I basically do the same thing with my 4000 sq ft 110 year old house in
the cold climate of Northern Minnesota. It is not practical to try and
install and heat the home with a woodstove, but I have cut my oil
usage in half by installing a quadrafire wood pellet stove. The oil
furnace runs at night, and the pellet stove most of the day. The
pellet stove has the ability to heat most of the first floor, which is
where about 80% of the day to day living occurs anyway so its perfect.
The cost to purchase and install the stove were less than the wood
counterpart, its simple to operate and uses a thermostat start and
stop, and it's a far cleaner fuel than wood for my house.

My cabin I heat with wood almost exclusively, but with a big home like
your describing providing a good, easy to install and operate, clean
source of heat to maintain the main "living" areas of your house might
be the best strategy. Its worked for me and made a significant impact
on my heating costs while giving me the comfort I was looking for.

Andrew


   "eringer2000_53188" wrote:
>
> Affirmitive on the big windows. Lots of them on the west side of the
> house & we only got double paned because $ were becoming tight
> during the design process. We did get triple paned in the master
> bath & sun room & they are far superior judging by condensation on
> cold mornings.
> I may have to look into that warm spouse program.
>
> Steve
>
>
>

One key thing to look at is GPM flow rate of the pump doing the work
and the cylinder's size (Bore).  A hand jack can produce lots of
force, but little work.  This is very similar to PSI ratings on
pressure washers.  If the Gal. Per Min rate is lower it will do less
work/take much longer to complete.

That is the best way to compare splitters.  My fathers new unit I
think was 10 gal/min with a 10 sec cycles.  Hoses look like 2.5-3" dia
on the return side, but that is what it takes to move that much fluid
quickly.  So far even with large 2' long and knoty oak huge chucks it
has never gotten stock on the wedge.  This set-up is very expensive,
however when comparing units many times you have to look at the pump
on the moter it self to tell the output.  Cylinder along with pressure
behind it create the force.  If your often pressed for time look for a
high output pump.


--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, Keith McHugh <keithmchugh@...> wrote:
>
> Kathy,
> I use a 20 HP homemade horizontal wood splitter.  I just upgraded it
> this year to new engine, hoses, etc.
>
> What I have found with large diameter wood - is that if you tilt the
> wood up and only catch the bottom 1" to 2" of the wood with the
> splitting wedge - that it will go through any diameter wood.  If you
try
> to split the wood head on with the whole wedge - it will require so
much
> pressure that the log splitter will not do the job - I have had some
> dense 2 foot diameter pieces of wood get stuck on the wedge.  So I
just
> bang the wood off the wedge with another heavy log - tilt it up so I
> just catch the edge of the wood and it goes through.
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
>
> Kathy wrote:
>
> > Hi Ty,
> >
> > Yes, I'd be interested in some input too on the "ton" and "hp"
pros
> > and cons.
> >
> > I've looked at a few splitters in the past month or so.
> > http://www.minisplitters.com/  This model is a 6-ton foot-operated
> > hydraulic one.  $199
> >
> > They also make an 8-ton manual (foot-oeprated) for $239
> > http://www.minisplitters.com/PriceList.html and a 12-ton model
that
> > can be used manually or by an air compressor for $349.  The music
on
> > their site is a little dipsy tho, IMO.
> >
> > Northern Tool has a manually operated 10-ton splitter for $130
> > http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/
ProductDisplay3?
> > storeId=6970&productId=200316859&R=200316859
> >
> > Has anyone used any of these less-expensive (read cheap - lol)
> > splitters or know of anyone who has?
> >
> > While it would be nice to own a super-duper sized splitter, they
are
> > a bit on the high $ end for me at this time.  I don't particularly
> > want to blow what I've saved this winter, plus more, on a high-end
> > model, but I would be willing to get something on the low-end if I
> > knew it worked.  It's not like I'm splitting a lot of really big
> > logs.  Most of what I get is scrounged from road work and is
usually
> > in the 8-10" diameter range ... my guess is 12-14" diameter max .
..
> > although a friend's hubby has brought me some 18-20" rounds he's
> > scrounged on the side of the road ... I'm waiting till they start
to
> > crack on their own before even attempting to split them - rofl.
> >
> >
> > Kathy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "tcsmaa" <tcsmaa@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ok Guys I want to talk about log splitters.  I am looking to buy
a
> > > huskee 22 ton.   How does one figure out if you need a 22, 27 or
35
> > > ton spliter?   I firgure I may split between 5 to 15 cords a
year.
> > between
> > > myself a neiobor, motherin law need some wood.  I want to hear
what
> > > everone uses?  Let see some pictures of what your using.
> > >
> > > Ty Tyson
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Check THE woodheat web site at  http://www.woodheat.org
> > To receive no more messages email:  woodheat-
unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > Wood heat
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Wood+heat&w1=Wood+heat&w2=Conservation&w3=Woodheat&c=3&s=47&.
sig=AuhZgOYMldTkpxWb8UBoYg>
> >  Conservation
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Conservation&w1=Wood+heat&w2=Conservation&w3=Woodheat&c=3&s=47&.
sig=RHf_qWBteuyLtCiMTCFn9g>
> >  Woodheat
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Woodheat&w1=Wood+heat&w2=Conservation&w3=Woodheat&c=3&s=47&.
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> >
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>

It just blows my mind to here people say they pay $0.05 per kwh.  I pay
close to $0.15 per kwh here in Vermont.  Even 15 years ago it was over a
dime a kwh.  Where does all that cheap juice come from?

Scott


>From: monte bloyd <mbloyd@...>
>Reply-To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
>To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [woodheat] BIG house wood heat
>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:36:45 -0600
>
>...This is my first experience with electric heat but I'm
>not enthused so far. It runs about a nickel per KWH here in south
>central Ne. and I need to pinch those nickels to pay for the place.
>This has been a warm winter with only one three week stretch of zero
>degree cold, but next year that could be twenty below.
>
>Oh by the way we are on the Platte River and it's waterfowl season with
>birds everywhere and it's great.
>
>Monte

I guess I really stirred something up here..

   I would agree with this, but in my situation I don't really want more heat
output.  My house stays plenty warm even on the coldest days we've had so far.. 
If I get more heat I would have to let the fire go out so the house cools down
before reloading the fire.  I guess I will have to live with my wood consumption
for now.

   Thanks for all the input..

Chad


samiamrd <taborl@...> wrote:
   I would agree that it is a big assumption but it is a good one.  But,
the flip side, is that a good operator of a non epa certified wood
stove does not become an idiot when they convert to an EPA certified
wood stove.  A good operator of one will be a good operator of the
other.  The increased efficiency comes from a reburn of the smoke
which is not possible with the non EPA certified wood stove hence on
average, more heat output from the same amount of wood.

The better performance is by design and in the lab is reproducable.

Sam





--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Andre' Blanchard" <andre_54005@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "samiamrd" <taborl@> wrote:
>
> >
> > If you are not using an EPA certified wood stove, your using 50%
> more
> > wood than you need to use.
> >
>
> This makes the very big assumption that all EPA certified stoves
are
> equality efficient and that all non EPA stoves are equally
> inefficient.
> You really should allow for the fact that the universe is not black
> and white, it is a continuum of shades of gray and even some color.
> Is it not possible for a stove to be very efficient but not EPA
> certified?
> _____________
> Andre' B.
>







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You have to keep in mind that most power companies cut the rate per
KWH drastically if you use electric for heating. I am in west michigan
I pay .085 per KWH for normal use and if i were to heat with it the
rate drops to around .06 per KWH.Monte is using elec as his primary
source and uses a lot of it so they drop the price. Also keep in mind
when people brag about their low cost of heating with a ground source
heat pump these lower costs per KWH apply. Personally the damage to
the environment is the same regardless of how it is used and we should
all strive to use less.
   The cheapest juice comes from coal fired plants that spew
radioactive minerals and sulfur in the sky and that is OK because it
is cheap.Nuclear plants are more expensive to run and are not allowed
to release ANY radioactivity period. Like I said use less and we may
have something to pass down to our children.

John in west mi
Tarm solo 140
3400 square foot(six kids)
Did not burn any propane this season
Domestic HW 100% tarm heated.
4 cords this year

--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Berkey" <berkeyscott@...> wrote:
>
> It just blows my mind to here people say they pay $0.05 per kwh.  I pay
> close to $0.15 per kwh here in Vermont.  Even 15 years ago it was
over a
> dime a kwh.  Where does all that cheap juice come from?
>
> Scott
>
>
> >From: monte bloyd <mbloyd@...>
> >Reply-To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> >To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [woodheat] BIG house wood heat
> >Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:36:45 -0600
> >
> >...This is my first experience with electric heat but I'm
> >not enthused so far. It runs about a nickel per KWH here in south
> >central Ne. and I need to pinch those nickels to pay for the place.
> >This has been a warm winter with only one three week stretch of zero
> >degree cold, but next year that could be twenty below.
> >
> >Oh by the way we are on the Platte River and it's waterfowl season with
> >birds everywhere and it's great.
> >
> >Monte
>

It probably comes from coal, Scott.  I live in VT and electricity is very
expensive here, some of the most expensive in the country, I believe, along
with some other things...phone rates for one.  We are one of the only places
that has locally measured service, and can't get flat rate, bundled
services.  A pet peeve with me.

When I lived in Rouses Point, NY.  Our electrical rate was .05/KW.
Our electric company had a contract with Hydro Quebec.  They produced
the electricity with water.  We heated with electric baseboard at
that rate.

In southern NY, the delivered rate is .15 to .19 per KW.  That source
is a combination of NG, Coal, Nuc power.  I guess that the rate is
right, the durtier the power, the more expensive it should be.  That
will force more people to conserve.

Sam






--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Berkey" <berkeyscott@...>
wrote:
>
> It just blows my mind to here people say they pay $0.05 per kwh.  I
pay
> close to $0.15 per kwh here in Vermont.  Even 15 years ago it was
over a
> dime a kwh.  Where does all that cheap juice come from?
>
> Scott
>
>
> >From: monte bloyd <mbloyd@...>
> >Reply-To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> >To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [woodheat] BIG house wood heat
> >Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:36:45 -0600
> >
> >...This is my first experience with electric heat but I'm
> >not enthused so far. It runs about a nickel per KWH here in south
> >central Ne. and I need to pinch those nickels to pay for the place.
> >This has been a warm winter with only one three week stretch of
zero
> >degree cold, but next year that could be twenty below.
> >
> >Oh by the way we are on the Platte River and it's waterfowl season
with
> >birds everywhere and it's great.
> >
> >Monte
>

Another BIG assumption to add to the list. You know what they say
happens when you ASSume things?
Rock
--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "samiamrd" <taborl@...> wrote:
>
> I would agree that it is a big assumption but it is a good one.
But,
> the flip side, is that a good operator of a non epa certified wood
> stove does not become an idiot when they convert to an EPA
certified
> wood stove.  A good operator of one will be a good operator of the
> other.  The increased efficiency comes from a reburn of the smoke
> which is not possible with the non EPA certified wood stove hence
on
> average, more heat output from the same amount of wood.
>
> The better performance is by design and in the lab is reproducable.
>
> Sam
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Andre' Blanchard" <andre_54005@>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "samiamrd" <taborl@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > If you are not using an EPA certified wood stove, your using
50%
> > more
> > > wood than you need to use.
> > >
> >
> > This makes the very big assumption that all EPA certified stoves
> are
> > equality efficient and that all non EPA stoves are equally
> > inefficient.
> > You really should allow for the fact that the universe is not
black
> > and white, it is a continuum of shades of gray and even some
color.
> > Is it not possible for a stove to be very efficient but not EPA
> > certified?
> > _____________
> > Andre' B.
> >
>

It is interesting that your cheap electricity came from Hydro Quebec,
because that is what we have in VT--a contract with Hydro Quebec.
Karen

Lets hit this from the start Chad is heating with a non epa insert He has
PLENTY of heat output He is burning six cords  a year in Ohio and wants to
know how others burn less.  Money is tight. The windows have been replaced.
Insulation has not been upgraded. To my mind on a budget here's what I would
look at.  Finding a good deal on an EPA stove system.  Stove and chimney go
hand in hand as John keeps reminding us.  Places to look  Used, Ebay. dealer
model change. ETC  I have found that there are GOOD stoves out there being
sold due to change of house ownership, unwillingness to keep the home fires
burning getting older ETC. Think about getting ready for next years heating,
no hurry, the right stove can be found nearby if you keep looking.  Sure you
are going to have to look them over carefully but stoves are still pretty
simple, if they are straight and not getting thin anywhere they are probably
good to burn, the most likely problem might be cat needing replacement?
Anyway in his case a tight efficient stove and possibly adding insulation
where cost effective. (Think attic) Should? get him down to the 4 cord
range.  Heck the payback on blowing the attic to a good depth would be worth
a home loan if needed. Not only lower heat costs but home value is improved.
Lets not forget the benefit to us all of cutting the amount of smoke going
up the chimney.

Maybe one sticking point here is that EPA Cert label.  It just means that
the Manufacturer has spent some engineering time testing his product to use
fuel effiently. It's the like the MPG stickeron a car not perfect but an
easy assurance that the stove burns decently. Are there NON epa stoves out
there that are efficient?  sure but the odds increase if it has the cert.
Stoves aren't the only thing that blow smoke in advertising.  Are 2000 era
cars cleaner and more fuel efficient than 70's cars?  Yup, would they have
gotten that way purely driven by market demand?  Not as fast would be my
bet.  I am not fond of guv regulation but it has it's place.  The market
tends to go for lowest out of pocket cost vs long term benefit.

gggggGary

Another BIG assumption to add to the list. You know what they say
happens when you ASSume things?
Rock
--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "samiamrd" <taborl@...> wrote:
>
> I would agree that it is a big assumption but it is a good one.
But,
> the flip side, is that a good operator of a non epa certified wood
> stove does not become an idiot when they convert to an EPA
certified
> wood stove.  A good operator of one will be a good operator of the
> other.  The increased efficiency comes from a reburn of the smoke
> which is not possible with the non EPA certified wood stove hence
on
> average, more heat output from the same amount of wood.
>
> The better performance is by design and in the lab is reproducable.
>
> Sam
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Andre' Blanchard" <andre_54005@>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "samiamrd" <taborl@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > If you are not using an EPA certified wood stove, your using
50%
> > more
> > > wood than you need to use.
> > >
> >
> > This makes the very big assumption that all EPA certified stoves
> are
> > equality efficient and that all non EPA stoves are equally
> > inefficient.
> > You really should allow for the fact that the universe is not
black
> > and white, it is a continuum of shades of gray and even some
color.
> > Is it not possible for a stove to be very efficient but not EPA
> > certified?
> > _____________
> > Andre' B.
> >
>






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Scott.
We are mostly coal fired out here. Wyoming is coming to Nebraska.
Trains out here are very long and a lot of traffic.

Monte
On Mar 1, 2006, at 7:48 AM, Scott Berkey wrote:

> It just blows my mind to here people say they pay $0.05 per kwh.  I pay
>  close to $0.15 per kwh here in Vermont.  Even 15 years ago it was
> over a
>  dime a kwh.  Where does all that cheap juice come from?
>
>  Scott
>
>
>  >From: monte bloyd <mbloyd@...>
>  >Reply-To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
>  >To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
>  >Subject: Re: [woodheat] BIG house wood heat
>  >Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:36:45 -0600
>  >
>  >...This is my first experience with electric heat but I'm
>  >not enthused so far. It runs about a nickel per KWH here in south
>  >central Ne. and I need to pinch those nickels to pay for the place.
>  >This has been a warm winter with only one three week stretch of zero
>  >degree cold, but next year that could be twenty below.
>  >
>  >Oh by the way we are on the Platte River and it's waterfowl season
> with
>  >birds everywhere and it's great.
>  >
>  >Monte
>
>
>
>
> Check THE woodheat web site at  http://www.woodheat.org
>  To receive no more messages email: 
> woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Wood heat
> Conservation
> Woodheat
>
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>  ▪   Visit your group "woodheat" on the web.
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>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There are incentives for all electric and they don't scrub those coal
plants the way they should. I think the technology exists but the won't
use it until forced

Monte
On Mar 1, 2006, at 8:09 AM, jarepp2000 wrote:

> You have to keep in mind that most power companies cut the rate per
>  KWH drastically if you use electric for heating. I am in west michigan
>  I pay .085 per KWH for normal use and if i were to heat with it the
>  rate drops to around .06 per KWH.Monte is using elec as his primary
>  source and uses a lot of it so they drop the price. Also keep in mind
>  when people brag about their low cost of heating with a ground source
>  heat pump these lower costs per KWH apply. Personally the damage to
>  the environment is the same regardless of how it is used and we should
>  all strive to use less.
>    The cheapest juice comes from coal fired plants that spew
>  radioactive minerals and sulfur in the sky and that is OK because it
>  is cheap.Nuclear plants are more expensive to run and are not allowed
>  to release ANY radioactivity period. Like I said use less and we may
>  have something to pass down to our children.
>
>  John in west mi
>  Tarm solo 140
>  3400 square foot(six kids)
>  Did not burn any propane this season
>  Domestic HW 100% tarm heated.
>  4 cords this year
>
>  --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Berkey" <berkeyscott@...>
> wrote:
>  >
>  > It just blows my mind to here people say they pay $0.05 per kwh.  I
> pay
>  > close to $0.15 per kwh here in Vermont.  Even 15 years ago it was
>  over a
>  > dime a kwh.  Where does all that cheap juice come from?
>  >
>  > Scott
>  >
>  >
>  > >From: monte bloyd <mbloyd@...>
>  > >Reply-To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
>  > >To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
>  > >Subject: Re: [woodheat] BIG house wood heat
>  > >Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:36:45 -0600
>  > >
>  > >...This is my first experience with electric heat but I'm
>  > >not enthused so far. It runs about a nickel per KWH here in south
>  > >central Ne. and I need to pinch those nickels to pay for the place.
>  > >This has been a warm winter with only one three week stretch of
> zero
>  > >degree cold, but next year that could be twenty below.
>  > >
>  > >Oh by the way we are on the Platte River and it's waterfowl season
> with
>  > >birds everywhere and it's great.
>  > >
>  > >Monte
>  >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Check THE woodheat web site at  http://www.woodheat.org
>  To receive no more messages email: 
> woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Wood heat
> Conservation
> Woodheat
>
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>
>  ▪   Visit your group "woodheat" on the web.
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>  
>  ▪   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

western nebraska gets some power from the powerdam on the Platte River
at Ogalla. They are also putting up some wind generation out here.
Monte
On Mar 1, 2006, at 8:17 AM, samiamrd wrote:

> When I lived in Rouses Point, NY.  Our electrical rate was .05/KW. 
>  Our electric company had a contract with Hydro Quebec.  They produced
>  the electricity with water.  We heated with electric baseboard at
>  that rate.
>
>  In southern NY, the delivered rate is .15 to .19 per KW.  That source
>  is a combination of NG, Coal, Nuc power.  I guess that the rate is
>  right, the durtier the power, the more expensive it should be.  That
>  will force more people to conserve.
>
>  Sam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Berkey" <berkeyscott@...>
>  wrote:
>  >
>  > It just blows my mind to here people say they pay $0.05 per kwh.  I
>  pay
>  > close to $0.15 per kwh here in Vermont.  Even 15 years ago it was
>  over a
>  > dime a kwh.  Where does all that cheap juice come from?
>  >
>  > Scott
>  >
>  >
>  > >From: monte bloyd <mbloyd@...>
>  > >Reply-To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
>  > >To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
>  > >Subject: Re: [woodheat] BIG house wood heat
>  > >Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:36:45 -0600
>  > >
>  > >...This is my first experience with electric heat but I'm
>  > >not enthused so far. It runs about a nickel per KWH here in south
>  > >central Ne. and I need to pinch those nickels to pay for the place.
>  > >This has been a warm winter with only one three week stretch of
>  zero
>  > >degree cold, but next year that could be twenty below.
>  > >
>  > >Oh by the way we are on the Platte River and it's waterfowl season
>  with
>  > >birds everywhere and it's great.
>  > >
>  > >Monte
>  >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Check THE woodheat web site at  http://www.woodheat.org
>  To receive no more messages email: 
> woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The feds will help you tighten up your house this year and next.
  Items that qualify
Insulation
Water heaters
Furnaces
Boilers
Heat pumps
Windows
Doors
Storm windows and doors
No wood stoves yet!!
up to $500 with $200 of that in windows  tax credit of 10% of money spent on
product not installation.
Details;
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-06-26.pdf


gggGary


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I personally get a bit upset when I hear about waste of firewood.
   A neighbor of ours sells Wood Boilers "on-the-side" to supplement
   his income. More & more of the are showing up our area of the countryside.
   One of our Neighbors loves them - "only used 12-15 cords of wood last
winter"!!??
   He is constantly going to-and-fro with loads of wood in the back of his truck
   and in the back of his trailer. He is not the only neighbor to have one.
   I have serious concerns on how long our local woodlots can handle such
   a burden. Are we heading for the same problems that our forefathers in the
   late 1700's had, when they almost totally depleted their wood supply in the
   Northeast due to such inefficient burning practices??

   Rob

gary <buildersupply@...> wrote:
   Lets hit this from the start Chad is heating with a non epa insert He has
PLENTY of heat output He is burning six cords  a year in Ohio and wants to
know how others burn less.  Money is tight. The windows have been replaced.
Insulation has not been upgraded. To my mind on a budget here's what I would
look at.  Finding a good deal on an EPA stove system.  Stove and chimney go
hand in hand as John keeps reminding us.  Places to look  Used, Ebay. dealer
model change. ETC  I have found that there are GOOD stoves out there being
sold due to change of house ownership, unwillingness to keep the home fires
burning getting older ETC. Think about getting ready for next years heating,
no hurry, the right stove can be found nearby if you keep looking.  Sure you
are going to have to look them over carefully but stoves are still pretty
simple, if they are straight and not getting thin anywhere they are probably
good to burn, the most likely problem might be cat needing replacement?
Anyway in his case a tight efficient stove and possibly adding insulation
where cost effective. (Think attic) Should? get him down to the 4 cord
range.  Heck the payback on blowing the attic to a good depth would be worth
a home loan if needed. Not only lower heat costs but home value is improved.
Lets not forget the benefit to us all of cutting the amount of smoke going
up the chimney.

Maybe one sticking point here is that EPA Cert label.  It just means that
the Manufacturer has spent some engineering time testing his product to use
fuel effiently. It's the like the MPG stickeron a car not perfect but an
easy assurance that the stove burns decently. Are there NON epa stoves out
there that are efficient?  sure but the odds increase if it has the cert.
Stoves aren't the only thing that blow smoke in advertising.  Are 2000 era
cars cleaner and more fuel efficient than 70's cars?  Yup, would they have
gotten that way purely driven by market demand?  Not as fast would be my
bet.  I am not fond of guv regulation but it has it's place.  The market
tends to go for lowest out of pocket cost vs long term benefit.

gggggGary

Another BIG assumption to add to the list. You know what they say
happens when you ASSume things?
Rock




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The difference might be that the town of Rouses Point owned the
electric company just like Plattsburg.  The rate that they charge is
for the electricity and service.  The town does not take a cut.  They
get that from taxes.  If you step 1 foot outside of the town, NYSEG is
the supplier and they make a profit.  The Vermont Supplier may have to
make a profit and pay the investors.  Hence a higher rate.

Sam



--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "kmjoyce" <kmjoyce@...> wrote:
>
> It is interesting that your cheap electricity came from Hydro Quebec,
> because that is what we have in VT--a contract with Hydro Quebec.
> Karen
>

Rob,
   Just to touch on this I am only burning wood from lot clears, tree removal
ect..  I am not cutting trees that would normally not be cut.  I do however
agree with what you are saying..  I have never paid for any of my wood or cut
anything that was not part of trail maintenance on my parents land or other
friends property.  I enjoy the woods and country and do not want to deplete them
to open meadows and fields.

   Gary,
   Here's my concern and noone that I have seen has answered this.  If I have an
EPA Certified insert and an older non EPA Insert side by side identical size
identical chimeny and air intake, does the EPA Certified stove burn the wood
slower?  I'm not a physics person but the wood with the same air intake and
exhuast should burn at the same speed..  I'm not opposed or arguing that an EPA
stove is better for the environment.

   I'm a little slow, but this is my take.  If I upgrade to a smaller EPA
Certified insert compared to my non EPA Insert I should be able to get the same
heat output with a smaller unit.  However a smaller unit would mean it holds
less wood and needs to be refilled more often, (back to my original statment
wood should burn at the same rate regardless of the stove or insert) which in
turn would maybe cut back on a little bit of wood but I just can't see 33% less.

   I'm really not trying to stir the pot, I just don't see it unless the stove
heats the house to say 78 degrees and you let the stove burn out, then 10-12
hours later when the house is 64 degrees you relight the fire and start over
again.

   Thanks,
   Chad



rob r <rob_757@...> wrote:
   I personally get a bit upset when I hear about waste of firewood.
   A neighbor of ours sells Wood Boilers "on-the-side" to supplement
   his income. More & more of the are showing up our area of the countryside.
   One of our Neighbors loves them - "only used 12-15 cords of wood last
winter"!!??
   He is constantly going to-and-fro with loads of wood in the back of his truck
   and in the back of his trailer. He is not the only neighbor to have one.
   I have serious concerns on how long our local woodlots can handle such
   a burden. Are we heading for the same problems that our forefathers in the
   late 1700's had, when they almost totally depleted their wood supply in the
   Northeast due to such inefficient burning practices??

   Rob

gary <buildersupply@...> wrote:
   Lets hit this from the start Chad is heating with a non epa insert He has
PLENTY of heat output He is burning six cords  a year in Ohio and wants to
know how others burn less.  Money is tight. The windows have been replaced.
Insulation has not been upgraded. To my mind on a budget here's what I would
look at.  Finding a good deal on an EPA stove system.  Stove and chimney go
hand in hand as John keeps reminding us.  Places to look  Used, Ebay. dealer
model change. ETC  I have found that there are GOOD stoves out there being
sold due to change of house ownership, unwillingness to keep the home fires
burning getting older ETC. Think about getting ready for next years heating,
no hurry, the right stove can be found nearby if you keep looking.  Sure you
are going to have to look them over carefully but stoves are still pretty
simple, if they are straight and not getting thin anywhere they are probably
good to burn, the most likely problem might be cat needing replacement?
Anyway in his case a tight efficient stove and possibly adding insulation
where cost effective. (Think attic) Should? get him down to the 4 cord
range.  Heck the payback on blowing the attic to a good depth would be worth
a home loan if needed. Not only lower heat costs but home value is improved.
Lets not forget the benefit to us all of cutting the amount of smoke going
up the chimney.

Maybe one sticking point here is that EPA Cert label.  It just means that
the Manufacturer has spent some engineering time testing his product to use
fuel effiently. It's the like the MPG stickeron a car not perfect but an
easy assurance that the stove burns decently. Are there NON epa stoves out
there that are efficient?  sure but the odds increase if it has the cert.
Stoves aren't the only thing that blow smoke in advertising.  Are 2000 era
cars cleaner and more fuel efficient than 70's cars?  Yup, would they have
gotten that way purely driven by market demand?  Not as fast would be my
bet.  I am not fond of guv regulation but it has it's place.  The market
tends to go for lowest out of pocket cost vs long term benefit.

gggggGary

Another BIG assumption to add to the list. You know what they say
happens when you ASSume things?
Rock




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello all,
     I am a lurker for the most part and have only posted once I think. I just
finishe the install of my King woodstove from tractor supply and had my first
fire last night. I am thrilled. I have loved wood fires all my life and now have
one whenever I want. I received much knowledge from this forum and would like to
thank you all.
     I know the King is not a high end stove, but I am on a budget. I got it for
$578 with blower from TS. I bought my thought the attic kit from Lowes for $122
and installed it myself. My pedestal, wall shield, triple wall and black pipe
were another $300 from Lowes. I don't think $1000 total is bad. I paid $30 and
downloaded the NFPA 211 code book off the web and built my corner hearth and
wall shields to their specs. I framed the hearth pad with 2 X 4's then covered
it with Hardy board and tile. I used steel studs on the walls to leave an 1 1/2"
gap then attached hardy board and tile to them leaving a 1" gap at the hearth
pad, it all looks very nice.
     We burned our first fire last night and the only prob was a little smoke
roll out from the stove when you open the door. I am going to install a make up
air vent next to the stove and I realize this may or may not fix the problem.
The damper on the King is a joke. If they had built up the collar a little more
they could have a damper that actually closes.
     I now understand the love affair many of you have with burning wood. Yes, it
was a lot of work hauling cutting and splitting 3 1/2 cords of Ash, but it was
free. Yes, it was a lot of work installing this stove THE RIGHT WAY, but I saved
a lot there too. The work doesn't bother me, after lighting that first fire and
feeling the independance and control it gave it was worth it. Plus the
hypnotizing beauty of dancing flames in my living room was worth it alone. Oh
yeah, flipping the bird to the gas company was fun too! My furnace has not come
on in my well insulated, 1200sf, cozy wood heated home since last night. I need
a ceiling fan in the living room now for sure, gets a little warm in there.

   Ed


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That's pretty funny..  I noticed my last bill (January) was raised about .03 a
KWH compared to the previous Novemeber and December bills.  I was curious about
this and asked a couple of my neighbors and apperently mine was the only one
that went up.  The only difference was there bills averaged $280 - $300.  Mine
have been around $80 - $85 and now up to $98..  I called the power company and
apperently they have a quantity discount, previous years I solely used forced
air electric, this year I've turned my heat on for 8 hours to clean the chimney
one day.

   Chad

jarepp2000 <jrepp@...> wrote:
   You have to keep in mind that most power companies cut the rate per
KWH drastically if you use electric for heating. I am in west michigan
I pay .085 per KWH for normal use and if i were to heat with it the
rate drops to around .06 per KWH.Monte is using elec as his primary
source and uses a lot of it so they drop the price. Also keep in mind
when people brag about their low cost of heating with a ground source
heat pump these lower costs per KWH apply. Personally the damage to
the environment is the same regardless of how it is used and we should
all strive to use less.
   The cheapest juice comes from coal fired plants that spew
radioactive minerals and sulfur in the sky and that is OK because it
is cheap.Nuclear plants are more expensive to run and are not allowed
to release ANY radioactivity period. Like I said use less and we may
have something to pass down to our children.

John in west mi
Tarm solo 140
3400 square foot(six kids)
Did not burn any propane this season
Domestic HW 100% tarm heated.
4 cords this year

--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Berkey" <berkeyscott@...> wrote:
>
> It just blows my mind to here people say they pay $0.05 per kwh.  I pay
> close to $0.15 per kwh here in Vermont.  Even 15 years ago it was
over a
> dime a kwh.  Where does all that cheap juice come from?
>
> Scott
>
>
> >From: monte bloyd <mbloyd@...>
> >Reply-To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> >To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [woodheat] BIG house wood heat
> >Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:36:45 -0600
> >
> >...This is my first experience with electric heat but I'm
> >not enthused so far. It runs about a nickel per KWH here in south
> >central Ne. and I need to pinch those nickels to pay for the place.
> >This has been a warm winter with only one three week stretch of zero
> >degree cold, but next year that could be twenty below.
> >
> >Oh by the way we are on the Platte River and it's waterfowl season with
> >birds everywhere and it's great.
> >
> >Monte
>







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The Insert with the highest efficiency will put out more heat.  If two
stoves are 70% and 50% respectively and both are rated at 20,000 BTU/Hr,
then the more efficient stove will use less wood.  Just like a 90% efficient
NG furnace will use less fuel than a 70% to put out the same BTU.

On 3/1/06, Chad King <timber__wolf@...> wrote:
>
> Rob,
> Just to touch on this I am only burning wood from lot clears, tree removal
> ect..  I am not cutting trees that would normally not be cut.  I do however
> agree with what you are saying..  I have never paid for any of my wood or
> cut anything that was not part of trail maintenance on my parents land or
> other friends property.  I enjoy the woods and country and do not want to
> deplete them to open meadows and fields.
>
> Gary,
> Here's my concern and noone that I have seen has answered this.  If I have
> an EPA Certified insert and an older non EPA Insert side by side identical
> size identical chimeny and air intake, does the EPA Certified stove burn the
> wood slower?  I'm not a physics person but the wood with the same air intake
> and exhuast should burn at the same speed..  I'm not opposed or arguing that
> an EPA stove is better for the environment.
>
> I'm a little slow, but this is my take.  If I upgrade to a smaller EPA
> Certified insert compared to my non EPA Insert I should be able to get the
> same heat output with a smaller unit.  However a smaller unit would mean it
> holds less wood and needs to be refilled more often, (back to my original
> statment wood should burn at the same rate regardless of the stove or
> insert) which in turn would maybe cut back on a little bit of wood but I
> just can't see 33% less.
>
> I'm really not trying to stir the pot, I just don't see it unless the
> stove heats the house to say 78 degrees and you let the stove burn out, then
> 10-12 hours later when the house is 64 degrees you relight the fire and
> start over again.
>
> Thanks,
> Chad
>
>
>
> rob r <rob_757@...> wrote:
> I personally get a bit upset when I hear about waste of firewood.
> A neighbor of ours sells Wood Boilers "on-the-side" to supplement
> his income. More & more of the are showing up our area of the countryside.
> One of our Neighbors loves them - "only used 12-15 cords of wood last
> winter"!!??
> He is constantly going to-and-fro with loads of wood in the back of his
> truck
> and in the back of his trailer. He is not the only neighbor to have one.
> I have serious concerns on how long our local woodlots can handle such
> a burden. Are we heading for the same problems that our forefathers in the
> late 1700's had, when they almost totally depleted their wood supply in
> the
> Northeast due to such inefficient burning practices??
>
> Rob
>
> gary <buildersupply@...> wrote:
> Lets hit this from the start Chad is heating with a non epa insert He has
> PLENTY of heat output He is burning six cords  a year in Ohio and wants to
> know how others burn less.  Money is tight. The windows have been
> replaced.
> Insulation has not been upgraded. To my mind on a budget here's what I
> would
> look at.  Finding a good deal on an EPA stove system.  Stove and chimney
> go
> hand in hand as John keeps reminding us.  Places to look  Used, Ebay.
> dealer
> model change. ETC  I have found that there are GOOD stoves out there being
> sold due to change of house ownership, unwillingness to keep the home
> fires
> burning getting older ETC. Think about getting ready for next years
> heating,
> no hurry, the right stove can be found nearby if you keep looking.  Sure
> you
> are going to have to look them over carefully but stoves are still pretty
> simple, if they are straight and not getting thin anywhere they are
> probably
> good to burn, the most likely problem might be cat needing replacement?
> Anyway in his case a tight efficient stove and possibly adding insulation
> where cost effective. (Think attic) Should? get him down to the 4 cord
> range.  Heck the payback on blowing the attic to a good depth would be
> worth
> a home loan if needed. Not only lower heat costs but home value is
> improved.
> Lets not forget the benefit to us all of cutting the amount of smoke going
> up the chimney.
>
> Maybe one sticking point here is that EPA Cert label.  It just means that
> the Manufacturer has spent some engineering time testing his product to
> use
> fuel effiently. It's the like the MPG stickeron a car not perfect but an
> easy assurance that the stove burns decently. Are there NON epa stoves out
> there that are efficient?  sure but the odds increase if it has the cert.
> Stoves aren't the only thing that blow smoke in advertising.  Are 2000 era
> cars cleaner and more fuel efficient than 70's cars?  Yup, would they have
> gotten that way purely driven by market demand?  Not as fast would be my
> bet.  I am not fond of guv regulation but it has it's place.  The market
> tends to go for lowest out of pocket cost vs long term benefit.
>
> gggggGary
>
> Another BIG assumption to add to the list. You know what they say
> happens when you ASSume things?
> Rock
>
>
>
>
> Check THE woodheat web site at  http://www.woodheat.org
> To receive no more messages email:  woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
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>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The short answer is yes it can burn the wood slower while giving out the
same heat.  The difference is how much of the wood gets turned to heat.  You
can have an EPA stove (with a cat for this arguement) the same size as what
you have. Once it has heated up the cat so that the cat starts burning smoke
you will get the "free" heat from the smoke that would otherwise go up the
chimney That is the advantage for a cat stove You can slow the burn down
enough for a prolonged even heat output instead of a bake and freeze cycle.
AND have a much cleaner exhaust.  Realistically 5 hours of even heat?
   One other heat smoothing "trick" is thermal mass (stone work)  surround
the stove with lots of heavy stuff to absorb heat and it will slowly give it
up long after the stove is out. This will work even with a non EPA stove.
   I agree that Using a EPA stove properly takes some effort and trial and
error.  Are there EPA stoves out there that are hard to use or don't work
right over time?  Probably like any new technology there is a learning curve
and some of the early designs needed to go back to the "drawing board"
Remember how a lot of the early HE gas furnaces rusted out their heat
exchangers?
  I don't feel bad about burning wood but am generally conservative and want
the heat to be used to your best advantage.
I was using a pre EPA Vermont casting stove up till this winter which was a
pretty good stove for pre EPA.  It had a down draft and secondary air intake
to help complete combustion.  It still is no match for the cat burner I am
using now. When I had it in the basement and could run it at fast burn rate
without baking me out of hte house it worked pretty good and smoking was
minimal,  but any attemp to go to a slower burn resulted in a smoky chimney.
the following catalyst blurb is from
http://www.sud-chemie.com/scmcms/web/content.jsp?nodeId=5685
<http://www.sud-chemie.com/scmcms/web/content.jsp?nodeId=5685&lang=en>
&lang=en




High Combustion Efficiency at Low Burn Rates. In the controlled-combustion
(or airtight) stove, control of heat output is gained at the expense of
combustion efficiency, especially during low burn rates. Low burn rate is a
relative value. For this discussion, low burn rate means rates that result
in excessive smoke and poor combustion efficiencies (50% to 70%). To
overcome this problem, draft regulators, secondary combustion chambers, and
baffling have been used to improve combustion efficiencies. But these
methods typically fall short during medium and low burn rates because of
difficulty in maintaining temperature and air/fuel ratio.


   <http://www.sud-chemie.com/scmcms/web/images/space.gif>

Temperature Requirements. Wood gases normally require temperatures in excess
of 1,000°F (500°C) to ignite and burn. The Süd-Chemie Prototech Catalytic
Combustor causes wood gas to burn (oxidize) at temperatures as low as 500°F
(260°C). Even at the lowest usable burn rates these temperatures are common,
so it is now possible to burn wood gases at low burn rates.


   <http://www.sud-chemie.com/scmcms/web/images/space.gif>

   <http://www.sud-chemie.com/scmcms/web/images/space.gif>


Air/Fuel Ratio Requirements. For every conventional combustion process,
there is an optimum air/fuel ratio in which exactly enough air is present to
ensure that 100% of the fuel is burned.


   <http://www.sud-chemie.com/scmcms/web/images/space.gif>

Wood combustion is a complex and variable process. Many wood-gas components
are produced at the same time, each requiring a different amount of air for
the same combustion. The rate of wood-gas released varies constantly. In
addition, regulatory air supply to the fire is difficult because air-inlet
devices are imprecise. The proper air/fuel ration is elusive.


   <http://www.sud-chemie.com/scmcms/web/images/space.gif>

To complicate matters, there are flammability limits-ranges of air/fuel
ratios that the mixture of fuel and air will support combustion if exposed
to a spark or a flame. When concentrations are above or below these limits
"flame-out" can occur.


   <http://www.sud-chemie.com/scmcms/web/images/space.gif>

Since catalytic combustion is a flameless burning process, air/fuel ratios
are much less important, especially at the excess-air end of the range. High
fuel concentrations can be burned until oxygen is depleted. Thus, use of a
catalytic combustor extends the range of wood-combustion conditions.


   <http://www.sud-chemie.com/scmcms/web/images/space.gif>

   <http://www.sud-chemie.com/scmcms/web/images/space.gif>


Higher Heat-Transfer Efficiencies. The catalytic combustor allows higher
heat-transfer efficiency at low burn rates. This is possible for two
reasons. First, a useful by-product of catalytic oxidation is heat. Elevated
exhaust-gas temperatures will enhance the amount of heat transferred by an
appliance to the surroundings. Second, the combustor is the most effective
at low burn rates. When low flow conditions exist, there is more time for
the transfer of heat from hot exhaust gases through the stove.

gggGary


Rob,
   Just to touch on this I am only burning wood from lot clears, tree removal
ect..  I am not cutting trees that would normally not be cut.  I do however
agree with what you are saying..  I have never paid for any of my wood or
cut anything that was not part of trail maintenance on my parents land or
other friends property.  I enjoy the woods and country and do not want to
deplete them to open meadows and fields.

   Gary,
   Here's my concern and noone that I have seen has answered this.  If I have
an EPA Certified insert and an older non EPA Insert side by side identical
size identical chimeny and air intake, does the EPA Certified stove burn the
wood slower?  I'm not a physics person but the wood with the same air intake
and exhuast should burn at the same speed..  I'm not opposed or arguing that
an EPA stove is better for the environment.

   I'm a little slow, but this is my take.  If I upgrade to a smaller EPA
Certified insert compared to my non EPA Insert I should be able to get the
same heat output with a smaller unit.  However a smaller unit would mean it
holds less wood and needs to be refilled more often, (back to my original
statment wood should burn at the same rate regardless of the stove or
insert) which in turn would maybe cut back on a little bit of wood but I
just can't see 33% less.

   I'm really not trying to stir the pot, I just don't see it unless the
stove heats the house to say 78 degrees and you let the stove burn out, then
10-12 hours later when the house is 64 degrees you relight the fire and
start over again.

   Thanks,
   Chad



rob r <rob_757@...> wrote:
   I personally get a bit upset when I hear about waste of firewood.
   A neighbor of ours sells Wood Boilers "on-the-side" to supplement
   his income. More & more of the are showing up our area of the countryside.
   One of our Neighbors loves them - "only used 12-15 cords of wood last
winter"!!??
   He is constantly going to-and-fro with loads of wood in the back of his
truck
   and in the back of his trailer. He is not the only neighbor to have one.
   I have serious concerns on how long our local woodlots can handle such
   a burden. Are we heading for the same problems that our forefathers in the
   late 1700's had, when they almost totally depleted their wood supply in
the
   Northeast due to such inefficient burning practices??

   Rob

gary <buildersupply@...> wrote:
   Lets hit this from the start Chad is heating with a non epa insert He has
PLENTY of heat output He is burning six cords  a year in Ohio and wants to
know how others burn less.  Money is tight. The windows have been replaced.
Insulation has not been upgraded. To my mind on a budget here's what I would
look at.  Finding a good deal on an EPA stove system.  Stove and chimney go
hand in hand as John keeps reminding us.  Places to look  Used, Ebay. dealer
model change. ETC  I have found that there are GOOD stoves out there being
sold due to change of house ownership, unwillingness to keep the home fires
burning getting older ETC. Think about getting ready for next years heating,
no hurry, the right stove can be found nearby if you keep looking.  Sure you
are going to have to look them over carefully but stoves are still pretty
simple, if they are straight and not getting thin anywhere they are probably
good to burn, the most likely problem might be cat needing replacement?
Anyway in his case a tight efficient stove and possibly adding insulation
where cost effective. (Think attic) Should? get him down to the 4 cord
range.  Heck the payback on blowing the attic to a good depth would be worth
a home loan if needed. Not only lower heat costs but home value is improved.
Lets not forget the benefit to us all of cutting the amount of smoke going
up the chimney.

Maybe one sticking point here is that EPA Cert label.  It just means that
the Manufacturer has spent some engineering time testing his product to use
fuel effiently. It's the like the MPG stickeron a car not perfect but an
easy assurance that the stove burns decently. Are there NON epa stoves out
there that are efficient?  sure but the odds increase if it has the cert.
Stoves aren't the only thing that blow smoke in advertising.  Are 2000 era
cars cleaner and more fuel efficient than 70's cars?  Yup, would they have
gotten that way purely driven by market demand?  Not as fast would be my
bet.  I am not fond of guv regulation but it has it's place.  The market
tends to go for lowest out of pocket cost vs long term benefit.

gggggGary

Another BIG assumption to add to the list. You know what they say
happens when you ASSume things?
Rock




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I started messing with this method yesterday and so far so good.
Instead of raking all the coals forward I leave some in back and set
the new log in back on the coals instead of the front.  Crank up the
air until the log catches good and then adjust to keep the coals in
front and log in back lit.

  Repeat as needed.

   I decided to try this since  putting the log up near the airwash was
burning up the log pretty quick and driving the heat output up.  I
wanted to see if setting the log back further wood give me longer and
lower heat output.  Between the new wood and coals I was able to keep a
stable 400 degree stove temp (plenty for last night) for about three
hours.

   Eventually the coal bed reduces and the firebox can be fully loaded.

   I only tried this last night but will keep trying it for a while with
the coal beds.  Up front for more heat, in back for lower heat but
longer burn(I hope).

Gary
Thanks for your reply the other day.  Interestingly enough the unit I
was planning to purchase is the Opel. Also the stove I've been burning
for the last 12 years is a Vermont castings Resolute 1978. One of the
early models with secondary combustion. Not as good as the new EPA
cert. ones but not too bad if burned correctly.
I am curious about how you are using your thermal mass.  Does the
outlet from your Opel go straight into the cavity in the masonry over
the unit and then come out vents at the top?  Sounds like a good idea
but I would be worried it would reduce the draft arout the unit.
I was thinking of running a duct through the cavity but of course I
would get less heat transfer to the masonry, Unless I had some
material around the duct like crushedstone that would help with heat
transfer. Are you happy with the cat unit? After all the negative
comments on this group about cats and the cost of replacement I would
be reluctant to get one. Why would the non cat unit be rated at 2.8
grams/hour and the cat unit @ 3.7 grams/hour?
Thanks Stewart

--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "gary" <buildersupply@...> wrote:
>
> The stove I am using is a fine Canadian product from
> Industrial Chimney Company / RSF Energy
> 400 J.F.Kennedy
> St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
> J7Y 4C7
> Tel: (450) 565-6336     Fax: (450) 565-6519
> http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/fireplaces/foyer_opel.asp
>
>
>  All RSF models come equipped to accept a 4" outside air duct, a 5"
can also
> be used. All models can also be installed to operate using room air.
>
>  The Opel is an EPA certified catalytic appliance certified @ 3.7
grams/hour
> when the optional catalytic combustor (part #FDCCO) is installed. The
> non-catalytic Opel is EPA exempt because of the burn rate, but has been
> certified to by an independent lab to meet EPA standards with a rate
of 2.8
> grams/hour.
>
> I have an older Opel 2000 model.  Overall I am happy with this stove. My
> comments pertain to the older model since I haven't used a new one.
  Take
> the all night burn with a grain of salt.  If the air intake is open
enough
> for a decent (clean) burn figure about 5 hours, although proper coal
raking,
> larger wood sizes, and tight stacking can stretch it.  It is
catalyst and
> this has been my first experience with a cat stove.  I am on my
first year
> of heating with it and no doubt will be smarter next year.  It has a
lower
> fan circulated air intake and front circ air exit.  It also has
provisions
> for 1 or 2 vents on the top that can be run to other rooms or your
furnace
> ducts either with or without duct fans.  I (being me) did it a little
> different in that I built a completely masonry and steel enclosure
with exit
> vents up at the ceiling so the fan driven air exits both directly to the
> room and up into the hollow masonry stack.  This warms the stack
during the
> meat of the fire and the stack slowly returns warm air to the house all
> night. I was very careful to put a layer of masonry board separated by a
> ventilated 1"air space between the heated stack  and any combustible
wall.
>  The only fault with the firebox is that I feel that the doors are
somewhat
> tall and unless you are careful to open them slowly smoke will roll out.
> After a short learning period I have found that the door glass stays
clean
> for weeks at a time.   The stove calls for a 7" class A but my local
sources
> only had 8"so I went with that. It may have cost me a little draft
strength
> but that is only a guess. I have been monitoring the top vent temps
and they
> can blow up to 150F after a hot fire has been going for a while.
With more
> moderate burns they run 110 to 130F and will still be at 90 to 95 in the
> morning. I have  a picture of the unit on the web site.  I am using the
> outside air. So far I'm happy with that decision.  My previous stove
was a
> Vermont Castings Resolute and I think this has been an improvement
for me.
> I do like the finished look of the stone and like to see the flames too.
> Probably the biggest downside is that a stove in the basement
provides more
> even heating through out the house.  But my bedrooms are up half a
floor and
> the heat goes up the hallway to them just fine.  So far the basement
has not
> gotten cold enough to freeze plumbing.  I also have the central heat
> thermostat in the greatroom where the fireplace is located and use the
> cooling setting to turn on the furnace fan the when the greatroom
gets over
> 72 degrees evening out the temps in the house.  I am calling my wood
use by
> the full 4 x 4 x 8' cord and I think most of the others are also.
>
>
>
> Gary Goetz
> S5579 SR 113
> Baraboo WI 53913
>  <mailto:goetz@...> goetz@...
> 608-356-7159
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of stewabbey
> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 5:08 PM
> To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [woodheat] Re: Now: How do you burn less than 2 cords
>
>
> Gary
> I'm curious about your zero clearance fireplace. Very few people in
> the group seem to have EPA fireplaces.  I'm planning on installing an
> EPA cert. one in my new house, also with masonry surrounding it for
> the look and the thermal mass. What type is yours? Are you happy with
> it? and do you find the masonry actually heats up?
> I was wondering if it would heat up because the unit is zero clearance.
>
> BTW I burn 8 face cords (are you guys burning 2 cords talking face
> cords or full cords?) per season and 250 gal oil running the stove
> every evening and when the temp is below about 20F I burn it overnight
> and during the day. My house is 2000sq. ft. 1963 with upgraded
> insulation. In the Montreal area. I find if I use the stove when it is
> warmer than 30F the house gets too warm and the wood is wasted, better
> just to use oil for the little it takes in those temps.
> I don't know how you folks in the warmer regions can burn your stove
> 24/7 without overheating. My stove is sized right for the house
> because it can barely keep up when the outside temp get to -10F and
> -20F, which is only a few days a year.
> Stewart
>
> --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "gary" <buildersupply@> wrote:
> >
> > How big's your house? How well insulated, how good are the windows?
> I am
> > heating 1300' in Wisconsin 100% wood on about 4 cords using an
> airtight zero
> > clearance fireplace.  I built about 1/2 ton of masonary around it
which
> > helps me hold heat. I am firing as needed since I am around the
> house. At
> > night on a cold night i feed at 10 pm and 2-3 AM house is still at
> 68 at 6
> > AM when I send my wife off to work. Fire will be down to coals but the
> > outlet air temp high in the fireplace is still above 90F.  I have an
> outside
> > combustion air inlet and I would like to be able to have that shut
down
> > after the fire dies because I think it really cools the stove fast
> when the
> > fire is near out. That is the part of a thermostatic air controll I
> don't
> > like, it goes to wide open after the  fire dies, which I feel
> encourages air
> > circulation up the chimney till the whole thing is cold..
> >
> >
> > Gary WI
> >
> > I'm curious how you guys get away with less than 2 cords a year.
> I've had a
> > very mild winter here in OH, but I'm still going through about 6
cords,
> > burning 24 / 7.  Is it that you don't always burn or ???..  I'm
> thinking 8
> > cords for a hard winter November - March.  Maybe my stove is just
> not that
> > efficient.  It's an older insert non EPA, it is loaded maybe 4 to 5
> times a
> > day.  It is large so it takes about 8 or 9 logs to fill it (4"x18"
> logs).
> > Am I doing something wrong?
> >
> >   Thanks!
> >   Chad
> >
> >
> >
> > samiamrd <taborl@> wrote:
> >   Your wood usage is about on par with mine here in NY.  Last year I
> > had 1.5 cords and ran out on March 15.  The wood supplementation at
> > night and weekends wiped out 43% of my NG usage.  After last year, I
> > uppped my collection to 2.5 cords with an expected .5 cords
> > remaining.  This year was not a normal year for our location.  We
> > had 20 days in January at or above 50 degrees.  Wood consumption is
> > down because I dont run the stove until it hits 40 degrees.  This
> > year with the upgrade of the main NG condensing furnace with
> > varriable burn and infinite drive fan system, we were able to drop
> > the ng usage to about 30% of the original usage with an average
> > house temp increase of 4 degrees(avg 72).  Not bad.
> >
> > As for movement of wood, I end up placing all of the wood in the
> > trunk and back seat of the 95 saturn(the old car).  A trailer would
> > be nice and I think that if we had the right car, it would make a
> > good addition.  The movement of the wood around the property is done
> > with a standard large wheel barrow.  The one wheel does create a
> > challange when it is stacked high.  The next thing that I will get
> > is the Sam's metal 4 wheel garden cart or the two wheel garden cart
> > (build yourself model).  That would increase the amount than can be
> > made with one trip.  One wheel barrow will go for 4 days in the
> > Avalon renier insert.
> >
> > The electricity usage is down but it could be less if I had a free
> > standing wood stove.  Having an insert almost dictates that you need
> > the fan to get the heat away from the fireplace.  Not the best
> > situation but still one that is much better than full central
> > furnace and you can really raise bread on the hearth.
> >
> > Sam
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "eringer2000_53188"
> > <albogrease@> wrote:
> > >
> > > After my first couple months burning wood in earnest, I am
> > pondering
> > > getting some sort of wheeled cart to bring the wood in from my
> > stack
> > > in the attached garage. Multiple loads with the canvas sling each
> > > day is getting rather old! On weekends I'm making maybe 4 trips
> > each
> > > day, about 6-7 pieces each trip. Feels like 40-50 pounds each time!
> > >
> > > Have been thinking about buying a trailer & you folks give me more
> > > reasons to do so! We live very near the Kettle Moraine state park
> > > here in Wisconsin & theres lots of fallen wood I can see from my
> > car
> > > on the drive home from work. Can't imagine how much there must be
> > > lieing around the actual forest! I'll be enquiring about buying a
> > > permit from the DNR this spring.
> > >
> > > I was involved in the maul discussion. I'm getting quite
> > profecient
> > > at splitting, well over 50% of my strikes split the target wood
> > now!
> > > Its a great feeling when that wood splits clean down the middle. I
> > > also learned not to push it when the wood won't split, I just set
> > > those pieces aside for overnight burn & go on to the next. Haven't
> > > been wasting anything either!  I pick up the scraps & shards of
> > wood
> > > to use as kinding to start my fires during the week.
> > >
> > > My first 2 energy bills have been drastically lower, last month it
> > > was $114 for a 2400 sq foot house! We're using aboiut 25% of the
> > gas
> > > we did same time last year & even the electricity usage is down
> > > around 10%!!!! Well within my target of reducing our usage by
> > 33%.
> > > Running low on wood now,only had about 1 1/2 cords at the start of
> > > the year. Will have to get in at least 2 cords next season & think
> > I
> > > can manage that from local wood fall, it just takes some effort on
> > > my part. i actually enjoy getting out there in the cold &
> > splitting
> > > & moving wood from the main pile to my staging rack in the garage!
> > > Put the radio on & listen to my favorite R&R oldies station!
> > >
> > > Love my Lopi Freedom insert, it works great. The tips on sucessful
> > > burning have been very helpful. Over the past 2 months I have
> > > learned how to get a good fire started, how to max the fire out to
> > > get the fan blowing, how to maximize an overnite burn etc.
> > >
> > > This mailing list has been so helpful. Also the woodheat.org
> > > website. Thanks to everyone for all the helpful hints & advice,
> > both
> > > directly from e-mails & on this list. It feels real good to open
> > > those energy bills now & know I have some control & not big
> > > energy!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The Greatest Rock & Roll of the Twentieth Century!!!
> > >
> > > http://www.live365.com/stations/albo60s
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, Keith McHugh <keithmchugh@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Gary,
> > > > Great idea's on splitting wood! Wow - that is the hardcore
> > method
> > > for
> > > > splitting wood!  How much wood do you split a year??  I use a
> > > homemade
> > > > wood splitter - but I still have the problems of bending over
> > > lifting
> > > > the wood.  I wear a back support for heavy lifting - that seems
> > to
> > > help
> > > > during splitting and moving wood - especially when lifting heavy
> > > pieces.
> > > >
> > > > When I split wood - I try to back a trailer with my tractor
> > right
> > > next
> > > > to the wood splitter - as soon as the wood is split - I throw it
> > > on the
> > > > trailer to be moved over to the wood pile - this way I do not
> > have
> > > to
> > > > pick the wood up again - it is at waist level on the trailer -
> > > makes it
> > > > easier to grab the wood - I can put 1 cord of wood on the
> > trailer
> > > in a
> > > > pile - it is a pretty big trailer.  I have tried to streamline
> > the
> > > > process - but I think that no matter what method you use - you
> > are
> > > > always bending over picking up the wood.
> > > >
> > > > How do you haul your wood??  I use a "Wood Chuck" dolly that has
> > > 20"
> > > > tires on it.  I can stack about 200 - 300lbs of wood on the
> > > dolly.  I
> > > > can easily roll it from my 5-6 cord wood stack upto my house -
> > > > approximately a 75 feet.  Then go down 6 stairs (which is not to
> > > bad to
> > > > navigate) with it into the basement where my woodstove is.  I
> > keep
> > > the
> > > > wood about 6 feet away from the stove.  I usually get a load per
> > > day if
> > > > it is really cold or snowing out.  If we have a nor easter
> > winter
> > > storm
> > > > I bring a few loads in to handle the storm.
> > > >
> > > > For my fireplace - I have a small wood stack ( last about 4
> > days)
> > > right
> > > > outside my front door - so I just use the tractor with the front
> > > end
> > > > loader to get the wood to that stack  - I always use tractor
> > > hydraulics
> > > > when I can in moving the wood - try to save the back.  But I
> > still
> > > have
> > > > to bend over to pickup the wood from the bottom of the wood
> > stack
> > > to put
> > > > it in the front end loader.   I hear your concerns on bending
> > over
> > > to
> > > > move wood.
> > > >
> > > > I guess I was looking to get the best ideas on hauling, moving,
> > > and
> > > > storing your wood.
> > > >
> > > > Keith
> > > >
> > > > For my fireplace - I have a wood thormole2004 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > A while back there was quite a discussion by those of us who
> > > split
> > > > > wood with a maul. I've been heating solely with wood for 24
> > > years,
> > > > > cutting, hauling, and splitting what I've needed from my land.
> > A
> > > > > chainsaw, wheelbarrow, and maul are my main tools. As I've
> > gotten
> > > > > older the constant bending to pick up split wood was getting
> > to
> > > my
> > > > > back. I found a way to utlilze some old tires which does make
> > > the job
> > > > > a bit easier.
> > > > >   My splitting block is a 16" diameter round 20" high piece of
> > > knot
> > > > > filled beech placed on the ground to split on. I've stacked
> > four
> > > old
> > > > > car tires on top of each other around the splitting block so
> > the
> > > > > tires come up about a foot above the splitting block. The wood
> > > to be
> > > > > split sits on the block surrounded by the tires. After the
> > wood
> > > is
> > > > > struck, the tires keep the split pieces of wood on the block
> > and
> > > high
> > > > > enough to reach without bending over. They also work to lean
> > > uneven
> > > > > wood against and help to catch any stray maul strikes,
> > > preventing the
> > > > > maul head from coming close to feet and legs. In order to keep
> > > the
> > > > > tires in place during splitting I tie three legnths of rope
> > > aound all
> > > > > four tires. It saves a lot of bending and actually makes the
> > > jobs a
> > > > > lot faster.
> > > > >   This may be a common form of splitting, but I haven't seen it
> > > > > discussed, so thought I'd offer it up. I enjoy the site and am
> > > always
> > > > > finding something to learn.
> > > > > Gary
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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I too am amazed at montes claim of 5 cents/kwh. In Quebec about 80 %
of our power comes from hydro and I thought our rates were the
cheapest at 6.3 cents/kwh. It is currently the cheapest form of
conventional heat (not counting wood and pellets).
Stewart

--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Berkey" <berkeyscott@...> wrote:
>
> It just blows my mind to here people say they pay $0.05 per kwh.  I pay
> close to $0.15 per kwh here in Vermont.  Even 15 years ago it was
over a
> dime a kwh.  Where does all that cheap juice come from?
>
> Scott
>
>
> >From: monte bloyd <mbloyd@...>
> >Reply-To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> >To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [woodheat] BIG house wood heat
> >Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:36:45 -0600
> >
> >...This is my first experience with electric heat but I'm
> >not enthused so far. It runs about a nickel per KWH here in south
> >central Ne. and I need to pinch those nickels to pay for the place.
> >This has been a warm winter with only one three week stretch of zero
> >degree cold, but next year that could be twenty below.
> >
> >Oh by the way we are on the Platte River and it's waterfowl season with
> >birds everywhere and it's great.
> >
> >Monte
>

I guess I'm impressed that we have cheap electricity out here. But that
is what the last bill figured out at.  I still would like some input if
anyone is using a Greenwood or Tarm system. They seem to burn the least
wood for the heat. I really think I like the idea of heat storage
tanks.
Monte
On Mar 1, 2006, at 4:49 PM, stewabbey wrote:

> I too am amazed at montes claim of 5 cents/kwh. In Quebec about 80 %
>  of our power comes from hydro and I thought our rates were the
>  cheapest at 6.3 cents/kwh. It is currently the cheapest form of
>  conventional heat (not counting wood and pellets).
>  Stewart
>
>  --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Berkey" <berkeyscott@...>
> wrote:
>  >
>  > It just blows my mind to here people say they pay $0.05 per kwh.  I
> pay
>  > close to $0.15 per kwh here in Vermont.  Even 15 years ago it was
>  over a
>  > dime a kwh.  Where does all that cheap juice come from?
>  >
>  > Scott
>  >
>  >
>  > >From: monte bloyd <mbloyd@...>
>  > >Reply-To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
>  > >To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
>  > >Subject: Re: [woodheat] BIG house wood heat
>  > >Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:36:45 -0600
>  > >
>  > >...This is my first experience with electric heat but I'm
>  > >not enthused so far. It runs about a nickel per KWH here in south
>  > >central Ne. and I need to pinch those nickels to pay for the place.
>  > >This has been a warm winter with only one three week stretch of
> zero
>  > >degree cold, but next year that could be twenty below.
>  > >
>  > >Oh by the way we are on the Platte River and it's waterfowl season
> with
>  > >birds everywhere and it's great.
>  > >
>  > >Monte
>  >
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Doesn't surprise me.  I've heard that 5 out of 4 people have trouble with math.
     Jeff

agoldink <agoldink@...> wrote:          > > If you are not using an EPA
certified wood stove, your using 50%
   > more
   > > wood than you need to use.
   Above is what he said, (cut and pasted) you are dropping the number
   to 33 1/3%, still a large number.
   I don't track my wood usage much, had a stove with a cat in it that
   never worked right (until I took it out). Just keep tossing wood into
   the fire box, till spring gets here
   Rock
     In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Meszko William-Q10191" <q10191@...>
   wrote:
   >
   > agoldink,
   >
   > Actually, what Sam said was that you would use 50% more wood, which
   at
   > face value means that your wood consumption with an EPA stove would
   drop to 2/3 what it is
   > presently.
   > Some mfgs report cat stove efficiencies of 75% when moderately
   fired. I can believe that a non-EPA stove, fired fairly hard so as
   not to tar the chimney, might see a 50% efficiency. I know that my
   cat stove burns wood significantly faster (as much as 2x) if I forget
   and leave the bypass open.
   >
   > Bill Meszko
   > Fort Worth
   >
   > -----Original Message-----
   > From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com]On
   > Behalf Of agoldink
   > Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 4:14 PM
   > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
   > Subject: [woodheat] Re: Most Effective Way to Haul/Movel Wood --->
   Now:
   > How do you bur...
   >
   >
   > 50% less wood is a very large number, I would have to see that to
   > believe it.
   > Rock
   > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "samiamrd" <taborl@> wrote:
   > >
   > > The other posters hit it right on the head.  Heating is a
   > combination
   > > of original combustion efficiency, insulation level, and air leak
   > > control.
   > >

   > >
   > > If you have a 1950's era house, you probably have low insulation
   > > levels
   > > of R7walls/R11 ceiling standard.  Those need to be increased. In
   > the
   > > house that I have, I have been making renovations that include
   > > increasing the wall insualation from R7 to R15 and adding a vapor
   > > barrier.  The ceiling has changed from R11 to R 44 with vapor
   > > barrier.
   > > When I replace the siding, I am adding 1 inch of foam shielding
   > (poly
   > > isocyanate).  The walls are raised to R21.  The windows are being
   > > changed from single pane to insulated thermo pane.  The exterior
   > > doors
   > > are being changed and when I cant increase the wall thickness, I
   > have
   > > been adding spray foam in the 2x4 stud cavities(R 21).  Slowly
   the
   > > house is being changed from one that I could feel the wind blow
   > > through
   > > to a better air sealed structure.  These changes have made our
   EPA
   > > certified fireplace insert perform better wyth only a 52 inch fan
   > > circulating in the LR/DR room.  This is happening even with all
   of
   > > the walls of my ranch house.    I am not completely
   > > replacing NG usage, but with the right house design and
   insulation
   > > level, I could have.  I still have 33% of the house's exterior
   > walls
   > > to
   > > upgrade.
   > >
   > > Lets face it, 8-10 cords is a lot of wood to burn.  I thought
   that
   > 4
   > > cords should be about standard for the average house.  But that
   can
   > > be
   > > reduced if the house design is right, the insulation is high and
   > the
   > > air leaks are reduced.  Unfortunately, not many people have the
   > > perfect
   > > house to start with.
   > >
   > > Sam
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, Jumpnkd@ wrote:
   > > >
   > > > I also burn 24/7 and have had the stove burning from nov as it
   is
   > > my
   > > only
   > > > heat that i like to use have elect but it is turned way down,
   and
   > I
   > > load 4-5
   > > > times a day when im here. my stove is an old pyramid it works
   > well,
   > > im sure a
   > > > epa stove would reduce the amount of wood im useing.
   > > >     Bill VA
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   > > >
   > >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > Check THE woodheat web site at  http://www.woodheat.org
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   unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes I opened up both the 8 " round duct openings in the top of the box.  I
also have the front grille open. So if anything there is less restriction to
air flow.  The chimney is 8"class A right from the box up to the cathedral
ceiling and out the roof. I had to use 2 15 Degree els to miss a  roof
valley.  I haven't drilled for a draft gauge but may do that one of these
days.
It's funny my resolute is the old style also, a 79 from the casting.  It was
an easy to use stove when it was on a class A straight up but was a little
fussier on a 6" tile lined chimney with a 4 foot horizontal flue. I just
sold it to a buddy cause his wood boiler sprung a leak and it's going to
take him a bit to get it back in action.
Send me your mail off list and I'll send you some construction pictures of
the fireplace if you want.  goetz@...


Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of stewabbey
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 4:39 PM
To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [woodheat] Re: zero clearance



Gary
Thanks for your reply the other day.  Interestingly enough the unit I
was planning to purchase is the Opel. Also the stove I've been burning
for the last 12 years is a Vermont castings Resolute 1978. One of the
early models with secondary combustion. Not as good as the new EPA
cert. ones but not too bad if burned correctly.
I am curious about how you are using your thermal mass.  Does the
outlet from your Opel go straight into the cavity in the masonry over
the unit and then come out vents at the top?  Sounds like a good idea
but I would be worried it would reduce the draft arout the unit.
I was thinking of running a duct through the cavity but of course I
would get less heat transfer to the masonry, Unless I had some
material around the duct like crushedstone that would help with heat
transfer. Are you happy with the cat unit? After all the negative
comments on this group about cats and the cost of replacement I would
be reluctant to get one. Why would the non cat unit be rated at 2.8
grams/hour and the cat unit @ 3.7 grams/hour?
Thanks Stewart

--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "gary" <buildersupply@...> wrote:
>
> The stove I am using is a fine Canadian product from
> Industrial Chimney Company / RSF Energy
> 400 J.F.Kennedy
> St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
> J7Y 4C7
> Tel: (450) 565-6336     Fax: (450) 565-6519
> http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/fireplaces/foyer_opel.asp
>
>
>  All RSF models come equipped to accept a 4" outside air duct, a 5"
can also
> be used. All models can also be installed to operate using room air.
>
>  The Opel is an EPA certified catalytic appliance certified @ 3.7
grams/hour
> when the optional catalytic combustor (part #FDCCO) is installed. The
> non-catalytic Opel is EPA exempt because of the burn rate, but has been
> certified to by an independent lab to meet EPA standards with a rate
of 2.8
> grams/hour.
>
> I have an older Opel 2000 model.  Overall I am happy with this stove. My
> comments pertain to the older model since I haven't used a new one.
Take
> the all night burn with a grain of salt.  If the air intake is open
enough
> for a decent (clean) burn figure about 5 hours, although proper coal
raking,
> larger wood sizes, and tight stacking can stretch it.  It is
catalyst and
> this has been my first experience with a cat stove.  I am on my
first year
> of heating with it and no doubt will be smarter next year.  It has a
lower
> fan circulated air intake and front circ air exit.  It also has
provisions
> for 1 or 2 vents on the top that can be run to other rooms or your
furnace
> ducts either with or without duct fans.  I (being me) did it a little
> different in that I built a completely masonry and steel enclosure
with exit
> vents up at the ceiling so the fan driven air exits both directly to the
> room and up into the hollow masonry stack.  This warms the stack
during the
> meat of the fire and the stack slowly returns warm air to the house all
> night. I was very careful to put a layer of masonry board separated by a
> ventilated 1"air space between the heated stack  and any combustible
wall.
>  The only fault with the firebox is that I feel that the doors are
somewhat
> tall and unless you are careful to open them slowly smoke will roll out.
> After a short learning period I have found that the door glass stays
clean
> for weeks at a time.   The stove calls for a 7" class A but my local
sources
> only had 8"so I went with that. It may have cost me a little draft
strength
> but that is only a guess. I have been monitoring the top vent temps
and they
> can blow up to 150F after a hot fire has been going for a while.
With more
> moderate burns they run 110 to 130F and will still be at 90 to 95 in the
> morning. I have  a picture of the unit on the web site.  I am using the
> outside air. So far I'm happy with that decision.  My previous stove
was a
> Vermont Castings Resolute and I think this has been an improvement
for me.
> I do like the finished look of the stone and like to see the flames too.
> Probably the biggest downside is that a stove in the basement
provides more
> even heating through out the house.  But my bedrooms are up half a
floor and
> the heat goes up the hallway to them just fine.  So far the basement
has not
> gotten cold enough to freeze plumbing.  I also have the central heat
> thermostat in the greatroom where the fireplace is located and use the
> cooling setting to turn on the furnace fan the when the greatroom
gets over
> 72 degrees evening out the temps in the house.  I am calling my wood
use by
> the full 4 x 4 x 8' cord and I think most of the others are also.
>
>
>
> Gary Goetz
> S5579 SR 113
> Baraboo WI 53913
>  <mailto:goetz@...> goetz@...
> 608-356-7159
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of stewabbey
> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 5:08 PM
> To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [woodheat] Re: Now: How do you burn less than 2 cords
>
>
> Gary
> I'm curious about your zero clearance fireplace. Very few people in
> the group seem to have EPA fireplaces.  I'm planning on installing an
> EPA cert. one in my new house, also with masonry surrounding it for
> the look and the thermal mass. What type is yours? Are you happy with
> it? and do you find the masonry actually heats up?
> I was wondering if it would heat up because the unit is zero clearance.
>
> BTW I burn 8 face cords (are you guys burning 2 cords talking face
> cords or full cords?) per season and 250 gal oil running the stove
> every evening and when the temp is below about 20F I burn it overnight
> and during the day. My house is 2000sq. ft. 1963 with upgraded
> insulation. In the Montreal area. I find if I use the stove when it is
> warmer than 30F the house gets too warm and the wood is wasted, better
> just to use oil for the little it takes in those temps.
> I don't know how you folks in the warmer regions can burn your stove
> 24/7 without overheating. My stove is sized right for the house
> because it can barely keep up when the outside temp get to -10F and
> -20F, which is only a few days a year.
> Stewart
>
> --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "gary" <buildersupply@> wrote:
> >
> > How big's your house? How well insulated, how good are the windows?
> I am
> > heating 1300' in Wisconsin 100% wood on about 4 cords using an
> airtight zero
> > clearance fireplace.  I built about 1/2 ton of masonary around it
which
> > helps me hold heat. I am firing as needed since I am around the
> house. At
> > night on a cold night i feed at 10 pm and 2-3 AM house is still at
> 68 at 6
> > AM when I send my wife off to work. Fire will be down to coals but the
> > outlet air temp high in the fireplace is still above 90F.  I have an
> outside
> > combustion air inlet and I would like to be able to have that shut
down
> > after the fire dies because I think it really cools the stove fast
> when the
> > fire is near out. That is the part of a thermostatic air controll I
> don't
> > like, it goes to wide open after the  fire dies, which I feel
> encourages air
> > circulation up the chimney till the whole thing is cold..
> >
> >
> > Gary WI
> >
> > I'm curious how you guys get away with less than 2 cords a year.
> I've had a
> > very mild winter here in OH, but I'm still going through about 6
cords,
> > burning 24 / 7.  Is it that you don't always burn or ???..  I'm
> thinking 8
> > cords for a hard winter November - March.  Maybe my stove is just
> not that
> > efficient.  It's an older insert non EPA, it is loaded maybe 4 to 5
> times a
> > day.  It is large so it takes about 8 or 9 logs to fill it (4"x18"
> logs).
> > Am I doing something wrong?
> >
> >   Thanks!
> >   Chad
> >
> >
> >
> > samiamrd <taborl@> wrote:
> >   Your wood usage is about on par with mine here in NY.  Last year I
> > had 1.5 cords and ran out on March 15.  The wood supplementation at
> > night and weekends wiped out 43% of my NG usage.  After last year, I
> > uppped my collection to 2.5 cords with an expected .5 cords
> > remaining.  This year was not a normal year for our location.  We
> > had 20 days in January at or above 50 degrees.  Wood consumption is
> > down because I dont run the stove until it hits 40 degrees.  This
> > year with the upgrade of the main NG condensing furnace with
> > varriable burn and infinite drive fan system, we were able to drop
> > the ng usage to about 30% of the original usage with an average
> > house temp increase of 4 degrees(avg 72).  Not bad.
> >
> > As for movement of wood, I end up placing all of the wood in the
> > trunk and back seat of the 95 saturn(the old car).  A trailer would
> > be nice and I think that if we had the right car, it would make a
> > good addition.  The movement of the wood around the property is done
> > with a standard large wheel barrow.  The one wheel does create a
> > challange when it is stacked high.  The next thing that I will get
> > is the Sam's metal 4 wheel garden cart or the two wheel garden cart
> > (build yourself model).  That would increase the amount than can be
> > made with one trip.  One wheel barrow will go for 4 days in the
> > Avalon renier insert.
> >
> > The electricity usage is down but it could be less if I had a free
> > standing wood stove.  Having an insert almost dictates that you need
> > the fan to get the heat away from the fireplace.  Not the best
> > situation but still one that is much better than full central
> > furnace and you can really raise bread on the hearth.
> >
> > Sam
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "eringer2000_53188"
> > <albogrease@> wrote:
> > >
> > > After my first couple months burning wood in earnest, I am
> > pondering
> > > getting some sort of wheeled cart to bring the wood in from my
> > stack
> > > in the attached garage. Multiple loads with the canvas sling each
> > > day is getting rather old! On weekends I'm making maybe 4 trips
> > each
> > > day, about 6-7 pieces each trip. Feels like 40-50 pounds each time!
> > >
> > > Have been thinking about buying a trailer & you folks give me more
> > > reasons to do so! We live very near the Kettle Moraine state park
> > > here in Wisconsin & theres lots of fallen wood I can see from my
> > car
> > > on the drive home from work. Can't imagine how much there must be
> > > lieing around the actual forest! I'll be enquiring about buying a
> > > permit from the DNR this spring.
> > >
> > > I was involved in the maul discussion. I'm getting quite
> > profecient
> > > at splitting, well over 50% of my strikes split the target wood
> > now!
> > > Its a great feeling when that wood splits clean down the middle. I
> > > also learned not to push it when the wood won't split, I just set
> > > those pieces aside for overnight burn & go on to the next. Haven't
> > > been wasting anything either!  I pick up the scraps & shards of
> > wood
> > > to use as kinding to start my fires during the week.
> > >
> > > My first 2 energy bills have been drastically lower, last month it
> > > was $114 for a 2400 sq foot house! We're using aboiut 25% of the
> > gas
> > > we did same time last year & even the electricity usage is down
> > > around 10%!!!! Well within my target of reducing our usage by
> > 33%.
> > > Running low on wood now,only had about 1 1/2 cords at the start of
> > > the year. Will have to get in at least 2 cords next season & think
> > I
> > > can manage that from local wood fall, it just takes some effort on
> > > my part. i actually enjoy getting out there in the cold &
> > splitting
> > > & moving wood from the main pile to my staging rack in the garage!
> > > Put the radio on & listen to my favorite R&R oldies station!
> > >
> > > Love my Lopi Freedom insert, it works great. The tips on sucessful
> > > burning have been very helpful. Over the past 2 months I have
> > > learned how to get a good fire started, how to max the fire out to
> > > get the fan blowing, how to maximize an overnite burn etc.
> > >
> > > This mailing list has been so helpful. Also the woodheat.org
> > > website. Thanks to everyone for all the helpful hints & advice,
> > both
> > > directly from e-mails & on this list. It feels real good to open
> > > those energy bills now & know I have some control & not big
> > > energy!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The Greatest Rock & Roll of the Twentieth Century!!!
> > >
> > > http://www.live365.com/stations/albo60s
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, Keith McHugh <keithmchugh@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Gary,
> > > > Great idea's on splitting wood! Wow - that is the hardcore
> > method
> > > for
> > > > splitting wood!  How much wood do you split a year??  I use a
> > > homemade
> > > > wood splitter - but I still have the problems of bending over
> > > lifting
> > > > the wood.  I wear a back support for heavy lifting - that seems
> > to
> > > help
> > > > during splitting and moving wood - especially when lifting heavy
> > > pieces.
> > > >
> > > > When I split wood - I try to back a trailer with my tractor
> > right
> > > next
> > > > to the wood splitter - as soon as the wood is split - I throw it
> > > on the
> > > > trailer to be moved over to the wood pile - this way I do not
> > have
> > > to
> > > > pick the wood up again - it is at waist level on the trailer -
> > > makes it
> > > > easier to grab the wood - I can put 1 cord of wood on the
> > trailer
> > > in a
> > > > pile - it is a pretty big trailer.  I have tried to streamline
> > the
> > > > process - but I think that no matter what method you use - you
> > are
> > > > always bending over picking up the wood.
> > > >
> > > > How do you haul your wood??  I use a "Wood Chuck" dolly that has
> > > 20"
> > > > tires on it.  I can stack about 200 - 300lbs of wood on the
> > > dolly.  I
> > > > can easily roll it from my 5-6 cord wood stack upto my house -
> > > > approximately a 75 feet.  Then go down 6 stairs (which is not to
> > > bad to
> > > > navigate) with it into the basement where my woodstove is.  I
> > keep
> > > the
> > > > wood about 6 feet away from the stove.  I usually get a load per
> > > day if
> > > > it is really cold or snowing out.  If we have a nor easter
> > winter
> > > storm
> > > > I bring a few loads in to handle the storm.
> > > >
> > > > For my fireplace - I have a small wood stack ( last about 4
> > days)
> > > right
> > > > outside my front door - so I just use the tractor with the front
> > > end
> > > > loader to get the wood to that stack  - I always use tractor
> > > hydraulics
> > > > when I can in moving the wood - try to save the back.  But I
> > still
> > > have
> > > > to bend over to pickup the wood from the bottom of the wood
> > stack
> > > to put
> > > > it in the front end loader.   I hear your concerns on bending
> > over
> > > to
> > > > move wood.
> > > >
> > > > I guess I was looking to get the best ideas on hauling, moving,
> > > and
> > > > storing your wood.
> > > >
> > > > Keith
> > > >
> > > > For my fireplace - I have a wood thormole2004 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > A while back there was quite a discussion by those of us who
> > > split
> > > > > wood with a maul. I've been heating solely with wood for 24
> > > years,
> > > > > cutting, hauling, and splitting what I've needed from my land.
> > A
> > > > > chainsaw, wheelbarrow, and maul are my main tools. As I've
> > gotten
> > > > > older the constant bending to pick up split wood was getting
> > to
> > > my
> > > > > back. I found a way to utlilze some old tires which does make
> > > the job
> > > > > a bit easier.
> > > > >   My splitting block is a 16" diameter round 20" high piece of
> > > knot
> > > > > filled beech placed on the ground to split on. I've stacked
> > four
> > > old
> > > > > car tires on top of each other around the splitting block so
> > the
> > > > > tires come up about a foot above the splitting block. The wood
> > > to be
> > > > > split sits on the block surrounded by the tires. After the
> > wood
> > > is
> > > > > struck, the tires keep the split pieces of wood on the block
> > and
> > > high
> > > > > enough to reach without bending over. They also work to lean
> > > uneven
> > > > > wood against and help to catch any stray maul strikes,
> > > preventing the
> > > > > maul head from coming close to feet and legs. In order to keep
> > > the
> > > > > tires in place during splitting I tie three legnths of rope
> > > aound all
> > > > > four tires. It saves a lot of bending and actually makes the
> > > jobs a
> > > > > lot faster.
> > > > >   This may be a common form of splitting, but I haven't seen it
> > > > > discussed, so thought I'd offer it up. I enjoy the site and am
> > > always
> > > > > finding something to learn.
> > > > > Gary
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Check THE woodheat web site at  http://www.woodheat.org
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> > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ps the catalytic stove ratings are reduced to reflect an average over the
life (and death) of the cat.  My use of this stove has been limited, I just
installed it this winter.  Nice to work inside near a wood stove in
December.  I bought the stove used out of an ad in the paper.  New house
owners wanted nothing to do with burning wood and wanted it to go to a good
home. It is better than ten years old but the fire box was in great shape
and by watching the chimney it appears the cats are working good. I have no
way of knowing if they had been replaced previously.  I have not put in a
probe to check the cat temp but will watch ebay for a good price on one.  I
did see a discussion about premature cat failure due to flame inpingement in
Opels but so far I have not had that problem.  Probably people overstuffing
it to get that promised long burn.  The large size of the doors and lack of
a top latch does tend to make a consistant tight seal hard to acheive.  As
long as the box isn't stuffed That isn't an issue.  I had one night wqhne a
full box of some especially dry wood got her really going.  My high vents
got pretty warm but it burned down uneventfully.  My couch is close to the
fireplace so night feeding is pretty easy! Stoke it, snooze on the couch for
a few minutes, reduce the air and back to bed.


Gary  Are you happy with the cat unit? After all the negative
comments on this group about cats and the cost of replacement I would
be reluctant to get one. Why would the non cat unit be rated at 2.8
grams/hour and the cat unit @ 3.7 grams/hour?
Thanks Stewart

--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "gary" <buildersupply@...> wrote:
>
> The stove I am using is a fine Canadian product from
> Industrial Chimney Company / RSF Energy
> 400 J.F.Kennedy
> St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
> J7Y 4C7
> Tel: (450) 565-6336     Fax: (450) 565-6519
> http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/fireplaces/foyer_opel.asp
>
>
>  All RSF models come equipped to accept a 4" outside air duct, a 5"
can also
> be used. All models can also be installed to operate using room air.
>
>  The Opel is an EPA certified catalytic appliance certified @ 3.7
grams/hour
> when the optional catalytic combustor (part #FDCCO) is installed. The
> non-catalytic Opel is EPA exempt because of the burn rate, but has been
> certified to by an independent lab to meet EPA standards with a rate
of 2.8
> grams/hour.
>
> I have an older Opel 2000 model.  Overall I am happy with this stove. My
> comments pertain to the older model since I haven't used a new one.
Take
> the all night burn with a grain of salt.  If the air intake is open
enough
> for a decent (clean) burn figure about 5 hours, although proper coal
raking,
> larger wood sizes, and tight stacking can stretch it.  It is
catalyst and
> this has been my first experience with a cat stove.  I am on my
first year
> of heating with it and no doubt will be smarter next year.  It has a
lower
> fan circulated air intake and front circ air exit.  It also has
provisions
> for 1 or 2 vents on the top that can be run to other rooms or your
furnace
> ducts either with or without duct fans.  I (being me) did it a little
> different in that I built a completely masonry and steel enclosure
with exit
> vents up at the ceiling so the fan driven air exits both directly to the
> room and up into the hollow masonry stack.  This warms the stack
during the
> meat of the fire and the stack slowly returns warm air to the house all
> night. I was very careful to put a layer of masonry board separated by a
> ventilated 1"air space between the heated stack  and any combustible
wall.
>  The only fault with the firebox is that I feel that the doors are
somewhat
> tall and unless you are careful to open them slowly smoke will roll out.
> After a short learning period I have found that the door glass stays
clean
> for weeks at a time.   The stove calls for a 7" class A but my local
sources
> only had 8"so I went with that. It may have cost me a little draft
strength
> but that is only a guess. I have been monitoring the top vent temps
and they
> can blow up to 150F after a hot fire has been going for a while.
With more
> moderate burns they run 110 to 130F and will still be at 90 to 95 in the
> morning. I have  a picture of the unit on the web site.  I am using the
> outside air. So far I'm happy with that decision.  My previous stove
was a
> Vermont Castings Resolute and I think this has been an improvement
for me.
> I do like the finished look of the stone and like to see the flames too.
> Probably the biggest downside is that a stove in the basement
provides more
> even heating through out the house.  But my bedrooms are up half a
floor and
> the heat goes up the hallway to them just fine.  So far the basement
has not
> gotten cold enough to freeze plumbing.  I also have the central heat
> thermostat in the greatroom where the fireplace is located and use the
> cooling setting to turn on the furnace fan the when the greatroom
gets over
> 72 degrees evening out the temps in the house.  I am calling my wood
use by
> the full 4 x 4 x 8' cord and I think most of the others are also.
>
>
>
> Gary Goetz
> S5579 SR 113
> Baraboo WI 53913
>  <mailto:goetz@...> goetz@...
> 608-356-7159
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of stewabbey
> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 5:08 PM
> To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [woodheat] Re: Now: How do you burn less than 2 cords
>
>
> Gary
> I'm curious about your zero clearance fireplace. Very few people in
> the group seem to have EPA fireplaces.  I'm planning on installing an
> EPA cert. one in my new house, also with masonry surrounding it for
> the look and the thermal mass. What type is yours? Are you happy with
> it? and do you find the masonry actually heats up?
> I was wondering if it would heat up because the unit is zero clearance.
>
> BTW I burn 8 face cords (are you guys burning 2 cords talking face
> cords or full cords?) per season and 250 gal oil running the stove
> every evening and when the temp is below about 20F I burn it overnight
> and during the day. My house is 2000sq. ft. 1963 with upgraded
> insulation. In the Montreal area. I find if I use the stove when it is
> warmer than 30F the house gets too warm and the wood is wasted, better
> just to use oil for the little it takes in those temps.
> I don't know how you folks in the warmer regions can burn your stove
> 24/7 without overheating. My stove is sized right for the house
> because it can barely keep up when the outside temp get to -10F and
> -20F, which is only a few days a year.
> Stewart
>
> --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "gary" <buildersupply@> wrote:
> >
> > How big's your house? How well insulated, how good are the windows?
> I am
> > heating 1300' in Wisconsin 100% wood on about 4 cords using an
> airtight zero
> > clearance fireplace.  I built about 1/2 ton of masonary around it
which
> > helps me hold heat. I am firing as needed since I am around the
> house. At
> > night on a cold night i feed at 10 pm and 2-3 AM house is still at
> 68 at 6
> > AM when I send my wife off to work. Fire will be down to coals but the
> > outlet air temp high in the fireplace is still above 90F.  I have an
> outside
> > combustion air inlet and I would like to be able to have that shut
down
> > after the fire dies because I think it really cools the stove fast
> when the
> > fire is near out. That is the part of a thermostatic air controll I
> don't
> > like, it goes to wide open after the  fire dies, which I feel
> encourages air
> > circulation up the chimney till the whole thing is cold..
> >
> >
> > Gary WI
> >
> > I'm curious how you guys get away with less than 2 cords a year.
> I've had a
> > very mild winter here in OH, but I'm still going through about 6
cords,
> > burning 24 / 7.  Is it that you don't always burn or ???..  I'm
> thinking 8
> > cords for a hard winter November - March.  Maybe my stove is just
> not that
> > efficient.  It's an older insert non EPA, it is loaded maybe 4 to 5
> times a
> > day.  It is large so it takes about 8 or 9 logs to fill it (4"x18"
> logs).
> > Am I doing something wrong?
> >
> >   Thanks!
> >   Chad
> >
> >
> >
> > samiamrd <taborl@> wrote:
> >   Your wood usage is about on par with mine here in NY.  Last year I
> > had 1.5 cords and ran out on March 15.  The wood supplementation at
> > night and weekends wiped out 43% of my NG usage.  After last year, I
> > uppped my collection to 2.5 cords with an expected .5 cords
> > remaining.  This year was not a normal year for our location.  We
> > had 20 days in January at or above 50 degrees.  Wood consumption is
> > down because I dont run the stove until it hits 40 degrees.  This
> > year with the upgrade of the main NG condensing furnace with
> > varriable burn and infinite drive fan system, we were able to drop
> > the ng usage to about 30% of the original usage with an average
> > house temp increase of 4 degrees(avg 72).  Not bad.
> >
> > As for movement of wood, I end up placing all of the wood in the
> > trunk and back seat of the 95 saturn(the old car).  A trailer would
> > be nice and I think that if we had the right car, it would make a
> > good addition.  The movement of the wood around the property is done
> > with a standard large wheel barrow.  The one wheel does create a
> > challange when it is stacked high.  The next thing that I will get
> > is the Sam's metal 4 wheel garden cart or the two wheel garden cart
> > (build yourself model).  That would increase the amount than can be
> > made with one trip.  One wheel barrow will go for 4 days in the
> > Avalon renier insert.
> >
> > The electricity usage is down but it could be less if I had a free
> > standing wood stove.  Having an insert almost dictates that you need
> > the fan to get the heat away from the fireplace.  Not the best
> > situation but still one that is much better than full central
> > furnace and you can really raise bread on the hearth.
> >
> > Sam
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "eringer2000_53188"
> > <albogrease@> wrote:
> > >
> > > After my first couple months burning wood in earnest, I am
> > pondering
> > > getting some sort of wheeled cart to bring the wood in from my
> > stack
> > > in the attached garage. Multiple loads with the canvas sling each
> > > day is getting rather old! On weekends I'm making maybe 4 trips
> > each
> > > day, about 6-7 pieces each trip. Feels like 40-50 pounds each time!
> > >
> > > Have been thinking about buying a trailer & you folks give me more
> > > reasons to do so! We live very near the Kettle Moraine state park
> > > here in Wisconsin & theres lots of fallen wood I can see from my
> > car
> > > on the drive home from work. Can't imagine how much there must be
> > > lieing around the actual forest! I'll be enquiring about buying a
> > > permit from the DNR this spring.
> > >
> > > I was involved in the maul discussion. I'm getting quite
> > profecient
> > > at splitting, well over 50% of my strikes split the target wood
> > now!
> > > Its a great feeling when that wood splits clean down the middle. I
> > > also learned not to push it when the wood won't split, I just set
> > > those pieces aside for overnight burn & go on to the next. Haven't
> > > been wasting anything either!  I pick up the scraps & shards of
> > wood
> > > to use as kinding to start my fires during the week.
> > >
> > > My first 2 energy bills have been drastically lower, last month it
> > > was $114 for a 2400 sq foot house! We're using aboiut 25% of the
> > gas
> > > we did same time last year & even the electricity usage is down
> > > around 10%!!!! Well within my target of reducing our usage by
> > 33%.
> > > Running low on wood now,only had about 1 1/2 cords at the start of
> > > the year. Will have to get in at least 2 cords next season & think
> > I
> > > can manage that from local wood fall, it just takes some effort on
> > > my part. i actually enjoy getting out there in the cold &
> > splitting
> > > & moving wood from the main pile to my staging rack in the garage!
> > > Put the radio on & listen to my favorite R&R oldies station!
> > >
> > > Love my Lopi Freedom insert, it works great. The tips on sucessful
> > > burning have been very helpful. Over the past 2 months I have
> > > learned how to get a good fire started, how to max the fire out to
> > > get the fan blowing, how to maximize an overnite burn etc.
> > >
> > > This mailing list has been so helpful. Also the woodheat.org
> > > website. Thanks to everyone for all the helpful hints & advice,
> > both
> > > directly from e-mails & on this list. It feels real good to open
> > > those energy bills now & know I have some control & not big
> > > energy!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The Greatest Rock & Roll of the Twentieth Century!!!
> > >
> > > http://www.live365.com/stations/albo60s
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, Keith McHugh <keithmchugh@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Gary,
> > > > Great idea's on splitting wood! Wow - that is the hardcore
> > method
> > > for
> > > > splitting wood!  How much wood do you split a year??  I use a
> > > homemade
> > > > wood splitter - but I still have the problems of bending over
> > > lifting
> > > > the wood.  I wear a back support for heavy lifting - that seems
> > to
> > > help
> > > > during splitting and moving wood - especially when lifting heavy
> > > pieces.
> > > >
> > > > When I split wood - I try to back a trailer with my tractor
> > right
> > > next
> > > > to the wood splitter - as soon as the wood is split - I throw it
> > > on the
> > > > trailer to be moved over to the wood pile - this way I do not
> > have
> > > to
> > > > pick the wood up again - it is at waist level on the trailer -
> > > makes it
> > > > easier to grab the wood - I can put 1 cord of wood on the
> > trailer
> > > in a
> > > > pile - it is a pretty big trailer.  I have tried to streamline
> > the
> > > > process - but I think that no matter what method you use - you
> > are
> > > > always bending over picking up the wood.
> > > >
> > > > How do you haul your wood??  I use a "Wood Chuck" dolly that has
> > > 20"
> > > > tires on it.  I can stack about 200 - 300lbs of wood on the
> > > dolly.  I
> > > > can easily roll it from my 5-6 cord wood stack upto my house -
> > > > approximately a 75 feet.  Then go down 6 stairs (which is not to
> > > bad to
> > > > navigate) with it into the basement where my woodstove is.  I
> > keep
> > > the
> > > > wood about 6 feet away from the stove.  I usually get a load per
> > > day if
> > > > it is really cold or snowing out.  If we have a nor easter
> > winter
> > > storm
> > > > I bring a few loads in to handle the storm.
> > > >
> > > > For my fireplace - I have a small wood stack ( last about 4
> > days)
> > > right
> > > > outside my front door - so I just use the tractor with the front
> > > end
> > > > loader to get the wood to that stack  - I always use tractor
> > > hydraulics
> > > > when I can in moving the wood - try to save the back.  But I
> > still
> > > have
> > > > to bend over to pickup the wood from the bottom of the wood
> > stack
> > > to put
> > > > it in the front end loader.   I hear your concerns on bending
> > over
> > > to
> > > > move wood.
> > > >
> > > > I guess I was looking to get the best ideas on hauling, moving,
> > > and
> > > > storing your wood.
> > > >
> > > > Keith
> > > >
> > > > For my fireplace - I have a wood thormole2004 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > A while back there was quite a discussion by those of us who
> > > split
> > > > > wood with a maul. I've been heating solely with wood for 24
> > > years,
> > > > > cutting, hauling, and splitting what I've needed from my land.
> > A
> > > > > chainsaw, wheelbarrow, and maul are my main tools. As I've
> > gotten
> > > > > older the constant bending to pick up split wood was getting
> > to
> > > my
> > > > > back. I found a way to utlilze some old tires which does make
> > > the job
> > > > > a bit easier.
> > > > >   My splitting block is a 16" diameter round 20" high piece of
> > > knot
> > > > > filled beech placed on the ground to split on. I've stacked
> > four
> > > old
> > > > > car tires on top of each other around the splitting block so
> > the
> > > > > tires come up about a foot above the splitting block. The wood
> > > to be
> > > > > split sits on the block surrounded by the tires. After the
> > wood
> > > is
> > > > > struck, the tires keep the split pieces of wood on the block
> > and
> > > high
> > > > > enough to reach without bending over. They also work to lean
> > > uneven
> > > > > wood against and help to catch any stray maul strikes,
> > > preventing the
> > > > > maul head from coming close to feet and legs. In order to keep
> > > the
> > > > > tires in place during splitting I tie three legnths of rope
> > > aound all
> > > > > four tires. It saves a lot of bending and actually makes the
> > > jobs a
> > > > > lot faster.
> > > > >   This may be a common form of splitting, but I haven't seen it
> > > > > discussed, so thought I'd offer it up. I enjoy the site and am
> > > always
> > > > > finding something to learn.
> > > > > Gary
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Check THE woodheat web site at  http://www.woodheat.org
> > > > > To receive no more messages email:  woodheat-
> > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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--- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, monte bloyd <mbloyd@...> wrote:
>
> Solar collectors can also feed the tank I think.
>
>
> Monte
> On Feb 28, 2006, at 2:54 PM, gary wrote:
>

I would recommend that you spend some time at: www.homepower.com.

Buy some back issues they have run a series of articles on domestic
hot water (DHW), space heating with air, storage systems like your
hot water tank.  I am willing to bet that solar can do most of your
heating.  With wood and electric filling in.

For example look at www.thermomax.com.  I just picked one
advertisment from Homepower to illustrate what is available.

Do you have any solar contractors near you?  Since you have such
cheap power solar electric may not be an option for you.

For those other people who are complaining about their electric
rates.  I have a solution for you Solar Electric Panels.  Rebates
vary from state-to-state.  Check locally and if available Jump on it.

I live in CA in PG&E country last year I screwed up again for two
years in a row.  My electric bill was $0.0, that is nada, zippo,
zero, etc.  That means I gave credits back to PG&E not a wise thing
to do.

I heat my house with NG, wood - new Avalon Perfectfit F/P insert,
and electricity.  I also drive and all electric car, a Toyota
Rav4EV.  No it is NOT a hybrid, it uses NO gasoline, I drive on
electricity stored in the battery pack, and yes I charge it at home
overnight.  I net metering, that is where the excess summer
generation is credited to my account that I then use in winter.  So
that means for hauling my butt around town I buy NO GASOLINE either.

I generate approx. 5,200,000 wh per year.  My current total on the
inverter is 9,583.200 kwh.

-- Brandy

P.S. I push solar power, electric cars, and wood heat in case you
have not guessed.

My previous stove, a Regency Hearth Heater EPA reburner, required me to
split my wood to pretty small size.  I have since bought a new, much
larger burner.  This thing will just burn up the small pieces I have
from the Regency.  I need to start splitting into larger chunks to
increase the burn time.

The question is, will the larger pieces dry slower than the small
ones?  If we work on the premise that wood is a collection of small
straws, then it stands to reason that the majority of the drying occurs
at the ends, regardless of the diameter of the pieces.  If so, then the
only variable is the length of the pieces, not the diameter.  Does this
logic stand up?  Or will the big pieces of green wood I currently have
drying not be ready in time for the coming winter?


stu...