I'm having my first wood stove installed in a new and very well sealed and
insulated house. My problem is that I have only one 10 foot section of solid
wall in my living room with an almost floor length window on both sides. I need
to share this space between the stove, and books and entertainment equipment and
need to reduce the stove clearances as much as possible. The stove is small, a
Jotul F 602 CB, their smallest model but the company very carefully avoids
providing any information I could use to calculate and reduce their standardized
clearances.

For example, they show that by adding a shield of noncombustible material with a
1" air gap I can reduce the side clearance from 21" to 13". What I'd like to
know is if I can reduce it further by doubling the heat shield with another 1"
air gap and by how much. One thing I'm considering is making a 3 sided shield
from 1/8" steel with a second layer of 1/4" cement board between the stove and
the steel. The shield would be attached an inch from the conventional wall
behind the stove and would wrap around both sides. Another possibility would be
to build a narrow but tall triple wall wood box next to the stove so I could
start cabinets and shelves directly on the other side.

Thanks!

Brian in VT

13"  is a very small clearance.  Nothing you can do would legally reduce it
further. As you are finding out wood stoves take up quite a bit of space.
It would most likely be easiest to find a new creative way to store the
books somewhere else.  A 3 foot tall book shelf in front of the window
during the winter would be one possibility.   Good luck.



gggGary

from Wisconsin

I'm having my first wood stove installed in a new and very well sealed and
insulated house. My problem is that I have only one 10 foot section of solid
wall in my living room with an almost floor length window on both sides. I
need to share this space between the stove, and books and entertainment
equipment and need to reduce the stove clearances as much as possible. The
stove is small, a Jotul F 602 CB, their smallest model but the company very
carefully avoids providing any information I could use to calculate and
reduce their standardized clearances.

For example, they show that by adding a shield of noncombustible material
with a 1" air gap I can reduce the side clearance from 21" to 13". What I'd
like to know is if I can reduce it further by doubling the heat shield with
another 1" air gap and by how much. One thing I'm considering is making a 3
sided shield from 1/8" steel with a second layer of 1/4" cement board
between the stove and the steel. The shield would be attached an inch from
the conventional wall behind the stove and would wrap around both sides.
Another possibility would be to build a narrow but tall triple wall wood box
next to the stove so I could start cabinets and shelves directly on the
other side.

Thanks!

Brian in VT





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

artcheologist wrote: need to reduce the stove clearances as much as possible.
The stove is small, a Jotul F 602 CB, their smallest model but the company very
carefully avoids providing any information I could use to
calculate and reduce their standardized clearances.


We just installed this very stove 3 days ago.
Code man was out on Tuesday, my stomach was in knots. Was very much regretting
not spending the $750 to have the pipe professionally installed. Between DH,
brother, and my nephew who actually climbed up on my 12 12 pitched roof the job
got done.
Code letter came in the mail today - oh me of little faith.

Now back to your question - we bought a floor model so the dealer printed out
the manual from Jotul's site. With the rear heat shield the clearance was
reduced to 9 inches from the back two corners of the stove. Personally IMHO the
heat shield really detracts from the appearance but the shove needed to fit in
the corner. The front door and entrances to living room, kitchen, a bedroom, and
stairs all come off this 12x11 room.

I'll try and post a few pics of the hearth to show off my brother's tile setting
skills. It will be under hallgang.

~~ pelenaka ~~

Follow the instructions in the manual.  Safety needs to be the number 1 concern.
Keep the clearences at the range listed in the manual because if you have a
fire, the your insurance company will take measurements to show who was at
fault.  I am not saying that you will have a fire, but you need to have enough
space to prevent a fire.  You will also have to circulate enough air to heat
your room.  Cutting down the air circulation will reduce heat distribution, not
as severe as having a fireplace insert, but enough for you to potentially
question your installation.  You will also need to have some wood around your
stove, and a set of tools.  This will ensure that you are not putting cold wood
into the fire at every loading.  Lastly, if you have floor to celiing windows,
they should have curtains or somthing to block heat from being sucked out of
your room at night.  This will be a problem.


I don't see any way to take it down to less than 4 feet (external size). If I
was to take this down to 4 feet, I would build something like an alcove. It
would not be as restrictive as a fireplace insert, but would be an independent
structure from the wall. To build this, you build a floor pad, ciramic/brick,
then build a stone or brick alcove around the sides and back of the stove.
Leaving atleast 1-2 inches behind the brick at the wall.  So, as the heat
radiates out from the Jotul, the radiated heat will hit the alcove stone/brick
wall, and have to pass through it.  It would act like a large heat sink and once
warmed, it would radiate as one mass from all sides. It would take the room
longer to heat up, but once it is heated, it will stay warmer longer.

This is an example of an alcove.  From the picture, the alcove is built into the
wall like a fireplace, but the stove clearences are correct.   It is beautiful,
see
photo(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/woodheat/photos/album/250922520/pic/11622488\
83/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc)  You could make
something like it but much smaller. Say one brick thick with the air gap outside
of the three sides.

This second one is not as pretty as the first, but it probably gets the job
done.  Its clearances are very low on the sides, but there is probably nothing
combustable behind the
brick.(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/woodheat/photos/album/250922520/pic/2327444\
88/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc   )  If you were
to make something like this, with the manual specs(13 inches) but be only 1
sideways brick thick ,you could reduce the clearance, but you would need several
inches outside of the brick structure, so that it would act as a heat sink to
the stove, and as a radiator for the excess heat from the left right and back of
the alcove structure.

Study the concept, you may be able to build something like it, and still end up
with atleast 5 feet of book shelf space.

Sam


--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "artcheologist" <BJ@...> wrote:
>
> I'm having my first wood stove installed in a new and very well sealed and
insulated house. My problem is that I have only one 10 foot section of solid
wall in my living room with an almost floor length window on both sides. I need
to share this space between the stove, and books and entertainment equipment and
need to reduce the stove clearances as much as possible. The stove is small, a
Jotul F 602 CB, their smallest model but the company very carefully avoids
providing any information I could use to calculate and reduce their standardized
clearances.
>
> For example, they show that by adding a shield of noncombustible material with
a 1" air gap I can reduce the side clearance from 21" to 13". What I'd like to
know is if I can reduce it further by doubling the heat shield with another 1"
air gap and by how much. One thing I'm considering is making a 3 sided shield
from 1/8" steel with a second layer of 1/4" cement board between the stove and
the steel. The shield would be attached an inch from the conventional wall
behind the stove and would wrap around both sides. Another possibility would be
to build a narrow but tall triple wall wood box next to the stove so I could
start cabinets and shelves directly on the other side.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Brian in VT
>

Fortunately, since I live in Vermont, the laws of man don't really apply.
However, the far more precise and less malleable laws of physics still reign
supreme. I don't want to ignore or stretch the envelope and create an unsafe
situation. I just want to understand and use the physical principals to preserve
as much room as I can from my limited wall space. If a self cleaning oven can
safely reach 900ˇ F nestled between wood cabinets, surely there are ways to
safely reduce these clearances a little more.

Brian in Vermont

--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, <yahoogroups@...> wrote:
>
> 13"  is a very small clearance.  Nothing you can do would legally reduce it
> further. As you are finding out wood stoves take up quite a bit of space.
> It would most likely be easiest to find a new creative way to store the
> books somewhere else.  A 3 foot tall book shelf in front of the window
> during the winter would be one possibility.   Good luck.

Brian , you can do whatever you want and glibbly claim exemption because you
have a different view of Vermont, but simple facts are easy even for you to
understand. The manufacturer is not vague in it's recommendations. They are
precise. Trying to stretch that is sort of fuzzy logic. Or twice as sweet is
twice as good. The limit is there for a reason. SAFETY. You can shrink the
distance all you want, but if you have a fire, you lose. You lose the property
and hopefully not your life or  your loved ones. If you pack flammables around
the stove, like shelves of books, you increase the problem. Remember the stove
surface can reach 600 to 700+ degrees. Paper ignites at 451 degrees. I suppose a
pan of gasoline resting on a trivet might be ore dangerous, but I wouldn't try
either.

I really think you should consider another way of using that space. Books
shelves with knick-knacks might be better. Your insurance agent will love you.
He won't have to worry about explaining to his boss how he signed you up.
Firemen will love you for that one missed call-out. And your neighbors will love
you for not having that tragedy in their neighborhood.

Even the best plans go wrong sometimes, pushing that to a certainty seems at
best foolish. A red-tagged install will cost you more than doing it right.
Getting responsible users to agree to your "cockamayme" logic is not welcome
here in my opinion.

I'm sure we will help you with legal and safe advise, which you have gotten, but
not with obfuscating the safe operation of your stove.

--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "artcheologist" <BJ@...> wrote:
>
> Fortunately, since I live in Vermont, the laws of man don't really apply.
However, the far more precise and less malleable laws of physics still reign
supreme. I don't want to ignore or stretch the envelope and create an unsafe
situation. I just want to understand and use the physical principals to preserve
as much room as I can from my limited wall space. If a self cleaning oven can
safely reach 900ˇ F nestled between wood cabinets, surely there are ways to
safely reduce these clearances a little more.
>
> Brian in Vermont
>
> --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, <yahoogroups@> wrote:
> >
> > 13"  is a very small clearance.  Nothing you can do would legally reduce it
> > further. As you are finding out wood stoves take up quite a bit of space.
> > It would most likely be easiest to find a new creative way to store the
> > books somewhere else.  A 3 foot tall book shelf in front of the window
> > during the winter would be one possibility.   Good luck.
>

Jeez! Calm down Rich. There's no need to start calling people names. If you'd
read my post more carefully, you'd have noticed I specifically said I was NOT
looking to do anything unsafe. I'm just trying to get to the science behind all
the rules of thumb. I'm not asking your or anyone else's permission to bend the
rules. I was asking if anyone has the scientific or engineering knowledge to
help me understand how heat shields work and if there is a safe way to save a
little of my only functional wall space.

There is a lot of good scientific reasoning evident on this web site. I was
hoping some of the folks that wrote that material might be monitoring this
forum. That is... if you haven't chased them all off.

--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <furniturerestorer@...> wrote:
>
> Brian , you can do whatever you want and glibbly claim exemption because you
have a different view of Vermont, but simple facts are easy even for you to
understand. The manufacturer is not vague in it's recommendations. They are
precise. Trying to stretch that is sort of fuzzy logic. Or twice as sweet is
twice as good. The limit is there for a reason. SAFETY. You can shrink the
distance all you want, but if you have a fire, you lose. You lose the property
and hopefully not your life or  your loved ones. If you pack flammables around
the stove, like shelves of books, you increase the problem. Remember the stove
surface can reach 600 to 700+ degrees. Paper ignites at 451 degrees. I suppose a
pan of gasoline resting on a trivet might be ore dangerous, but I wouldn't try
either.
>
> I really think you should consider another way of using that space. Books
shelves with knick-knacks might be better. Your insurance agent will love you.
He won't have to worry about explaining to his boss how he signed you up.
Firemen will love you for that one missed call-out. And your neighbors will love
you for not having that tragedy in their neighborhood.
>
> Even the best plans go wrong sometimes, pushing that to a certainty seems at
best foolish. A red-tagged install will cost you more than doing it right.
Getting responsible users to agree to your "cockamayme" logic is not welcome
here in my opinion.
>
> I'm sure we will help you with legal and safe advise, which you have gotten,
but not with obfuscating the safe operation of your stove.
>
> --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "artcheologist" <BJ@> wrote:
> >
> > Fortunately, since I live in Vermont, the laws of man don't really apply.
However, the far more precise and less malleable laws of physics still reign
supreme. I don't want to ignore or stretch the envelope and create an unsafe
situation. I just want to understand and use the physical principals to preserve
as much room as I can from my limited wall space. If a self cleaning oven can
safely reach 900ˇ F nestled between wood cabinets, surely there are ways to
safely reduce these clearances a little more.
> >
> > Brian in Vermont
> >
> > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, <yahoogroups@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 13"  is a very small clearance.  Nothing you can do would legally reduce
it
> > > further. As you are finding out wood stoves take up quite a bit of space.
> > > It would most likely be easiest to find a new creative way to store the
> > > books somewhere else.  A 3 foot tall book shelf in front of the window
> > > during the winter would be one possibility.   Good luck.
> >
>

Yes let's keep it civilized here.

You said "For example, they show that by adding a shield of noncombustible
material with a
1" air gap I can reduce the side clearance from 21" to 13"."  Not so much!

If you check http://www.woodheat.org/safety/safeinstallation.htm
you'd see that the 21" could be 7" by the standard used in Canada and it
describes exactly how to do it.

Cal Wallis
Moderator

  Jeez! Calm down Rich. There's no need to start calling people names. If
> you'd read my post more carefully, you'd have noticed I specifically said
> I was NOT looking to do anything unsafe. I'm just trying to get to the
> science behind all the rules of thumb. I'm not asking your or anyone
> else's permission to bend the rules. I was asking if anyone has the
> scientific or engineering knowledge to help me understand how heat shields
> work and if there is a safe way to save a little of my only functional
> wall space.
>
> There is a lot of good scientific reasoning evident on this web site. I
> was hoping some of the folks that wrote that material might be monitoring
> this forum. That is... if you haven't chased them all off.
>
> --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <furniturerestorer@...> wrote:
>>
>> Brian , you can do whatever you want and glibbly claim exemption because
>> you have a different view of Vermont, but simple facts are easy even for
>> you to understand. The manufacturer is not vague in it's
>> recommendations. They are precise. Trying to stretch that is sort of
>> fuzzy logic. Or twice as sweet is twice as good. The limit is there for
>> a reason. SAFETY. You can shrink the distance all you want, but if you
>> have a fire, you lose. You lose the property and hopefully not your life
>> or  your loved ones. If you pack flammables around the stove, like
>> shelves of books, you increase the problem. Remember the stove surface
>> can reach 600 to 700+ degrees. Paper ignites at 451 degrees. I suppose a
>> pan of gasoline resting on a trivet might be ore dangerous, but I
>> wouldn't try either.
>>
>> I really think you should consider another way of using that space.
>> Books shelves with knick-knacks might be better. Your insurance agent
>> will love you. He won't have to worry about explaining to his boss how
>> he signed you up. Firemen will love you for that one missed call-out.
>> And your neighbors will love you for not having that tragedy in their
>> neighborhood.
>>
>> Even the best plans go wrong sometimes, pushing that to a certainty
>> seems at best foolish. A red-tagged install will cost you more than
>> doing it right. Getting responsible users to agree to your "cockamayme"
>> logic is not welcome here in my opinion.
>>
>> I'm sure we will help you with legal and safe advise, which you have
>> gotten, but not with obfuscating the safe operation of your stove.
>>
>> --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "artcheologist" <BJ@> wrote:
>> >
>> > Fortunately, since I live in Vermont, the laws of man don't really
>> apply. However, the far more precise and less malleable laws of
>> physics still reign supreme. I don't want to ignore or stretch the
>> envelope and create an unsafe situation. I just want to understand and
>> use the physical principals to preserve as much room as I can from my
>> limited wall space. If a self cleaning oven can safely reach 900ˇ F
>> nestled between wood cabinets, surely there are ways to safely reduce
>> these clearances a little more.
>> >
>> > Brian in Vermont
>> >
>> > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, <yahoogroups@> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > 13"  is a very small clearance.  Nothing you can do would legally
>> reduce it
>> > > further. As you are finding out wood stoves take up quite a bit of
>> space.
>> > > It would most likely be easiest to find a new creative way to store
>> the
>> > > books somewhere else.  A 3 foot tall book shelf in front of the
>> window
>> > > during the winter would be one possibility.   Good luck.
>> >
>>
>
>
>

Check your local codes. Not sure, but from memory, the max that NFPA 211 will
allow is 66% which would get you down to seven inches.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: artcheologist<mailto:BJ@...>
   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com<mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 3:57 PM
   Subject: [woodheat] Reducing Clearances with multi wall heat shields?



   I'm having my first wood stove installed in a new and very well sealed and
insulated house. My problem is that I have only one 10 foot section of solid
wall in my living room with an almost floor length window on both sides. I need
to share this space between the stove, and books and entertainment equipment and
need to reduce the stove clearances as much as possible. The stove is small, a
Jotul F 602 CB, their smallest model but the company very carefully avoids
providing any information I could use to calculate and reduce their standardized
clearances.

   For example, they show that by adding a shield of noncombustible material with
a 1" air gap I can reduce the side clearance from 21" to 13". What I'd like to
know is if I can reduce it further by doubling the heat shield with another 1"
air gap and by how much. One thing I'm considering is making a 3 sided shield
from 1/8" steel with a second layer of 1/4" cement board between the stove and
the steel. The shield would be attached an inch from the conventional wall
behind the stove and would wrap around both sides. Another possibility would be
to build a narrow but tall triple wall wood box next to the stove so I could
start cabinets and shelves directly on the other side.

   Thanks!

   Brian in VT





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Cal,

I had seen this page and noticed the significantly greater reduction than in the
manufacturers charts. The biggest thing I can't find an answer to is if I can
safely gain the same percentage of reduction again (67% reduction of the 67%
reduction) with the addition of a second steel shield and air gap.

And Thanks Robert,

I'll see if my local library has a copy of NFPA 211. If I can document approved
methods for getting down to a 7" clearance I'll be a happy camper. Ultimately
I'm hoping to build a 3 sided shroud about 3 ft wide to house the 12" wide stove
while protecting some storage/display/entertainment area to the left and be able
to edge up to the floor length windows to the right.

If I can pull this of and end up building it I'll make sure post some pictures
when we finish in a few months.

Thanks again,

Brian

------------------------------------------------------

On Nov 20, 2009, at 2:42 PM, wood@... wrote:

Yes let's keep it civilized here.

You said "For example, they show that by adding a shield of noncombustible
material with a
1" air gap I can reduce the side clearance from 21" to 13"." Not so much!

If you check http://www.woodheat.org/safety/safeinstallation.htm
you'd see that the 21" could be 7" by the standard used in Canada and it
describes exactly how to do it.

Cal Wallis
Moderator


"ROBERT BELFER" <neptunechimney@...> wrote:
>
> Check your local codes. Not sure, but from memory, the max that NFPA 211 will
allow is 66% which would get you down to seven inches.

I went through a lot of similar searching when I did my stove installs.
This is all IMHO

A couple of the technical points the code is concerned with are;

Air flow on both sides of the shield.  Keeps heat transfer and heat soak to
a minimum.

Thermal isolation of the two sides of the shield.  It is useless to have a
great insulator with steel lags penetrating it and into studs say.

The code is not concerned so much about a one time hot area as it is about
keeping constant heat from drying out the wood and other flammables in the
structure which will over time greatly lower their combustion point.

A single wall pipe requires the same clearances an unrated stove does.  This
is often overlooked.  You shields need to go within an 1” or 3”  of the
ceiling.  Or you need to use double wall which reduces the clearance to
combustibles.

Thickness of any steel layer doesn’t matter, steel transmits heat, 20 gauge
or ˝ plate acts pretty much the same as far as heat transfer goes.

The same is true of ceramic tile and the like, thickness does not matter as
far as heat transfer goes.  Code treats 8” of solid concrete the same as
1/8” tile.

It is fairly tricky to hold and stabilize large heat shields without metal
through fasteners.

Hope that helps you understand some of the basis for code rules.







gggGary

Thanks Cal,

I had seen this page and noticed the significantly greater reduction than in
the manufacturers charts. The biggest thing I can't find an answer to is if
I can safely gain the same percentage of reduction again (67% reduction of
the 67% reduction) with the addition of a second steel shield and air gap.

And Thanks Robert,

I'll see if my local library has a copy of NFPA 211. If I can document
approved methods for getting down to a 7" clearance I'll be a happy camper.
Ultimately I'm hoping to build a 3 sided shroud about 3 ft wide to house the
12" wide stove while protecting some storage/display/entertainment area to
the left and be able to edge up to the floor length windows to the right.

If I can pull this of and end up building it I'll make sure post some
pictures when we finish in a few months.

Thanks again,

Brian

------------------------------------------------------

On Nov 20, 2009, at 2:42 PM, wood@superaje. <mailto:wood%40superaje.com> com
wrote:

Yes let's keep it civilized here.

You said "For example, they show that by adding a shield of noncombustible
material with a
1" air gap I can reduce the side clearance from 21" to 13"." Not so much!

If you check http://www.woodheat
<http://www.woodheat.org/safety/safeinstallation.htm>
.org/safety/safeinstallation.htm
you'd see that the 21" could be 7" by the standard used in Canada and it
describes exactly how to do it.

Cal Wallis
Moderator


"ROBERT BELFER" <neptunechimney@...> wrote:
>
> Check your local codes. Not sure, but from memory, the max that NFPA 211
will allow is 66% which would get you down to seven inches.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Generically called tile backer board or cement board it most usually comes
in 3’ x 5’ sheets. Durock is a popular brand.



gggGary

Charles:

Is the name of that material really "concrete backerboard"?  If I go into
Home Depot or Lowe's and ask for it, they will know what I am talking about?
How thick is it?

LC

***************************************************************
"deputiz'm"      http://groups.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LibertyDistricts_USA/>
yahoo.com/group/LibertyDistricts_USA/

...building a "well regulated militia", city by city... county by county.
Where will you get your badge?
********************************************************

________________________________
From: charles malone <airbornetrimmer@ <mailto:airbornetrimmer%40yahoo.com>
yahoo.com>
To: woodheat@yahoogroup <mailto:woodheat%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
Sent: Fri, November 20, 2009 5:05:22 PM
Subject: [woodheat] clearance.


my stack goes out a basement window(glass removed and replaced with concrete
backerboard) my stack is only about 7 inches from the ceiling, so i hung a
sheet of backerboard covered with aluminum foil about 1 inch down from the
sheetrock ceiling above the stovepipe. seems to work real well. the temp
under the board is about the same as the ceiling in the rest of the
basement. Boy am i glad codes doesnt seem to care about a stray stack
comming out of my house here.Last winter my partner in crime kept his harley
parked about 2 feet from his 55gal barrel stove, and just leaned a piece of
that concrete tile backer board against the stove side of the bike every
night. That backer board can take a lot of heat and do a good job.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Trish,

Wood inserts are just like regular stoves.  They do have a shell outside of the
wood stove so that air can be pushed through for heat transfer.  The exterior
shell of a wood insert without the fan will almost reach the same temperature as
a regular wood stove.(inserts need fans to transfer heat to the room)  The
protection to the house is the fireplace itself.  The fireplace can not be a
zero clearance fireplace(only very few exceptions), but it can be a conventional
masonry, or heat-a-lator type fireplace.  When a conventional fireplace is built
to code, it can take the heat of an insert.

For an isert when my fan is running the exterior shell does not go above 150
degrees, however, my insert is installed like a hearth mount stove, with 4
inches of air space between the insert and each side of the heat-a-lator.  I
also don't have the front pannel.  If the unit was closed in(with the front
pannel), without air flow between the exterior shell and the firplace, the
temperature might increase, but I don't know how much.

Artcheologist chose a radient stove(no shell), which will radiate its full heat
potential into the surrounding structures which is why they have the clearance
to combustable listed in the manual.  A different stove might have been a better
choice.  That is why we sometimes say, "fit the stove to the house".  A
different unit could be slightly larger, but have the ability to create smaller
clearances to combustables, and thus need less total space.

Sam




--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, Patricia Mansfield-Devine <trish@...> wrote:
>
> artcheologist wrote:
> > If a self cleaning oven can safely reach 900ˇ F nestled between wood
cabinets, surely there are ways to safely reduce these clearances a little more.
> >
> Have you considered building a brick chimney in and having an insert
> instead of a woodstove?
>
> Inserts are insulated inside with rockwool or similar, and get hot on
> the top and front, but only warm to the touch on the sides and back, so
> they can go near-enough flush with brickwork, etc. But they do need a
> proper chimney to insert into.
>
> :) Trish
>
> --
> Patricia Mansfield-Devine
> Writer & Journalist - www.webvivant.com
> SecondCherry - the Over-40s Babe - www.secondcherry.com
>

We only have 6.5 acres.  2.5 is house, yard, lane.  4 is pasture with a 'wash'
down one side from a neighboring field.  Boxelder multiplied like weeds in this
draw, so we're taking them out. There are a few mature elm, an oak and an ash
that we're keeping. I did plant 5 more oak, 5 sugar maple, 4 willow and 3
hackberry, but they're all under 5' tall.  They're more for aesthetic value and
erosion control than firewood, since we'll be using the pasture for a horse or 2
and possibly goats in the future.  There's plenty of timber around us that the
farmer wants cleaned up (dead, dying trees, etc) so we'll be ok for at least 10
yrs with wood that's less than a mile from our house.
S


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As far as I know, double shielding has never been tested, so no there is
no further reduction to be had.
7" is pretty close for a stove that's expected to heat a room.
As the saying goes "Space heaters need space".

Cal

Thanks Cal,
>
> I had seen this page and noticed the significantly greater reduction than
> in the manufacturers charts. The biggest thing I can't find an answer to
> is if I can safely gain the same percentage of reduction again (67%
> reduction of the 67% reduction) with the addition of a second steel shield
> and air gap.
>
> And Thanks Robert,
>
> I'll see if my local library has a copy of NFPA 211. If I can document
> approved methods for getting down to a 7" clearance I'll be a happy
> camper. Ultimately I'm hoping to build a 3 sided shroud about 3 ft wide to
> house the 12" wide stove while protecting some
> storage/display/entertainment area to the left and be able to edge up to
> the floor length windows to the right.
>
> If I can pull this of and end up building it I'll make sure post some
> pictures when we finish in a few months.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Brian
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Nov 20, 2009, at 2:42 PM, wood@... wrote:
>
> Yes let's keep it civilized here.
>
> You said "For example, they show that by adding a shield of noncombustible
> material with a
> 1" air gap I can reduce the side clearance from 21" to 13"." Not so much!
>
> If you check http://www.woodheat.org/safety/safeinstallation.htm
> you'd see that the 21" could be 7" by the standard used in Canada and it
> describes exactly how to do it.
>
> Cal Wallis
> Moderator
>
>
> "ROBERT BELFER" <neptunechimney@...> wrote:
>>
>> Check your local codes. Not sure, but from memory, the max that NFPA 211
>> will allow is 66% which would get you down to seven inches.
>
>
>

Hmmm... interesting point and now that you mention it it makes perfect sense.
However it calls my floor into question. We have a 4" concrete slab and so far
everyone including the architect, contractor and stove store has said we don't
need to worry about a hearth. But with your statement about heat transfer I
realized that our slab has been isolated from the foundation and the ground
underneath it by 2" of rigid foam. I wonder if the concrete has the conductivity
to draw that heat of before it reaches the melting point of the foam? Looks like
I'll be making some phone calls Monday morning!

The design I'm thinking about for my heat shield is pretty close to complying
with Jotul's recommendations now anyway. I'm considering an almost parabolic
shape with an 18" radius in the back extending into straight sides for another
16" that are open about 10 degrees on both sides. If I make this double wall,
the second layer will just really act as a barrier to keep that 1" distance to
any combustibles. If I make the inner shield from polished stainless, it may
even help reflect allot of the radiant heat forward out into the room.

--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, <yahoogroups@...> wrote:
>
[snip]

> Thickness of any steel layer doesn't matter, steel transmits heat, 20 gauge
> or ˝ plate acts pretty much the same as far as heat transfer goes.
>
> The same is true of ceramic tile and the like, thickness does not matter as
> far as heat transfer goes.  Code treats 8" of solid concrete the same as
> 1/8" tile.
>
> It is fairly tricky to hold and stabilize large heat shields without metal
> through fasteners.
>
[snip]
> gggGary

I probably wouldn’t worry about the floor either.  The air circulation will
tend to keep it cooler than the walls due to the internal heat flows of the
stove and the insulating properties of ash.  The bottom of he stove most
likely radiates the least heat. If it has an ash pan that is even more true.
The slab also transfers heat outward so the amount of heat getting through
4” shouldn’t be that much. I checked and Dow gives a maximum use temp of
165F  Code or not 165F on the bottom  side of 4” of concrete under a stove
seems pretty unlikely.  And the 165F is use, not failure temp.  They use
that stuff under black rubber roofs. How hot do they get?



gggGary

from Wisconsin

   _____

From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of artcheologist
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 8:41 PM
To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [woodheat] Re: Reducing Clearances with multi wall heat shields?





Hmmm... interesting point and now that you mention it it makes perfect
sense. However it calls my floor into question. We have a 4" concrete slab
and so far everyone including the architect, contractor and stove store has
said we don't need to worry about a hearth. But with your statement about
heat transfer I realized that our slab has been isolated from the foundation
and the ground underneath it by 2" of rigid foam. I wonder if the concrete
has the conductivity to draw that heat of before it reaches the melting
point of the foam? Looks like I'll be making some phone calls Monday
morning!

The design I'm thinking about for my heat shield is pretty close to
complying with Jotul's recommendations now anyway. I'm considering an almost
parabolic shape with an 18" radius in the back extending into straight sides
for another 16" that are open about 10 degrees on both sides. If I make this
double wall, the second layer will just really act as a barrier to keep that
1" distance to any combustibles. If I make the inner shield from polished
stainless, it may even help reflect allot of the radiant heat forward out
into the room.

--- In woodheat@yahoogroup <mailto:woodheat%40yahoogroups.com> s.com,
<yahoogroups@...> wrote:
>
[snip]

> Thickness of any steel layer doesn't matter, steel transmits heat, 20
gauge
> or ˝ plate acts pretty much the same as far as heat transfer goes.
>
> The same is true of ceramic tile and the like, thickness does not matter
as
> far as heat transfer goes. Code treats 8" of solid concrete the same as
> 1/8" tile.
>
> It is fairly tricky to hold and stabilize large heat shields without metal
> through fasteners.
>
[snip]
> gggGary





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We have posted new content at the woodpile this morning.
See:
http://woodheat.org/woodpile/
John


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John this link is invalid now.

Where there's smoke, there's toxic chemicals
<http://www.bclocalnews.com/opinion/70637402.html>



gggGary

from Wisconsin

We have posted new content at the woodpile this morning.
See:
http://woodheat. <http://woodheat.org/woodpile/> org/woodpile/
John





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

gggGary wrote:
>
> John this link is invalid now.
>
> Where there's smoke, there's toxic chemicals
> <http://www.bclocalnews.com/opinion/70637402.html>

Thanks Gary. That bclocalnews is a compiler that doesn't keep articles around
for long. I usually try to get back to the original source, but in this case it
was a community newspaper with no online presence. Thanks for finding the bad
link.
John

Where can I buy chimney pipe for my woodburning stove? Is it different from
HVAC ducting?

Thanks,
John

Yes it is different.  I assume you mean flue pipe in free air from the stove
to the chimney?  Normally called stove or smoke pipe, It is 24 gauge, a much
heavier wall than HVAC duct pipe.  For wood stoves Black painted pipe is
normally used, not galvanized due to the hazardous gasses that the zinc can
give off if it gets too hot. Double wall pipe is also available, again for
use in open air.  The double wall allows for reduced clearances to
combustibles which is typically 36" for single wall.



gggGary

from Wisconsin

Where can I buy chimney pipe for my woodburning stove? Is it different from
HVAC ducting?

Thanks,
John





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Anyone here have experience with the AHS Woodgun?

I've put in-floor heat in my addition,
and I'm looking for the best way of heating it.
I also want the ability to fall-back on oil heat,
for when we have to leave for a vacation,
or for any other time that we cannot keep the wood boiler going.

I'm considering getting a AHS Woodgun, and would need to build
a small outbuilding for it.

Does anyone have any URLs for photos/plans for this type of building?

Black stove pipe, to connect your wood stove to your chimney or wall
penetration, is available at most big box retailers(Home depo and Lowes).  Some
chains like tractor supply company, or hardware stores may also carry parts to
make the connections.  Specialty wood stove stores also carry the parts to make
the connections to your chimney or the parts to create an insulated chimney
inside your home without needing bricks, morter, clay liners or chimney blocks.

For reference check out selkirk venting products, as an example.  You will want
to look for "all fuels" on insulated chimneys.  Their illistrations will also
show you the connection parts(black stove pipe connection strategies) in the
illistrations.

Do not use HVAC pipe to make the connection. The gas given off when heated to
stove pipe temperatures is toxic and can kill you.  Go for the heavier black
stove pipe.  If clearence is an issue, you can also look at double wall vented
and non vented connections pipes.

Sam


--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "John S. Moss" <jlmoss@...> wrote:
>
> Where can I buy chimney pipe for my woodburning stove? Is it different from
> HVAC ducting?
>
> Thanks,
> John
>

Gary,
  It is 18 in for single wall black pipe, 36 for an unlisted stove.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: yahoogroups@...<mailto:yahoogroups@...>
   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com<mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:31 PM
   Subject: RE: [woodheat] Wood Stove pipe



   Yes it is different. I assume you mean flue pipe in free air from the stove
   to the chimney? Normally called stove or smoke pipe, It is 24 gauge, a much
   heavier wall than HVAC duct pipe. For wood stoves Black painted pipe is
   normally used, not galvanized due to the hazardous gasses that the zinc can
   give off if it gets too hot. Double wall pipe is also available, again for
   use in open air. The double wall allows for reduced clearances to
   combustibles which is typically 36" for single wall.

   gggGary

   from Wisconsin

   Where can I buy chimney pipe for my woodburning stove? Is it different from
   HVAC ducting?

   Thanks,
   John

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Anybody have positive/negative comments on Magnolia Stoves. I see a few up for
sale locally. I  wonder if they age quick? Or hold up? Thanks.

I found some double wall pipe that was labeled Gas Vent at HD. Will that
suffice for a wood stove?

   -----Original Message-----
   From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of yahoogroups@...
   Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:32 PM
   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: RE: [woodheat] Wood Stove pipe



   Yes it is different. I assume you mean flue pipe in free air from the
stove
   to the chimney? Normally called stove or smoke pipe, It is 24 gauge, a
much
   heavier wall than HVAC duct pipe. For wood stoves Black painted pipe is
   normally used, not galvanized due to the hazardous gasses that the zinc
can
   give off if it gets too hot. Double wall pipe is also available, again for
   use in open air. The double wall allows for reduced clearances to
   combustibles which is typically 36" for single wall.

   gggGary

   from Wisconsin

   Where can I buy chimney pipe for my woodburning stove? Is it different
from
   HVAC ducting?

   Thanks,
   John

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just in case you are serious: no, gas vent is NOT safe to use on wood
stoves. Even some zero clearance fireplace vent pipes are not good enough
for wood stove use.

I should think you want to be looking for pipe labeled for wood stove use?

A wood stove's exhaust can get to about 4 times as hot as a gas appliance
exhaust. A chimney fire can go up above 2000 degrees F

Perhaps if you told us what you were trying to do we could help?



gggGary

from Wisconsin

I found some double wall pipe that was labeled Gas Vent at HD. Will that
suffice for a wood stove?

-----Original Message-----
From: woodheat@yahoogroup <mailto:woodheat%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
[mailto:woodheat@yahoogroup <mailto:woodheat%40yahoogroups.com> s.com]On
Behalf
Of yahoogroups@ <mailto:yahoogroups%40bsupply.us> bsupply.us
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:32 PM
To: woodheat@yahoogroup <mailto:woodheat%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
Subject: RE: [woodheat] Wood Stove pipe

Yes it is different. I assume you mean flue pipe in free air from the
stove
to the chimney? Normally called stove or smoke pipe, It is 24 gauge, a
much
heavier wall than HVAC duct pipe. For wood stoves Black painted pipe is
normally used, not galvanized due to the hazardous gasses that the zinc
can
give off if it gets too hot. Double wall pipe is also available, again for
use in open air. The double wall allows for reduced clearances to
combustibles which is typically 36" for single wall.

gggGary

from Wisconsin

Where can I buy chimney pipe for my woodburning stove? Is it different
from
HVAC ducting?

Thanks,
John

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The long answer is: "Nope" the short answer is; "No" Gas vent is for natural gas
appliances and is not rated for the heat of the stove.

--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "John S. Moss" <jlmoss@...> wrote:
>
> I found some double wall pipe that was labeled Gas Vent at HD. Will that
> suffice for a wood stove?
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
> Of yahoogroups@...
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:32 PM
>   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: RE: [woodheat] Wood Stove pipe
>
>
>
>   Yes it is different. I assume you mean flue pipe in free air from the
> stove
>   to the chimney? Normally called stove or smoke pipe, It is 24 gauge, a
> much
>   heavier wall than HVAC duct pipe. For wood stoves Black painted pipe is
>   normally used, not galvanized due to the hazardous gasses that the zinc
> can
>   give off if it gets too hot. Double wall pipe is also available, again for
>   use in open air. The double wall allows for reduced clearances to
>   combustibles which is typically 36" for single wall.
>
>   gggGary
>
>   from Wisconsin
>
>   Where can I buy chimney pipe for my woodburning stove? Is it different
> from
>   HVAC ducting?
>
>   Thanks,
>   John
>
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>