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114 7-limit temperaments   Message List  
Reply Message #8876 of 20696 |
Re: 114 7-limit temperaments

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:08:14 -0000, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
> wrote:
>
> >Number 82
> >
> >[6, -2, -2, -17, -20, 1] [[2, 2, 5, 6], [0, 3, -1, -1]]
> >TOP tuning [1203.400986, 1896.025764, 2777.627538, 3379.328030]
> >TOP generators [601.7004928, 230.8749260]
> >bad: 79.825592 comp: 4.619353 err: 3.740932

...

> When I plug 10 and 16 into the temperament finder, this is what I
> end up with.
>
> 5/13, 229.4 cent generator
>
> basis:
> (0.5, 0.191135896755)
>
> mapping by period and generator:
> [(2, 0), (2, 3), (5, -1), (6, -1)]
>
> mapping by steps:
> [(16, 10), (25, 16), (37, 23), (45, 28)]
>
> highest interval width: 4
> complexity measure: 8 (10 for smallest MOS)
> highest error: 0.014573 (17.488 cents)

This comparison of different outputs for the same temperament shows up
the need to correctly normalise the new weighted error and complexity
figures so they actually have units we can relate to. i.e. cents for
the error and gens per interval for the complexity.

This should be simple to do.

I think the correct normalisation of a weighted norm is the one where,
if every individual value happened to be X then the, the norm would
also be X, irrespective of the weights.

e.g. if the individual errors are E1, E2, ... En, and the respective
weights are W1, W2, ... Wn (all positive), I think the p-norm should
not be

[(|W1E1|**p + |W2E2|**p + ... |WnEn|**p)/n]**(1/p)

but instead

[(|W1E1|**p + |W2E2|**p + ... |WnEn|**p)/(W1**p + W2**p + ...
Wn**p)]**(1/p)

i.e. n is replaced by (W1**p + W2**p + ... Wn**p)

However it bothers me slightly that for minimax (p -> oo), this is
equivalent to

Max(|W1E1|, |W2E2|, ... |WnEn|)/Max(W1, W2, ... Wn)

It seems like I'd rather have

Max(|W1E1|, |W2E2|, ... |WnEn|)/Mean(W1, W2, ... Wn)

but I guess that would be inconsistent.





Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:48 am

dkeenanuqnetau
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Message #8876 of 20696 |
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On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:08:14 -0000, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@...> ... There are a number of interesting and potentially useful new tunings in this...
Herman Miller
teamousechan... Offline Send Email
Jan 26, 2004
1:34 am

... This comparison of different outputs for the same temperament shows up the need to correctly normalise the new weighted error and complexity figures so...
Dave Keenan
dkeenanuqnetau Offline Send Email
Jan 27, 2004
4:48 am

... <gwsmith@s...> ... up ... complexity ... where, ... You realize that there are an infinite number of errors in the TOP case....
Paul Erlich
paulerlich Offline Send Email
Jan 28, 2004
1:07 am

... No I didn't. How do you mean? Obviously you don't do an infinite number of calculations. But even so, the normalisation factor may still converge. If it's...
Dave Keenan
dkeenanuqnetau Offline Send Email
Jan 28, 2004
10:07 pm

... shows ... cents for ... would ... TOP ... It's the minimax over *all* intervals. ... No, you only need to set the primes, and the rest falls out correctly....
Paul Erlich
paulerlich Offline Send Email
Jan 28, 2004
11:20 pm

... You mean the 1/log(product_complexity) weighted minimax over all intervals in the prime limit. ... Yes, It's very clever in that way. But still it flies in...
Dave Keenan
dkeenanuqnetau Offline Send Email
Jan 29, 2004
1:20 am

... correctly. ... I don't think that's quite what Partch says. Manuel, at least, has always insisted that simpler ratios need to be tuned more accurately, and...
Paul Erlich
paulerlich Offline Send Email
Jan 29, 2004
1:54 am

... So what _does_ Partch say? ... But surely it's obvious that beat rates go up as something like error _times_ complexity, not down as error _divided_by_...
Dave Keenan
dkeenanuqnetau Offline Send Email
Jan 29, 2004
2:47 am

... Without evaluating this, I'll claim that beat rates are not a good indicator of discordance. -Carl...
Carl Lumma
clumma Offline Send Email
Jan 29, 2004
3:04 am

... face of ... the ... and ... I'll have to go home and look. ... accurately, ... error ... Yes. But beating is virtually irrelevant for the perception of...
Paul Erlich
paulerlich Offline Send Email
Jan 29, 2004
3:16 am

... In our application perhaps, but not in general. Here's another way to check the normalisation. Scaling all the weights by the same factor (e.g. using a...
Dave Keenan
dkeenanuqnetau Offline Send Email
Jan 29, 2004
3:58 am

... try ... Might that be, in a way, a necessary result of dropping octave- equivalence? ... for ... explaining ... the ... For linear temperaments, I agree...
Paul Erlich
paulerlich Offline Send Email
Jan 29, 2004
4:19 am

... It might be, but in any case I'd still like to get on top of it. Without octave equivalence we can still make it finite by limiting it to the range of...
Dave Keenan
dkeenanuqnetau Offline Send Email
Jan 29, 2004
7:32 am

... I ... we ... keeps ... it ... Sure, but then we won't have a clear choice of generator even for linear temperaments. I think *scale* (finite non-ET pitch...
Paul Erlich
paulerlich Offline Send Email
Jan 29, 2004
9:20 pm

... As long as the temperament maps the octave, will it not be periodic at said octave? -Carl...
Carl Lumma
clumma Offline Send Email
Jan 29, 2004
10:03 am

... the ... generally ... the ... Unless it's an equal temperament, it will have an infinite density of notes, periodic at any conceivable interval in the...
Paul Erlich
paulerlich Offline Send Email
Jan 29, 2004
9:29 pm

... No generator is privileged in the mod relationship (any may be taken as mod any other). And since the pair of generators was never unique, we have no more...
Carl Lumma
clumma Offline Send Email
Jan 29, 2004
10:30 am

... a ... explaining ... the ... unique, ... Well, it was a lot more unique before, since one of the generators was totally unique -- the period -- and the...
Paul Erlich
paulerlich Offline Send Email
Jan 29, 2004
9:38 pm

... Ok. -Carl...
Carl Lumma
clumma Offline Send Email
Jan 30, 2004
5:04 am

... Did you ever track down what Partch said? Harmonic entropy can obviously be used to prove whatever you like. It also shows that the troughs get narrower...
Graham Breed
x31eq Online Now Send Email
Feb 1, 2004
6:13 pm

... Not me, for the most part. I think the non-keyboard composer is simply being ignored in these discussions, and I think I'll stand up for him. ... and I ......
Gene Ward Smith
genewardsmith Offline Send Email
Feb 1, 2004
7:13 pm

... How *are* you constructing scales, and what does it have to do with keyboards? -Carl...
Carl Lumma
clumma Offline Send Email
Feb 1, 2004
10:13 pm

... Often I'm not constructing them because I'm not using them....
Gene Ward Smith
genewardsmith Offline Send Email
Feb 2, 2004
2:05 am

... Care to explain how you can compose without the existence of scales? -Carl...
Carl Lumma
clumma Offline Send Email
Feb 2, 2004
3:16 am

... up ... And the new-keyboard composer! ... a ... 7, ... Really? Can you elaborate? Do you still get an infinite number of images of each ratio, times 9/3^2,...
Paul Erlich
paulerlich Offline Send Email
Feb 2, 2004
3:05 am

... Observation One: The extent and intensity of the influence of a magnet is in inverse proportion to its ratio to 1. "To be taken in conjunction with the...
Carl Lumma
clumma Offline Send Email
Feb 1, 2004
10:51 pm

... Hmm, that's fairly impenetrable. But it does say "extend" and "inverse proportion". ... So it's only about resolution? ... Oh no, the simple intervals...
Graham Breed
x31eq Online Now Send Email
Feb 2, 2004
12:29 am

... it. At ... beyond ... Examples? ... ?...
Paul Erlich
paulerlich Offline Send Email
Feb 2, 2004
3:12 am

... Well, meantone isn't 9-limit unique, so anything else will have mythical approximations by this dyadic harmonic entropy viewpoint. That includes dominant...
Graham Breed
x31eq Online Now Send Email
Feb 2, 2004
10:48 pm

... important. ... mythical ... Dicot isn't 5-limit unique . . . ... OK -- fortunately, the TOP weighting scheme is completely robust to whether or not more...
Paul Erlich
paulerlich Offline Send Email
Feb 2, 2004
10:55 pm
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