Interesting deconstruction. While I do agree that sexism on the web is alive
and well (and flourishes the most in communities where one might naively
expect it to be absent; the denied and unacknowledged sexism of progressive
communities aggravates me even more than the open and obvious sexism of the
"good old days"), I think that there's another perspective that can usefully
be brought to bear on the recent implosion of the weblogging discussion
group (and, yes, the subsequent group foundings). That's the perspective of
small-group politics.

It seems to be a common pattern, at least in modern American culture, that
small groups of people brought together by a common interest such as
weblogging start off with an egalitarian spirit and perhaps consensus. But
some people, for whatever reason, aren't satisfied with this. They see the
group and moving in ways that are subtly (or not so subtly) "wrong", and
take it on themselves to try to assert a leadership role. Sometimes this is
overt, as with running for the board of directors of a food co-op in order
to "make the store more professional" (I lived through this example of the
phenomenon a few years ago). Sometimes it's more overt, as in Jorn's
postings of "questions" designed to shape the discussion to conform to his
own normative notions of weblogging. (Need I say that this is ENTIRELY my
own theory? I don't know Jorn in real life, and I'm not qualified to
interpret his motives on a deep level; I'm just raising a hypothesis to
explain the behavior that I observed. I won't pretend I'm not talking about
Jorn here.)

Other people have varied reactions to these self-appointed leaders. Some
just ignore them and go about their own business. Others (such as myself and
Dave) tend to challenge them, either consciously or unconsciously, and to
bring our own differing perspectives up for the group to adopt. Sometimes
this results in a healthy discussion. Other times it results in an implosion
similar to the one we just saw with the original mailing list, where Jorn
shut it down rather than continue the interchange.

Which brings us full circle to sexism, of course. Is it coincidence that the
people who get most involved in these power struggles in small groups tend
to be male? I've watched it happen in numerous arenas of social intercourse
over several decades (the co-op movement, the anarchist movement, a variety
of Internet and BBS groups, role-playing gamers, science fiction fans...)
and overwhelmingly it's men who are the most vocal, the most obvious, the
most likely to take these things more seriously than might be warranged.

No answers, just observations. Fortunately for us all, the entry cost for
starting a new discussion group these days is zero, so there's no way for
these battles to end discourse entirely. Who knows, perhaps in the long run
that will change the dynamic that makes the battles happen in the first
place.

Mike Gunderloy
http://www.larkfarm.com/weblog.asp

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cynar [mailto:artnixie@...]

> ...I do think that sexism on the web is alive and well. I do think the
> contributions of women are undervalued as they are still in the 'real
> world'. The blogging community has made this more transparent to me,
> as if seeing through the formerly unified shield of male privilege
> into its cogs and motor."
>
> just an addendum.. I certainly don't equate techno-proficiency with
> men and warm fuzzy journals with women, and am not inciting a nature
> versus nurture thing here. This is about my perspective, which has to
> do with my personality, age, and, yes, sex, and judging from the lack
> of postings toward the end of that group by women, I'd guess I'm not
> alone.
>

Hmmm.

That's not really fair to give all that to all men. I try to listen. I am a
man. I never called anyone a drooling idiot, and an I answer questions from
newbies all the time, we even made that the motto of Manila when we rolled
it out (We're all newbies, sung to the tune of I'm a Pepper) to create room
for new users so the techies wouldn't treat them like idiots (they're not,
anyone who's smart enough to see the value in Manila, imho, is very smart).

http://weblogs.userland.com/manilaNewbies/stories/storyReader$46

It was Jorn's decision to cancel the last list. He started it, so he has
that right. Many of us, including me, didn't know that. It won't happen
here.

I'd like to offer you, cynar, and everyone else here, a hand in friendship.
I think the web is about people sharing their best with other people. I ask
newbie questions myself (only today did I learn that all my emails were
going out in HTML and this caused problems for people reading them).
Somebody will think I'm an idiot, but I really didn't know.

And btw, Pike is not a programming tool, it's a writing tool (that's
programmable).

Dave

Before this subject is entirely dessicated and stale, I'd like to
share my blog entry about the recent weblogs discussion group
implosion. Why? Because I now have a counter and know you've not read
it. And this was from a strictly outsider observer's perspective
which might be of value.

   "There are some blogs I think of as 'guy' blogs. They have a lot of
insider tech references. I seldom understand either what they're
talking about or what motivates them, and yet they seem
quintissentially 'web', as if exactly why they seem so foreign to me
is why I will ever be somewhat in the dark in this medium. There
seems to be a collection of common interests.. esoteric and yet like
catchphrases to a secret society. I had no idea until visiting quite
a few of these sites that Tesla, Turing, Fuller, The Simpsons, The
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and the Sims (oh.. and legos. and
NASA.) formed a sort of cultural nexus of collective outsider-selves,
an agreed-upon framework of type. Even the design of some of these
sites seems to either ironically or retro-in-the-know refer to
earlier programming interfaces, to now-diluted communities created by
intelligent, somewhat obesessive computer guys.

I read them because I am trying to find the key. And for a sort of
frisson of clueless anxiety.

   And yet the limitations of this cabal were shown so clearly in the
recent dissolution of the eGroups weblog discussion forum. I first
noticed about three weeks ago a sort of schism in the postings. A new
programming tool had come out, something called 'pike', and one of
the more journal-oriented bloggers asked rather ingenuously whether
such tools were preferable to hand-coding and how others found they
helped. There were some snide comments posted about his naiivete.
Then there was some gratuitous sniping about the format and usefulnes
of one of the most famous blogs.

     Then that guy posted, asking whether anyone had some
archiving/indexing tips for a project he was doing. His question was
way over my head, as were the coding arguments. I noticed the
postings were increasingly all by men. Then he posted an email
someone had sent in reply to his query. He titled it "never
overestimate the intelligence of your readers". The reader had
suggested a browser indexing function that I had never heard of. The
guys in the discussion group laughed themselves silly over the
obviousness of the answer, because the reader had missed the level of
expertise the blogger was working at. One guy brought up how a friend
of his hadput 'press control alt delete to continue' on his site and
people actually did it! wasn't that hysterical!  There were a few
postings about "drooling idiots" presuming to design and run sites,
and the presumtousness of site masters who create settings that
interfere with the bloggers' viewing preferences. All of these issues
were foreign to me, and discussed at a level that presumed a contempt
for anyone who would not feel the same way. I was getting turned off
and also feeling very stupid. Then the discussion devolved into a
personal flamewar couched in sarcastic 'apologies'.

And the disussion group was disbanded. What do I think about this? I
think that those elitist techno-savvy guys have missed the point of
their own tools. To communicate. To create community. In their
rarified programming hair-splitting, they've become so exclusive that
they no longer can even talk to one another, let alone more
humanities-focussed bloggers or their own readers. Oddly, I found the
trajectory from tech-focus to personal attacks a vindication of the
undercurrent I'd detected all along. I don't feel so bad about being
a drooling idiot, because I still remember how to listen. And I can
always learn more tech stuff, without having it replace my humanity.
I do think that sexism on the web is alive and well. I do think the
contributions of women are undervalued as they are still in the 'real
world'. The blogging community has made this more transparent to me,
as if seeing through the formerly unified shield of male privilege
into its cogs and motor."

just an addendum.. I certainly don't equate techno-proficiency with
men and warm fuzzy journals with women, and am not inciting a nature
versus nurture thing here. This is about my perspective, which has to
do with my personality, age, and, yes, sex, and judging from the lack
of postings toward the end of that group by women, I'd guess I'm not
alone.

  -- H at texting

http://www.groksoup.com/Site/Texting

register confirmation

>>Part of the Monkeyfist.com CMS is an XML-RPC query to Userland's
search engine every time new content gets published; I really wish
there such a thing for Google.

That's really interesting. I was going to suggest that. Glad you did it.

BTW, I talked with the Google CEO about it but he wasn't interested.

Dave

>>>>> "Dan" == Dan Hartung <dhartung@...> writes:

On 13 Apr 00, at 23:38, Kendall Clark wrote:
     >> I was going to share my take on these issues, but I didn't get
     >> to because Jorn kick-banned me silently from the mailing list
     >> right after I posted about my A16 site.

     Dan> Of course, none of us knew this.

Yeah, that's why the furtive censoring was so, well, hurtful.

I did email some folks about it individually.

     >> don't want to start a huge thing, but I'd like whoever ends up
     >> moderating this list to agree to abide by standard mailing list
     >> moderation policies, which in my view include giving a warning
     >> before censoring someone, explaining to the list and to the
     >> censored person why and when someone is censored, as well as
     >> giving some conditions under which the censored person can
     >> rejoin the list.

     Dan> Certainly those make sense, if the list is seen as a
     Dan> community and the role of moderator as one of public servant.

It's good to make that explicit; that's how I see most mailing lists,
especially most lists on the 'net that anyone can join, but not
*every* list is meant to foster community. I do assume, however, that
that's the kind of list most of us want *this* list to be.

     >> I also think for the record we should be clear: Jorn is the one
     >> who killed the list. I *may* have posted one or event two
     >> messages that Jorn didn't like, but two off-topic posts have
     >> never killed any list and never will.

     Dan> Don't anyone get the wrong idea, because there was an entire
     Dan> week between your situation and the Jorn-Dave rat-tat-tat
     Dan> that concluded the other list.

I still maintain that from the public evidence, we don't *know* what
was the straw that broke Jorn's back. He hasn't said publicly that I
know. Until or unless he does the only thing I'm willing to say is
that he closed the list and no one really knows why.

Best,
Kendall
--
"I have always been myself even when I was ill. Only now I seem myself.
That's the important thing. I have remembered how to seem."
		 --The Madness of King George

>>>>> "Dan" == Dan Lyke <danlyke@...> writes:

     Dan> Alert! This started out as a simple sentence, but has
     Dan> ballooned into paragraphs of political smartaleckery
     Dan> guaranteed to piss any number of people off.

     Dan> On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Kendall Clark wrote:
     >> --- In weblogs2@egroups.com, Dan Lyke <danlyke@f...> wrote: >
     >> The discussion following the announcement of a16.monkeyfist.com
     >> > covering the April 16th IMF/World Bank protests was part of
     >> what > pissed Jorn off and killed the weblogs@egroups.com
     >> mailing list.
     >>
     >> Did Jorn tell you that? He didn't tell me that.

     Dan> He didn't say in so many words, but he complained about my
     Dan> "testosterone" comment and someone else's response to that,
     Dan> and he booted you.

Yeah, that sequence of events didn't make any sense, but I'd have
traded places with you in a second! Er, actually, I wouldn't have,
because I tend to get a little nuts about censorship, but that's
probably just my thing.

     Dan> (Political aside: Had a friend fly to DC Tuesday night,
     Dan> expecting that call for bail money any time now. I was
     Dan> thinking of calling up another friend whose wife works for
     Dan> the IMF to get him a place to stay, since their politics are
     Dan> so similar, but I figured that it's best they still think
     Dan> they're fighting each other.)

Hmm, I'm gonna let this pass as my reply would be too off-topic even
for me!

I'm Official Stay By the Phone for Wiring Bail Money for a half-dozen
fellow Greens who are there now. (I'm so jealous!)

     Dan> But that's over now, and we've got *three* open lists for
     Dan> 'bloggers (weblogs2, weblogs_reborn, and weblogs-social, all
     Dan> on egroups). The 'net sometimes treats censorship as damage
     Dan> and routes around it...

Well, weblogs-social was pre-existing, and I expect the two
replacement lists to merge soon. But I was shut out for about a week,
and let me tell you: I didn't like it one bit.

     Dan> The other issue I see with event 'blogs is that it takes a
     Dan> while for readerships to grow, with current events stuff you
     Dan> build a readership, then the reason for the 'blog disappears
     Dan> all of a sudden.

Yes, and since Google is the leading engine now, and it really indexes
*consensus* and consensus on the Net is sometimes a slow-developing
thing, it's gonna be the case often that Google won't even have an
event site indexed until *well after* the log is quiescent. I
requested a Google spider visit my A16 site about 3 days before it
went live (which was about 15 minutes after I woke up one morning and
decided to do the site), and it *still* hasn't been visited. That's
not necessarily a Google flaw, but it does mean that Google isn't
the only search engine we need.

Though I've been critical of XML-RPIC in the past, I think Userland's
XML-RPC search engine could be a nice complement to the Google
approach since it let's you, from the content creator's point of view,
push rather than wait to be pulled.

Part of the Monkeyfist.com CMS is an XML-RPC query to Userland's
search engine every time new content gets published; I really wish
there such a thing for Google.

     Dan> The Elian Gonzales thing is going to be especially that way,
     Dan> the kid is great press right now, but in terms of lasting
     Dan> political meaning? The community trying to keep him in the
     Dan> states will be watching the latest "Not Without My Daughter"
     Dan> style made-for-TV movie a week after he goes back.

Sure, but many event logs, or as I call them "temporary autonomous
sites" *do* cover stuff of lasting social (or cultural or political
or...) importance. Take the Olympics. Or even the A16 protests.

In fact, I'm working on a Protest Archive now because so many of the
sites from the Seattle protests last year are *already* gone.

     Dan> (Obligatory bad taste comment: President Clinton's got reason
     Dan> to act cautiously in this matter, the last time he decided
     Dan> where to put a Cuban he got impeached.)

Uh, yikes!

Best,
Kendall Clark

>>>>> "Dave" == Dave Winer <dave@...> writes:

     >>> So, just so I'm clear, does that mean that, as a matter of
     >>> policy or
     Dave> convention, there *won't* be any silent kick-banning from
     Dave> this list? I hope so.

     Dave> I'm not sure their software has any way to disable the
     Dave> feature that allows the moderator who started the group to
     Dave> remove powers from himself. I could try actually resigining
     Dave> as a moderator, and see what happens, but the list might be
     Dave> left in an unusable state?

Sure. I don't think this is a technical but a social thing.

     Dave> Anyway, I have learned how to solve the problem when I don't
     Dave> like what's going on on a list, I resign, as I did from the
     Dave> old weblogs list a few hours before it was shut down. I did
     Dave> send a goodbye message, but it's not in the archives, it
     Dave> must have gotten trashed.

Hmm, there seems to have been a good bit of that happening. I don't
like that, at all, but it's preferable to banning folks.

     Dave> Anyway, I already have one sometimes-unruly group I have to
     Dave> keep civilized, I don't want another, so I will never under
     Dave> any circumstances do anything to anyone's messages. If I
     Dave> don't like what's happening here I will leave myself. I
     Dave> would encourage other people to do the same.

     Dave> Does that give you the clarity you're looking for?

All I want to get is an idea of the consensus of the group; i.e.,
that whoever the moderator is, she or he won't unilaterally kick
people off willy-nilly, and if they do, they'll at least tell the rest
of us about it.

I've been moderating email lists for 5 years, probably close to
500,000 messages, and I've only had to kick someone *once*, and then
only for a few hours. And I explained why I was doing it to him and to
the group, and I gave him lots of warnings.

I guess I'd feel 'secure' about participating here if I thought others
took *that* view of moderation, rather than the Quick Draw
approach. :>

Best,
Kendall Clark

>>So, just so I'm clear, does that mean that, as a matter of policy or
convention, there *won't* be any silent kick-banning from this list? I
hope so.

I'm not sure their software has any way to disable the feature that allows
the moderator who started the group to remove powers from himself. I could
try actually resigining as a moderator, and see what happens, but the list
might be left in an unusable state?

Anyway, I have learned how to solve the problem when I don't like what's
going on on a list, I resign, as I did from the old weblogs list a few hours
before it was shut down. I did send a goodbye message, but it's not in the
archives, it must have gotten trashed.

Anyway, I already have one sometimes-unruly group I have to keep civilized,
I don't want another, so I will never under any circumstances do anything to
anyone's messages. If I don't like what's happening here I will leave
myself. I would encourage other people to do the same.

Does that give you the clarity you're looking for?

Dave

>>But that's over now, and we've got *three* open lists for 'bloggers
(weblogs2, weblogs_reborn, and weblogs-social, all on egroups). The 'net
sometimes treats censorship as damage and routes around it...

You got it boobie!!

Wow. I'm starting to relax.

What a concept.

Dave

Alert! This started out as a simple sentence, but has ballooned into
paragraphs of political smartaleckery guaranteed to piss any number of
people off.

On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Kendall Clark wrote:
> --- In weblogs2@egroups.com, Dan Lyke <danlyke@f...>  wrote:
> > The discussion following the announcement of a16.monkeyfist.com
> > covering the April 16th IMF/World Bank protests was part of what
> > pissed Jorn off and killed the weblogs@egroups.com mailing list.
>
> Did Jorn tell you that? He didn't tell me that.

He didn't say in so many words, but he complained about my "testosterone"
comment and someone else's response to that, and he booted you.

(Political aside: Had a friend fly to DC Tuesday night, expecting that
call for bail money any time now. I was thinking of calling up another
friend whose wife works for the IMF to get him a place to stay, since
their politics are so similar, but I figured that it's best they still
think they're fighting each other.)

But that's over now, and we've got *three* open lists for 'bloggers
(weblogs2, weblogs_reborn, and weblogs-social, all on egroups). The 'net
sometimes treats censorship as damage and routes around it...

The other issue I see with event 'blogs is that it takes a while for
readerships to grow, with current events stuff you build a readership,
then the reason for the 'blog disappears all of a sudden.

The Elian Gonzales thing is going to be especially that way, the kid is
great press right now, but in terms of lasting political meaning? The
community trying to keep him in the states will be watching the latest
"Not Without My Daughter" style made-for-TV movie a week after he goes
back.

(Obligatory bad taste comment: President Clinton's got reason to act
cautiously in this matter, the last time he decided where to put a Cuban
he got impeached.)

Sorry, it's been one of those days.

Dan

>>>>> "Dave" == Dave Winer <dave@...> writes:

     Dave> Kendall, I told Lance Knobel at WorldLink about your site
     Dave> and he pointed to it.

     Dave> http://www.worldlink.co.uk/

Great. That site could use some exposure to the protester's point of
view, I wager.

     Dave> Sorry to hear you got banished from the old list. I was
     Dave> starting to enjoy the "New Kendall". ;->

Maybe I can maintain my new chipper attitude about life despite being
having been rudely censored. We'll see!

     Dave> Glad you could be here, and know that no one has the power
     Dave> to exclude anyone but themselves. (eGroups willing.)

So, just so I'm clear, does that mean that, as a matter of policy or
convention, there *won't* be any silent kick-banning from this list? I
hope so.

I don't oppose, in principle, having to remove someone in *extreme*
cases, but it should *never* be the furtive act of one person. There's
just too much chance of abuse in that case, as I saw first-hand
recently.

Kendall Clark
--
THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS

On 13 Apr 00, at 23:38, Kendall Clark wrote:
> --- In weblogs2@egroups.com, Dan Lyke <danlyke@f...>  wrote:
> > The discussion following the announcement of a16.monkeyfist.com
> > covering the April 16th IMF/World Bank protests was part of what
> > pissed Jorn off and killed the weblogs@egroups.com mailing list.
>
> Did Jorn tell you that? He didn't tell me that. There are some
> significant issues around 'temporary sites' that I've discovered in
> doing my A16 site, like why Google.com *sucks* at handling
> sites like these.
>
> I was going to share my take on these issues, but I didn't get to
> because Jorn kick-banned me silently from the mailing list right after
> I posted about my A16 site.

Of course, none of us knew this.

> don't want to start a huge thing, but I'd like whoever ends up
> moderating this list to agree to abide by standard mailing list
> moderation policies, which in my view include giving a warning before
> censoring someone, explaining to the list and to the censored person
> why and when someone is censored, as well as giving some conditions
> under which the censored person can rejoin the list.

Certainly those make sense, if the list is seen as a community
and the role of moderator as one of public servant.

> I also think for the record we should be clear: Jorn is the one who
> killed the list. I *may* have posted one or event two messages that
> Jorn didn't like, but two off-topic posts have never killed any list
> and never will.

Don't anyone get the wrong idea, because there was an entire
week between your situation and the Jorn-Dave rat-tat-tat that
concluded the other list.

--
Dan Hartung      | "If dancing around naked and playing the bongo drums
dhartung@... | is wrong, I don't wanna be right." -- Fred Pyen
http://www.wwa.com/~dhartung/weblog/ : Lake Effect Weblog

Kendall, I told Lance Knobel at WorldLink about your site and he pointed to
it.

http://www.worldlink.co.uk/

Sorry to hear you got banished from the old list. I was starting to enjoy
the "New Kendall". ;->

Glad you could be here, and know that no one has the power to exclude anyone
but themselves. (eGroups willing.)

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kendall Clark" <kclark@...>
To: <weblogs2@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [weblogs2] event blogs


> --- In weblogs2@egroups.com, Dan Lyke <danlyke@f...>  wrote:
> >  On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 shackbar@... wrote:
> > > Has/is anyone working on a weblog on some current event? I've
> know
> > > about McCain's Navy that tracked John McCain's Presidential run,
> and
> > > I run ElianWatch that covers the Elian Gonzalez story.
> >
> > The discussion following the announcement of a16.monkeyfist.com
> covering
> > the April 16th IMF/World Bank protests was part of what pissed Jorn
> off
> > and killed the weblogs@egroups.com mailing list.
>
> Did Jorn tell you that? He didn't tell me that. There are some
> significant issues around 'temporary sites' that I've discovered in
> doing my A16 site, like why Google.com *sucks* at handling sites like
> these.
>
> I was going to share my take on these issues, but I didn't get to
> because Jorn kick-banned me silently from the mailing list right after
> I posted about my A16 site.
>
> Of course, now I'm a bit hesitant to say *anything* on this list for
> fear of getting silently censored and banned from rejoining it. I
> don't want to start a huge thing, but I'd like whoever ends up
> moderating this list to agree to abide by standard mailing list
> moderation policies, which in my view include giving a warning before
> censoring someone, explaining to the list and to the censored person
> why and when someone is censored, as well as giving some conditions
> under which the censored person can rejoin the list.
>
> Without those or similar guidelines, the moderator is just acting
> capriciously against people or ideas or topics she or he doesn't like.
> And that hardly seems helpful to everyone else.
>
> I also think for the record we should be clear: Jorn is the one who
> killed the list. I *may* have posted one or event two messages that
> Jorn didn't like, but two off-topic posts have never killed any list
> and never will.
>
> Best,
> Kendall Clark, http://monkeyfist.com/
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 25% Off All Prints!
> Buy one today at Corbis.com
> http://click.egroups.com/1/3357/7/_/_/_/955669101/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> weblogs2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>

--- In weblogs2@egroups.com, Dan Lyke <danlyke@f...>  wrote:
>  On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 shackbar@... wrote:
> > Has/is anyone working on a weblog on some current event? I've
know
> > about McCain's Navy that tracked John McCain's Presidential run,
and
> > I run ElianWatch that covers the Elian Gonzalez story.
>
> The discussion following the announcement of a16.monkeyfist.com
covering
> the April 16th IMF/World Bank protests was part of what pissed Jorn
off
> and killed the weblogs@egroups.com mailing list.

Did Jorn tell you that? He didn't tell me that. There are some
significant issues around 'temporary sites' that I've discovered in
doing my A16 site, like why Google.com *sucks* at handling sites like
these.

I was going to share my take on these issues, but I didn't get to
because Jorn kick-banned me silently from the mailing list right after
I posted about my A16 site.

Of course, now I'm a bit hesitant to say *anything* on this list for
fear of getting silently censored and banned from rejoining it. I
don't want to start a huge thing, but I'd like whoever ends up
moderating this list to agree to abide by standard mailing list
moderation policies, which in my view include giving a warning before
censoring someone, explaining to the list and to the censored person
why and when someone is censored, as well as giving some conditions
under which the censored person can rejoin the list.

Without those or similar guidelines, the moderator is just acting
capriciously against people or ideas or topics she or he doesn't like.
And that hardly seems helpful to everyone else.

I also think for the record we should be clear: Jorn is the one who
killed the list. I *may* have posted one or event two messages that
Jorn didn't like, but two off-topic posts have never killed any list
and never will.

Best,
Kendall Clark, http://monkeyfist.com/

On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 shackbar@... wrote:
> Has/is anyone working on a weblog on some current event? I've know
> about McCain's Navy that tracked John McCain's Presidential run, and
> I run ElianWatch that covers the Elian Gonzalez story.

The discussion following the announcement of a16.monkeyfist.com covering
the April 16th IMF/World Bank protests was part of what pissed Jorn off
and killed the weblogs@egroups.com mailing list.

I've had fun going back through my archives (whence my "random entry"
feature) for the memories sparked, but I don't think that specifically
covering the political emergency of the moment will do that for me, and
I've had enough links that I thought were going to be stable go bad for me
that to build a real current events list I think I'd have to archive the
articles I'm pointing to as well.

Dan

Has/is anyone working on a weblog on some current event? I've know
about McCain's Navy that tracked John McCain's Presidential run, and
I run ElianWatch that covers the Elian Gonzalez story.

For me it started out as a way to collect lots of stories and
commentary with my own comments together for anyone who's interested
in the story. Now, I see it as a time capsule/archive for myself or
anyone interested in the future.

Sean Hackbarth
ElianWatch
http://www.angelfire.com/wi/shackbar/elianwatch.html
The American Mind
http://www.angelfire.com/wi/shackbar/index.html
shackbar@...

Dave Winer wrote:
> Oy. How did that happen? The first I heard about the cancellation
of the
> weblogs list was on monkeyfist. I didn't realize that the moderator
had the
> power to delete the list (I didn't even realize that the list was
> moderated). It just won't do to have two lists here. "Reborn" seems
to mean
> something right now, but in a year it might mean nothing. Whatever.
> I've
subscribed to the reborn list too.

It happened because a few of us got together right after the other
list stopped responding and decided that, since the cost of entry is
zero, we might as well start a new list. I agree that we don't need
two lists, especially as they're both designed to be open and
unmoderated. Of course, as list owner I have the power to change that
on the other list -- but then, Dave has the power to change that here.

For what it's worth, Weblogs_Reborn has been around a day longer and
has more subscribers. Everyone's welcome to join us there. Or not --
it's a more-or-less free country, and maybe this is just those
thousand flowers again.

Mike Gunderloy
http://www.larkfarm.com/weblog.asp

--- In weblogs2@egroups.com, Jonathan Prince <jonathan@k...>  wrote:
>  Now that weblogs is reborn - what are the rules? or at least
> community standards?
>
> I am not trying to start another fight over what 'rules' should be
in
> cyberspace - but I do believe that 'good fences make good
neighbors'.

Were there any stated rules in the previous incarnation?  If so, can
some longtime subscriber(s) to the old weblogs list post a summary?

Failing that, here's one rule: let's try to keep list-administrivia
discussion to the necessary minimum.

--- In weblogs2@egroups.com, "Dave Winer" <dave@u...>  wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sudama Adam Rice" <sudama@...>
>
> > to clear one thing up, this list won't be moderated, will it?
>
>  That's correct. No boss. No one in control. No filtering. Dave

In the interests of full disclosure, it looks like I can as moderator
ban and unsubscribe list members.  Probably can also delete messages
from the archives.  But as Dave said, I can't kill the list or change
its unmoderated status.

Not that I'm predisposed to doing any of these things.  I can't
filter what gets posted, I can only react after-the-fact.

Now that weblogs is reborn - what are the rules? or at least
community standards?

I am not trying to start another fight over what 'rules' should be in
cyberspace - but I do believe that 'good fences make good neighbors'.

jonathan

..
Jonathan Prince          : Send LOMO
jonathan@...  : photo web cards
http://KillYourTV.com    : http://KillYourTV.com/lomo
........................................................
http://Superfluous.net   : http://KillYourTV.com/foundobjects
........................................................

That's correct. No boss. No one in control. No filtering. Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sudama Adam Rice" <sudama@...>
To: <weblogs2@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: [weblogs2] I'll volunteer.


> to clear one thing up, this list won't be moderated, will it?
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1.6 Million Digital Images!
> Download one Today from Corbis.com
> http://click.egroups.com/1/3356/7/_/_/_/955652560/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> weblogs2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>

--- In weblogs2@egroups.com, "Dave Winer" <dave@u...>  wrote:
>  OK, I figured it out, Mark is a moderator now.

Wow, thanks.  I'll do my best to be fair and respectful.

So, where did we leave off?

Oy. How did that happen? The first I heard about the cancellation of the
weblogs list was on monkeyfist. I didn't realize that the moderator had the
power to delete the list (I didn't even realize that the list was
moderated). It just won't do to have two lists here. "Reborn" seems to mean
something right now, but in a year it might mean nothing. Whatever. I've
subscribed to the reborn list too. Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Wagoner" <ewagoner@...>
To: <weblogs2@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 12:03 PM
Subject: [weblogs2] Duplicate lists


>
> What about the weblogs-reborn list created last night?
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Weblogs_reborn
>
> It was posted to weblogs-social and is slowly making the rounds.
>
> ---
> Eric Wagoner                ewagoner@...
> Partner Software           http://www.partnersoft.com
> Kestrel's Nest Weblog   http://www.athens.net/~ewagoner
> ---
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1.6 Million Digital Images!
> Download one Today from Corbis.com
> http://click.egroups.com/1/3356/7/_/_/_/955652768/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> weblogs2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>

What about the weblogs-reborn list created last night?
http://www.egroups.com/group/Weblogs_reborn

It was posted to weblogs-social and is slowly making the rounds.

---
Eric Wagoner                ewagoner@...
Partner Software           http://www.partnersoft.com
Kestrel's Nest Weblog   http://www.athens.net/~ewagoner
---

nevermind

>I was able to set it up so that he can't delete the group or modify the
>unmoderatedness of the list, which is what I wanted to accomplish.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

to clear one thing up, this list won't be moderated, will it?
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

OK, I figured it out, Mark is a moderator now.

http://www.egroups.com/help/members.html#7

I was able to set it up so that he can't delete the group or modify the
unmoderatedness of the list, which is what I wanted to accomplish.

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Gardner" <mjg@...>
To: <weblogs2@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 11:52 AM
Subject: [weblogs2] I'll volunteer.


> dave@userland wrote in a Weblogs.Com bulletin:
> >I am the sole moderator for now, but if someone else volunteers to
> >moderate I will resign as the moderator.
>
> I'll moderate, if you like.
>
> Thanks for making the new list.
>
>  ...MJG
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free E-Cards, Screensavers, and Digital Pictures!
> Corbis.com:
> http://click.egroups.com/1/3358/7/_/_/_/955651968/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> weblogs2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>

dave@userland wrote in a Weblogs.Com bulletin:
>I am the sole moderator for now, but if someone else volunteers to
>moderate I will resign as the moderator.

I'll moderate, if you like.

Thanks for making the new list.

  ...MJG