I have had similar problems trying to contact the WAA. I would
be interested if you ever get a response...


> I've tried twice to get any kind of response from WAA with regards to
> their international committee, but it seems either they don't read
> emails or the contact person will reject any email from someone working
> at a competitor:
>
> http://www.webanalyticsassociation.org/en/cmt/?3
>
> Is there any other member of the international committee that
> participates in this forum? Or is the international committee a one man
> band?
>
> Rgds
> Fulton
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Web Metrics Discussion Group
> Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
> Author, Web Analytics Demystified
> http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



--
Brian Clifton
UK Urchin reseller   http://www.omegadm.co.uk

Hi Fulton and Giuseppe

I have!  I'm a member of WAA and subscribe to the Educational and
International committes (although I am not a committee member of
either) and I will look into this for you.

I know that Jim Novo reads this forum too and is the Educational
Committee Co-Chair.  I will try and contact Nick Sharp on your
behalf and see wherein lies the problem.

Regards
Jill Barringer

--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Sessa, Giuseppe" <gsessa@s...>
wrote:
> Same for me. I tried to contact them but I never got a single
reply.
> If any of you is more lucky, please let me know.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Giuseppe
>
>   _____
>
> From: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:webanalytics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brian@o...
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 12:29 PM
> To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [webanalytics] International WAA commitee?
>
>
> I have had similar problems trying to contact the WAA. I would
> be interested if you ever get a response...
>
>
> > I've tried twice to get any kind of response from WAA with
regards to
> > their international committee, but it seems either they don't
read
> > emails or the contact person will reject any email from someone
working
> > at a competitor:
> >
> > http://www.webanalyticsassociation.org/en/cmt/?3
> >
> > Is there any other member of the international committee that
> > participates in this forum? Or is the international committee a
one man
> > band?
> >
> > Rgds
> > Fulton
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> > Web Metrics Discussion Group
> > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
> > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
> > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Brian Clifton
> UK Urchin reseller   http://www.omegadm.co.uk
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Web Metrics Discussion Group
> Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
> Author, Web Analytics Demystified
> http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>
> *  Visit your group "webanalytics
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics> " on the web.
>
> *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> 	 webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>   _____

http://www.insurancenetworking.com/protected/article.cfm?articleId=3577

Who's Matt Delkin....?



> http://www.insurancenetworking.com/protected/article.cfm?articleId=3577
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Web Metrics Discussion Group
> Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
> Author, Web Analytics Demystified
> http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



--
Brian Clifton
UK Urchin reseller   http://www.omegadm.co.uk

********************************************
Steve Jackson                  
Editor : Conversion Chronicles
e-mail:   steve@...       
web:      www.conversionchronicles.com                
mobile:   +358 50 343 5159
ElectroCity D 4, Tykistökatu 4 D,
FIN-20520, TURKU, FINLAND
********************************************       

-----Original Message-----
From: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:webanalytics@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ross Jenkins
Sent: 01 September 2005 00:13
To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [webanalytics] UUID

I am going to go out on a limb and say there are many web analytic tools on the market that support the capture or creation of a UUID, or Unique User Identification, i.e Member 2345, J. Rollins, kwills@... and the like. Assuming I haven't misunderstood you, I think the vendors should jump in here, but as a 'generalization' anything that you're paying more than 50 bucks a month will support this feature. Although having now written that, I do recall a few headline applications that do not - at least out of the box.

 

I have had success with the capture of a UUID for $50 a month as well as 2,500 a month. I personally prefer my 1st party UUID to the vendors, assuming you actually need to capture and tie historical customer behavioral data -- Ask yourself why this is important, before actively pursuing it. Will you be able to act on that data? What additional resources will you require? Make a list of it benefits you.

"David J. Sundrum" <djsundrum@...> wrote:

 

Has any one heard of tracking users through the use of UUID? Is anyone aware of web analytics packages that support this feature. I've been looking around and haven't found much. Is this technology relatively new, hence not widely supported. Anyone’s industry experience is greatly appreciated in this matter. Thanks ahead.

 

David Sundrum

Web/Graphic Designer

 

SPS Commerce, Inc.

(612) 435-9527 (direct)

djsundrum@...

 

---

Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

I think we would all agree that an understanding of "what the end user
is thinking" is key. But survey-gathering is a separate discipline (I
believe) and that is probably why it is not much discussed in a web
analytics forum.

We are not (I don't think) trying to say that web analytics can solve
every customer-facing issue--just that it can provide essential,
objective information about user-behavior trends.

--Andrew Edwards

Alan Meekings wrote:

> I’ve followed the recent ‘head in the sand’ thread with great interest.
>
> What I’m struggling with, though, is that no-one, so far, has talked
> about ‘user experience’, the other side of the firewall, so to speak.
>
> The dialogue seems to have revolved around what can be deduced from
> stats emerging from site usage – cookies, et al.
>
> I’d be the first to acknowledge the value of usage-based data.
> However, I contend that often the most useful insights for web design
> and development come from surveying users directly, rather than from
> trying to infer insights about what’s in users’ heads from site usage
> data.
>
> Whose head is in the sand here? Is our collective focus on site-based
> data inevitable for a web analytics forum, or should we also be
> discussing topics such as how to use exit surveys to best effect, the
> benefits of comparative ‘mystery shopping’, etc?
>
> Assuming my head is not in the sand, am I simply barking up the wrong
> tree instead? ;-)
>
> Regards as ever,
>
> *Alan*
>
> _ _
>
> *Alan Meekings*
>
> *t* +44 (0) 7785 258 741 |* f* +44 (0) 1406 490 016 |* skype *alanmeekings
>
> *e *alan@...
> <mailto:alan@...> |* w*
> _http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk
> <http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk/>_
>
> Landmark Consulting | 3 The Atrium | 30 Vincent Square | Westminster |
> LONDON SW1P 2NW | UK
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:webanalytics@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Eric Peterson
> *Sent:* 23 August 2005 18:38
> *To:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* [webanalytics] Re: Head in the Sand?
>
> Jim, I dare say you're not "just an old fool who's been doing
> analytics so long I've finally lost context" but perhaps the arguement
> you (and MacIntyre and Hurol and Andrew) are making is perhaps
> contrary to people's understanding of what these applications are
> "supposed" to do.
>
> In my experience there is almost always a concern about "accuracy of
> data" in the sales process for web analytics applications--right or
> wrong. Some bean counter who expects that all software should be
> perfect, especially a tracking system. This guy or gal will perhaps
> never see or use the system, but they want to ensure that the data
> that is collected is "accurate." Again, 69% of these folks say that
> accuracy of data is very important to them when making an analytics
> purchase.
>
> Additionally, it is not uncommon that analytics systems get some of
> the basics wrong at times--robots and spiders inflate PV counts, have
> to be removed and reprocessed; commerce events fail to capture and
> reported revenue does not match financial systems; "clicks" from
> Google or Overture don't match "visits" tracked by the analytics
> application--all of these events are easily explained by folks like
> you and I but all have the potential to degrade the customers
> perception of the accuracy of the system (again, in my experience.)
>
> But let's ask the group: There are dozens of analytics vendor sales
> people monitoring the group right now--have any of you had prospects
> ask you about the accuracy of the data you collect? How about before
> JupiterResearch published our cookie report? How about before Belden
> and RedEye published their reports?
>
> Maybe nobody is asking you but I personally recall being asked about
> the accuracy of these types of systems well before anyone was publicly
> talking about cookies and the context was rarely accuracy of cookies
> ... it was simply "how accurate is the data you collect?" I mean, I
> thought it was important enough to ask Jim MacIntyre to write a hack
> "Understand Where Data Gets Lost" (Hack #21) in "Web Site Measurement
> Hacks".
>
> Don't ask me why they care, but companies seem to care.
>
> So when anyone comes along and says "accuracy really doesn't matter
> ... just manage based on trends" I think the message may not have the
> intended effect. Some companies I've talked to about this topic have
> said that the "manage based on trends" answer feels like a cop-out
> from the vendors, a non-answer to their questions about data accuracy.
>
> And I agree with Andrew when he says that "Web Analytics is not, and
> need not be, an exact science" but perhaps when some talk about an
> "infinitely measureable medium" what companies actually hear is "web
> analytics can be an exact science because it is infinitely measurable."
>
> Maybe we need to call the Internet a "finitely measurable medium" and
> sell tools and technologies with this in mind?
>
> So yeah, I think understanding the risks to measurement associated
> with cookie blocking and deletion is important. Because companies
> persist in their concern about accuracy of data, because some, ** not
> all **, vendors dissemble when asked about accuracy issues in their
> technology, and because very, very few have the sophistication about
> this stuff that Jim, Jim, Hurol and Andrew do.
>
> Pretty much the answer you expected from me, huh?
>
> I suppose, in the end, it's all about education. Good thing we have
> the WAA Education Committee!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Web Metrics Discussion Group
> Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
> Author, Web Analytics Demystified
> http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>     * Visit your group "webanalytics
>       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics>" on the web.
>     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>       webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       <mailto:webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


--
Andrew Edwards
Managing Partner
Technology Leaders
230 Park Avenue
New York, NY 10169
(212) 808-3058
Cell: (917) 602-0083
aedwards@...
www.technologyleaders.com

Hello all,

I agree that survey research is a separate discipline, yet...I think
we ought conceive of analytics in a broader way. Analytics data are
the result of a form of empirical research, as are survey data.

Both simply *indicate* user behaviour, preferences, etc. We must infer
significance from either.

That said, I tend to conceive of analytics of but one tool in my
research toolbox. After all, we are tasked with deciphering
significance daily. It is simply the *method* by which we gather these
data that may differ.

My clients don't seem to see that user research should go hand in hand
with analytics data. I do a lot of work trying to show them that these
are simply puzzle pieces, and they are all required to see the entire
picture. Analytics without usability, for example, is not the whole
picture.

But what do others see? Are the professionals on this list most
concerned with data, not so much with consumer insight?



--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Edwards <aedwards@t...> wrote:
> I think we would all agree that an understanding of "what the end user
> is thinking" is key. But survey-gathering is a separate discipline (I
> believe) and that is probably why it is not much discussed in a web
> analytics forum.
>
> We are not (I don't think) trying to say that web analytics can solve
> every customer-facing issue--just that it can provide essential,
> objective information about user-behavior trends.
>
> --Andrew Edwards
>
> Alan Meekings wrote:
>
> > I've followed the recent `head in the sand' thread with great
interest.
> >
> > What I'm struggling with, though, is that no-one, so far, has talked
> > about `user experience', the other side of the firewall, so to speak.
> >
> > The dialogue seems to have revolved around what can be deduced from
> > stats emerging from site usage – cookies, et


al.
> >
> > I'd be the first to acknowledge the value of usage-based data.
> > However, I contend that often the most useful insights for web design
> > and development come from surveying users directly, rather than from
> > trying to infer insights about what's in users' heads from site usage
> > data.
> >
> > Whose head is in the sand here? Is our collective focus on site-based
> > data inevitable for a web analytics forum, or should we also be
> > discussing topics such as how to use exit surveys to best effect, the
> > benefits of comparative `mystery shopping', etc?
> >
> > Assuming my head is not in the sand, am I simply barking up the wrong
> > tree instead? ;-)
> >
> > Regards as ever,
> >
> > *Alan*
> >
> > _ _
> >
> > *Alan Meekings*
> >
> > *t* +44 (0) 7785 258 741 |* f* +44 (0) 1406 490 016 |* skype
*alanmeekings
> >
> > *e *alan@l...
> > <mailto:alan@l...> |* w*
> > _http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk
> > <http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk/>_
> >
> > Landmark Consulting | 3 The Atrium | 30 Vincent Square |
Westminster |
> > LONDON SW1P 2NW | UK
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > *From:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:webanalytics@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Eric Peterson
> > *Sent:* 23 August 2005 18:38
> > *To:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
> > *Subject:* [webanalytics] Re: Head in the Sand?
> >
> > Jim, I dare say you're not "just an old fool who's been doing
> > analytics so long I've finally lost context" but perhaps the arguement
> > you (and MacIntyre and Hurol and Andrew) are making is perhaps
> > contrary to people's understanding of what these applications are
> > "supposed" to do.
> >
> > In my experience there is almost always a concern about "accuracy of
> > data" in the sales process for web analytics applications--right or
> > wrong. Some bean counter who expects that all software should be
> > perfect, especially a tracking system. This guy or gal will perhaps
> > never see or use the system, but they want to ensure that the data
> > that is collected is "accurate." Again, 69% of these folks say that
> > accuracy of data is very important to them when making an analytics
> > purchase.
> >
> > Additionally, it is not uncommon that analytics systems get some of
> > the basics wrong at times--robots and spiders inflate PV counts, have
> > to be removed and reprocessed; commerce events fail to capture and
> > reported revenue does not match financial systems; "clicks" from
> > Google or Overture don't match "visits" tracked by the analytics
> > application--all of these events are easily explained by folks like
> > you and I but all have the potential to degrade the customers
> > perception of the accuracy of the system (again, in my experience.)
> >
> > But let's ask the group: There are dozens of analytics vendor sales
> > people monitoring the group right now--have any of you had prospects
> > ask you about the accuracy of the data you collect? How about before
> > JupiterResearch published our cookie report? How about before Belden
> > and RedEye published their reports?
> >
> > Maybe nobody is asking you but I personally recall being asked about
> > the accuracy of these types of systems well before anyone was publicly
> > talking about cookies and the context was rarely accuracy of cookies
> > ... it was simply "how accurate is the data you collect?" I mean, I
> > thought it was important enough to ask Jim MacIntyre to write a hack
> > "Understand Where Data Gets Lost" (Hack #21) in "Web Site Measurement
> > Hacks".
> >
> > Don't ask me why they care, but companies seem to care.
> >
> > So when anyone comes along and says "accuracy really doesn't matter
> > ... just manage based on trends" I think the message may not have the
> > intended effect. Some companies I've talked to about this topic have
> > said that the "manage based on trends" answer feels like a cop-out
> > from the vendors, a non-answer to their questions about data accuracy.
> >
> > And I agree with Andrew when he says that "Web Analytics is not, and
> > need not be, an exact science" but perhaps when some talk about an
> > "infinitely measureable medium" what companies actually hear is "web
> > analytics can be an exact science because it is infinitely
measurable."
> >
> > Maybe we need to call the Internet a "finitely measurable medium" and
> > sell tools and technologies with this in mind?
> >
> > So yeah, I think understanding the risks to measurement associated
> > with cookie blocking and deletion is important. Because companies
> > persist in their concern about accuracy of data, because some, ** not
> > all **, vendors dissemble when asked about accuracy issues in their
> > technology, and because very, very few have the sophistication about
> > this stuff that Jim, Jim, Hurol and Andrew do.
> >
> > Pretty much the answer you expected from me, huh?
> >
> > I suppose, in the end, it's all about education. Good thing we have
> > the WAA Education Committee!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> > Web Metrics Discussion Group
> > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
> > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
> > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
> >
> >
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >     * Visit your group "webanalytics
> >       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics>" on the web.
> >     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >       webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
<mailto:webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> >       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
> --
> Andrew Edwards
> Managing Partner
> Technology Leaders
> 230 Park Avenue
> New York, NY 10169
> (212) 808-3058
> Cell: (917) 602-0083
> aedwards@t...
> www.technologyleaders.com

All true--and I personally agree that web optimization requires more
than just web analytics. But web optimization is a much broader
subject--too broad (in my opinion) for this forum to tackle adequately.

Sam Ladner wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>I agree that survey research is a separate discipline, yet...I think
>we ought conceive of analytics in a broader way. Analytics data are
>the result of a form of empirical research, as are survey data.
>
>Both simply *indicate* user behaviour, preferences, etc. We must infer
>significance from either.
>
>That said, I tend to conceive of analytics of but one tool in my
>research toolbox. After all, we are tasked with deciphering
>significance daily. It is simply the *method* by which we gather these
>data that may differ.
>
>My clients don't seem to see that user research should go hand in hand
>with analytics data. I do a lot of work trying to show them that these
>are simply puzzle pieces, and they are all required to see the entire
>picture. Analytics without usability, for example, is not the whole
>picture.
>
>But what do others see? Are the professionals on this list most
>concerned with data, not so much with consumer insight?
>
>
>
>--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Edwards <aedwards@t...> wrote:
>
>
>>I think we would all agree that an understanding of "what the end user
>>is thinking" is key. But survey-gathering is a separate discipline (I
>>believe) and that is probably why it is not much discussed in a web
>>analytics forum.
>>
>>We are not (I don't think) trying to say that web analytics can solve
>>every customer-facing issue--just that it can provide essential,
>>objective information about user-behavior trends.
>>
>>--Andrew Edwards
>>
>>Alan Meekings wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I've followed the recent `head in the sand' thread with great
>>>
>>>
>interest.
>
>
>>>What I'm struggling with, though, is that no-one, so far, has talked
>>>about `user experience', the other side of the firewall, so to speak.
>>>
>>>The dialogue seems to have revolved around what can be deduced from
>>>stats emerging from site usage – cookies, et
>>>
>>>
>
>
>al.
>
>
>>>I'd be the first to acknowledge the value of usage-based data.
>>>However, I contend that often the most useful insights for web design
>>>and development come from surveying users directly, rather than from
>>>trying to infer insights about what's in users' heads from site usage
>>>data.
>>>
>>>Whose head is in the sand here? Is our collective focus on site-based
>>>data inevitable for a web analytics forum, or should we also be
>>>discussing topics such as how to use exit surveys to best effect, the
>>>benefits of comparative `mystery shopping', etc?
>>>
>>>Assuming my head is not in the sand, am I simply barking up the wrong
>>>tree instead? ;-)
>>>
>>>Regards as ever,
>>>
>>>*Alan*
>>>
>>>_ _
>>>
>>>*Alan Meekings*
>>>
>>>*t* +44 (0) 7785 258 741 |* f* +44 (0) 1406 490 016 |* skype
>>>
>>>
>*alanmeekings
>
>
>>>*e *alan@l...
>>><mailto:alan@l...> |* w*
>>>_http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk
>>><http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk/>_
>>>
>>>Landmark Consulting | 3 The Atrium | 30 Vincent Square |
>>>
>>>
>Westminster |
>
>
>>>LONDON SW1P 2NW | UK
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>*From:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
>>>[mailto:webanalytics@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Eric Peterson
>>>*Sent:* 23 August 2005 18:38
>>>*To:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
>>>*Subject:* [webanalytics] Re: Head in the Sand?
>>>
>>>Jim, I dare say you're not "just an old fool who's been doing
>>>analytics so long I've finally lost context" but perhaps the arguement
>>>you (and MacIntyre and Hurol and Andrew) are making is perhaps
>>>contrary to people's understanding of what these applications are
>>>"supposed" to do.
>>>
>>>In my experience there is almost always a concern about "accuracy of
>>>data" in the sales process for web analytics applications--right or
>>>wrong. Some bean counter who expects that all software should be
>>>perfect, especially a tracking system. This guy or gal will perhaps
>>>never see or use the system, but they want to ensure that the data
>>>that is collected is "accurate." Again, 69% of these folks say that
>>>accuracy of data is very important to them when making an analytics
>>>purchase.
>>>
>>>Additionally, it is not uncommon that analytics systems get some of
>>>the basics wrong at times--robots and spiders inflate PV counts, have
>>>to be removed and reprocessed; commerce events fail to capture and
>>>reported revenue does not match financial systems; "clicks" from
>>>Google or Overture don't match "visits" tracked by the analytics
>>>application--all of these events are easily explained by folks like
>>>you and I but all have the potential to degrade the customers
>>>perception of the accuracy of the system (again, in my experience.)
>>>
>>>But let's ask the group: There are dozens of analytics vendor sales
>>>people monitoring the group right now--have any of you had prospects
>>>ask you about the accuracy of the data you collect? How about before
>>>JupiterResearch published our cookie report? How about before Belden
>>>and RedEye published their reports?
>>>
>>>Maybe nobody is asking you but I personally recall being asked about
>>>the accuracy of these types of systems well before anyone was publicly
>>>talking about cookies and the context was rarely accuracy of cookies
>>>... it was simply "how accurate is the data you collect?" I mean, I
>>>thought it was important enough to ask Jim MacIntyre to write a hack
>>>"Understand Where Data Gets Lost" (Hack #21) in "Web Site Measurement
>>>Hacks".
>>>
>>>Don't ask me why they care, but companies seem to care.
>>>
>>>So when anyone comes along and says "accuracy really doesn't matter
>>>... just manage based on trends" I think the message may not have the
>>>intended effect. Some companies I've talked to about this topic have
>>>said that the "manage based on trends" answer feels like a cop-out
>>>from the vendors, a non-answer to their questions about data accuracy.
>>>
>>>And I agree with Andrew when he says that "Web Analytics is not, and
>>>need not be, an exact science" but perhaps when some talk about an
>>>"infinitely measureable medium" what companies actually hear is "web
>>>analytics can be an exact science because it is infinitely
>>>
>>>
>measurable."
>
>
>>>Maybe we need to call the Internet a "finitely measurable medium" and
>>>sell tools and technologies with this in mind?
>>>
>>>So yeah, I think understanding the risks to measurement associated
>>>with cookie blocking and deletion is important. Because companies
>>>persist in their concern about accuracy of data, because some, ** not
>>>all **, vendors dissemble when asked about accuracy issues in their
>>>technology, and because very, very few have the sophistication about
>>>this stuff that Jim, Jim, Hurol and Andrew do.
>>>
>>>Pretty much the answer you expected from me, huh?
>>>
>>>I suppose, in the end, it's all about education. Good thing we have
>>>the WAA Education Committee!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------------
>>>Web Metrics Discussion Group
>>>Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
>>>Author, Web Analytics Demystified
>>>http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>>>YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>>>
>>>    * Visit your group "webanalytics
>>>      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics>" on the web.
>>>    * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>      webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
><mailto:webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
>>>    * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>>>      Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>>--
>>Andrew Edwards
>>Managing Partner
>>Technology Leaders
>>230 Park Avenue
>>New York, NY 10169
>>(212) 808-3058
>>Cell: (917) 602-0083
>>aedwards@t...
>>www.technologyleaders.com
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------
>Web Metrics Discussion Group
>Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
>Author, Web Analytics Demystified
>http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Andrew Edwards
Managing Partner
Technology Leaders
230 Park Avenue
New York, NY 10169
(212) 808-3058
Cell: (917) 602-0083
aedwards@...
www.technologyleaders.com

Hello all,

FYI...Active email exchanges occurred outside this Group in August
as the WAA Education committee needed to include a definition
of "What is Web Analytics?" in the upcoming WAA-UBC Web Analytics
online course.

The WAA definition of Web Analytics is the offical definition.
However, I think we acknowledge that panels, usability studies and
surveys should be deployed when necessary to ensure we gain a true
understanding, as Sam says, of "the whole picture".  As such,
these "other methods" are given brief high-level coverage in the
more advanced courses.  The information that comes out of the Web
Analytics tools tells us WHAT is happening.  WHY the WHAT is
happening often requires discussion with some real live people
through other research means, online or offline.

It's my sense that we have a problem with terminology and
the drawing of boundaries rather than being unconcerned with
consumer insight.  And it's not a minor problem, because we risk
confusing the rest of our organizations and clients about how
we "do" analytics.  I can envision departments not budgeting for
secondary research because they think all relevant insight will be
gained from main Web Analytics tool.

Neil Mason addressed this fuzziness of terminology in this ClickZ
column in early August.  He has a suggestion...that the broader
scope of analytics be called "e-business consumer insight"...here's
an excerpt:

"...If panel data and survey analysis and interpretation aren't part
of Web analytics, for example, what is it? It's part of a wider e-
marketing discipline. It's more holistic and puts the focus on the
consumer rather than the site or channel. Increasingly we talk
about "e-CI," or e-business consumer insight. It's an approach that
puts the consumer at the heart of the matter....".  Here's a link to
Neil's ClickZ article "Defining Web Analytics"
http://www.clickz.com/experts/crm/analyze_data/article.php/3525521
and his follow-up article on "Defining Web Analytics: Market
Intelligence"
http://www.clickz.com/experts/crm/analyze_data/article.php/3527436



June Li
ClickInsight Corporation
Tel: 416.207.9623
June.Li@...


--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Sam Ladner" <saml@c...> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I agree that survey research is a separate discipline, yet...I
think
> we ought conceive of analytics in a broader way. Analytics data are
> the result of a form of empirical research, as are survey data.
>
> Both simply *indicate* user behaviour, preferences, etc. We must
infer
> significance from either.
>
> That said, I tend to conceive of analytics of but one tool in my
> research toolbox. After all, we are tasked with deciphering
> significance daily. It is simply the *method* by which we gather
these
> data that may differ.
>
> My clients don't seem to see that user research should go hand in
hand
> with analytics data. I do a lot of work trying to show them that
these
> are simply puzzle pieces, and they are all required to see the
entire
> picture. Analytics without usability, for example, is not the whole
> picture.
>
> But what do others see? Are the professionals on this list most
> concerned with data, not so much with consumer insight?
>
>
>
> --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Edwards
<aedwards@t...> wrote:
> > I think we would all agree that an understanding of "what the
end user
> > is thinking" is key. But survey-gathering is a separate
discipline (I
> > believe) and that is probably why it is not much discussed in a
web
> > analytics forum.
> >
> > We are not (I don't think) trying to say that web analytics can
solve
> > every customer-facing issue--just that it can provide essential,
> > objective information about user-behavior trends.
> >
> > --Andrew Edwards
> >
> > Alan Meekings wrote:
> >
> > > I've followed the recent `head in the sand' thread with great
> interest.
> > >
> > > What I'm struggling with, though, is that no-one, so far, has
talked
> > > about `user experience', the other side of the firewall, so to
speak.
> > >
> > > The dialogue seems to have revolved around what can be deduced
from
> > > stats emerging from site usage – cookies, et
>
>
> al.
> > >
> > > I'd be the first to acknowledge the value of usage-based data.
> > > However, I contend that often the most useful insights for web
design
> > > and development come from surveying users directly, rather
than from
> > > trying to infer insights about what's in users' heads from
site usage
> > > data.
> > >
> > > Whose head is in the sand here? Is our collective focus on
site-based
> > > data inevitable for a web analytics forum, or should we also
be
> > > discussing topics such as how to use exit surveys to best
effect, the
> > > benefits of comparative `mystery shopping', etc?
> > >
> > > Assuming my head is not in the sand, am I simply barking up
the wrong
> > > tree instead? ;-)
> > >
> > > Regards as ever,
> > >
> > > *Alan*
> > >
> > > _ _
> > >
> > > *Alan Meekings*
> > >
> > > *t* +44 (0) 7785 258 741 |* f* +44 (0) 1406 490 016 |* skype
> *alanmeekings
> > >
> > > *e *alan@l...
> > > <mailto:alan@l...> |* w*
> > > _http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk
> > > <http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk/>_
> > >
> > > Landmark Consulting | 3 The Atrium | 30 Vincent Square |
> Westminster |
> > > LONDON SW1P 2NW | UK
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > *From:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:webanalytics@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Eric
Peterson
> > > *Sent:* 23 August 2005 18:38
> > > *To:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
> > > *Subject:* [webanalytics] Re: Head in the Sand?
> > >
> > > Jim, I dare say you're not "just an old fool who's been doing
> > > analytics so long I've finally lost context" but perhaps the
arguement
> > > you (and MacIntyre and Hurol and Andrew) are making is perhaps
> > > contrary to people's understanding of what these applications
are
> > > "supposed" to do.
> > >
> > > In my experience there is almost always a concern
about "accuracy of
> > > data" in the sales process for web analytics applications--
right or
> > > wrong. Some bean counter who expects that all software should
be
> > > perfect, especially a tracking system. This guy or gal will
perhaps
> > > never see or use the system, but they want to ensure that the
data
> > > that is collected is "accurate." Again, 69% of these folks say
that
> > > accuracy of data is very important to them when making an
analytics
> > > purchase.
> > >
> > > Additionally, it is not uncommon that analytics systems get
some of
> > > the basics wrong at times--robots and spiders inflate PV
counts, have
> > > to be removed and reprocessed; commerce events fail to capture
and
> > > reported revenue does not match financial systems; "clicks"
from
> > > Google or Overture don't match "visits" tracked by the
analytics
> > > application--all of these events are easily explained by folks
like
> > > you and I but all have the potential to degrade the customers
> > > perception of the accuracy of the system (again, in my
experience.)
> > >
> > > But let's ask the group: There are dozens of analytics vendor
sales
> > > people monitoring the group right now--have any of you had
prospects
> > > ask you about the accuracy of the data you collect? How about
before
> > > JupiterResearch published our cookie report? How about before
Belden
> > > and RedEye published their reports?
> > >
> > > Maybe nobody is asking you but I personally recall being asked
about
> > > the accuracy of these types of systems well before anyone was
publicly
> > > talking about cookies and the context was rarely accuracy of
cookies
> > > ... it was simply "how accurate is the data you collect?" I
mean, I
> > > thought it was important enough to ask Jim MacIntyre to write
a hack
> > > "Understand Where Data Gets Lost" (Hack #21) in "Web Site
Measurement
> > > Hacks".
> > >
> > > Don't ask me why they care, but companies seem to care.
> > >
> > > So when anyone comes along and says "accuracy really doesn't
matter
> > > ... just manage based on trends" I think the message may not
have the
> > > intended effect. Some companies I've talked to about this
topic have
> > > said that the "manage based on trends" answer feels like a cop-
out
> > > from the vendors, a non-answer to their questions about data
accuracy.
> > >
> > > And I agree with Andrew when he says that "Web Analytics is
not, and
> > > need not be, an exact science" but perhaps when some talk
about an
> > > "infinitely measureable medium" what companies actually hear
is "web
> > > analytics can be an exact science because it is infinitely
> measurable."
> > >
> > > Maybe we need to call the Internet a "finitely measurable
medium" and
> > > sell tools and technologies with this in mind?
> > >
> > > So yeah, I think understanding the risks to measurement
associated
> > > with cookie blocking and deletion is important. Because
companies
> > > persist in their concern about accuracy of data, because some,
** not
> > > all **, vendors dissemble when asked about accuracy issues in
their
> > > technology, and because very, very few have the sophistication
about
> > > this stuff that Jim, Jim, Hurol and Andrew do.
> > >
> > > Pretty much the answer you expected from me, huh?
> > >
> > > I suppose, in the end, it's all about education. Good thing we
have
> > > the WAA Education Committee!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------
> > > Web Metrics Discussion Group
> > > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
> > > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
> > > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > >     * Visit your group "webanalytics
> > >       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics>" on the web.
> > >     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > >       webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> <mailto:webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
subject=Unsubscribe>
> > >     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of
> > >       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Andrew Edwards
> > Managing Partner
> > Technology Leaders
> > 230 Park Avenue
> > New York, NY 10169
> > (212) 808-3058
> > Cell: (917) 602-0083
> > aedwards@t...
> > www.technologyleaders.com

This is a sound argument. I think we need to make clear that survey data
is a valuable part of web optimization--but that it is a companion to
web analytics; and that while WA tools cannot discern what people are
thinking, they can do a superior job of reporting what they are actually
doing.

jli8t8 wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>FYI...Active email exchanges occurred outside this Group in August
>as the WAA Education committee needed to include a definition
>of "What is Web Analytics?" in the upcoming WAA-UBC Web Analytics
>online course.
>
>The WAA definition of Web Analytics is the offical definition.
>However, I think we acknowledge that panels, usability studies and
>surveys should be deployed when necessary to ensure we gain a true
>understanding, as Sam says, of "the whole picture".  As such,
>these "other methods" are given brief high-level coverage in the
>more advanced courses.  The information that comes out of the Web
>Analytics tools tells us WHAT is happening.  WHY the WHAT is
>happening often requires discussion with some real live people
>through other research means, online or offline.
>
>It's my sense that we have a problem with terminology and
>the drawing of boundaries rather than being unconcerned with
>consumer insight.  And it's not a minor problem, because we risk
>confusing the rest of our organizations and clients about how
>we "do" analytics.  I can envision departments not budgeting for
>secondary research because they think all relevant insight will be
>gained from main Web Analytics tool.
>
>Neil Mason addressed this fuzziness of terminology in this ClickZ
>column in early August.  He has a suggestion...that the broader
>scope of analytics be called "e-business consumer insight"...here's
>an excerpt:
>
>"...If panel data and survey analysis and interpretation aren't part
>of Web analytics, for example, what is it? It's part of a wider e-
>marketing discipline. It's more holistic and puts the focus on the
>consumer rather than the site or channel. Increasingly we talk
>about "e-CI," or e-business consumer insight. It's an approach that
>puts the consumer at the heart of the matter....".  Here's a link to
>Neil's ClickZ article "Defining Web Analytics"
>http://www.clickz.com/experts/crm/analyze_data/article.php/3525521
>and his follow-up article on "Defining Web Analytics: Market
>Intelligence"
>http://www.clickz.com/experts/crm/analyze_data/article.php/3527436
>
>
>
>June Li
>ClickInsight Corporation
>Tel: 416.207.9623
>June.Li@...
>
>
>--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Sam Ladner" <saml@c...> wrote:
>
>
>>Hello all,
>>
>>I agree that survey research is a separate discipline, yet...I
>>
>>
>think
>
>
>>we ought conceive of analytics in a broader way. Analytics data are
>>the result of a form of empirical research, as are survey data.
>>
>>Both simply *indicate* user behaviour, preferences, etc. We must
>>
>>
>infer
>
>
>>significance from either.
>>
>>That said, I tend to conceive of analytics of but one tool in my
>>research toolbox. After all, we are tasked with deciphering
>>significance daily. It is simply the *method* by which we gather
>>
>>
>these
>
>
>>data that may differ.
>>
>>My clients don't seem to see that user research should go hand in
>>
>>
>hand
>
>
>>with analytics data. I do a lot of work trying to show them that
>>
>>
>these
>
>
>>are simply puzzle pieces, and they are all required to see the
>>
>>
>entire
>
>
>>picture. Analytics without usability, for example, is not the whole
>>picture.
>>
>>But what do others see? Are the professionals on this list most
>>concerned with data, not so much with consumer insight?
>>
>>
>>
>>--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Edwards
>>
>>
><aedwards@t...> wrote:
>
>
>>>I think we would all agree that an understanding of "what the
>>>
>>>
>end user
>
>
>>>is thinking" is key. But survey-gathering is a separate
>>>
>>>
>discipline (I
>
>
>>>believe) and that is probably why it is not much discussed in a
>>>
>>>
>web
>
>
>>>analytics forum.
>>>
>>>We are not (I don't think) trying to say that web analytics can
>>>
>>>
>solve
>
>
>>>every customer-facing issue--just that it can provide essential,
>>>objective information about user-behavior trends.
>>>
>>>--Andrew Edwards
>>>
>>>Alan Meekings wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I've followed the recent `head in the sand' thread with great
>>>>
>>>>
>>interest.
>>
>>
>>>>What I'm struggling with, though, is that no-one, so far, has
>>>>
>>>>
>talked
>
>
>>>>about `user experience', the other side of the firewall, so to
>>>>
>>>>
>speak.
>
>
>>>>The dialogue seems to have revolved around what can be deduced
>>>>
>>>>
>from
>
>
>>>>stats emerging from site usage – cookies, et
>>>>
>>>>
>>al.
>>
>>
>>>>I'd be the first to acknowledge the value of usage-based data.
>>>>However, I contend that often the most useful insights for web
>>>>
>>>>
>design
>
>
>>>>and development come from surveying users directly, rather
>>>>
>>>>
>than from
>
>
>>>>trying to infer insights about what's in users' heads from
>>>>
>>>>
>site usage
>
>
>>>>data.
>>>>
>>>>Whose head is in the sand here? Is our collective focus on
>>>>
>>>>
>site-based
>
>
>>>>data inevitable for a web analytics forum, or should we also
>>>>
>>>>
>be
>
>
>>>>discussing topics such as how to use exit surveys to best
>>>>
>>>>
>effect, the
>
>
>>>>benefits of comparative `mystery shopping', etc?
>>>>
>>>>Assuming my head is not in the sand, am I simply barking up
>>>>
>>>>
>the wrong
>
>
>>>>tree instead? ;-)
>>>>
>>>>Regards as ever,
>>>>
>>>>*Alan*
>>>>
>>>>_ _
>>>>
>>>>*Alan Meekings*
>>>>
>>>>*t* +44 (0) 7785 258 741 |* f* +44 (0) 1406 490 016 |* skype
>>>>
>>>>
>>*alanmeekings
>>
>>
>>>>*e *alan@l...
>>>><mailto:alan@l...> |* w*
>>>>_http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk
>>>><http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk/>_
>>>>
>>>>Landmark Consulting | 3 The Atrium | 30 Vincent Square |
>>>>
>>>>
>>Westminster |
>>
>>
>>>>LONDON SW1P 2NW | UK
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>*From:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
>>>>[mailto:webanalytics@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Eric
>>>>
>>>>
>Peterson
>
>
>>>>*Sent:* 23 August 2005 18:38
>>>>*To:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
>>>>*Subject:* [webanalytics] Re: Head in the Sand?
>>>>
>>>>Jim, I dare say you're not "just an old fool who's been doing
>>>>analytics so long I've finally lost context" but perhaps the
>>>>
>>>>
>arguement
>
>
>>>>you (and MacIntyre and Hurol and Andrew) are making is perhaps
>>>>contrary to people's understanding of what these applications
>>>>
>>>>
>are
>
>
>>>>"supposed" to do.
>>>>
>>>>In my experience there is almost always a concern
>>>>
>>>>
>about "accuracy of
>
>
>>>>data" in the sales process for web analytics applications--
>>>>
>>>>
>right or
>
>
>>>>wrong. Some bean counter who expects that all software should
>>>>
>>>>
>be
>
>
>>>>perfect, especially a tracking system. This guy or gal will
>>>>
>>>>
>perhaps
>
>
>>>>never see or use the system, but they want to ensure that the
>>>>
>>>>
>data
>
>
>>>>that is collected is "accurate." Again, 69% of these folks say
>>>>
>>>>
>that
>
>
>>>>accuracy of data is very important to them when making an
>>>>
>>>>
>analytics
>
>
>>>>purchase.
>>>>
>>>>Additionally, it is not uncommon that analytics systems get
>>>>
>>>>
>some of
>
>
>>>>the basics wrong at times--robots and spiders inflate PV
>>>>
>>>>
>counts, have
>
>
>>>>to be removed and reprocessed; commerce events fail to capture
>>>>
>>>>
>and
>
>
>>>>reported revenue does not match financial systems; "clicks"
>>>>
>>>>
>from
>
>
>>>>Google or Overture don't match "visits" tracked by the
>>>>
>>>>
>analytics
>
>
>>>>application--all of these events are easily explained by folks
>>>>
>>>>
>like
>
>
>>>>you and I but all have the potential to degrade the customers
>>>>perception of the accuracy of the system (again, in my
>>>>
>>>>
>experience.)
>
>
>>>>But let's ask the group: There are dozens of analytics vendor
>>>>
>>>>
>sales
>
>
>>>>people monitoring the group right now--have any of you had
>>>>
>>>>
>prospects
>
>
>>>>ask you about the accuracy of the data you collect? How about
>>>>
>>>>
>before
>
>
>>>>JupiterResearch published our cookie report? How about before
>>>>
>>>>
>Belden
>
>
>>>>and RedEye published their reports?
>>>>
>>>>Maybe nobody is asking you but I personally recall being asked
>>>>
>>>>
>about
>
>
>>>>the accuracy of these types of systems well before anyone was
>>>>
>>>>
>publicly
>
>
>>>>talking about cookies and the context was rarely accuracy of
>>>>
>>>>
>cookies
>
>
>>>>... it was simply "how accurate is the data you collect?" I
>>>>
>>>>
>mean, I
>
>
>>>>thought it was important enough to ask Jim MacIntyre to write
>>>>
>>>>
>a hack
>
>
>>>>"Understand Where Data Gets Lost" (Hack #21) in "Web Site
>>>>
>>>>
>Measurement
>
>
>>>>Hacks".
>>>>
>>>>Don't ask me why they care, but companies seem to care.
>>>>
>>>>So when anyone comes along and says "accuracy really doesn't
>>>>
>>>>
>matter
>
>
>>>>... just manage based on trends" I think the message may not
>>>>
>>>>
>have the
>
>
>>>>intended effect. Some companies I've talked to about this
>>>>
>>>>
>topic have
>
>
>>>>said that the "manage based on trends" answer feels like a cop-
>>>>
>>>>
>out
>
>
>>>>from the vendors, a non-answer to their questions about data
>>>>
>>>>
>accuracy.
>
>
>>>>And I agree with Andrew when he says that "Web Analytics is
>>>>
>>>>
>not, and
>
>
>>>>need not be, an exact science" but perhaps when some talk
>>>>
>>>>
>about an
>
>
>>>>"infinitely measureable medium" what companies actually hear
>>>>
>>>>
>is "web
>
>
>>>>analytics can be an exact science because it is infinitely
>>>>
>>>>
>>measurable."
>>
>>
>>>>Maybe we need to call the Internet a "finitely measurable
>>>>
>>>>
>medium" and
>
>
>>>>sell tools and technologies with this in mind?
>>>>
>>>>So yeah, I think understanding the risks to measurement
>>>>
>>>>
>associated
>
>
>>>>with cookie blocking and deletion is important. Because
>>>>
>>>>
>companies
>
>
>>>>persist in their concern about accuracy of data, because some,
>>>>
>>>>
>** not
>
>
>>>>all **, vendors dissemble when asked about accuracy issues in
>>>>
>>>>
>their
>
>
>>>>technology, and because very, very few have the sophistication
>>>>
>>>>
>about
>
>
>>>>this stuff that Jim, Jim, Hurol and Andrew do.
>>>>
>>>>Pretty much the answer you expected from me, huh?
>>>>
>>>>I suppose, in the end, it's all about education. Good thing we
>>>>
>>>>
>have
>
>
>>>>the WAA Education Committee!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>---------------------------------------
>>>>Web Metrics Discussion Group
>>>>Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
>>>>Author, Web Analytics Demystified
>>>>http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>-----
>
>
>>>>YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>>>>
>>>>    * Visit your group "webanalytics
>>>>      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics>" on the web.
>>>>    * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>>      webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>><mailto:webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
>>
>>
>subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
>>>>    * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
>>>>
>>>>
>of
>
>
>>>>      Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>-----
>
>
>>>--
>>>Andrew Edwards
>>>Managing Partner
>>>Technology Leaders
>>>230 Park Avenue
>>>New York, NY 10169
>>>(212) 808-3058
>>>Cell: (917) 602-0083
>>>aedwards@t...
>>>www.technologyleaders.com
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------
>Web Metrics Discussion Group
>Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
>Author, Web Analytics Demystified
>http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Andrew Edwards
Managing Partner
Technology Leaders
230 Park Avenue
New York, NY 10169
(212) 808-3058
Cell: (917) 602-0083
aedwards@...
www.technologyleaders.com

Actually, there is a set of web-analytics tool set/services that can discern
what people are thinking / feeling when they are on your website.
The company is called Next Stage Analytics.

They've got some behavioral analytics case studies
http://www.nextstageanalytics.com/casestudies.cfm

A bunch of behavioral research papers available at their sister corporation:
http://www.nextstagevolution.com/research.cfm


Matt Van Wagner


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Matt Van Wagner                matt@...
President                                           603-557-7504
Find Me Faster                            Fax 925-666-1434
80 Stillwater Drive
Nashua, NH 03062
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


-----Original Message-----
From: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:webanalytics@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Andrew Edwards
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 1:04 PM
To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [webanalytics] Re: Head in the sand - or barking up the wrong
tree?


This is a sound argument. I think we need to make clear that survey data
is a valuable part of web optimization--but that it is a companion to
web analytics; and that while WA tools cannot discern what people are
thinking, they can do a superior job of reporting what they are actually
doing.

jli8t8 wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>FYI...Active email exchanges occurred outside this Group in August
>as the WAA Education committee needed to include a definition
>of "What is Web Analytics?" in the upcoming WAA-UBC Web Analytics
>online course.
>
>The WAA definition of Web Analytics is the offical definition.
>However, I think we acknowledge that panels, usability studies and
>surveys should be deployed when necessary to ensure we gain a true
>understanding, as Sam says, of "the whole picture".  As such,
>these "other methods" are given brief high-level coverage in the
>more advanced courses.  The information that comes out of the Web
>Analytics tools tells us WHAT is happening.  WHY the WHAT is
>happening often requires discussion with some real live people
>through other research means, online or offline.
>
>It's my sense that we have a problem with terminology and
>the drawing of boundaries rather than being unconcerned with
>consumer insight.  And it's not a minor problem, because we risk
>confusing the rest of our organizations and clients about how
>we "do" analytics.  I can envision departments not budgeting for
>secondary research because they think all relevant insight will be
>gained from main Web Analytics tool.
>
>Neil Mason addressed this fuzziness of terminology in this ClickZ
>column in early August.  He has a suggestion...that the broader
>scope of analytics be called "e-business consumer insight"...here's
>an excerpt:
>
>"...If panel data and survey analysis and interpretation aren't part
>of Web analytics, for example, what is it? It's part of a wider e-
>marketing discipline. It's more holistic and puts the focus on the
>consumer rather than the site or channel. Increasingly we talk
>about "e-CI," or e-business consumer insight. It's an approach that
>puts the consumer at the heart of the matter....".  Here's a link to
>Neil's ClickZ article "Defining Web Analytics"
>http://www.clickz.com/experts/crm/analyze_data/article.php/3525521
>and his follow-up article on "Defining Web Analytics: Market
>Intelligence"
>http://www.clickz.com/experts/crm/analyze_data/article.php/3527436
>
>
>
>June Li
>ClickInsight Corporation
>Tel: 416.207.9623
>June.Li@...
>
>
>--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Sam Ladner" <saml@c...> wrote:
>
>
>>Hello all,
>>
>>I agree that survey research is a separate discipline, yet...I
>>
>>
>think
>
>
>>we ought conceive of analytics in a broader way. Analytics data are
>>the result of a form of empirical research, as are survey data.
>>
>>Both simply *indicate* user behaviour, preferences, etc. We must
>>
>>
>infer
>
>
>>significance from either.
>>
>>That said, I tend to conceive of analytics of but one tool in my
>>research toolbox. After all, we are tasked with deciphering
>>significance daily. It is simply the *method* by which we gather
>>
>>
>these
>
>
>>data that may differ.
>>
>>My clients don't seem to see that user research should go hand in
>>
>>
>hand
>
>
>>with analytics data. I do a lot of work trying to show them that
>>
>>
>these
>
>
>>are simply puzzle pieces, and they are all required to see the
>>
>>
>entire
>
>
>>picture. Analytics without usability, for example, is not the whole
>>picture.
>>
>>But what do others see? Are the professionals on this list most
>>concerned with data, not so much with consumer insight?
>>
>>
>>
>>--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Edwards
>>
>>
><aedwards@t...> wrote:
>
>
>>>I think we would all agree that an understanding of "what the
>>>
>>>
>end user
>
>
>>>is thinking" is key. But survey-gathering is a separate
>>>
>>>
>discipline (I
>
>
>>>believe) and that is probably why it is not much discussed in a
>>>
>>>
>web
>
>
>>>analytics forum.
>>>
>>>We are not (I don't think) trying to say that web analytics can
>>>
>>>
>solve
>
>
>>>every customer-facing issue--just that it can provide essential,
>>>objective information about user-behavior trends.
>>>
>>>--Andrew Edwards
>>>
>>>Alan Meekings wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I've followed the recent `head in the sand' thread with great
>>>>
>>>>
>>interest.
>>
>>
>>>>What I'm struggling with, though, is that no-one, so far, has
>>>>
>>>>
>talked
>
>
>>>>about `user experience', the other side of the firewall, so to
>>>>
>>>>
>speak.
>
>
>>>>The dialogue seems to have revolved around what can be deduced
>>>>
>>>>
>from
>
>
>>>>stats emerging from site usage - cookies, et
>>>>
>>>>
>>al.
>>
>>
>>>>I'd be the first to acknowledge the value of usage-based data.
>>>>However, I contend that often the most useful insights for web
>>>>
>>>>
>design
>
>
>>>>and development come from surveying users directly, rather
>>>>
>>>>
>than from
>
>
>>>>trying to infer insights about what's in users' heads from
>>>>
>>>>
>site usage
>
>
>>>>data.
>>>>
>>>>Whose head is in the sand here? Is our collective focus on
>>>>
>>>>
>site-based
>
>
>>>>data inevitable for a web analytics forum, or should we also
>>>>
>>>>
>be
>
>
>>>>discussing topics such as how to use exit surveys to best
>>>>
>>>>
>effect, the
>
>
>>>>benefits of comparative `mystery shopping', etc?
>>>>
>>>>Assuming my head is not in the sand, am I simply barking up
>>>>
>>>>
>the wrong
>
>
>>>>tree instead? ;-)
>>>>
>>>>Regards as ever,
>>>>
>>>>*Alan*
>>>>
>>>>_ _
>>>>
>>>>*Alan Meekings*
>>>>
>>>>*t* +44 (0) 7785 258 741 |* f* +44 (0) 1406 490 016 |* skype
>>>>
>>>>
>>*alanmeekings
>>
>>
>>>>*e *alan@l...
>>>><mailto:alan@l...> |* w*
>>>>_http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk
>>>><http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk/>_
>>>>
>>>>Landmark Consulting | 3 The Atrium | 30 Vincent Square |
>>>>
>>>>
>>Westminster |
>>
>>
>>>>LONDON SW1P 2NW | UK
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>*From:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
>>>>[mailto:webanalytics@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Eric
>>>>
>>>>
>Peterson
>
>
>>>>*Sent:* 23 August 2005 18:38
>>>>*To:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
>>>>*Subject:* [webanalytics] Re: Head in the Sand?
>>>>
>>>>Jim, I dare say you're not "just an old fool who's been doing
>>>>analytics so long I've finally lost context" but perhaps the
>>>>
>>>>
>arguement
>
>
>>>>you (and MacIntyre and Hurol and Andrew) are making is perhaps
>>>>contrary to people's understanding of what these applications
>>>>
>>>>
>are
>
>
>>>>"supposed" to do.
>>>>
>>>>In my experience there is almost always a concern
>>>>
>>>>
>about "accuracy of
>
>
>>>>data" in the sales process for web analytics applications--
>>>>
>>>>
>right or
>
>
>>>>wrong. Some bean counter who expects that all software should
>>>>
>>>>
>be
>
>
>>>>perfect, especially a tracking system. This guy or gal will
>>>>
>>>>
>perhaps
>
>
>>>>never see or use the system, but they want to ensure that the
>>>>
>>>>
>data
>
>
>>>>that is collected is "accurate." Again, 69% of these folks say
>>>>
>>>>
>that
>
>
>>>>accuracy of data is very important to them when making an
>>>>
>>>>
>analytics
>
>
>>>>purchase.
>>>>
>>>>Additionally, it is not uncommon that analytics systems get
>>>>
>>>>
>some of
>
>
>>>>the basics wrong at times--robots and spiders inflate PV
>>>>
>>>>
>counts, have
>
>
>>>>to be removed and reprocessed; commerce events fail to capture
>>>>
>>>>
>and
>
>
>>>>reported revenue does not match financial systems; "clicks"
>>>>
>>>>
>from
>
>
>>>>Google or Overture don't match "visits" tracked by the
>>>>
>>>>
>analytics
>
>
>>>>application--all of these events are easily explained by folks
>>>>
>>>>
>like
>
>
>>>>you and I but all have the potential to degrade the customers
>>>>perception of the accuracy of the system (again, in my
>>>>
>>>>
>experience.)
>
>
>>>>But let's ask the group: There are dozens of analytics vendor
>>>>
>>>>
>sales
>
>
>>>>people monitoring the group right now--have any of you had
>>>>
>>>>
>prospects
>
>
>>>>ask you about the accuracy of the data you collect? How about
>>>>
>>>>
>before
>
>
>>>>JupiterResearch published our cookie report? How about before
>>>>
>>>>
>Belden
>
>
>>>>and RedEye published their reports?
>>>>
>>>>Maybe nobody is asking you but I personally recall being asked
>>>>
>>>>
>about
>
>
>>>>the accuracy of these types of systems well before anyone was
>>>>
>>>>
>publicly
>
>
>>>>talking about cookies and the context was rarely accuracy of
>>>>
>>>>
>cookies
>
>
>>>>... it was simply "how accurate is the data you collect?" I
>>>>
>>>>
>mean, I
>
>
>>>>thought it was important enough to ask Jim MacIntyre to write
>>>>
>>>>
>a hack
>
>
>>>>"Understand Where Data Gets Lost" (Hack #21) in "Web Site
>>>>
>>>>
>Measurement
>
>
>>>>Hacks".
>>>>
>>>>Don't ask me why they care, but companies seem to care.
>>>>
>>>>So when anyone comes along and says "accuracy really doesn't
>>>>
>>>>
>matter
>
>
>>>>... just manage based on trends" I think the message may not
>>>>
>>>>
>have the
>
>
>>>>intended effect. Some companies I've talked to about this
>>>>
>>>>
>topic have
>
>
>>>>said that the "manage based on trends" answer feels like a cop-
>>>>
>>>>
>out
>
>
>>>>from the vendors, a non-answer to their questions about data
>>>>
>>>>
>accuracy.
>
>
>>>>And I agree with Andrew when he says that "Web Analytics is
>>>>
>>>>
>not, and
>
>
>>>>need not be, an exact science" but perhaps when some talk
>>>>
>>>>
>about an
>
>
>>>>"infinitely measureable medium" what companies actually hear
>>>>
>>>>
>is "web
>
>
>>>>analytics can be an exact science because it is infinitely
>>>>
>>>>
>>measurable."
>>
>>
>>>>Maybe we need to call the Internet a "finitely measurable
>>>>
>>>>
>medium" and
>
>
>>>>sell tools and technologies with this in mind?
>>>>
>>>>So yeah, I think understanding the risks to measurement
>>>>
>>>>
>associated
>
>
>>>>with cookie blocking and deletion is important. Because
>>>>
>>>>
>companies
>
>
>>>>persist in their concern about accuracy of data, because some,
>>>>
>>>>
>** not
>
>
>>>>all **, vendors dissemble when asked about accuracy issues in
>>>>
>>>>
>their
>
>
>>>>technology, and because very, very few have the sophistication
>>>>
>>>>
>about
>
>
>>>>this stuff that Jim, Jim, Hurol and Andrew do.
>>>>
>>>>Pretty much the answer you expected from me, huh?
>>>>
>>>>I suppose, in the end, it's all about education. Good thing we
>>>>
>>>>
>have
>
>
>>>>the WAA Education Committee!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>---------------------------------------
>>>>Web Metrics Discussion Group
>>>>Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
>>>>Author, Web Analytics Demystified
>>>>http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>-----
>
>
>>>>YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>>>>
>>>>    * Visit your group "webanalytics
>>>>      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics>" on the web.
>>>>    * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>>      webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>><mailto:webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
>>
>>
>subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
>>>>    * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
>>>>
>>>>
>of
>
>
>>>>      Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>-----
>
>
>>>--
>>>Andrew Edwards
>>>Managing Partner
>>>Technology Leaders
>>>230 Park Avenue
>>>New York, NY 10169
>>>(212) 808-3058
>>>Cell: (917) 602-0083
>>>aedwards@t...
>>>www.technologyleaders.com
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------
>Web Metrics Discussion Group
>Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
>Author, Web Analytics Demystified
>http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Andrew Edwards
Managing Partner
Technology Leaders
230 Park Avenue
New York, NY 10169
(212) 808-3058
Cell: (917) 602-0083
aedwards@...
www.technologyleaders.com






---------------------------------------
Web Metrics Discussion Group
Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
Author, Web Analytics Demystified http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

Heh, I love this sentence in June's email:

"The WAA definition of Web Analytics is the offical definition."

I'm not a member of the WAA but I personally think that ** whatever **
data you can collect that will help you understand the needs, desires
and intent of your visiting audience is useful.  I've seen some
brilliant impelementations of analytics + customer voice that
significantly enhance a companies ability to understand their visitors
and manage the customer experience.

Sam Decker from Dell says it best when he reminds us that "it's not
about data, it's about PEOPLE!"

"Official definition" or not, web analytics for me encompasses any
data that provides measurable insight into the visitor's experience.
Survey, performance, intent, satisfaction, ... you name it.  As long
as it can be integrated and understood in a way that is beneficial to
the online business (and ultimately the web visitor) I say "analyze away!"

My $0.02.

Eric Peterson


--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "jli8t8" <jli8t8@y...> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> FYI...Active email exchanges occurred outside this Group in August
> as the WAA Education committee needed to include a definition
> of "What is Web Analytics?" in the upcoming WAA-UBC Web Analytics
> online course.
>
> The WAA definition of Web Analytics is the offical definition.
> However, I think we acknowledge that panels, usability studies and
> surveys should be deployed when necessary to ensure we gain a true
> understanding, as Sam says, of "the whole picture".  As such,
> these "other methods" are given brief high-level coverage in the
> more advanced courses.  The information that comes out of the Web
> Analytics tools tells us WHAT is happening.  WHY the WHAT is
> happening often requires discussion with some real live people
> through other research means, online or offline.
>
> It's my sense that we have a problem with terminology and
> the drawing of boundaries rather than being unconcerned with
> consumer insight.  And it's not a minor problem, because we risk
> confusing the rest of our organizations and clients about how
> we "do" analytics.  I can envision departments not budgeting for
> secondary research because they think all relevant insight will be
> gained from main Web Analytics tool.
>
> Neil Mason addressed this fuzziness of terminology in this ClickZ
> column in early August.  He has a suggestion...that the broader
> scope of analytics be called "e-business consumer insight"...here's
> an excerpt:
>
> "...If panel data and survey analysis and interpretation aren't part
> of Web analytics, for example, what is it? It's part of a wider e-
> marketing discipline. It's more holistic and puts the focus on the
> consumer rather than the site or channel. Increasingly we talk
> about "e-CI," or e-business consumer insight. It's an approach that
> puts the consumer at the heart of the matter....".  Here's a link to
> Neil's ClickZ article "Defining Web Analytics"
> http://www.clickz.com/experts/crm/analyze_data/article.php/3525521
> and his follow-up article on "Defining Web Analytics: Market
> Intelligence"
> http://www.clickz.com/experts/crm/analyze_data/article.php/3527436
>
>
>
> June Li
> ClickInsight Corporation
> Tel: 416.207.9623
> June.Li@C...
>
>
> --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Sam Ladner" <saml@c...> wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I agree that survey research is a separate discipline, yet...I
> think
> > we ought conceive of analytics in a broader way. Analytics data are
> > the result of a form of empirical research, as are survey data.
> >
> > Both simply *indicate* user behaviour, preferences, etc. We must
> infer
> > significance from either.
> >
> > That said, I tend to conceive of analytics of but one tool in my
> > research toolbox. After all, we are tasked with deciphering
> > significance daily. It is simply the *method* by which we gather
> these
> > data that may differ.
> >
> > My clients don't seem to see that user research should go hand in
> hand
> > with analytics data. I do a lot of work trying to show them that
> these
> > are simply puzzle pieces, and they are all required to see the
> entire
> > picture. Analytics without usability, for example, is not the whole
> > picture.
> >
> > But what do others see? Are the professionals on this list most
> > concerned with data, not so much with consumer insight?
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Edwards
> <aedwards@t...> wrote:
> > > I think we would all agree that an understanding of "what the
> end user
> > > is thinking" is key. But survey-gathering is a separate
> discipline (I
> > > believe) and that is probably why it is not much discussed in a
> web
> > > analytics forum.
> > >
> > > We are not (I don't think) trying to say that web analytics can
> solve
> > > every customer-facing issue--just that it can provide essential,
> > > objective information about user-behavior trends.
> > >
> > > --Andrew Edwards
> > >
> > > Alan Meekings wrote:
> > >
> > > > I've followed the recent `head in the sand' thread with great
> > interest.
> > > >
> > > > What I'm struggling with, though, is that no-one, so far, has
> talked
> > > > about `user experience', the other side of the firewall, so to
> speak.
> > > >
> > > > The dialogue seems to have revolved around what can be deduced
> from
> > > > stats emerging from site usage – cookies, et
> >
> >
> > al.
> > > >
> > > > I'd be the first to acknowledge the value of usage-based data.
> > > > However, I contend that often the most useful insights for web
> design
> > > > and development come from surveying users directly, rather
> than from
> > > > trying to infer insights about what's in users' heads from
> site usage
> > > > data.
> > > >
> > > > Whose head is in the sand here? Is our collective focus on
> site-based
> > > > data inevitable for a web analytics forum, or should we also
> be
> > > > discussing topics such as how to use exit surveys to best
> effect, the
> > > > benefits of comparative `mystery shopping', etc?
> > > >
> > > > Assuming my head is not in the sand, am I simply barking up
> the wrong
> > > > tree instead? ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Regards as ever,
> > > >
> > > > *Alan*
> > > >
> > > > _ _
> > > >
> > > > *Alan Meekings*
> > > >
> > > > *t* +44 (0) 7785 258 741 |* f* +44 (0) 1406 490 016 |* skype
> > *alanmeekings
> > > >
> > > > *e *alan@l...
> > > > <mailto:alan@l...> |* w*
> > > > _http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk
> > > > <http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk/>_
> > > >
> > > > Landmark Consulting | 3 The Atrium | 30 Vincent Square |
> > Westminster |
> > > > LONDON SW1P 2NW | UK
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > *From:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
> > > > [mailto:webanalytics@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Eric
> Peterson
> > > > *Sent:* 23 August 2005 18:38
> > > > *To:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
> > > > *Subject:* [webanalytics] Re: Head in the Sand?
> > > >
> > > > Jim, I dare say you're not "just an old fool who's been doing
> > > > analytics so long I've finally lost context" but perhaps the
> arguement
> > > > you (and MacIntyre and Hurol and Andrew) are making is perhaps
> > > > contrary to people's understanding of what these applications
> are
> > > > "supposed" to do.
> > > >
> > > > In my experience there is almost always a concern
> about "accuracy of
> > > > data" in the sales process for web analytics applications--
> right or
> > > > wrong. Some bean counter who expects that all software should
> be
> > > > perfect, especially a tracking system. This guy or gal will
> perhaps
> > > > never see or use the system, but they want to ensure that the
> data
> > > > that is collected is "accurate." Again, 69% of these folks say
> that
> > > > accuracy of data is very important to them when making an
> analytics
> > > > purchase.
> > > >
> > > > Additionally, it is not uncommon that analytics systems get
> some of
> > > > the basics wrong at times--robots and spiders inflate PV
> counts, have
> > > > to be removed and reprocessed; commerce events fail to capture
> and
> > > > reported revenue does not match financial systems; "clicks"
> from
> > > > Google or Overture don't match "visits" tracked by the
> analytics
> > > > application--all of these events are easily explained by folks
> like
> > > > you and I but all have the potential to degrade the customers
> > > > perception of the accuracy of the system (again, in my
> experience.)
> > > >
> > > > But let's ask the group: There are dozens of analytics vendor
> sales
> > > > people monitoring the group right now--have any of you had
> prospects
> > > > ask you about the accuracy of the data you collect? How about
> before
> > > > JupiterResearch published our cookie report? How about before
> Belden
> > > > and RedEye published their reports?
> > > >
> > > > Maybe nobody is asking you but I personally recall being asked
> about
> > > > the accuracy of these types of systems well before anyone was
> publicly
> > > > talking about cookies and the context was rarely accuracy of
> cookies
> > > > ... it was simply "how accurate is the data you collect?" I
> mean, I
> > > > thought it was important enough to ask Jim MacIntyre to write
> a hack
> > > > "Understand Where Data Gets Lost" (Hack #21) in "Web Site
> Measurement
> > > > Hacks".
> > > >
> > > > Don't ask me why they care, but companies seem to care.
> > > >
> > > > So when anyone comes along and says "accuracy really doesn't
> matter
> > > > ... just manage based on trends" I think the message may not
> have the
> > > > intended effect. Some companies I've talked to about this
> topic have
> > > > said that the "manage based on trends" answer feels like a cop-
> out
> > > > from the vendors, a non-answer to their questions about data
> accuracy.
> > > >
> > > > And I agree with Andrew when he says that "Web Analytics is
> not, and
> > > > need not be, an exact science" but perhaps when some talk
> about an
> > > > "infinitely measureable medium" what companies actually hear
> is "web
> > > > analytics can be an exact science because it is infinitely
> > measurable."
> > > >
> > > > Maybe we need to call the Internet a "finitely measurable
> medium" and
> > > > sell tools and technologies with this in mind?
> > > >
> > > > So yeah, I think understanding the risks to measurement
> associated
> > > > with cookie blocking and deletion is important. Because
> companies
> > > > persist in their concern about accuracy of data, because some,
> ** not
> > > > all **, vendors dissemble when asked about accuracy issues in
> their
> > > > technology, and because very, very few have the sophistication
> about
> > > > this stuff that Jim, Jim, Hurol and Andrew do.
> > > >
> > > > Pretty much the answer you expected from me, huh?
> > > >
> > > > I suppose, in the end, it's all about education. Good thing we
> have
> > > > the WAA Education Committee!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------
> > > > Web Metrics Discussion Group
> > > > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
> > > > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
> > > > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > >
> > > >     * Visit your group "webanalytics
> > > >       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics>" on the web.
> > > >     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > >       webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > <mailto:webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
> subject=Unsubscribe>
> > > >     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> of
> > > >       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andrew Edwards
> > > Managing Partner
> > > Technology Leaders
> > > 230 Park Avenue
> > > New York, NY 10169
> > > (212) 808-3058
> > > Cell: (917) 602-0083
> > > aedwards@t...
> > > www.technologyleaders.com

Jim,
Given Nick knows who I am since my Webtrends days a simple "I'll get
back to you shortly" would have done the trick and shut me up. ;-)

I can understand the massive confusion on finding his desk moved
around the building in Staines, and the door sign changed from NotIQ
to Webtrends. But while on your toes, could you send a reminder?
Thanks!

/F




--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Jim Sterne <jsterne@t...> wrote:
> Hi Fulton -
>
> As the President of the WAA, let me assure you that
> the Association is alive and well and that the International
> Committee is too. So why the silence?
>
> Well, our International Committee powerhouse is Nick Sharp
> (copied above) and Nick was recently on holiday. Just from
> that turn of phrase, you might be able to discern that he's
> from the UK. (Americans go on vacation.) And, not being
> an American, he takes more than three days in a row.
>
> PLUS, when he got back, he found the sign on his door at
> WebTrends had changed to Vice President and general manager,
> EMEA. So he's been a bit tied up accepting accolades and
> going to congratulatory parties, er, I mean taking over the
> responsibilities of his new role...
>
> So please stay tuned, Fulton and any others of you who have tried
> to get in touch with the WAA in the past, please do so again. I
> think you'll find we're up and running.... and you can always
> email me directly and keep me on my toes....
>
> At 10:50 PM 8/31/2005, webbanalys wrote:
> >I've tried twice to get any kind of response from WAA with regards
to
> >their international committee, but it seems either they don't read
> >emails or the contact person will reject any email from someone
working
> >at a competitor:
> >
> >http://www.webanalyticsassociation.org/en/cmt/?3
> >
> >Is there any other member of the international committee that
> >participates in this forum? Or is the international committee a
one man
> >band?
> >
> >Rgds
> >Fulton
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------------
> >Web Metrics Discussion Group
> >Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
> >Author, Web Analytics Demystified
> >http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> Jim Sterne      Target Marketing of Santa Barbara
> Consultant, Author, Speaker on Website Success
> 805-965-3184    www.targeting.com
> Emetrics Summit   www.emetrics.org
> President, Web Analytics Association
> www.WebAnalyticsAssociation.org
> --------------------------------------------------

> "Official definition" or not, web analytics for me encompasses any
data that provides measurable insight into the visitor's experience.
Survey, performance, intent, satisfaction, ... you name it.  As long
as it can be integrated and understood in a way that is beneficial to
the online business (and ultimately the web visitor) I say "analyze away!"

And that's the problem at hand, isn't it - "understood in a way that is
beneficial to
the online business"?

An opinion, one which is not meant to reflect any decision of the WAA
either way...

Here's the problem I (and others, I'd guess) have with qualitative data -
it's not as **reliable** as quantitative data and therefore not as
actionable.  You can waste a lot of time messing around with it, especially
if you don't look at the behavior first.  Behavior **reliably** predicts
behavior, opinions, feelings, etc. do not.

In my experience, if you segment by qualitative data first, then look for
quantitative actionable behavior, you usually end up with a mess, lacking
correlation.  If you segment by behavior first, then do the qualitative by
behavioral segment, at least you can act on the information, because you
have something to "grab on to" - a behavior, a visitor or customer "did
this" or "did not do this".

*If* you find a certain behavioral segment *reliably* has a certain opinion
or feeling, cool.  When a new visitor engages in the same behavior, you can
reasonably assume they have the same opinion or feelings.  It doesn't work
the other way around; people with the same opinion often take very
different actions and engage in different behaviors.

To illustrate: "Likelihood to buy again" - Survey:  How likely are you to
make another purchase from us in the next 90 days?  Statistically sound
random sample.

Answer:              Action:

70% unlikely -  50% of these made a purchase in the next 90 days
30% likely - 25% of these made a purchase in the next 90 days

Neat, huh?  Really actionable...man, let's go make some money on this...

The behavioral breakdown showed that the "true" answer (as in observable
behavior / predictable outcome) depended on where the customer was in their
LifeCycle.

Here's an  example:

Behavioral Segment: New Customer - 1st purchase less than 30 days ago

"Unlikely" - 90% of these made a purchase in the next 90 days
"Likely" - 15% of these made a purchase in the next 90 days

Clearly, with a New Customer, how they answer the survey negatively
correlates to the actual action that will occur.  They do the opposite of
what they say.

And that, my friends, is why some of us are suspicious of anything but
using the actual behavior of people to act on.

Further, if I cross the "New Customer" aspect of behavior with "product of
first purchase" and "responded to campaign" behavior, the negative
correlation is **even higher** - I can basically predict whether a New
Customer will make a purchase in the next 90 days based on campign and
product purchased.

Why do I need to ask them anything, then?

You can ask them anything you want, but the behavior is a fact, and the
fact is this: whatever their answer is, if they engaged in a particular
purchase through a particular campaign in the past 30 days, I already know
what they're going to do (or not do) next.

So I don't bother to ask...

Jim, (you ask) how about something softer, like "Usability"?  I mean, if we
see a certain kind of behavior, like abandoning a funnel, unless we ask
them, how will we know why they are abandoning?

Do you need their "opinion" on why?  Really?

1.  Just look at the funnel and pretend you are them - why are they
abandoning?
2.  Change the funnel and see if abandonment goes down.  If it does, you
were right.  If it doesn't, you were wrong.
3.  Repeat

Does qualitative data have a place?  Sure.  In my opinion, to flesh out or
provide more detail (if needed) to the quantitative segments of actionable
behavior.  For example, you want to know the average age of a behavioral
segment so you can tweak copy.

Excellent use.  Perfect.  Actionable, because you already have the
behavior.

You can ask people "why" or "how" or "when" but don't bet the farm on the
results, because their answers are not *reliably* predictive of their
actions.

Online, offline, inline, it's always the same result.  What people think
does not reliably translate into what they will do.  And in most cases,
"what they do" is the point of financial leverage - so who cares what they
think, at least as expressed by them when asked?

Jim
jim@...
http://www.jimnovo.com



My $0.02.

Eric Peterson


--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "jli8t8" <jli8t8@y...> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> FYI...Active email exchanges occurred outside this Group in August
> as the WAA Education committee needed to include a definition
> of "What is Web Analytics?" in the upcoming WAA-UBC Web Analytics
> online course.
>
> The WAA definition of Web Analytics is the offical definition.
> However, I think we acknowledge that panels, usability studies and
> surveys should be deployed when necessary to ensure we gain a true
> understanding, as Sam says, of "the whole picture".  As such,
> these "other methods" are given brief high-level coverage in the
> more advanced courses.  The information that comes out of the Web
> Analytics tools tells us WHAT is happening.  WHY the WHAT is
> happening often requires discussion with some real live people
> through other research means, online or offline.
>
> It's my sense that we have a problem with terminology and
> the drawing of boundaries rather than being unconcerned with
> consumer insight.  And it's not a minor problem, because we risk
> confusing the rest of our organizations and clients about how
> we "do" analytics.  I can envision departments not budgeting for
> secondary research because they think all relevant insight will be
> gained from main Web Analytics tool.
>
> Neil Mason addressed this fuzziness of terminology in this ClickZ
> column in early August.  He has a suggestion...that the broader
> scope of analytics be called "e-business consumer insight"...here's
> an excerpt:
>
> "...If panel data and survey analysis and interpretation aren't part
> of Web analytics, for example, what is it? It's part of a wider e-
> marketing discipline. It's more holistic and puts the focus on the
> consumer rather than the site or channel. Increasingly we talk
> about "e-CI," or e-business consumer insight. It's an approach that
> puts the consumer at the heart of the matter....".  Here's a link to
> Neil's ClickZ article "Defining Web Analytics"
> http://www.clickz.com/experts/crm/analyze_data/article.php/3525521
> and his follow-up article on "Defining Web Analytics: Market
> Intelligence"
> http://www.clickz.com/experts/crm/analyze_data/article.php/3527436
>
>
>
> June Li
> ClickInsight Corporation
> Tel: 416.207.9623
> June.Li@C...
>
>
> --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Sam Ladner" <saml@c...> wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I agree that survey research is a separate discipline, yet...I
> think
> > we ought conceive of analytics in a broader way. Analytics data are
> > the result of a form of empirical research, as are survey data.
> >
> > Both simply *indicate* user behaviour, preferences, etc. We must
> infer
> > significance from either.
> >
> > That said, I tend to conceive of analytics of but one tool in my
> > research toolbox. After all, we are tasked with deciphering
> > significance daily. It is simply the *method* by which we gather
> these
> > data that may differ.
> >
> > My clients don't seem to see that user research should go hand in
> hand
> > with analytics data. I do a lot of work trying to show them that
> these
> > are simply puzzle pieces, and they are all required to see the
> entire
> > picture. Analytics without usability, for example, is not the whole
> > picture.
> >
> > But what do others see? Are the professionals on this list most
> > concerned with data, not so much with consumer insight?
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Edwards
> <aedwards@t...> wrote:
> > > I think we would all agree that an understanding of "what the
> end user
> > > is thinking" is key. But survey-gathering is a separate
> discipline (I
> > > believe) and that is probably why it is not much discussed in a
> web
> > > analytics forum.
> > >
> > > We are not (I don't think) trying to say that web analytics can
> solve
> > > every customer-facing issue--just that it can provide essential,
> > > objective information about user-behavior trends.
> > >
> > > --Andrew Edwards
> > >
> > > Alan Meekings wrote:
> > >
> > > > I've followed the recent `head in the sand' thread with great
> > interest.
> > > >
> > > > What I'm struggling with, though, is that no-one, so far, has
> talked
> > > > about `user experience', the other side of the firewall, so to
> speak.
> > > >
> > > > The dialogue seems to have revolved around what can be deduced
> from
> > > > stats emerging from site usage - cookies, et
> >
> >
> > al.
> > > >
> > > > I'd be the first to acknowledge the value of usage-based data.
> > > > However, I contend that often the most useful insights for web
> design
> > > > and development come from surveying users directly, rather
> than from
> > > > trying to infer insights about what's in users' heads from
> site usage
> > > > data.
> > > >
> > > > Whose head is in the sand here? Is our collective focus on
> site-based
> > > > data inevitable for a web analytics forum, or should we also
> be
> > > > discussing topics such as how to use exit surveys to best
> effect, the
> > > > benefits of comparative `mystery shopping', etc?
> > > >
> > > > Assuming my head is not in the sand, am I simply barking up
> the wrong
> > > > tree instead? ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Regards as ever,
> > > >
> > > > *Alan*
> > > >
> > > > _ _
> > > >
> > > > *Alan Meekings*
> > > >
> > > > *t* +44 (0) 7785 258 741 |* f* +44 (0) 1406 490 016 |* skype
> > *alanmeekings
> > > >
> > > > *e *alan@l...
> > > > <mailto:alan@l...> |* w*
> > > > _http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk
> > > > <http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk/>_
> > > >
> > > > Landmark Consulting | 3 The Atrium | 30 Vincent Square |
> > Westminster |
> > > > LONDON SW1P 2NW | UK
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > *From:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
> > > > [mailto:webanalytics@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Eric
> Peterson
> > > > *Sent:* 23 August 2005 18:38
> > > > *To:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
> > > > *Subject:* [webanalytics] Re: Head in the Sand?
> > > >
> > > > Jim, I dare say you're not "just an old fool who's been doing
> > > > analytics so long I've finally lost context" but perhaps the
> arguement
> > > > you (and MacIntyre and Hurol and Andrew) are making is perhaps
> > > > contrary to people's understanding of what these applications
> are
> > > > "supposed" to do.
> > > >
> > > > In my experience there is almost always a concern
> about "accuracy of
> > > > data" in the sales process for web analytics applications--
> right or
> > > > wrong. Some bean counter who expects that all software should
> be
> > > > perfect, especially a tracking system. This guy or gal will
> perhaps
> > > > never see or use the system, but they want to ensure that the
> data
> > > > that is collected is "accurate." Again, 69% of these folks say
> that
> > > > accuracy of data is very important to them when making an
> analytics
> > > > purchase.
> > > >
> > > > Additionally, it is not uncommon that analytics systems get
> some of
> > > > the basics wrong at times--robots and spiders inflate PV
> counts, have
> > > > to be removed and reprocessed; commerce events fail to capture
> and
> > > > reported revenue does not match financial systems; "clicks"
> from
> > > > Google or Overture don't match "visits" tracked by the
> analytics
> > > > application--all of these events are easily explained by folks
> like
> > > > you and I but all have the potential to degrade the customers
> > > > perception of the accuracy of the system (again, in my
> experience.)
> > > >
> > > > But let's ask the group: There are dozens of analytics vendor
> sales
> > > > people monitoring the group right now--have any of you had
> prospects
> > > > ask you about the accuracy of the data you collect? How about
> before
> > > > JupiterResearch published our cookie report? How about before
> Belden
> > > > and RedEye published their reports?
> > > >
> > > > Maybe nobody is asking you but I personally recall being asked
> about
> > > > the accuracy of these types of systems well before anyone was
> publicly
> > > > talking about cookies and the context was rarely accuracy of
> cookies
> > > > ... it was simply "how accurate is the data you collect?" I
> mean, I
> > > > thought it was important enough to ask Jim MacIntyre to write
> a hack
> > > > "Understand Where Data Gets Lost" (Hack #21) in "Web Site
> Measurement
> > > > Hacks".
> > > >
> > > > Don't ask me why they care, but companies seem to care.
> > > >
> > > > So when anyone comes along and says "accuracy really doesn't
> matter
> > > > ... just manage based on trends" I think the message may not
> have the
> > > > intended effect. Some companies I've talked to about this
> topic have
> > > > said that the "manage based on trends" answer feels like a cop-
> out
> > > > from the vendors, a non-answer to their questions about data
> accuracy.
> > > >
> > > > And I agree with Andrew when he says that "Web Analytics is
> not, and
> > > > need not be, an exact science" but perhaps when some talk
> about an
> > > > "infinitely measureable medium" what companies actually hear
> is "web
> > > > analytics can be an exact science because it is infinitely
> > measurable."
> > > >
> > > > Maybe we need to call the Internet a "finitely measurable
> medium" and
> > > > sell tools and technologies with this in mind?
> > > >
> > > > So yeah, I think understanding the risks to measurement
> associated
> > > > with cookie blocking and deletion is important. Because
> companies
> > > > persist in their concern about accuracy of data, because some,
> ** not
> > > > all **, vendors dissemble when asked about accuracy issues in
> their
> > > > technology, and because very, very few have the sophistication
> about
> > > > this stuff that Jim, Jim, Hurol and Andrew do.
> > > >
> > > > Pretty much the answer you expected from me, huh?
> > > >
> > > > I suppose, in the end, it's all about education. Good thing we
> have
> > > > the WAA Education Committee!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------
> > > > Web Metrics Discussion Group
> > > > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
> > > > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
> > > > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > >
> > > >     * Visit your group "webanalytics
> > > >       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics>" on the web.
> > > >     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > >       webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > <mailto:webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
> subject=Unsubscribe>
> > > >     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> of
> > > >       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andrew Edwards
> > > Managing Partner
> > > Technology Leaders
> > > 230 Park Avenue
> > > New York, NY 10169
> > > (212) 808-3058
> > > Cell: (917) 602-0083
> > > aedwards@t...
> > > www.technologyleaders.com






---------------------------------------
Web Metrics Discussion Group
Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
Author, Web Analytics Demystified
http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

   a..  Visit your group "webanalytics" on the web.

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---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----

The argument is well put.

  Jim Novo wrote:

>>"Official definition" or not, web analytics for me encompasses any
>>
>>
>data that provides measurable insight into the visitor's experience.
>Survey, performance, intent, satisfaction, ... you name it.  As long
>as it can be integrated and understood in a way that is beneficial to
>the online business (and ultimately the web visitor) I say "analyze away!"
>
>And that's the problem at hand, isn't it - "understood in a way that is
>beneficial to
>the online business"?
>
>An opinion, one which is not meant to reflect any decision of the WAA
>either way...
>
>Here's the problem I (and others, I'd guess) have with qualitative data -
>it's not as **reliable** as quantitative data and therefore not as
>actionable.  You can waste a lot of time messing around with it, especially
>if you don't look at the behavior first.  Behavior **reliably** predicts
>behavior, opinions, feelings, etc. do not.
>
>In my experience, if you segment by qualitative data first, then look for
>quantitative actionable behavior, you usually end up with a mess, lacking
>correlation.  If you segment by behavior first, then do the qualitative by
>behavioral segment, at least you can act on the information, because you
>have something to "grab on to" - a behavior, a visitor or customer "did
>this" or "did not do this".
>
>*If* you find a certain behavioral segment *reliably* has a certain opinion
>or feeling, cool.  When a new visitor engages in the same behavior, you can
>reasonably assume they have the same opinion or feelings.  It doesn't work
>the other way around; people with the same opinion often take very
>different actions and engage in different behaviors.
>
>To illustrate: "Likelihood to buy again" - Survey:  How likely are you to
>make another purchase from us in the next 90 days?  Statistically sound
>random sample.
>
>Answer:              Action:
>
>70% unlikely -  50% of these made a purchase in the next 90 days
>30% likely - 25% of these made a purchase in the next 90 days
>
>Neat, huh?  Really actionable...man, let's go make some money on this...
>
>The behavioral breakdown showed that the "true" answer (as in observable
>behavior / predictable outcome) depended on where the customer was in their
>LifeCycle.
>
>Here's an  example:
>
>Behavioral Segment: New Customer - 1st purchase less than 30 days ago
>
>"Unlikely" - 90% of these made a purchase in the next 90 days
>"Likely" - 15% of these made a purchase in the next 90 days
>
>Clearly, with a New Customer, how they answer the survey negatively
>correlates to the actual action that will occur.  They do the opposite of
>what they say.
>
>And that, my friends, is why some of us are suspicious of anything but
>using the actual behavior of people to act on.
>
>Further, if I cross the "New Customer" aspect of behavior with "product of
>first purchase" and "responded to campaign" behavior, the negative
>correlation is **even higher** - I can basically predict whether a New
>Customer will make a purchase in the next 90 days based on campign and
>product purchased.
>
>Why do I need to ask them anything, then?
>
>You can ask them anything you want, but the behavior is a fact, and the
>fact is this: whatever their answer is, if they engaged in a particular
>purchase through a particular campaign in the past 30 days, I already know
>what they're going to do (or not do) next.
>
>So I don't bother to ask...
>
>Jim, (you ask) how about something softer, like "Usability"?  I mean, if we
>see a certain kind of behavior, like abandoning a funnel, unless we ask
>them, how will we know why they are abandoning?
>
>Do you need their "opinion" on why?  Really?
>
>1.  Just look at the funnel and pretend you are them - why are they
>abandoning?
>2.  Change the funnel and see if abandonment goes down.  If it does, you
>were right.  If it doesn't, you were wrong.
>3.  Repeat
>
>Does qualitative data have a place?  Sure.  In my opinion, to flesh out or
>provide more detail (if needed) to the quantitative segments of actionable
>behavior.  For example, you want to know the average age of a behavioral
>segment so you can tweak copy.
>
>Excellent use.  Perfect.  Actionable, because you already have the
>behavior.
>
>You can ask people "why" or "how" or "when" but don't bet the farm on the
>results, because their answers are not *reliably* predictive of their
>actions.
>
>Online, offline, inline, it's always the same result.  What people think
>does not reliably translate into what they will do.  And in most cases,
>"what they do" is the point of financial leverage - so who cares what they
>think, at least as expressed by them when asked?
>
>Jim
>jim@...
>http://www.jimnovo.com
>
>
>
>My $0.02.
>
>Eric Peterson
>
>
>--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "jli8t8" <jli8t8@y...> wrote:
>
>
>>Hello all,
>>
>>FYI...Active email exchanges occurred outside this Group in August
>>as the WAA Education committee needed to include a definition
>>of "What is Web Analytics?" in the upcoming WAA-UBC Web Analytics
>>online course.
>>
>>The WAA definition of Web Analytics is the offical definition.
>>However, I think we acknowledge that panels, usability studies and
>>surveys should be deployed when necessary to ensure we gain a true
>>understanding, as Sam says, of "the whole picture".  As such,
>>these "other methods" are given brief high-level coverage in the
>>more advanced courses.  The information that comes out of the Web
>>Analytics tools tells us WHAT is happening.  WHY the WHAT is
>>happening often requires discussion with some real live people
>>through other research means, online or offline.
>>
>>It's my sense that we have a problem with terminology and
>>the drawing of boundaries rather than being unconcerned with
>>consumer insight.  And it's not a minor problem, because we risk
>>confusing the rest of our organizations and clients about how
>>we "do" analytics.  I can envision departments not budgeting for
>>secondary research because they think all relevant insight will be
>>gained from main Web Analytics tool.
>>
>>Neil Mason addressed this fuzziness of terminology in this ClickZ
>>column in early August.  He has a suggestion...that the broader
>>scope of analytics be called "e-business consumer insight"...here's
>>an excerpt:
>>
>>"...If panel data and survey analysis and interpretation aren't part
>>of Web analytics, for example, what is it? It's part of a wider e-
>>marketing discipline. It's more holistic and puts the focus on the
>>consumer rather than the site or channel. Increasingly we talk
>>about "e-CI," or e-business consumer insight. It's an approach that
>>puts the consumer at the heart of the matter....".  Here's a link to
>>Neil's ClickZ article "Defining Web Analytics"
>>http://www.clickz.com/experts/crm/analyze_data/article.php/3525521
>>and his follow-up article on "Defining Web Analytics: Market
>>Intelligence"
>>http://www.clickz.com/experts/crm/analyze_data/article.php/3527436
>>
>>
>>
>>June Li
>>ClickInsight Corporation
>>Tel: 416.207.9623
>>June.Li@C...
>>
>>
>>--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Sam Ladner" <saml@c...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hello all,
>>>
>>>I agree that survey research is a separate discipline, yet...I
>>>
>>>
>>think
>>
>>
>>>we ought conceive of analytics in a broader way. Analytics data are
>>>the result of a form of empirical research, as are survey data.
>>>
>>>Both simply *indicate* user behaviour, preferences, etc. We must
>>>
>>>
>>infer
>>
>>
>>>significance from either.
>>>
>>>That said, I tend to conceive of analytics of but one tool in my
>>>research toolbox. After all, we are tasked with deciphering
>>>significance daily. It is simply the *method* by which we gather
>>>
>>>
>>these
>>
>>
>>>data that may differ.
>>>
>>>My clients don't seem to see that user research should go hand in
>>>
>>>
>>hand
>>
>>
>>>with analytics data. I do a lot of work trying to show them that
>>>
>>>
>>these
>>
>>
>>>are simply puzzle pieces, and they are all required to see the
>>>
>>>
>>entire
>>
>>
>>>picture. Analytics without usability, for example, is not the whole
>>>picture.
>>>
>>>But what do others see? Are the professionals on this list most
>>>concerned with data, not so much with consumer insight?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Edwards
>>>
>>>
>><aedwards@t...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>I think we would all agree that an understanding of "what the
>>>>
>>>>
>>end user
>>
>>
>>>>is thinking" is key. But survey-gathering is a separate
>>>>
>>>>
>>discipline (I
>>
>>
>>>>believe) and that is probably why it is not much discussed in a
>>>>
>>>>
>>web
>>
>>
>>>>analytics forum.
>>>>
>>>>We are not (I don't think) trying to say that web analytics can
>>>>
>>>>
>>solve
>>
>>
>>>>every customer-facing issue--just that it can provide essential,
>>>>objective information about user-behavior trends.
>>>>
>>>>--Andrew Edwards
>>>>
>>>>Alan Meekings wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I've followed the recent `head in the sand' thread with great
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>interest.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>What I'm struggling with, though, is that no-one, so far, has
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>talked
>>
>>
>>>>>about `user experience', the other side of the firewall, so to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>speak.
>>
>>
>>>>>The dialogue seems to have revolved around what can be deduced
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>from
>>
>>
>>>>>stats emerging from site usage - cookies, et
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>al.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>I'd be the first to acknowledge the value of usage-based data.
>>>>>However, I contend that often the most useful insights for web
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>design
>>
>>
>>>>>and development come from surveying users directly, rather
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>than from
>>
>>
>>>>>trying to infer insights about what's in users' heads from
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>site usage
>>
>>
>>>>>data.
>>>>>
>>>>>Whose head is in the sand here? Is our collective focus on
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>site-based
>>
>>
>>>>>data inevitable for a web analytics forum, or should we also
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>be
>>
>>
>>>>>discussing topics such as how to use exit surveys to best
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>effect, the
>>
>>
>>>>>benefits of comparative `mystery shopping', etc?
>>>>>
>>>>>Assuming my head is not in the sand, am I simply barking up
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>the wrong
>>
>>
>>>>>tree instead? ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>Regards as ever,
>>>>>
>>>>>*Alan*
>>>>>
>>>>>_ _
>>>>>
>>>>>*Alan Meekings*
>>>>>
>>>>>*t* +44 (0) 7785 258 741 |* f* +44 (0) 1406 490 016 |* skype
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>*alanmeekings
>>>
>>>
>>>>>*e *alan@l...
>>>>><mailto:alan@l...> |* w*
>>>>>_http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk
>>>>><http://www.landmarkconsulting.co.uk/>_
>>>>>
>>>>>Landmark Consulting | 3 The Atrium | 30 Vincent Square |
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>Westminster |
>>>
>>>
>>>>>LONDON SW1P 2NW | UK
>>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>*From:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>[mailto:webanalytics@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Eric
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>Peterson
>>
>>
>>>>>*Sent:* 23 August 2005 18:38
>>>>>*To:* webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>*Subject:* [webanalytics] Re: Head in the Sand?
>>>>>
>>>>>Jim, I dare say you're not "just an old fool who's been doing
>>>>>analytics so long I've finally lost context" but perhaps the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>arguement
>>
>>
>>>>>you (and MacIntyre and Hurol and Andrew) are making is perhaps
>>>>>contrary to people's understanding of what these applications
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>are
>>
>>
>>>>>"supposed" to do.
>>>>>
>>>>>In my experience there is almost always a concern
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>about "accuracy of
>>
>>
>>>>>data" in the sales process for web analytics applications--
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>right or
>>
>>
>>>>>wrong. Some bean counter who expects that all software should
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>be
>>
>>
>>>>>perfect, especially a tracking system. This guy or gal will
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>perhaps
>>
>>
>>>>>never see or use the system, but they want to ensure that the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>data
>>
>>
>>>>>that is collected is "accurate." Again, 69% of these folks say
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>that
>>
>>
>>>>>accuracy of data is very important to them when making an
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>analytics
>>
>>
>>>>>purchase.
>>>>>
>>>>>Additionally, it is not uncommon that analytics systems get
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>some of
>>
>>
>>>>>the basics wrong at times--robots and spiders inflate PV
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>counts, have
>>
>>
>>>>>to be removed and reprocessed; commerce events fail to capture
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>and
>>
>>
>>>>>reported revenue does not match financial systems; "clicks"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>from
>>
>>
>>>>>Google or Overture don't match "visits" tracked by the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>analytics
>>
>>
>>>>>application--all of these events are easily explained by folks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>like
>>
>>
>>>>>you and I but all have the potential to degrade the customers
>>>>>perception of the accuracy of the system (again, in my
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>experience.)
>>
>>
>>>>>But let's ask the group: There are dozens of analytics vendor
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>sales
>>
>>
>>>>>people monitoring the group right now--have any of you had
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>prospects
>>
>>
>>>>>ask you about the accuracy of the data you collect? How about
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>before
>>
>>
>>>>>JupiterResearch published our cookie report? How about before
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>Belden
>>
>>
>>>>>and RedEye published their reports?
>>>>>
>>>>>Maybe nobody is asking you but I personally recall being asked
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>about
>>
>>
>>>>>the accuracy of these types of systems well before anyone was
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>publicly
>>
>>
>>>>>talking about cookies and the context was rarely accuracy of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>cookies
>>
>>
>>>>>... it was simply "how accurate is the data you collect?" I
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>mean, I
>>
>>
>>>>>thought it was important enough to ask Jim MacIntyre to write
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>a hack
>>
>>
>>>>>"Understand Where Data Gets Lost" (Hack #21) in "Web Site
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>Measurement
>>
>>
>>>>>Hacks".
>>>>>
>>>>>Don't ask me why they care, but companies seem to care.
>>>>>
>>>>>So when anyone comes along and says "accuracy really doesn't
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>matter
>>
>>
>>>>>... just manage based on trends" I think the message may not
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>have the
>>
>>
>>>>>intended effect. Some companies I've talked to about this
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>topic have
>>
>>
>>>>>said that the "manage based on trends" answer feels like a cop-
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>out
>>
>>
>>>>>from the vendors, a non-answer to their questions about data
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>accuracy.
>>
>>
>>>>>And I agree with Andrew when he says that "Web Analytics is
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>not, and
>>
>>
>>>>>need not be, an exact science" but perhaps when some talk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>about an
>>
>>
>>>>>"infinitely measureable medium" what companies actually hear
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>is "web
>>
>>
>>>>>analytics can be an exact science because it is infinitely
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>measurable."
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Maybe we need to call the Internet a "finitely measurable
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>medium" and
>>
>>
>>>>>sell tools and technologies with this in mind?
>>>>>
>>>>>So yeah, I think understanding the risks to measurement
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>associated
>>
>>
>>>>>with cookie blocking and deletion is important. Because
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>companies
>>
>>
>>>>>persist in their concern about accuracy of data, because some,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>** not
>>
>>
>>>>>all **, vendors dissemble when asked about accuracy issues in
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>their
>>
>>
>>>>>technology, and because very, very few have the sophistication
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>about
>>
>>
>>>>>this stuff that Jim, Jim, Hurol and Andrew do.
>>>>>
>>>>>Pretty much the answer you expected from me, huh?
>>>>>
>>>>>I suppose, in the end, it's all about education. Good thing we
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>have
>>
>>
>>>>>the WAA Education Committee!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>---------------------------------------
>>>>>Web Metrics Discussion Group
>>>>>Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
>>>>>Author, Web Analytics Demystified
>>>>>http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>-----
>>
>>
>>>>>YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>>>>>
>>>>>    * Visit your group "webanalytics
>>>>>      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics>" on the web.
>>>>>    * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>>>      webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>><mailto:webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
>>>
>>>
>>subject=Unsubscribe>
>>
>>
>>>>>    * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>of
>>
>>
>>>>>      Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>-----
>>
>>
>>>>--
>>>>Andrew Edwards
>>>>Managing Partner
>>>>Technology Leaders
>>>>230 Park Avenue
>>>>New York, NY 10169
>>>>(212) 808-3058
>>>>Cell: (917) 602-0083
>>>>aedwards@t...
>>>>www.technologyleaders.com
>>>>
>>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------
>Web Metrics Discussion Group
>Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
>Author, Web Analytics Demystified
>http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-----
>YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>  a..  Visit your group "webanalytics" on the web.
>
>  b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>  c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-----
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------
>Web Metrics Discussion Group
>Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
>Author, Web Analytics Demystified
>http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Andrew Edwards
Managing Partner
Technology Leaders
230 Park Avenue
New York, NY 10169
(212) 808-3058
Cell: (917) 602-0083
aedwards@...
www.technologyleaders.com

Shaun Inman's product, Mint, is going to be released next week.
Several bloggers have written some early reviews:

http://jeffcroft.com/blog/archives/2005/09/mint_better_tha.php
http://www.thebignoob.com/Blog/308/mint-fresh-n-yummy
http://www.iammattthomas.com/journal/mint-its-good-and-good-for-you
http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2005/09/mint-the-flavor-of-
the-month
http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/pimp-my-mint

-Jason

On Aug 18, 2005, at 5:06 PM, Jason Grigsby wrote:

> There appears to be some small vendors entering into the RSS or Blog
> statistics space in addition to Feedburner and SyndicateIQ. Neither
> product has been revealed yet. Jeffrey Veen and Adaptive Path are
> working on Measure Map (http://www.measuremap.com/) which Veen
> described as:
>
> "Veen has recently put together a small team of developers to create
> a Ruby on Rails application that the company plans to release to the
> outside world (the program, a tool to help bloggers measure traffic
> and other stats on their site, will be out by the end of the year,
> Veen says)"
> http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2005/08/10/37signals/index2.html
>
> And another web site developer, Shaun Inman, is building something in
> conjunction with Movable Type. I couldn't find any description of it,
> but it is reportedly a blog statistics tool:
> http://www.haveamint.com/
>
> Given both Jeffrey Veen and Shaun Inman are fairly big names in the
> web development community, people are curious to see how the products
> will compare:
> http://businesslogs.com/big_ideas/
> adaptive_path_secret_project_vs_shaun_inmans_mint.php
>
> Earlier this year, Eric was talking a lot about consolidation in the
> analytics space. In addition to consolidation, there appears to be an
> emerging trend of specialized analytics at the low end of the service
> spectrum. Analytics for RSS. Analytics for blogs.
>
> I'm curious to see where this ends up.
>
> -Jason
>
> On Aug 16, 2005, at 10:14 AM, Jeffrey Leong wrote:
>
>
>> There is also two vendors we talked to if the above is
>> something you cannot do:  SyndicateIQ and Feedburner -
>> both offer some cool stuff, but we felt was limited
>> due to the early stages of RSS, Podcast and blog
>> tracking...
>>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
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> ---------------------------------------
> Web Metrics Discussion Group
> Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
> Author, Web Analytics Demystified
> http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--

Jason Grigsby
(503) 238-2014 voice
mailto:jason@...

Dear Group

I am conducting a short survey on behalf of Hurol Inan. The topic of
the study deals with seach analytics for example, attitudes,
practices
and importance of the area as a subset of WA. It will be a short
questionnaire format sent via email.

As thanks for taking part we will offer a free copy of the report to
be published later this year.

Those willing to take part can email me at michael@...

Thanks for your attention.

Michael Kelleher

-----Original Message-----
From: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:webanalytics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bettingblind2005
Sent: 2005/09/05 05:25
To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [webanalytics] Search Analytics Survey

Dear Group

I am conducting a short survey on behalf of Hurol Inan. The topic of
the study deals with seach analytics for example, attitudes,
practices
and importance of the area as a subset of WA. It will be a short
questionnaire format sent via email.

As thanks for taking part we will offer a free copy of the report to
be published later this year.

Those willing to take part can email me at michael@...

Thanks for your attention.

Michael Kelleher




***********************************************************************************
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
The information in this email is confidential and is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not read, use or disseminate the information. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Net a Porter Ltd.

Net A Porter Ltd is a company registered in England Wales Number: 3820604 Registered Office: The Dome, Whiteleys Centre, 151 Queensway, London, W2 4YN.
***********************************************************************************

Ross, I have seen a line "Those willing to take part can email me at
michael@..." in the text. Hmmm ...

Ross Jenkins wrote:
> Send it over Michael.
>
> */bettingblind2005 <mkelleher@...>/* wrote:
>
>     Dear Group
>
>     I am conducting a short survey on behalf of Hurol Inan. The topic of
>     the study deals with seach analytics for example, attitudes,
>     practices
>     and importance of the area as a subset of WA. It will be a short
>     questionnaire format sent via email.
>
>     As thanks for taking part we will offer a free copy of the report to
>     be published later this year.
>
>     Those willing to take part can email me at michael@...
>
>     Thanks for your attention.
>
>     Michael Kelleher
>
>
>
>
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___________________________________________________________________________
Appel audio GRATUIT partout dans le monde avec le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger
Téléchargez cette version sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com

I suppose I'm one of thoese people in the "alternative community" that
believes customer insight is important.

Absolutely, what users *say* they do is certainly not what they
*actually* do. But is what they say still relevant? Perhaps this gap
between behaviour and attitudes is a finding in itself?

I would suggest that what users *say* they do is just as important,
though cannot be treated as empirical "evidence" in the same way that
Web analytics data can be.

And for everyone who believes qualitative data are useless findings
about "feelings," well, I would argue that there are better ways to do
that research! I think qualitative research is actually far more
difficult to perform than quant research because the researcher must
raise the level of abstraction in the analysis.

So I suppose the "alternative community" is about being a generalist
and perhaps less of a specialist.


--- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Meekings" <alan@l...> wrote:
> I see where you're coming from, Jim.
>
>
>
> In particular, I agree with you when you say, "What people think
does not
> reliably translate into what they will do."
>
<snip>

Hello,

New to the list.  Main reason for wanting to join is I am evaluating some web
analytics applications, and hoping to get some advice.  I'm a web developer by
trade (mainly PHP/MySQL but also have experience with Perl, Python, postgreSQL
and many others).  At my previous place of employment, I managed a WebTrends 7
installation, however I'm not sure WebTrends is the right product for our
current site.

The site I am dealing with is mainly an on-line library.  We are concerned with
where users are coming from, what pages are most popular, and if certain monthly
email newsletters help draw users to the site.  "Pretty" reports would help
explain the results to our funders, which is why I am drawn to a product like
WebTrends or Urchin.  However, we have a limited budget, which makes me think
that one of the free / open source applications may work.

Anyone have any good suggestions?  Seems like so many of the products are geared
towards e-commerce, which is not something I am concerned about for this site
(or ever will be).

Cheers,
Geoff