am
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