--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Hossam M. Khodary"
<hkhodary@y...> wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I am curious to learn if anyone is using the above for clickstream
> data collection purposes. I have come across at least 2 new
products
> that use the above techniques.
>
> I am interested in learning about issues, shortcomings and strong
> points.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Hossam

Hi there,

I am curious to learn if anyone is using the above for clickstream
data collection purposes. I have come across at least 2 new products
that use the above techniques.

I am interested in learning about issues, shortcomings and strong
points.

Thanks!

Hossam

Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the
webanalytics group:

On a scale of 1 to 10 (10
being "extremely likely") how likely
are you to recommend your
analytics provider to a friend or
business associate?

   o 10 - Extremely Likely
   o 9
   o 8
   o 7
   o 6
   o 5
   o 4
   o 3
   o 2
   o 1 - Extremely Unlikely


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics/surveys?id=1292439

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

Braden,

Excellent comments!  While I cannot share specific data regarding the cost of
switching, these costs generally emerge from three specific areas: IT resources,
training and relationship development.

IT resources is pretty obvious - if you're moving from a log-based solution, ala
WebTrends, to a tag-based method there is the cost of tagging pages.  I mention
this since this is a pretty common direction for companies to move, away from
log files.  Some of the hidden costs here include the time it takes to devise a
hierarchy and implementation plan for data collection, establishment of custom
variables, segmentation strategy (if the application does not allow ad hoc,
historical segmentation).

Training is also fairly obvious - your company is likely pretty used to the
kinds of reports they've been getting and now you need to retrain them to use
different reports/language/concepts/etc.  Providing your new provider has an
experienced team to provide training support this is less of an issue but I
caution my clients to be careful when examining training options.  Analytics
training is not a "one size fits all" endeavour - different levels of training
should be offered, from "basic training" on the interface all the way up to
"expert user" and "business objective" focused training programs (typically
delivered by analysts, less often by CSR or training teams).

Relationship development is the cost that is usually overlooked - the time it
will take you to establish a strong relationship with your new vendor of choice.
The top-tier players in analytics all have a slightly different approach to
customer support and some of these approaches work better than others.  While I
obviously cannot advise anyone about which vendor has a strategy that would work
for them, I can say this.  It's not a bad idea to ask to talk to/meet the person
or team that will be responsible for your relationship after the ink dries
DURING the pre-sale process.  Time and time again we see that companies that
have a strong relationship with their vendor - software or services, does not
matter - are more likely to make good use of the application.

Regarding your comment about portability of data, this is tricky.  If you're
tied to historicals then I recommend you examine "why" this is the case. 
Companies that place too heavy a reliance on historical data are often not
taking advantage of the tactical value of said applications.  Switching data
collection devices - even from tags to tags or logs to logs - almost always
concern about comparison to historical data.  My advice is to focus more on
recently collected data, take advantage of emerging tools for A/B testing and
site/marketing optimization, and select the best tool for the job NOW, not year
over year.

Eric

P.S.  I do hear rumors that one of the vendors has devised a way to either
import data from other applications/data formats and/or co-opt competitors tags
and collect partial data without massive re-tagging.  If anyone has more details
about this rumor I'd love to know!




---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Braden Hoeppner" <braden.hoeppner@...>
Reply-To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
Date:  Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:23:34 -0700

>---------- Original Message ----------------------------------

>Hi Eric,
>
>Any chance you can post that information about the cost of switching vendors?
>
> I believe that this is an important 'feature' of an analytics vendor: how easy
is it to get your data if you decide to switch? Not only a problem with web
analytics, but as software companies move online, and packages move to a
subscription based approach, it becomes difficult to 'get your data'
>out in a usable form should you decide to switch vendors at some point. If you
switch vendors and they have a different methodology of tracking, or do not have
a good export tool, your historic data could be useless.
>
>I understand that offering a good export package seems to be something that
would promote churn, but as the market becomes more competitive I don't think
people will put up with the inability to have full control over there data -
this is probably even more true as web analysts become more adept and
>manipulating data to produce important metrics for their businesses needs.
>
>Cheers,
>Braden
>
>  _____
>
>From: Eric Peterson [mailto:eric@...]
>Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 8:43 PM
>To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: RE: [webanalytics] What applications are other people using?
>
>
>Interesting points, all, Matt.  While I am inclined to agree with you regarding
customer-centric organization I'm slightly more pessimistic about the ultimate
depths current and future vendors will take their feature sets.  Your comments
about companies like Cognos, SAS and epiphany providing
>critical insights into customer intelligence are well put but do you think that
"Web analytics" should be bounded somehow?  I guess what I'm asking is, if the
current analytics vendors start to analyze the multitudes of data types
currently available to the realm of "marketing" and "customer
>analytics" how will we know that they are Web analytics applications vendors
anymore?
>
>Certainly it's an open question, what features and functions should be included
in the toolsets provided by companies like WebTrends, WebSideStory and Omniture
(just to name a few).  As we see each of the top-tier vendors, as well as a
handful of the so-called "mid-tier" vendors, expanding into new
>realms - WebTrends acquires Web Position Gold, Coremetrics partners with ATG,
WebSideStory partners with Atomz, etc. - we as relative outsiders are forced to
sit back and adopt a "wait and see" attitude regarding their likelihood to
succeed with these endeavours.  To this end, and my point about the
>feature/function wars, we can be fairly sure that if any one vendor gains
traction in a new market that the rest of the pack will follow.  Think about the
analytics vendors recent interest in search (site search, bid management, SEO,
SEM) and ask yourself how long it will be before the entire
>top-tier has some significant investment/partnership in online search
capabilities.
>
>Finally, I strongly agree with Mr. Belkin regarding his advice to
"quibble12345" taking a closer look at each vendor before making a decision to
switch vendors.  Data we've collected in my day job indicates that the costs
associated with switching are much higher than often thought -- both in terms
>of retraining and reimplementation/reinstallation -- and thusly companies
should look for better criteria to drive vendor change than any claims that a
vendor, a company, or even an analyst makes ;-)
>
>
>
>
>

I work for Resource Interactive.  We create web sites for Fortune 500
clients.

--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, michael_tyrrell@f... wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Forgive me if you've said this already, but what firm do you work
for?
>
>
>

>                       quibble12345

>                       <aablank@hotmail.        To:
webanalytics@yahoogroups.com

>                       com>                     cc:

>                                                Subject:
[webanalytics] Re: What applications are other people using?

>                       06/30/2004 05:43

>                       PM

>                       Please respond to

>                       webanalytics

>

>

>
>


>
>
> Certainly I can't commit to any vendor, as my firm helps many
clients
> with analytics packages of their own choice.  I have to be adept at
a
> number of tools that is growing all of the time.  I agree with Matt,
> Omniture is really good.  But I can't say that it's best.
>
> In my previous message, I was relaying my frustration with the
> communication about and marketing of these tools.  There is a big
> silence about who to use because of a lack of experience in the
market.
>
> Matt is right about the opportunity to educate.  There seems to be
> downright fear from the vendors regarding showing too much of a
sample
> report on a web site (some offline dataminers do it too).  A lot of
> the claims all sound the same.  The differences are not sharply
apparent.
>
> If there's a lack of experience in the market, put up a demo to let
> people try it out.  The way I see it, if a company really thinks its
> product is the best in the market, show it off (take a look at
> http://www.spss.com/clementine/, they do).  Don't worry about the
> competition, they'll see it anyway.  Worry about getting the target
> users interested in your tool.  Right now the market is wide open.
>
> Granted, it's not like buying a fries and a Coke.  I know it
requires
> explanation, but in what analogous market does it make sense to hide
> the actual product?
>
>
> --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Matt Belkin <mbelkin@m...>
wrote:
> > The "feature/function" wars are definitely not over.  What we've
> seen thus
> > far is just the tip of iceberg for Web Analytics.  As John Mellor
notes,
> > "web analytics is in its infancy".  This is unquestionably true.
But I
> > think the whole notion of "feature/function" wars is sort of
> misplaced.  The
> > future of Web Analytics is really much deeper than just the top
vendors
> > adding similar features in each product rev.  It's about expanding
> customer
> > needs, how vendors can meet those needs, and the web analytics
adoption
> > lifecycle.
> >
> >
> >
> > While it's true that many Web Analytics vendor appear very similar
> on paper,
> > if you actually use the products, you'll realize just how
different they
> > are.  There are fundamental architecture differences that allow
> companies
> > like Omniture to perform better than say, coreMetrics.
> Unfortunately, while
> > this competitive advantage (among many others) allows Omniture to
> remain the
> > market leader, they must also step up to that opportunity and help
> prospects
> > like "quibble1235" understand why they are better.  That is not a
> > "feature/function" issue - it is a question of educating the
market and
> > moving customers along the adoption lifecycle.
> >
> >
> > This is no small issue - on one end of the spectrum (the
laggards),
> I still
> > hear people talk about "how many hits their website gets".
Fortune 500
> > companies are still using log files to track IP addresses (unaware
> that log
> > files are worthless). These folks are months if not years away
from
> > realizing the capabilities available in Web Analytics packages
like
> > Omniture.
> >
> >
> >
> > At the other end of the spectrum, companies like Macromedia are
> constantly
> > pushing the envelope of Web Analytics.  We're focused on how we
can
> leverage
> > Web Analytics to fill the enormous void in Marketing and Customer
> Analytics.
> > This means not just website traffic, but any online activities
where we
> > communicate with customers. Virtual seminars, customer support,
blogs,
> > eLearning, etc.  And we're not just talking about online.  This
also
> means
> > offline as well.  Take a look at companies like Cognos, SAS, and
> epiphany.
> > These folks provide critical offline customer intelligence
> capabilities -
> > mostly on the back-end with data warehouses.  Direct sales,
customer
> > service, finance, events, public relations - these are all
customer
> > touchpoints that we care about, but that Web Analytics has no view
into.
> > True, vendors like Omniture, WebSideStory, and CoreMetrics are
> making some
> > in-roads here, but we're still way off.
> >
> >
> >
> > Success in this market will be defined by how well vendors address
these
> > expanding customer needs - that's the reality.  And as long as
those
> needs
> > change and evolve, the "feature/function" wars will never be over.
> >
> >
> >
> > Finally, "quibble12345", I would advise you to do a little more
hands-on
> > research before arbitrarily committing to a vendor because they
are
> > allegedly the "BEST for eCommerce".  Customer retention is a good
> place to
> > start.
> >
> >
> >
> > - Matt.
> >
> >
> >
> >   _____
> >
> > From: Eric Peterson [mailto:eric.peterson@g...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 7:52 PM
> > To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [webanalytics] Re: What applications are other people
using?
> >
> >
> >
> > This is an interesting trend that comes up more and more often -
the
> > idea that the feature/function wars are now nearly over and nobody
> > won.  While not necessarily true today - I can think of several
> > vendors that I personally believe still have competitive
advantages
> > from a feature/function standpoint (and no, I'm not going to name
> > them by name, sorry) - vendors do appear to be heading rapidly in
> > that direction.
> >
> > So is this a good thing or a bad thing?
> >
> > Me, I'm not 100% sure.  While one one hand I'm in favor of feature
> > parity because it will force vendors to differentiate themselves
> > along more substantial lines - service, training and
> > implementation/installation support.  I also fear parity because
it
> > will likely cause further price erosion in a market that has
already
> > seen a substatial decline in gross profitability in the last
handful
> > of years.  While surely this will be the impetus of the shake-up
> > that "quibble12345" mentioned, and I certainly believe that the
> > analytics market is dangerously close to being polluted with
vendors
> > unlikely to succeed, some of my best friends are vendors and I'd
> > hate to see them fail ;-)
> >
> > I'm interested to hear what the vendors have to say.  Those of you
> > on the list, if you care to speak up, make a case for why the
> > feature/function wars aren't over and how you're gonna continue to
> > innovate and stay ahead of the pack.  I dare ya.  I double-dog
dare
> > ya.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "quibble12345" <aablank@h...>
> > wrote:
> > > It seems as if all of the services are starting to offer all of
the
> > > same features (albeit some better than others).  How can one
offer
> > a
> > > feature that isn't immediately copied by the others?  Eventually
> > there
> > > will be a shake out.
> > >
> > > Currently we use Omniture for some clients.  It is pretty good,
> > > especially compared to WebTrends.  We will be using Coremetrics
in
> > the
> > > future.  It has the reputation for being the BEST for
e-commerce.
> > > Why?  I can't tell a difference from the literature.
> > >
> > > The Jupiter Research study mentioned G2 as the ultimate.
> > Coremetrics
> > > has external hooks as well.  So ...
> > >
> > > I've heard that Double Click could be the 800lbs gorilla in the
> > future
> > > given their resources.  So I'm not so sure what to think.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson" <eric@w...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Hey folks,
> > > >
> > > > So I've seen some support on the list recently for
WebSideStory's
> > > HBX
> > > > application which is nice, good to see people asking about
these
> > > > applications - especially from overseas.  I'm wondering, are
any
> > of
> > > you
> > > > folks using less traditional applications -- apps from vendors
> > like
> > > Urchin,
> > > > SPSS, Visual Sciences, ClickTracks or perhaps Visitor Village
> > (ok,
> > > I'm
> > > > kidding about the latter, really ;-)
> > > >
> > > > It's hard for me to believe that we're all using the same set
of
> > > > applications given the diversity of the competitive landscape
...
> > > >
> > > > Also, Bryan Eisenberg sent me a link to a humorous blog
focused
> > on
> > > Web
> > > > analytics (at times).  Check this out:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/
06/its_not_like_ba.html
> > <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/
06/its_not_like_ba.html>
> > >
> > > > http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/
> > <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/>
> > > its_not_like_ba.html
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Eric
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> > Web Metrics Discussion Group
> > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
> > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
> > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
> > <http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> >
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129vp561t/M=295196.
4901138.6071305.3001176
> /D=gr
> >
>
oups/S=1705005582:HM/EXP=1088650339/A=2128215/R=0/
SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/compa
>
> > nion.yahoo.com> click here
> >
> >
> >
> >
> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176
> /D=groups/S=
> > :HM/A=2128215/rand=625682295>
> >
> >
> >
> >   _____
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > *          To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics/
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics/>
> >
> > *          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:webanalytics-unsubscribe@...
om?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > *          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
> Service
> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Web Metrics Discussion Group
> Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
> Author, Web Analytics Demystified
> http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links

Forgive me if you've said this already, but what firm do you work for?



                       quibble12345
                       <aablank@hotmail.        To:      
webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                       com>                     cc:
                                                Subject:  [webanalytics] Re: What
applications are other people using?
                       06/30/2004 05:43
                       PM
                       Please respond to
                       webanalytics






Certainly I can't commit to any vendor, as my firm helps many clients
with analytics packages of their own choice.  I have to be adept at a
number of tools that is growing all of the time.  I agree with Matt,
Omniture is really good.  But I can't say that it's best.

In my previous message, I was relaying my frustration with the
communication about and marketing of these tools.  There is a big
silence about who to use because of a lack of experience in the market.

Matt is right about the opportunity to educate.  There seems to be
downright fear from the vendors regarding showing too much of a sample
report on a web site (some offline dataminers do it too).  A lot of
the claims all sound the same.  The differences are not sharply apparent.

If there's a lack of experience in the market, put up a demo to let
people try it out.  The way I see it, if a company really thinks its
product is the best in the market, show it off (take a look at
http://www.spss.com/clementine/, they do).  Don't worry about the
competition, they'll see it anyway.  Worry about getting the target
users interested in your tool.  Right now the market is wide open.

Granted, it's not like buying a fries and a Coke.  I know it requires
explanation, but in what analogous market does it make sense to hide
the actual product?


--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Matt Belkin <mbelkin@m...> wrote:
> The "feature/function" wars are definitely not over.  What we've
seen thus
> far is just the tip of iceberg for Web Analytics.  As John Mellor notes,
> "web analytics is in its infancy".  This is unquestionably true.  But I
> think the whole notion of "feature/function" wars is sort of
misplaced.  The
> future of Web Analytics is really much deeper than just the top vendors
> adding similar features in each product rev.  It's about expanding
customer
> needs, how vendors can meet those needs, and the web analytics adoption
> lifecycle.
>
>
>
> While it's true that many Web Analytics vendor appear very similar
on paper,
> if you actually use the products, you'll realize just how different they
> are.  There are fundamental architecture differences that allow
companies
> like Omniture to perform better than say, coreMetrics.
Unfortunately, while
> this competitive advantage (among many others) allows Omniture to
remain the
> market leader, they must also step up to that opportunity and help
prospects
> like "quibble1235" understand why they are better.  That is not a
> "feature/function" issue - it is a question of educating the market and
> moving customers along the adoption lifecycle.
>
>
> This is no small issue - on one end of the spectrum (the laggards),
I still
> hear people talk about "how many hits their website gets".  Fortune 500
> companies are still using log files to track IP addresses (unaware
that log
> files are worthless). These folks are months if not years away from
> realizing the capabilities available in Web Analytics packages like
> Omniture.
>
>
>
> At the other end of the spectrum, companies like Macromedia are
constantly
> pushing the envelope of Web Analytics.  We're focused on how we can
leverage
> Web Analytics to fill the enormous void in Marketing and Customer
Analytics.
> This means not just website traffic, but any online activities where we
> communicate with customers. Virtual seminars, customer support, blogs,
> eLearning, etc.  And we're not just talking about online.  This also
means
> offline as well.  Take a look at companies like Cognos, SAS, and
epiphany.
> These folks provide critical offline customer intelligence
capabilities -
> mostly on the back-end with data warehouses.  Direct sales, customer
> service, finance, events, public relations - these are all customer
> touchpoints that we care about, but that Web Analytics has no view into.
> True, vendors like Omniture, WebSideStory, and CoreMetrics are
making some
> in-roads here, but we're still way off.
>
>
>
> Success in this market will be defined by how well vendors address these
> expanding customer needs - that's the reality.  And as long as those
needs
> change and evolve, the "feature/function" wars will never be over.
>
>
>
> Finally, "quibble12345", I would advise you to do a little more hands-on
> research before arbitrarily committing to a vendor because they are
> allegedly the "BEST for eCommerce".  Customer retention is a good
place to
> start.
>
>
>
> - Matt.
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: Eric Peterson [mailto:eric.peterson@g...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 7:52 PM
> To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [webanalytics] Re: What applications are other people using?
>
>
>
> This is an interesting trend that comes up more and more often - the
> idea that the feature/function wars are now nearly over and nobody
> won.  While not necessarily true today - I can think of several
> vendors that I personally believe still have competitive advantages
> from a feature/function standpoint (and no, I'm not going to name
> them by name, sorry) - vendors do appear to be heading rapidly in
> that direction.
>
> So is this a good thing or a bad thing?
>
> Me, I'm not 100% sure.  While one one hand I'm in favor of feature
> parity because it will force vendors to differentiate themselves
> along more substantial lines - service, training and
> implementation/installation support.  I also fear parity because it
> will likely cause further price erosion in a market that has already
> seen a substatial decline in gross profitability in the last handful
> of years.  While surely this will be the impetus of the shake-up
> that "quibble12345" mentioned, and I certainly believe that the
> analytics market is dangerously close to being polluted with vendors
> unlikely to succeed, some of my best friends are vendors and I'd
> hate to see them fail ;-)
>
> I'm interested to hear what the vendors have to say.  Those of you
> on the list, if you care to speak up, make a case for why the
> feature/function wars aren't over and how you're gonna continue to
> innovate and stay ahead of the pack.  I dare ya.  I double-dog dare
> ya.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "quibble12345" <aablank@h...>
> wrote:
> > It seems as if all of the services are starting to offer all of the
> > same features (albeit some better than others).  How can one offer
> a
> > feature that isn't immediately copied by the others?  Eventually
> there
> > will be a shake out.
> >
> > Currently we use Omniture for some clients.  It is pretty good,
> > especially compared to WebTrends.  We will be using Coremetrics in
> the
> > future.  It has the reputation for being the BEST for e-commerce.
> > Why?  I can't tell a difference from the literature.
> >
> > The Jupiter Research study mentioned G2 as the ultimate.
> Coremetrics
> > has external hooks as well.  So ...
> >
> > I've heard that Double Click could be the 800lbs gorilla in the
> future
> > given their resources.  So I'm not so sure what to think.
> >
> >
> > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson" <eric@w...>
> > wrote:
> > > Hey folks,
> > >
> > > So I've seen some support on the list recently for WebSideStory's
> > HBX
> > > application which is nice, good to see people asking about these
> > > applications - especially from overseas.  I'm wondering, are any
> of
> > you
> > > folks using less traditional applications -- apps from vendors
> like
> > Urchin,
> > > SPSS, Visual Sciences, ClickTracks or perhaps Visitor Village
> (ok,
> > I'm
> > > kidding about the latter, really ;-)
> > >
> > > It's hard for me to believe that we're all using the same set of
> > > applications given the diversity of the competitive landscape ...
> > >
> > > Also, Bryan Eisenberg sent me a link to a humorous blog focused
> on
> > Web
> > > analytics (at times).  Check this out:
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html
> <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html>
> >
> > > http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/
> <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/>
> > its_not_like_ba.html
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Eric
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Web Metrics Discussion Group
> Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
> Author, Web Analytics Demystified
> http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
> <http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com>
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>
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---------------------------------------
Web Metrics Discussion Group
Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
Author, Web Analytics Demystified
http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

Certainly I can't commit to any vendor, as my firm helps many clients
with analytics packages of their own choice.  I have to be adept at a
number of tools that is growing all of the time.  I agree with Matt,
Omniture is really good.  But I can't say that it's best.

In my previous message, I was relaying my frustration with the
communication about and marketing of these tools.  There is a big
silence about who to use because of a lack of experience in the market.

Matt is right about the opportunity to educate.  There seems to be
downright fear from the vendors regarding showing too much of a sample
report on a web site (some offline dataminers do it too).  A lot of
the claims all sound the same.  The differences are not sharply apparent.

If there's a lack of experience in the market, put up a demo to let
people try it out.  The way I see it, if a company really thinks its
product is the best in the market, show it off (take a look at
http://www.spss.com/clementine/, they do).  Don't worry about the
competition, they'll see it anyway.  Worry about getting the target
users interested in your tool.  Right now the market is wide open.

Granted, it's not like buying a fries and a Coke.  I know it requires
explanation, but in what analogous market does it make sense to hide
the actual product?


--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Matt Belkin <mbelkin@m...> wrote:
> The "feature/function" wars are definitely not over.  What we've
seen thus
> far is just the tip of iceberg for Web Analytics.  As John Mellor notes,
> "web analytics is in its infancy".  This is unquestionably true.  But I
> think the whole notion of "feature/function" wars is sort of
misplaced.  The
> future of Web Analytics is really much deeper than just the top vendors
> adding similar features in each product rev.  It's about expanding
customer
> needs, how vendors can meet those needs, and the web analytics adoption
> lifecycle.
>
>
>
> While it's true that many Web Analytics vendor appear very similar
on paper,
> if you actually use the products, you'll realize just how different they
> are.  There are fundamental architecture differences that allow
companies
> like Omniture to perform better than say, coreMetrics.
Unfortunately, while
> this competitive advantage (among many others) allows Omniture to
remain the
> market leader, they must also step up to that opportunity and help
prospects
> like "quibble1235" understand why they are better.  That is not a
> "feature/function" issue - it is a question of educating the market and
> moving customers along the adoption lifecycle.
>
>
> This is no small issue - on one end of the spectrum (the laggards),
I still
> hear people talk about "how many hits their website gets".  Fortune 500
> companies are still using log files to track IP addresses (unaware
that log
> files are worthless). These folks are months if not years away from
> realizing the capabilities available in Web Analytics packages like
> Omniture.
>
>
>
> At the other end of the spectrum, companies like Macromedia are
constantly
> pushing the envelope of Web Analytics.  We're focused on how we can
leverage
> Web Analytics to fill the enormous void in Marketing and Customer
Analytics.
> This means not just website traffic, but any online activities where we
> communicate with customers. Virtual seminars, customer support, blogs,
> eLearning, etc.  And we're not just talking about online.  This also
means
> offline as well.  Take a look at companies like Cognos, SAS, and
epiphany.
> These folks provide critical offline customer intelligence
capabilities -
> mostly on the back-end with data warehouses.  Direct sales, customer
> service, finance, events, public relations - these are all customer
> touchpoints that we care about, but that Web Analytics has no view into.
> True, vendors like Omniture, WebSideStory, and CoreMetrics are
making some
> in-roads here, but we're still way off.
>
>
>
> Success in this market will be defined by how well vendors address these
> expanding customer needs - that's the reality.  And as long as those
needs
> change and evolve, the "feature/function" wars will never be over.
>
>
>
> Finally, "quibble12345", I would advise you to do a little more hands-on
> research before arbitrarily committing to a vendor because they are
> allegedly the "BEST for eCommerce".  Customer retention is a good
place to
> start.
>
>
>
> - Matt.
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: Eric Peterson [mailto:eric.peterson@g...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 7:52 PM
> To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [webanalytics] Re: What applications are other people using?
>
>
>
> This is an interesting trend that comes up more and more often - the
> idea that the feature/function wars are now nearly over and nobody
> won.  While not necessarily true today - I can think of several
> vendors that I personally believe still have competitive advantages
> from a feature/function standpoint (and no, I'm not going to name
> them by name, sorry) - vendors do appear to be heading rapidly in
> that direction.
>
> So is this a good thing or a bad thing?
>
> Me, I'm not 100% sure.  While one one hand I'm in favor of feature
> parity because it will force vendors to differentiate themselves
> along more substantial lines - service, training and
> implementation/installation support.  I also fear parity because it
> will likely cause further price erosion in a market that has already
> seen a substatial decline in gross profitability in the last handful
> of years.  While surely this will be the impetus of the shake-up
> that "quibble12345" mentioned, and I certainly believe that the
> analytics market is dangerously close to being polluted with vendors
> unlikely to succeed, some of my best friends are vendors and I'd
> hate to see them fail ;-)
>
> I'm interested to hear what the vendors have to say.  Those of you
> on the list, if you care to speak up, make a case for why the
> feature/function wars aren't over and how you're gonna continue to
> innovate and stay ahead of the pack.  I dare ya.  I double-dog dare
> ya.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "quibble12345" <aablank@h...>
> wrote:
> > It seems as if all of the services are starting to offer all of the
> > same features (albeit some better than others).  How can one offer
> a
> > feature that isn't immediately copied by the others?  Eventually
> there
> > will be a shake out.
> >
> > Currently we use Omniture for some clients.  It is pretty good,
> > especially compared to WebTrends.  We will be using Coremetrics in
> the
> > future.  It has the reputation for being the BEST for e-commerce.
> > Why?  I can't tell a difference from the literature.
> >
> > The Jupiter Research study mentioned G2 as the ultimate.
> Coremetrics
> > has external hooks as well.  So ...
> >
> > I've heard that Double Click could be the 800lbs gorilla in the
> future
> > given their resources.  So I'm not so sure what to think.
> >
> >
> > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson" <eric@w...>
> > wrote:
> > > Hey folks,
> > >
> > > So I've seen some support on the list recently for WebSideStory's
> > HBX
> > > application which is nice, good to see people asking about these
> > > applications - especially from overseas.  I'm wondering, are any
> of
> > you
> > > folks using less traditional applications -- apps from vendors
> like
> > Urchin,
> > > SPSS, Visual Sciences, ClickTracks or perhaps Visitor Village
> (ok,
> > I'm
> > > kidding about the latter, really ;-)
> > >
> > > It's hard for me to believe that we're all using the same set of
> > > applications given the diversity of the competitive landscape ...
> > >
> > > Also, Bryan Eisenberg sent me a link to a humorous blog focused
> on
> > Web
> > > analytics (at times).  Check this out:
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html
> <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html>
> >
> > > http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/
> <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/>
> > its_not_like_ba.html
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Eric
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Web Metrics Discussion Group
> Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
> Author, Web Analytics Demystified
> http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
> <http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
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>
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> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

I can't resist a double-dog dare!

So, if I take the position that the functionality to be added to our
web analytics solution (Omniture's SiteCatalyst) has somehow
plateaued, then I should tell our customers they can stop making
feature requests and our engineering team they can cancel those 15+
outstanding positions they're rushing to hire.  Right?  Wrong!

We've found that answers breed questions and questions demand greater
and greater functionality to dive deeper and integrate with other
areas/datamarts in the enterprise.  Now I could say we just have an
extraordinarily smart user base (eBay, WalMart, Macromedia, HP, GM,
Nike, Gannett, CBS Sportsline, etc.) and therefore our product gets
pushed harder than most, but I'm afraid you'd see through that ;-)

The good news for everyone is that web analytics is in its infancy.
As users, we've pushed passed page views and unique visitors, but
we're still pretty proud of optimizing campaigns through A/B testing -
  and rightly so, but there's SOOO much more to achieve.  In my view,
we've gone from 1 bit to 8 bit gray scale yet the whole color
spectrum is ahead of us.  A company's online channel is a microcosm
of their whole business - it includes marketing, sales, support,
finance, etc. - and is 100x more measurable than those same business
components in the offline world.  For example, when the online store
of a retail chain begins to account for 10 - 20% of that chain's
gross revenue, people start to pay attention.  And when that 10 - 20%
has a COMPLETE understanding of the activities that created the
demand, and eventually led to site behavior and/or purchase, we
understand why customers call our product 'Crack-iture'.  Web
analytics is one of the purest sources of REAL customer behavior
information ever and everyone wants to have it.

The lines of web analytics were originally drawn around IT (those
poor guys) and have gradually migrated to include online marketing.
Those lines are rapidly expanding to include product development,
inventory management, finance, content programming, offline
marketing, etc, etc.  If anything, we see that accelerating the need
for innovation in product and also in training systems.

We innovate because we have to.  Not to beat the competition, but to
satisfy the needs of the industry's most prestigious customer base.
Beating the competition is just a nice side benefit ;-)

JM

--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson"
<eric.peterson@g...> wrote:
> This is an interesting trend that comes up more and more often -
the
> idea that the feature/function wars are now nearly over and nobody
> won.  While not necessarily true today - I can think of several
> vendors that I personally believe still have competitive advantages
> from a feature/function standpoint (and no, I'm not going to name
> them by name, sorry) - vendors do appear to be heading rapidly in
> that direction.
>
> So is this a good thing or a bad thing?
>
> Me, I'm not 100% sure.  While one one hand I'm in favor of feature
> parity because it will force vendors to differentiate themselves
> along more substantial lines - service, training and
> implementation/installation support.  I also fear parity because it
> will likely cause further price erosion in a market that has
already
> seen a substatial decline in gross profitability in the last
handful
> of years.  While surely this will be the impetus of the shake-up
> that "quibble12345" mentioned, and I certainly believe that the
> analytics market is dangerously close to being polluted with
vendors
> unlikely to succeed, some of my best friends are vendors and I'd
> hate to see them fail ;-)
>
> I'm interested to hear what the vendors have to say.  Those of you
> on the list, if you care to speak up, make a case for why the
> feature/function wars aren't over and how you're gonna continue to
> innovate and stay ahead of the pack.  I dare ya.  I double-dog dare
> ya.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "quibble12345" <aablank@h...>
> wrote:
> > It seems as if all of the services are starting to offer all of
the
> > same features (albeit some better than others).  How can one
offer
> a
> > feature that isn't immediately copied by the others?  Eventually
> there
> > will be a shake out.
> >
> > Currently we use Omniture for some clients.  It is pretty good,
> > especially compared to WebTrends.  We will be using Coremetrics
in
> the
> > future.  It has the reputation for being the BEST for e-commerce.
> > Why?  I can't tell a difference from the literature.
> >
> > The Jupiter Research study mentioned G2 as the ultimate.
> Coremetrics
> > has external hooks as well.  So ...
> >
> > I've heard that Double Click could be the 800lbs gorilla in the
> future
> > given their resources.  So I'm not so sure what to think.
> >
> >
> > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson" <eric@w...>
> > wrote:
> > > Hey folks,
> > >
> > > So I've seen some support on the list recently for
WebSideStory's
> > HBX
> > > application which is nice, good to see people asking about these
> > > applications - especially from overseas.  I'm wondering, are
any
> of
> > you
> > > folks using less traditional applications -- apps from vendors
> like
> > Urchin,
> > > SPSS, Visual Sciences, ClickTracks or perhaps Visitor Village
> (ok,
> > I'm
> > > kidding about the latter, really ;-)
> > >
> > > It's hard for me to believe that we're all using the same set of
> > > applications given the diversity of the competitive
landscape ...
> > >
> > > Also, Bryan Eisenberg sent me a link to a humorous blog focused
> on
> > Web
> > > analytics (at times).  Check this out:
> > >
> > >
> >
>
<http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html
> >
> > > http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/
> > its_not_like_ba.html
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Eric

This is an interesting trend that comes up more and more often - the
idea that the feature/function wars are now nearly over and nobody
won.  While not necessarily true today - I can think of several
vendors that I personally believe still have competitive advantages
from a feature/function standpoint (and no, I'm not going to name
them by name, sorry) - vendors do appear to be heading rapidly in
that direction.

So is this a good thing or a bad thing?

Me, I'm not 100% sure.  While one one hand I'm in favor of feature
parity because it will force vendors to differentiate themselves
along more substantial lines - service, training and
implementation/installation support.  I also fear parity because it
will likely cause further price erosion in a market that has already
seen a substatial decline in gross profitability in the last handful
of years.  While surely this will be the impetus of the shake-up
that "quibble12345" mentioned, and I certainly believe that the
analytics market is dangerously close to being polluted with vendors
unlikely to succeed, some of my best friends are vendors and I'd
hate to see them fail ;-)

I'm interested to hear what the vendors have to say.  Those of you
on the list, if you care to speak up, make a case for why the
feature/function wars aren't over and how you're gonna continue to
innovate and stay ahead of the pack.  I dare ya.  I double-dog dare
ya.

Eric








--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "quibble12345" <aablank@h...>
wrote:
> It seems as if all of the services are starting to offer all of the
> same features (albeit some better than others).  How can one offer
a
> feature that isn't immediately copied by the others?  Eventually
there
> will be a shake out.
>
> Currently we use Omniture for some clients.  It is pretty good,
> especially compared to WebTrends.  We will be using Coremetrics in
the
> future.  It has the reputation for being the BEST for e-commerce.
> Why?  I can't tell a difference from the literature.
>
> The Jupiter Research study mentioned G2 as the ultimate.
Coremetrics
> has external hooks as well.  So ...
>
> I've heard that Double Click could be the 800lbs gorilla in the
future
> given their resources.  So I'm not so sure what to think.
>
>
> --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson" <eric@w...>
> wrote:
> > Hey folks,
> >
> > So I've seen some support on the list recently for WebSideStory's
> HBX
> > application which is nice, good to see people asking about these
> > applications - especially from overseas.  I'm wondering, are any
of
> you
> > folks using less traditional applications -- apps from vendors
like
> Urchin,
> > SPSS, Visual Sciences, ClickTracks or perhaps Visitor Village
(ok,
> I'm
> > kidding about the latter, really ;-)
> >
> > It's hard for me to believe that we're all using the same set of
> > applications given the diversity of the competitive landscape ...
> >
> > Also, Bryan Eisenberg sent me a link to a humorous blog focused
on
> Web
> > analytics (at times).  Check this out:
> >
> >
>
<http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html
>
> > http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/
> its_not_like_ba.html
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Eric

Well, no wonder this similarity appears. Vendors try to follow what
marketers need (or believe they do), and read all the stuff published
by analytics gurus (and Chief Inspirators), such as Eric Peterson,
Jim Novo, Jim Sterne, and Bryan Eisenberg. It is normal then (and
healthy, believe me!) that software developers orient the features
accordingly.

As for me, if I had to point to a future trend, I would very much go
toward customer retention analysis (not my idea, of course, but Jim
Novo's), and especially predictive modeling (VERY useful when it
comes to predict churn). I've seen interesting things, such as SPSS's
Clementine (with the web module, I don't mean NetGenesis).

At some point, I guess Web analytics vendors will get there, because
that's where the BI world is, and they're coming after the web.

JW

--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "quibble12345" <aablank@h...>
wrote:
> It seems as if all of the services are starting to offer all of the
> same features (albeit some better than others).  How can one offer a
> feature that isn't immediately copied by the others?  Eventually
there
> will be a shake out.
>
> Currently we use Omniture for some clients.  It is pretty good,
> especially compared to WebTrends.  We will be using Coremetrics in
the
> future.  It has the reputation for being the BEST for e-commerce.
> Why?  I can't tell a difference from the literature.
>
> The Jupiter Research study mentioned G2 as the ultimate.
Coremetrics
> has external hooks as well.  So ...
>
> I've heard that Double Click could be the 800lbs gorilla in the
future
> given their resources.  So I'm not so sure what to think.
>
>
> --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson" <eric@w...>
> wrote:
> > Hey folks,
> >
> > So I've seen some support on the list recently for WebSideStory's
> HBX
> > application which is nice, good to see people asking about these
> > applications - especially from overseas.  I'm wondering, are any
of
> you
> > folks using less traditional applications -- apps from vendors
like
> Urchin,
> > SPSS, Visual Sciences, ClickTracks or perhaps Visitor Village (ok,
> I'm
> > kidding about the latter, really ;-)
> >
> > It's hard for me to believe that we're all using the same set of
> > applications given the diversity of the competitive landscape ...
> >
> > Also, Bryan Eisenberg sent me a link to a humorous blog focused on
> Web
> > analytics (at times).  Check this out:
> >
> >
>
<http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html>
> > http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/
> its_not_like_ba.html
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Eric

It seems as if all of the services are starting to offer all of the
same features (albeit some better than others).  How can one offer a
feature that isn't immediately copied by the others?  Eventually there
will be a shake out.

Currently we use Omniture for some clients.  It is pretty good,
especially compared to WebTrends.  We will be using Coremetrics in the
future.  It has the reputation for being the BEST for e-commerce.
Why?  I can't tell a difference from the literature.

The Jupiter Research study mentioned G2 as the ultimate.  Coremetrics
has external hooks as well.  So ...

I've heard that Double Click could be the 800lbs gorilla in the future
given their resources.  So I'm not so sure what to think.


--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson" <eric@w...>
wrote:
> Hey folks,
>
> So I've seen some support on the list recently for WebSideStory's
HBX
> application which is nice, good to see people asking about these
> applications - especially from overseas.  I'm wondering, are any of
you
> folks using less traditional applications -- apps from vendors like
Urchin,
> SPSS, Visual Sciences, ClickTracks or perhaps Visitor Village (ok,
I'm
> kidding about the latter, really ;-)
>
> It's hard for me to believe that we're all using the same set of
> applications given the diversity of the competitive landscape ...
>
> Also, Bryan Eisenberg sent me a link to a humorous blog focused on
Web
> analytics (at times).  Check this out:
>
>
<http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html>
> http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/
its_not_like_ba.html
>
> Cheers,
>
> Eric

Thank you for your contributions of the discussion list. The first
question is one that is wondering along my mind for a while now. I am
in the process of selecting a vendor for web analytics and love to
hear of everyone what their experience is.

Until now I saw two vendors: WebTrends and Websidestory (HBX).

 The
latter I liked better. Why? It is browser based. You did not have to
buy an extra server to run your logfiles analyzer (as in WebTrends)
and you can generate reports automatically, even for particular parts
of your web site. Quite useful, if you are, like me, in a world wide
organisation.

But, there is a LOT in the HBX solution. My question is: do you use
all that information or do you concentrate on a few Key Performance
Indicators for your website, and which are these?

 And last, but not
least: the budget issue. HBX can deliver more than WebTrends for
less.

I know conversion (for sales) is one to look after, but what if you
are working on a website that has not got a store on-line? (yes
again, my situation).

Another question I have is how to 'train' and 'educate' people from
around the world to 'read' web analytics reports.

Please share!
Thanks in advance, I am looking forward to read your stories.

Dear Eric, and hello all

Thank you for your contributions of the discussion list. The first
question is one that is wondering along my mind for a while now. I am
in the process of selecting a vendor for web analytics and love to
hear of everyone what their experience is.

Until now I saw two vendors: WebTrends and Websidestory (HBX). The
latter I liked better. Why? It is browser based. You did not have to
buy an extra server to run your logfiles analyzer (as in WebTrends)
and you can generate reports automatically, even for particular parts
of your web site. Quite useful, if you are, like me, in a world wide
organisation.

But, there is a LOT in the HBX solution. My question is: do you use
all that information or do you concentrate on a few Key Performance
Indicators for your website, and which are these? And last, but not
least: the budget issue. HBX can deliver more than WebTrends for
less.

I know conversion (for sales) is one to look after, but what if you
are working on a website that has not got a store on-line? (yes
again, my situation).

Another question I have is how to 'train' and 'educate' people from
around the world to 'read' web analytics reports. Please share!
Thanks in advance, I am looking forward to read your stories.

Kind regards,
Natalie Huijsman
Business Development Assistant
ABN AMRO Trust: Your Service Provider of Choice





---------------------------------------
Web Metrics Discussion Group
Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
Author, Web Analytics Demystified
http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com

Dear Eric, and hello all

Thank you for your contributions of the discussion list. The first
question is one that is wondering along my mind for a while now. I am
in the process of selecting a vendor for web analytics and love to
hear of everyone what their experience is.

Until now I saw two vendors: WebTrends and Websidestory (HBX). The
latter I liked better. Why? It is browser based. You did not have to
buy an extra server to run your logfiles analyzer (as in WebTrends)
and you can generate reports automatically, even for particular parts
of your web site. Quite useful, if you are, like me, in a world wide
organisation.

But, there is a LOT in the HBX solution. My question is: do you use
all that information or do you concentrate on a few Key Performance
Indicators for your website, and which are these? And last, but not
least: the budget issue. HBX can deliver more than WebTrends for
less.

I know conversion (for sales) is one to look after, but what if you
are working on a website that has not got a store on-line? (yes
again, my situation).

Another question I have is how to 'train' and 'educate' people from
around the world to 'read' web analytics reports. Please share!
Thanks in advance, I am looking forward to read your stories.

Kind regards,
Natalie Huijsman
Business Development Assistant
ABN AMRO Trust: Your Service Provider of Choice

Reto,

Your projects sounds noteworthy.  Here are a few thoughts -

1. Interviewing CIOs? I'm not sure this is the best approach.  Clearly you
need consensus from within any organization before you embrace an Analytics
solution and CIOs will want to approve the vendor you choose. But relative
to where you get the biggest bang for your Analytics buck, CIOs are not the
core audience.  It's Marketing (in my opinion).  After all, the web isn't
just a cool technology - it's a critical customer relationship channel.  And
that's what marketing cares about most - communicating with customers and
building new relationships.  So make sure to spend some time with CMOs
(Chief Marketing Officers), VPs of Marketing, and people in the trenches
like campaign producers, managers, product marketing managers, etc.  Those
are the folks that will really be using the Analytics solution to make
decisions that will earn the company money.  As a case in point, every CIO
I've worked with on Analytics has never actually used the system once it was
live.

2. Prototype architecture and NetGen datawarehouse?  Analytics is all about
measuring, setting KPIs or baselines, and optimizing around those KPIs.
That's it.  I would not recommend designing a complicated Web Analytics
implementation that requires a NetGen warehouse. Skip the log files, and go
with a super flexible tagging-based ASP solution like Omniture.  If Omniture
is too high-end, maybe consider a more entry level solution like WebTrends
or FireClick. Vendors like Omniture have already done the heavy lifting for
you.  Speaking from a painful experience with NetGenesis myself, you will
not get that with their solution or any solution with a massive data
warehouse.

3. Company to implement this architecture?  Not sure what you mean by this,
but when it comes to implementation, here is what I recommend.  Scope out
your business requirements when you're speaking with the various marketing
folks.  In most cases, you'll need to listen to what they are saying, then
work with them to translate that into KPIs.  For example, if the campaign
manager says "I need to measure the success of my campaign", you need to ask
what they mean by success?  Is it click-thrus? Sales leads? Direct eCommerce
revenues? Whitepaper downloads?  And how does that change across products?
Once you figure that out, architect your solution around their needs - not
around what the product can do.  That's one of the biggest mistakes people
make.  They get caught up in all the bells and whistles of a product, and
forget the basics of Analytics - measure, baseline, optimize.

Good luck,

Matt Belkin
Director, Marketing Analytics
Macromedia

-----Original Message-----
From: retowettstein
To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 6/25/2004 4:27 PM
Subject: [webanalytics] Webanalytics Summer-Termproject with NetGen & Cognos

Hello everybody,
as a student (business administration & it) at the University of
Zurich (Switzerland)I'm not that webanalyst yet, but a classmate and I
are going to run a termproject about webanalytics this summer. First
we are going to interview some CIOs of Swiss portals to evaluate
market needs. Second we present them our prototype architecture we
would like to implement to measure their website. It would consist of
a data warehouse (realized with NetGen) and a web score card (with
cognos). Third, we are looking for a company who would let us to
implement this architecture.

Now my questions:

1. What do you think about our idea?
2. What about the architecture?
3. What would you advise us? Do's & dont's? Recommendations?

Thank you very much to share your knowledge with us!

Best regards from Zurich,

Reto

--

Reto Wettstein
cand.inform.
University Of Zurich




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Hey, great to see activity right out of the chute!  Very cool ...

Braden Hoeppner, talking about what he likes about WebSideStory's HBX,
makes an *** excellent *** point regarding metrics usage within ***
any *** organization.  The important excerpt:

"... if a company doesn't have someone who can really dig deep into what
is happening on their site, they won't get the value out of HBX.
Signing up for an expensive analytics program will do you no good
unless you have the expertise in your organization to use it.
Understanding what all the metrics show and how to action change
from them requires some expertise"

It is still extrememly common for companies to invest tens if not
hundreds of thousands of dollars into analytics applications and hope
that they are a "silver bullet" that will automagically improve their
Web sites.  Folks, I'm here to tell you all, too few companies truly
understand how and where the positive return on investment is in Web
analytics.  I mean, why would I have written an entire book on ths
subject if we all already "got it"?

Matt Belkin, someone who's opinion about analytics I respect
tremendously, commented about the recent Forrester report:

"It's almost like buying Air Jordans and suddenly you're able to
slamdunk a basketball just because you've got the same shoes as
Michael. Just doesn't work that way."

A) Matt's right, your results will almost certainly vary and B) I
guess I should return the Air Jordans and give up on my hoop dreams
;-)  Seriously though, we all know that sample bias is introduced in
analyst reports but it's the analysts job to minimize that bias and
try and paint a complete picture of, well, whatever we're
pontificating upon at the time.

Reto Wettstein painted an interesting picture of a project that they'd
like to engage in.  While I think it does sounds like a great idea, I
agree with Dustin in that it will likely be difficult to execute on
but talking about key performance indicators is in everyone's best
interests.

Finally, our rolling scorecard on analytics solutions:

      WebSideStory HBX - 8 out of 10 (1)
      Omniture's SiteCatalyst - 10 out of 10 (1)
      Overture's Keylime - 0.5 out of 10 (1)

I think we need some additional data points to fill this out.  Anyone
else care to comment on how likely they are to recommend their
analytics vendor/solution on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being best)?

Thanks!

Eric
--
Eric T. Peterson
Author, Web Analytics Demystified
www.webanalyticsdemystified.com

Hello Reto,

Sounds like you and your classmate are way ahead of the curve, nice
job.

Your plan sounds reasonable but I highly doubt it will work.  Most
companies have very limited IT resources so projects are hard to get
approved.  As company outsiders, it would be difficult to get your
project off the ground even if is the smartest move.

I would look for a company the already has web analytics software
installed but does not use the data to make business decisions.  You
could analyze the software implementation and make recommendations.
Or simply analyze their data and show them why it is valuable.

Making companies aware of Key Performance Indicators is a huge step
in the right direction and would be a more achievable goal for your
project.


Good Luck




--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "retowettstein" <wetti@a...>
wrote:
> Hello everybody,
> as a student (business administration & it) at the University of
> Zurich (Switzerland)I'm not that webanalyst yet, but a classmate
and I
> are going to run a termproject about webanalytics this summer. First
> we are going to interview some CIOs of Swiss portals to evaluate
> market needs. Second we present them our prototype architecture we
> would like to implement to measure their website. It would consist
of
> a data warehouse (realized with NetGen) and a web score card (with
> cognos). Third, we are looking for a company who would let us to
> implement this architecture.
>
> Now my questions:
>
> 1. What do you think about our idea?
> 2. What about the architecture?
> 3. What would you advise us? Do's & dont's? Recommendations?
>
> Thank you very much to share your knowledge with us!
>
> Best regards from Zurich,
>
> Reto
>
> --
>
> Reto Wettstein
> cand.inform.
> University Of Zurich

Hi All,

I'm Director of Operations of an niche e-commerce site ("make it
easy
to find the product, and easy to buy  the product" is my
mantra—drive the sales with off/online targeted marketing)
within a
publishing company that has another 25 or so sites (mostly
news
content/subscription/registration/advertising driven)

We currently use "Summary" as our log file analysis tool, but we
have so much data its becoming unmangeable. Also, it's a basic
tool and obviously does not have the sort of marketing tools and
interface that 's needed for actionable metrics.  Oh, and I use
Clicktracks for my site.

I'm currently evaluating vendors for a Web analytics solution and
wanted to let you know that I've found the following report very
helpful in assessing  vendors: "Buyer's Guide to Web Analytics"
published by Marketing Sherpa. It costs 220 dollars, but was
worth the expenditure however bewildering (my eyes crossed) at
first glance!

F.Y.I. My plan is  to short list 4 to 6 vendors, create a
features/spec matrix in Excel and then present that to the various
stakeholders. In addition, I and a coworker from another
company site are in the process of reveiwing demos that include
real data (as in ours!).

As for the debate on server side vs. client side tracking, I think
ultimately,  I will use a 3 pronged approach: Web log file analysis
with cookes, login authentication and client side tagging.

Input welcome!

Maggie

Hello everybody,
as a student (business administration & it) at the University of
Zurich (Switzerland)I'm not that webanalyst yet, but a classmate and I
are going to run a termproject about webanalytics this summer. First
we are going to interview some CIOs of Swiss portals to evaluate
market needs. Second we present them our prototype architecture we
would like to implement to measure their website. It would consist of
a data warehouse (realized with NetGen) and a web score card (with
cognos). Third, we are looking for a company who would let us to
implement this architecture.

Now my questions:

1. What do you think about our idea?
2. What about the architecture?
3. What would you advise us? Do's & dont's? Recommendations?

Thank you very much to share your knowledge with us!

Best regards from Zurich,

Reto

--

Reto Wettstein
cand.inform.
University Of Zurich

Ian, sorry to hear KeyLime isn't panning out.  We used KeyLime when
I was at Adobe (not by my choice), and considered it here at
Macromedia.  Neither experience was exceptional.  I would definitely
recommend Omniture.  At the very least, get yourself a demo.  I took
a look at your site and I think you could benefit from their
product - particularly by using Fallout reporting to optimize your
Loan Application process, and segmentation to isolate your
most valuable customer accounts and their behaviors.

Matt Belkin
Director, Marketing Analytics
Macromedia

Hey all -

At our site we use Overture's Keylime software.  On a scale of 1 -
10 on if I would recommend or not I would give a 0.5.

This is an ASP model, run with java page tags, and the tags
themselves  have caused many issues on load times to our site.  Many
times Keylime  does not get the reports updated for days and they
are many times inaccurate as well as limited, on top of this their
customer service is absolutely horrible.  We are beginning to assume
that Overture is getting out of the metrics business (at least
dropping Keylime) and that they simply no longer want anything to do
with us.

Needless to say we are actively searching for a new solution to
implement, so any suggestions anyone has would be great!!

Thanks

Ian Crowell

Hi all,

I wanted to throw my hat in the ring and chime in on Eric's message
below. First off, yes, the Forrester's assessment and methodology is
inherently biased.  Surveying companies that are exclusively
recommended by Analytics vendors is effectively the same as asking
the vendors themselves.  Also, in the interest of full disclosure, I
did participate in this study.

That is not to say there isn't value in Forrester's report.  I
thought the commentary on hosting vs. licensed, pricing, challenges,
and usage was all quite interesting.

But I think this is a tough sell for the average person looking at
Web Analytics.  Surveying some of the best customers in the industry
is not the same as surveying the industry.  Just because it took us
an average of 6 weeks to implement a solution, doesn't mean the
average customer will see the same turnaround (it actually took us
much less than 6 weeks but that was the average Forrester cited).
These are arguably the most advanced users in the market - read:
individual results may vary.  It's almost like buying Air Jordans
and suddenly you're able to slamdunk a basketball just because
you've got the same shoes as Michael.  Just doesn't work that way.

As for my satisfaction with Macromedia's Web Analytics solution - I
would say unequivocally "10".  I have used Omniture for nearly 2
years and it is unquestionably the best solution on the market
today.

Why am I so pleased with Omniture?  It's simple really - they offer
best-of-breed Web analytics across all 3 categories of Web
masurement - content and path optimization, marketing ROI, and
eCommerce analysis.

Matt Belkin
Director, Marketing Analytics
Macromedia

Now that I got that first post out of the way I wanted to propose an
initial topic of discussion ...

A peer of mine covering the analytics space recently published a
report that painted a very optimistic picture of analytics
application usage and satisfaction.  Specifically, regarding the
value and likelihood of recommending the respondents analytics
application, the majority of respondents indicated great value and a
high likelihood of recommendation ...

... why does this sound funny to me?  Perhaps because this author
asked the vendors for references and then he asked these references
how they felt about the vendors they were references for?!  Isn't
this kind of like asking my mom, who has never read my book, if Web
Analytics Demystified is the best piece of work published since
Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land?  Is there perhaps some
potential for sample bias?!

Anyway, not to pick on anyone or their strategy for collecting data
(since there is a good chance I'll blow it as well in my analytics
report) how about this question:

     "How likely are you, on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most
likely ) to recommend your analytics application?"

I'm interested in whom of you will strongly recommend your vendor's
offering and why.  I'm more interested in whom of you DO NOT
recommend your vendor's offering and WHY ...

Post like crazy, people ;-)

Eric T. Peterson
Author, Web Analytics Demystified
eric at webanalyticsdemystified.com
www.webanalyticsdemystified.com

Hi All,

We use HBX for our site, and on a scale of 1 to 10 I would rate it
as 8 (in terms of how likely I am to recommend it).

First off, I think that the tool is excellent - it provides some
very useful metrics & tools. Using the report builder, I can make
complex queries with the data collected and tell our story very
well. However, I think that there are a few areas that companies
should consider before jumping on board with HBX. (1) is cost. Small
upstart companies may be afraid of investing in such a product. (2)
if a company doesn't have someone who can really dig deep into what
is happening on their site, they won't get the value out of HBX.
Signing up for an expensive analytics program will do you no good
unless you have the expertise in your organization to use it.
Understanding what all the metrics show and how to action change
from them requires some expertise. Assigning a resource to mine data
from HBX & provide analysis will provide great returns but can be
costly for smaller companies. (3) There are a few bugs we've
discovered that make analytics difficult at times (ie. Page Views
being shown as "visits"). On a positive note websidestory's customer
service is great and they work hard to fix things quickly.

We still are not using HBX to its full potential, but we're getting
there. For companies willing to make an investment in a tool & the
people who know how to use it, I think that it's great. Smaller
companies who don't have the 'web analytics' skills to understand
everything that's being reported
may not get the best ROI.

Thanks for setting this list up Eric. I look forward to hearing from
all of you!

Cheers,
Braden Hoeppner

Hello and welcome to the Web Analytics Demystified discussion
group.  Thank you for joining!  This is the first post to the list
and I wanted to get a few things out of the way right off.

1)  This is an OPT-IN list and if you didn't opt-in please accept my
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2)  This list was assembled to be an ACTIVE DISCUSSION about Web
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this is an all-star list and you're in exceptional company.  Some of
the best vendors, the biggest companies and the most well-known
personalities have subscribed so DON'T BE SHY!  POST!

3)  Rules, there are no rules.  Be nice, be polite, ask thoughtful
questions, answer questions thoughtfully and if you don't have
anything to contribute simply read and move on.  We're all busy
people.  My sincere hope is that everyone involved learns something
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someone else something of value.  Trust that I will punish people
who are abusing this list ;-)

4)  This is your list.  If you're looking for a job, looking for
employees, looking for a new analytics vendor, looking for an answer
simply ASK AWAY! The major reason I started this list and moved away
from the blogging format is that it's so much easier for you to see
something/need something and jot off an email.  If people aren't
ACTIVELY POSTING and the list isn't somehow beneficial I'll likely
save some coin and go back to the blog.

5)  Because you're a member of the elite analytics digerati now I am
happy to extend you a coupon to save $10 USD on the cost of Web
Analytics Demystified.  Simply visit
http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com/10off and buy direct - heck,
I'm even covering the cost of shipping to ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.
Share this offer with a friend (or two, or three).

That's it!  Post, read, enjoy!

Eric T. Peterson
Author, Web Analytics Demystified
eric at webanalyticsdemystified.com
www.webanalyticsdemystified.com