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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Appologies to any who reciev more than one copy of this update, but so many of
you are on more than one list that I can't keep track of who's where.

This message is to announce that The Carrajina Project has a new home -- one
that works this time.  The new address http://carrajina.conlang.org is up and
running, but my files are not completely unpacked.  At this point the pages
relating to culture and history are mostly up and running.  (If you notice any
broken links let me know!)  But the language stuff, especially the dictionary,
may take several weeks to get up and running since I have a good bit of code
editing to do for those pages and 4-500 new words to enter on both sides of the
dictionary before I re-launch it.

Well, now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

Adam

Nivechigadu ul omu fi nu nul cunsiju djuls ímfius avevad amvuinadu, fi ni nal
via djuls pecadorus avevad pedizadu, fi ni nul sedigu djuls zagagadus avevad
xedjidigadu.

Saumu 1:1

Al-gharb al-kabiir, I believe.  It's been awhile, but I can't
remember if you need both al's, or just the second one...

On Sep 27, 2009, at 11â—Š58 PM, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:

> Can anyone tell me what the Arabic for
> "The great Western lands" and/or "The Great West"
> would be? An ArabTeX transliteration, if
> you know it, would also be greatly appreciated.
> <http://129.69.218.213/arabtex/doc/arabdoc.pdf>
> p. 18/20 ff.
>
> I need this for my alternative history Lucus
> where South America, which there obviously
> must have another name, was discovered by
> Arabs from Spain in the 8th or 9th century.

-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."

-Jim Morrison

http://dedalvs.com/

LCS Member Since 2007
http://conlang.org/

Can anyone tell me what the Arabic for
"The great Western lands" and/or "The Great West"
would be?  An ArabTeX transliteration, if
you know it, would also be greatly appreciated.
<http://129.69.218.213/arabtex/doc/arabdoc.pdf>
p. 18/20 ff.

I need this for my alternative history Lucus
where South America, which there obviously
must have another name, was discovered by
Arabs from Spain in the 8th or 9th century.

TIA,

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   "C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
   à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
   ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
   c'est qu'elles meurent."           (Victor Hugo)

Appologies in advance to those who have recieved or will recieve multiple copies
of this e-mail.  Quite a number of you are on multiple con-whatsit lists, or on
both ChristSF and Firebird, but this is the best I could do to be sure I caught
everyone.  I am just about through moving my website from Yahoo!'s Geocities to
its new home at Heliohost.org.  My new site addy will be
http://www.carrajina.heliohost.org/index.html and I should have it up and
running properly later today. (Sorry, Sai.  I can't afford to join the LLC at
this time and have no guarantee that I'd have the finances to renew the
membership annually even if I could scrape it together now.)

In getting ready for this move, I have compiled a list of over 200 words that I
had documented on scattered scraps of paper and don't believe I have entered
into the Carrajina (Yes, I have regularized the spelling to conform with the
rest of the language, though my email still has the "e" in it.) dictionary.  I
suspect there might be another 100 or so in the scraps of paper I still have to
go through, so the dictionary is undergoing a major augment.

Well, that's what's up in Carraxa at the moment.

Adam

PS I should have a translation of a cool Tunisan folktale ready to go early next
week.


Nivechigadu ul omu fi nu nul cunsiju djuls ímfius avevad amvuinadu, fi ni nal
via djuls pecadorus avevad pedizadu, fi ni nul sedigu djuls zagagadus avevad
xedjidigadu.

Saumu 1:1

---In westasianconlangs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Walker <carrajena@...> wrote:

>Perhaps the traditional Passover questions would make a good
>translation exercise?

Where the youngest asks the oldest, "Hey, how come we do this?"

--- In westasianconlangs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Walker <carrajena@...> wrote:
>
>
> I just wanted to wish a joyful Pesach

Thanks!

>to those who are about to celebrate.

I'm probably going to skip most of it due to (minor) illness.

>I doubt I'll be on-line tomorrow, so I'm just a bit
>early.
>Perhaps the traditional Passover questions would make a good
>translation exercise?

Who knows one?

>
> Adam

I just wanted to wish a joyful Pesach to those who are about to celebrate.  I
doubt I'll be on-line tomorrow, so I'm just a bit early.  Perhaps the
traditional Passover questions would make a good translation exercise?

Adam

Nivechigadu ul omu fi nu nul cunsiju djuls ímfius avevad amvuinadu, fi ni nal
via djuls pecadorus avevad pedizadu, fi ni nul sedigu djuls zagagadus avevad
xedjidigadu.

Saumu 1:1

--- In westasianconlangs@yahoogroups.com, "eamoniski" <eamoniski@...>
wrote:
>
> Actually, this is a big help! If you've already had the ideas then
> I know I'm not pulling oddball things out of the aether!
>
> Cheers and thanks!
> Eamon

Well, the fact that _I_ thought of it doesn't prove it isn't oddball
nor "pulled out of the aether".
But in fact I think your ideas are neither oddball nor insufficiently-
based.

Actually, this is a big help! If you've already had the ideas then I know I'm
not pulling oddball
things out of the aether!

Cheers and thanks!
Eamon

--- In westasianconlangs@yahoogroups.com, "eldin_raigmore" <eldin_raigmore@...>
wrote:
>
> Looks like you already know what I know, and already have had the ideas
> I have.  I can't help you much (sorry) but I can encourage you. Good
> luck!
>

Looks like you already know what I know, and already have had the ideas
I have.  I can't help you much (sorry) but I can encourage you. Good
luck!

Hi all,

I'm revisiting an Armenian based conlang I started back in 2005 - in fact, I'm
giving it a
complete overhaul, though much of the original inspiration is still there.  For
some
background, this conlang (which strives for natural-ness but not necessarily
plausibility)
operates on the model of an Armenian language which had much of its vocabulary
replaced with Persian and Semitic, and has a grammar that shaped by much contact
with
area languages: Greek, Turkish, Kurdish and other Persian languages...  Romani,
colloquial
Neo-Aramaic dialects, Mandaic, Cappadocian Greek and the Balkan Language Union
have
provided much of the inspiration for contact-induced structural borrowing and
restructuring.

Inspired by Cappadocian Greek and the Balkan Language Union, I was planning on
having
a noun system with three cases: direct, oblique and vocative.  The vocative I
cobbled
together based on similarities and coincidences across the BLU and Kurdish
influence on
certain dialects of Modern Neo-Aramaic; I reasoned that my "Armenian" could
likewise
borrow a vocative based on Kurdish.  The direct is, of course, the nominative.

The oblique, however, is giving me some trouble (mostly because I'm stubborn). 
Like
Cappadocian Greek, I want an agglutinative case ending.  Whereas the dative and
genitive
falls together, the Armenian accusative is mostly the nominative, I reasoned
that the
oblique would be derived from the genitive.

Cappadocian derives its agglutinative genitive from the Greek group 2 neuter
genitive
ending -ju.  Cappadocian simply tags this to the noun, regardless of provenance.
One
problem I have with this is that I don't like the vision of all of those new
-Cj- sounds that
will result from adding -ju to nouns that end in consonants.  Also, borrowing
the Greek -
ju seems too hodgepodge, sticking to all the Armenian, Semitic and Persian nouns
that will
make up the vocabulary of the language.

I thought of using the Armenian genitive, but from which declension?  -i and -u
are the
most common; and Kurdish has a feminine oblique in -i.  Does it make much sense
to
generalize the -i and tag it on to all nouns?  What of nouns that end in vowels?
I think I
don't care for the aesthetics but I can probably live with it if enough voices
support it. ^_^

I'm tempted to even scrap the oblique entirely, or make some kind of optional
case to tag
objects when they don't appear in their usual locations within the sentence...
not sure...

Any ideas???

Also like Cappadocian Greek (and Armenian) I want an agglutinative plural... I'm
thinking
(somewhat inspired by Mandaic's borrowing of Persian plural endings) of having
Armenian
-(n)er for inanimate nouns and Persian -an for animate nouns.  How does this
sound?

Cheers,
Eamon

On 03 Jun 2008, at 08:41 , Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> Carl Edlund Anderson skrev:
>> On 02 Jun 2008, at 09:23 , Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>>> If you read German the posthumous Avestan (historical)
>>> phonology by Karl Hoffmann is worth its salt.
>> Is this it?: Karl Hoffmann and Bernhard Forssman, _Avestische Laut-
>> und Flexionslehre_ (University of Innsbruck, 1996).
>
> yep, that's it.
> There is also a collection called "Compendium linguarum
> iranicarum" which contains some useful stuff but may be
> too costy to be worth it. You need to read ENG/GER/FRA!


For material as technical as grammar, I can usually manage
French. :)  But, yes, I think I need to start with less costly
sources.  On the other hand, I haven't yet tracked down any new or
used copies of the Hoffman book for sale. :P  What little I've been
able to discover about it, though, makes it look like an excellent
resource, with numerous comparative examples with Vedic, etc.

Cheers,
Carl

--
Carl Edlund Anderson
http://www.carlaz.com/

Carl Edlund Anderson skrev:
> On 02 Jun 2008, at 09:23 , Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>> If you read German the posthumous Avestan (historical)
>> phonology by Karl Hoffmann is worth its salt.
> Is this it?: Karl Hoffmann and Bernhard Forssman, _Avestische Laut-
> und Flexionslehre_ (University of Innsbruck, 1996).


yep, that's it.
There is also a collection called "Compendium linguarum
iranicarum" which contains some useful stuff but may be
too costy to be worth it. You need to read ENG/GER/FRA!

Titel  	 Compendium linguarum Iranicarum / herausgegeben von
Rüdiger Schmitt
Ort/förlag/år  Wiesbaden : Reichert, 1989
Omfång  xiv, 529 s. : tab.
Medarbetare  Schmitt, Rüdiger
ISBN  3882264136


> My spoken German is virtually dead these days, but I can read
> academic German well enough, especially for something as technical as
> historical grammar.
>
>
>> I don't understand sometimes how fortunate I am to have
>> free access to an academic library...
>
> I used to have free access to an academic library, but I knew I would
> miss it when I moved away.  And I do! :(
>
> Cheers,
> Carl
>

On 02 Jun 2008, at 09:23 , Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> If you read German the posthumous Avestan (historical)
> phonology by Karl Hoffmann is worth its salt.
Is this it?: Karl Hoffmann and Bernhard Forssman, _Avestische Laut-
und Flexionslehre_ (University of Innsbruck, 1996).

My spoken German is virtually dead these days, but I can read
academic German well enough, especially for something as technical as
historical grammar.


> I don't understand sometimes how fortunate I am to have
> free access to an academic library...

I used to have free access to an academic library, but I knew I would
miss it when I moved away.  And I do! :(

Cheers,
Carl

--
Carl Edlund Anderson
http://www.carlaz.com/

If you read German the posthumous Avestan (historical)
phonology by Karl Hoffmann is worth its salt.

I don't understand sometimes how fortunate I am to have
free access to an academic library...

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   "C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
   à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
   ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
   c'est qu'elles meurent."           (Victor Hugo)

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 10:38 AM, David J. Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:
> The two changes would be the gemination change, and the
> whole sale *k_w > k.  This would produce some interesting
> irregularities:
>
> k_wati > kati
> kati > kati
>
> But
>
> ik_wti > ikti
> ikti > itti
>
> And perhaps...
>
> mak_w > mak
> mak > mak
>
> But with a /-ta/ suffix...
>
> mak_wta > makta
> makta > matta
>
> So you could have two different words with
> the same nominative form, let's say (/mak/),
> but when the plural /-ta/ suffix is added,
> the first stem stays /mak/ while the second
> becomes /mat/.  That'd be cool!

Oooh... shiny!

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

Another possibility is to change the *non* labiovelars.

So, for example, one common sound change with CC where
the pair are non-identical stops is to assimilate the first to the
second, a la Italian:

noctus > notte
lactus > latte

Thus:

ikti > itti

But, this could happen before you delabialize the labiovelars,
giving you:

ik_wti > ik_wti > ikti
ikti > itti > itti

The two changes would be the gemination change, and the
whole sale *k_w > k.  This would produce some interesting
irregularities:

k_wati > kati
kati > kati

But

ik_wti > ikti
ikti > itti

And perhaps...

mak_w > mak
mak > mak

But with a /-ta/ suffix...

mak_wta > makta
makta > matta

So you could have two different words with
the same nominative form, let's say (/mak/),
but when the plural /-ta/ suffix is added,
the first stem stays /mak/ while the second
becomes /mat/.  That'd be cool!

-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."

-Jim Morrison

http://dedalvs.free.fr/

On Jun 2, 2008, at 1°29 AM, Philip Newton wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 4:25 AM, Eamon Graham <robertg@...>
> wrote:
> > Essentially, I'm soliciting ideas for dealing with labial-velar
> > consonant clusters. My language's phonology is pretty basic, and
> > doesn't have complex consonant clusters, but its earlier (con)
> historical
> > stage did. For example, if I have a word such as /ik_wti/ but would
> > like to maintain its distinction with the a word such as /ikti/,
> what
> > might I do? I thought of turning the labial into a vowel: /ikuti/.
> > Another idea I had was perhaps something like /ikw@ti/.
>
> Also consider shifting the place of articulation, e.g. to fully
> labial: /ipti/. (I think Greek did /k_w/ --> /t/, for example.)
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>
>
>

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 4:25 AM, Eamon Graham <robertg@...> wrote:
> Essentially, I'm soliciting ideas for dealing with labial-velar
> consonant clusters.  My language's phonology is pretty basic, and
> doesn't have complex consonant clusters, but its earlier (con)historical
> stage did.  For example, if I have a word such as /ik_wti/ but would
> like to maintain its distinction with the a word such as /ikti/, what
> might I do? I thought of turning the labial into a vowel: /ikuti/.
> Another idea I had was perhaps something like /ikw@ti/.

Also consider shifting the place of articulation, e.g. to fully
labial: /ipti/. (I think Greek did /k_w/ --> /t/, for example.)

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

On 31 May 2008, at 10:58 , eldin_raigmore wrote:
>> However, I find myself mildly
>> handicapped by good resources discussing the development of Sanskrit
>> and Avestan from PIE.
>
> You mean the _lack_ of such resources, right?

_Lack_, yes!  :)  Gosh I've called, the dual a case and left out
words ... I've not been doing well this past week!

> You should look at the "Resources" threads on the ZBB, the CBB, Sano's
> Scriptorium, and Vreleksa.
> I don't know if they have such resources listed there but it seems
> awfully likely, especially the ZBB's and CBB's.
> spinnoff.com/zbb and look for "resources" in the "L&L Museum"
> conlanger.com/cbb and look for "resources"

Thanks -- I'll check those links out.


>> Can anyone recommend any books or, failing
>> that, web sites?
>
> I hope so.  But at the moment, at least, I'm not one of the "anyone".


Doing the obvious, like a quick Amazon search, turned up a few
interesting looking but rather pricey academic publications -- and I
think I need to start with something more basic, since Indo-Iranian
is well out my (actually relatively shaky) comfort zone of IE.
Doesn't seem as "popular" in the English-speaking world, with
consequently fewer resources than Germanic, Romance, Celtic, Greek, etc.

But, as I hope with Egyptian, my shear ignorance will (in a way)
liberate me to be a bit more creative with the conlanging aspects.
I'm most familiar with Germanic languages, and have a terrible time
doing Germanic conlang work because even I know too many of the rules
to be comfortable casually breaking them. ;)  In Egyptian or Indo-
Iranian I simply don't know enough not to simply make up lots of stuff.

Cheers,
Carl

--
Carl Edlund Anderson
http://www.carlaz.com/

---In westasianconlangs@yahoogroups.com, Carl Edlund Anderson
<cea@...> wrote:
>[snip]
>By the way, I've also got a brace of Indo-European-inspired conlangs,

"brace"! Dual number!

>and want to make a more-or-less Indo-Iranian one (perhaps more on the
>Iranian than Indo side) -- which is something that technically falls
>under the purview of this list. :)

I'm sure the "Iranian" part counts as "Western Asian".  And anything
East of India probably counts as East Asian.  India itself probably
would count as South Central (stuff north of India but not much east
nor west of it counts as Central, IIUC); but mostly people just call
it "India" on the grounds that "it's a sub-continent".

>However, I find myself mildly
>handicapped by good resources discussing the development of Sanskrit
>and Avestan from PIE.

You mean the _lack_ of such resources, right?

You should look at the "Resources" threads on the ZBB, the CBB, Sano's
Scriptorium, and Vreleksa.
I don't know if they have such resources listed there but it seems
awfully likely, especially the ZBB's and CBB's.
spinnoff.com/zbb and look for "resources" in the "L&L Museum"
conlanger.com/cbb and look for "resources"

>Can anyone recommend any books or, failing
>that, web sites?

I hope so.  But at the moment, at least, I'm not one of the "anyone".

>Cheers,
>Carl
>--
>Carl Edlund Anderson
>http://www.carlaz.com/

--- In westasianconlangs@yahoogroups.com, Benct Philip Jonsson
<melroch@...> wrote:
> On 2008-05-27 Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
> > dSr.t "red land" = desert
> Hm.  looks like _desert_ be ultimately derived
> from Egyptian, which of course it is not.
> Would be fun to create a con-setting where it is,
> though!
> /BP 8^)>
> --
> Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se

WHS!
But suppose it were "dessert" rather than "desert" that was derived
from  /dSr.t/ ?
Says something about the diet, doesn't it?

On 29 May 2008, at 02:13 , Isaac Penzev wrote:
> Well, there are some other patterns, but CaCi:C is the most
> popular, IMHO.
> The next by popularity would be CaCa:C.

Well, sounds good to me.  Is there any evident logic to why one
variant or another gets used?  Otherwise I guess it's just whether I
like dashiru or dasharu better (which is good enough for me if it
comes to that. :)


> But the work *only* with
> descriptive/qualitative adjectives. Relative adjectives (usu.
> corresponding
> to nouns in attributive position in English) seem to be universally
> formed
> by means of -yy- suffix in the whole Afro-Asiatic family. They are
> called
> "nisbah" adjectives. E.g. {3arabu} "an Arab" > {3arabiyyu} "Arabic".

Yes, I've encountered mention of these in my reading, and I gather
there were similar things in Egyptian.  I probably need to get to
grips with them.


On 29 May 2008, at 02:13 , Isaac Penzev wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:06 PM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
>> Well, mostly because I've never really gotten along with the dual
>> case.
>
> Dual *number*, FYI.

<I slap myself upside the head and go make more coffee!>


> Don't worry about it. Modern Hebrew has almost lost it,
> keeping it alive only in natural pairs, e.g. {3ayin} "an eye" >
> {3einayim}
> "a pair of eyes".

Well, since my morphology is still quite simple, I won't rule it
out.  I don't know how much I'll use it, but I'll keep the dual in mind.


> On Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:06 PM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
>> Actually I now find myself uncertain about how to form feminine
>> nouns.  I have been slapping a feminine marker -t on the root and
>> then tacking case ending markers after that: f.nom.sg. dashratu,
>> f.nom.pl. dashratuwa .... but it seems to me that Real Egyptian
>> actually formed feminine plurals by first adding the -w- marker for
>> the plural and _then_ the -t feminine marker, which would give me a
>> f.nom.pl. like .. dashrawatu, instead.  Not sure how to go here.
>> Maybe I need to check some comparative ideas from Arabic or (if I can
>> find any examples) other Afro-asiatic languages.

On 29 May 2008, at 02:13 , Isaac Penzev wrote:
> Yep, {daSrawatu} would be closer to the original AEgyptian form.

On 29 May 2008, at 08:01 , Pavel A. da Mek wrote:
> "dashrawatu" is more real, but I suppose that after -VC- the
> feminine marker
> need not be vocalised, thus maybe sg. "dashratu", du. "dashratju", pl.
> "dashrawtu" (m. sg. "dashru", du. "dashrawju", pl. "dashrawu").
> Also the weak consonat "w" could disappear with lenghtening in
> daughter
> languages, giving sg. "dashratu", pl. "dashra:tu"  (m. sg.
> "dashru", pl.
> "dashru:"). This would be similar to what we see for example in
> Babylonian:
> sg. m. Sarrum dannum "mighty king", f. Sarratum dannatum "mighty
> queen",
> pl. m. Sarru:m dannu:tum "mighty kings", f. Sarra:tum danna:tum
> "mighty
> queens".

Mmm, yes, I like it, though I need to think about f.pl. dashrawatu
vs. dashrawtu.  I think I, at least, have an easier time saying the
former, though I suppose the /aw/ clusters might tend to become
diphthongs if so allowed.

Cheers,
Carl

--
Carl Edlund Anderson
http://www.carlaz.com/

> Actually I now find myself uncertain about how to form feminine
> nouns.  I have been slapping a feminine marker -t on the root and
> then tacking case ending markers after that: f.nom.sg. dashratu,
> f.nom.pl. dashratuwa .... but it seems to me that Real Egyptian
> actually formed feminine plurals by first adding the -w- marker for
> the plural and _then_ the -t feminine marker, which would give me a
> f.nom.pl. like .. dashrawatu, instead.  Not sure how to go here.
> Maybe I need to check some comparative ideas from Arabic or (if I can
> find any examples) other Afro-asiatic languages.

"dashrawatu" is more real, but I suppose that after -VC- the feminine marker
need not be vocalised, thus maybe sg. "dashratu", du. "dashratju", pl.
"dashrawtu" (m. sg. "dashru", du. "dashrawju", pl. "dashrawu").
Also the weak consonat "w" could disappear with lenghtening in daughter
languages, giving sg. "dashratu", pl. "dashra:tu"  (m. sg. "dashru", pl.
"dashru:"). This would be similar to what we see for example in Babylonian:
sg. m. Sarrum dannum "mighty king", f. Sarratum dannatum "mighty queen",
pl. m. Sarru:m dannu:tum "mighty kings", f. Sarra:tum danna:tum "mighty
queens".

       P.A.

On Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:06 PM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:


> Is the CaCi:C adjective pattern pretty regular for triconsonantal
> roots?

Well, there are some other patterns, but CaCi:C is the most popular, IMHO.
The next by popularity would be CaCa:C. But the work *only* with
descriptive/qualitative adjectives. Relative adjectives (usu. corresponding
to nouns in attributive position in English) seem to be universally formed
by means of -yy- suffix in the whole Afro-Asiatic family. They are called
"nisbah" adjectives. E.g. {3arabu} "an Arab" > {3arabiyyu} "Arabic".

> but it seems to me that Real Egyptian
> actually formed feminine plurals by first adding the -w- marker for
> the plural and _then_ the -t feminine marker, which would give me a
> f.nom.pl. like .. dashrawatu, instead.  Not sure how to go here.

Yep, {daSrawatu} would be closer to the original AEgyptian form.

> Well, mostly because I've never really gotten along with the dual
> case.

Dual *number*, FYI. Don't worry about it. Modern Hebrew has almost lost it,
keeping it alive only in natural pairs, e.g. {3ayin} "an eye" > {3einayim}
"a pair of eyes".

Wishing success,
-- Yitzik

On 28 May 2008, at 04:49 , Isaac Penzev wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 27, 2008 11:39 PM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
>> I've essentially added rather arbitrary vowels
>
> Why not trying some Arabic vocalisation? At least, CaCi:C pattern for
> adjectives seems so appealing...

Well, I'm all for it.  I had been thinking I might fill in some of my
conlang's "missing DNA" with ideas from Arabic.  The problem is I
don't know much about it!

Is the CaCi:C adjective pattern pretty regular for triconsonantal
roots?  Using dSr as an example, I guess that would then give me
"dashiru", /da.'Si:.4u/.  (For lack of any better plan, I've been
either putting stress where there are long vowels, or putting long
vowels where I imagine stress.)

Actually I now find myself uncertain about how to form feminine
nouns.  I have been slapping a feminine marker -t on the root and
then tacking case ending markers after that: f.nom.sg. dashratu,
f.nom.pl. dashratuwa .... but it seems to me that Real Egyptian
actually formed feminine plurals by first adding the -w- marker for
the plural and _then_ the -t feminine marker, which would give me a
f.nom.pl. like .. dashrawatu, instead.  Not sure how to go here.
Maybe I need to check some comparative ideas from Arabic or (if I can
find any examples) other Afro-asiatic languages.


>> So far I have a very simple declensional structure for nouns and
>> adjectives, with masculine
>> and feminine genders, singular and plural numbers, and 3 cases:
>> nominative, oblique, and
>> genitive.
>
> Why not retain dual?


Well, mostly because I've never really gotten along with the dual
case. :)  It always seemed to make things unnecessarily complicated,
IMO. ;)  Still, I've got such a blindingly simple morphology at the
moment that it can't much trouble to have a dual ....

If I remember aright, Egyptian formed some sort of dual by tacking a /
j/ glide onto the end of the plural (at least for masculine nouns),
perhaps with a vowel of some kind preceding it.  My standard
masculine nominative plural ending is -uwa (the nom.sg. -u + -w- with
an epenthetic -a to ease pronunciation); I could just slap /j/ on the
end to make the m.nom dual ending -uwaj.  As for the feminine dual, I
gather there's uncertainly about whether Egyptian formed the feminine
dual by adding a -j to the singular or (like the masculine) the
plural ... but I guess I need to decide whether my feminine plurals
end in -t or in a case-marking vowel before I can sort that out in my
conlang....

Not sure what happens in Arabic for the dual, nor in other Afro-
asiatic languages.  My case endings are, I think, more Afro-asiatic
than Egyptian (nom. -u, obl. -a, gen. -i), so maybe I need to look
for some more examples of dual morphology out there ....

Cheers,
Carl

--
Carl Edlund Anderson
http://www.carlaz.com/

On 28 May 2008, at 08:31 , Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> On 2008-05-27 Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
>> dSr.t "red land" = desert
>
> Hm.  looks like _desert_ be ultimately derived
> from Egyptian, which of course it is not.
> Would be fun to create a con-setting where it is,
> though!


Yeah, I know the similarity there is only coincidental.  But I wanted
my "non-Egyptians" to have some "desert nomad" vibe about them as
well, so the "red land/desert" connection was convenient. :)

I'm very inexpert on Real World Egyptian (and Coptic), though I
suspect the ".t" in transcribed dSr.t wouldn't have been pronounced
by the time the Romans showed up in Egypt ... maybe lost before
Ptolemy's time, too.  I've no idea, really!  I think the vowel for
the Coptic descendant of dSr "red" had some kind of /o/.  Not sure
what the proper AE antecedent would have been, I guessed at /a/ for
my conlang, which might be vaguely accurate, though again I'm not
sure when the change might have happened.

Cheers,
Carl

--
Carl Edlund Anderson
http://www.carlaz.com/

On 2008-05-27 Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
> dSr.t "red land" = desert

Hm.  looks like _desert_ be ultimately derived
from Egyptian, which of course it is not.
Would be fun to create a con-setting where it is,
though!

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   "C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
   à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
   ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
   c'est qu'elles meurent."           (Victor Hugo)

On Tuesday, May 27, 2008 11:39 PM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:

> Anyone out there? :)

Briefly saying, yep.

> I've just started a very rudimentary conlang primarily inspired by
> (Ancient) Egyptian,
[skip]

Sounds quite promising. I had somewhat similar ideas not long ago, but, as
usually, lacked time...

> For the moment, at least, I'm calling my new conlang "Dashratic" in honour
> of it being "not
> Egyptian" -- historical Egyptian kmt being the "black land", contrasting
> with dSr.t "red
> land" = desert.

Nice name. No claims, on my side ;)

> I've essentially added rather arbitrary vowels

Why not trying some Arabic vocalisation? At least, CaCi:C pattern for
adjectives seems so appealing...

> So far I have a very simple declensional structure for nouns and
> adjectives, with masculine
> and feminine genders, singular and plural numbers, and 3 cases:
> nominative, oblique, and
> genitive.

Why not retain dual?

> Cheers,
> Carl

Wishing success,
friendly yours,
-- Yitzik

On 27 May 2008, at 19:27 , eldin_raigmore wrote:

> ---In westasianconlangs@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Edlund Anderson"
>> <cea@...> wrote:
>> (Is this list still alive?)
> Yes.
>> Anyone out there? :)
> Yes.
>>


Good to hear on both counts. :)

By the way, I've also got a brace of Indo-European-inspired conlangs,
and want to make a more-or-less Indo-Iranian one (perhaps more on the
Iranian than Indo side) -- which is something that technically falls
under the purview of this list. :)  However, I find myself mildly
handicapped by good resources discussing the development of Sanskrit
and Avestan from PIE.  Can anyone recommend any books or, failing
that, web sites?

Cheers,
Carl

--
Carl Edlund Anderson
http://www.carlaz.com/